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Thread: Permission to coach.....

  1. #1
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    Cool Permission to coach.....

    Okay I have a gripe! And I know I'm not the only one!

    Should you have permission to coach..? I'm not talking about certification here I mean permission from an individual..

    i have in my early days posted videos of a trip and had 'tips' posted in reply to my blog...at no point have I asked for advise so why do people think it's ok to give it?

    If I ask for tips or "can you watch my video and tell what I'm doing wrong" then I expect tips and advise and Constructive critics however if I do not give you permission to critique my padding then what gives people the right to do so..? This is a question not a rant by the way... I would like your thoughts...?

    Prime example would be your bobbing down a river and another group is there also, you see a dodge line or a bad choice...? We all have opinions but what gives you the right to voice it with that individual...? If it was one of your group maybe of close friends then this would be possibly acceptable I know in my OC1 circle of friends it certainly is, normally whilst they laugh at my swim but I expect it because in that environment I look up to everyone for advise and tips and they are all aware of my strive for perfection...
    However if someone who didn't know me just walked over and said my boof was crap or I didn't use the correct stroke I would react very differently..

    i am seriously interested in your views on this.. Is it just me who gets a little upset when random people think they have a right to openly critique mine or others technique or give me pointers online?

    Or should you have permission to coach...

    maybe be I see this differently as I am not a coach I'm not a bad paddler but I'm not a coach... I could teach a novice to paddle and could give plenty of hard learnt tips however I'm not a coach and unless asked would not dream of giving any advise to a fellow paddler..

    take it away folks!

    And please don't turn this into a fight... It's an open question and everyone is entitled to there own opinions!
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  2. #2
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    I generally welcome hints and tips but then I'm not as experienced as you Mat.
    But I can see where your coming from, having taken the wrong line you already know you've made the wrong choice and with high insight you know River left would of been better. So perhaps the last thing you want is a " oh would've been better off doing it this way!"from a Harry Enfield character.
    Having said that the couple of days I spent with you and the gang in the summer was educating for me! But as I recall I did ask for informal " coaching" before hand .

  3. #3
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    Would you prefer a more generic.. Nice video.. over and over? Would that make you feel better? There is no law that says you must post a video. Perhaps if you don't want all sorts of feedback it might be best to share in private.
    "Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing." WS-prophecy about internet postings.

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    First, perhaps we need to define coaching to establish the difference between coaching and advice.

    In my view, coaching is something structured - whether you use one of the daft acronyms or not there should be some kind of explanation, some kind of showing how to do it, opportunity to practice usually with guidance and some kind of feedback during or following the practice. There is also an implication of progressive development.

    Giving out advice whether on the riverbank or the internet is at best just the feedback part.

    You don't get coaching without prior arrangement so what you are really asking about is free advice.....

    If only I could count the number of times I have chatted with someone after the event and found out that they had overlooked something obvious to me and would have appreciated the advice at the time!

    Personally I think holding back is bad for everyone, but sometimes you might need to be subtle in your approach.

    If I see a bunch of cocky teenagers doing something in a way that has big scope for improvement, I'm not just going to walk over and tell them what they are doing wrong - at best they will think they know better and ignore me, at worst they may become abusive. A more subtle approach is required, one might be to go up and compliment them on their degree of success on the gnarly line, then drop in that I'm a wuss and would tend to run another easier line. If they are getting nailed and hadn't realized there is an easier line, they will probably then ask me about it....

    It's harder to take a subtle approach on a forum, but which do you prefer - sycophants patting you on the back however well or badly you did, or some free advice that might provide a chance to think about things in a different way that may lead to personal development? Of course you need to sort out the good from the bad - not everyone that offers advice has the right advice for you, some people may even have no idea what they are talking about at all (I hope that's not me!).

    The bottom line is, if you put it on the internet, people will comment, some comments may be un-asked for advice we can either live with it, or not use the internet.

    And just to be sporting, and as a warmer upper for hopefully meeting up after xmas, I will just infect this forum with THE photo. Feel free to offer me any advice you like



    My Ocoee is yellow, we can perhaps work on replicating THE photo....????

    How hard can it be?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowcanoe View Post
    Would you prefer a more generic.. Nice video.. over and over? Would that make you feel better? There is no law that says you must post a video. Perhaps if you don't want all sorts of feedback it might be best to share in private.
    Nice point however if a video is posted to accompany a blog of say a trad boat river trip...it's not there for you to give tips on it's there to support the Blog... Or are we know saying that if there is no video but only text because you cannot see the paddlers actually in action you would just say "hey nice blog what a great trip" but if a video popped up 10 posts down you would regret that comment as you want to tell us all how terrible we paddle?
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimW View Post
    First, perhaps we need to define coaching to establish the difference between coaching and advice.

    In my view, coaching is something structured - whether you use one of the daft acronyms or not there should be some kind of explanation, some kind of showing how to do it, opportunity to practice usually with guidance and some kind of feedback during or following the practice. There is also an implication of progressive development.

    Giving out advice whether on the riverbank or the internet is at best just the feedback part.

    You don't get coaching without prior arrangement so what you are really asking about is free advice.....

    If only I could count the number of times I have chatted with someone after the event and found out that they had overlooked something obvious to me and would have appreciated the advice at the time!

    Personally I think holding back is bad for everyone, but sometimes you might need to be subtle in your approach.

    If I see a bunch of cocky teenagers doing something in a way that has big scope for improvement, I'm not just going to walk over and tell them what they are doing wrong - at best they will think they know better and ignore me, at worst they may become abusive. A more subtle approach is required, one might be to go up and compliment them on their degree of success on the gnarly line, then drop in that I'm a wuss and would tend to run another easier line. If they are getting nailed and hadn't realized there is an easier line, they will probably then ask me about it....

    It's harder to take a subtle approach on a forum, but which do you prefer - sycophants patting you on the back however well or badly you did, or some free advice that might provide a chance to think about things in a different way that may lead to personal development? Of course you need to sort out the good from the bad - not everyone that offers advice has the right advice for you, some people may even have no idea what they are talking about at all (I hope that's not me!).

    The bottom line is, if you put it on the internet, people will comment, some comments may be un-asked for advice we can either live with it, or not use the internet.

    And just to be sporting, and as a warmer upper for hopefully meeting up after xmas, I will just infect this forum with THE photo. Feel free to offer me any advice you like



    My Ocoee is yellow, we can perhaps work on replicating THE photo....????
    Coaching...free advise...? We can beat about the bush regarding the term I am thinking off I would side more with personal dialect than definition bouncing, you are right, if it's on the net it's fair game however I still do not see where if a video is posted to show a point not related to paddling ability that the video would then become bait for those who love to show off how knowledgeable they are can start offering coaching tips... If I'm on a river and we are chatting about a certain line and clearly your missing something very obvious I would offer my opinion in the hope you may see it and take it as your own..as you say a subtle approach however, approaching an individual whom you have no knowledge of there personally development and unwelcomly giving free advise is another matter regardless of subtlety surely..?

    the forum environment does indeed encapsulate the very worst meaning of every comment, people do not see the jovial reasoning just the harsh truth..weather or not it was intended..and indeed as those offering said advise have little knowledge of that individual or their development the individual has absolutely no idea of the validity of the comment...

    so with that in mind why put it up? Again if you ask for advise on a subject people will give freely but just because you know better does not give a right for that to be passed on in public forum when it's not asked for...?
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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    Oh and clearly I see nothing wrong with that photo I have ran many drops in that fashion....however the yellow boat could be the issue....
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  8. #8

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    Hi Mat,

    Do you not think you are being a tiny bit precious about this? (to avoid any confusion, that was said with tongue firmly in cheek).

    But (or was it???) (er, yes it was), I think you have to accept that by putting it out there for all to see, you will get all sorts of responses - whether solicited or not. Perhaps 95% of the posters on this site will take all posts in the spirit they are intended, but the 5%...

    I question whether those who wish to demonstrate their "knowledge" in a public forum are actually the ones who "know better".

    You do have to ask yourself, would a competent coach actually try to offer coaching/tips/advice off the back of a few pics/vids on a forum, when no advice has been requested? We know that there are many hugely experienced and well respected coaches who read and post to this forum on a regular basis, but can you find an example of those guys offering unsolicited advice?

    To answer your original question, I agree that no-one should provide "coaching" without being asked to coach, but that's just not going to happen in the real world (internet!) where it is so easy to "show off" if that's your inclination.

    I reckon you hit the nail on the head:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    ...if it's on the net it's fair game...bait for those who love to show off how knowledgeable they are...
    Although, perhaps that should read "how knowledgeable they think they are"?

    Should we trust information gained from forum discussions? Surely not, without some way of checking or validating it's accuracy. I know I have unintentionally posted inaccurate information in the past - that's just life, we sometimes get things wrong. So should we trust those who offer advice where it is neither wanted nor needed (or even if it may be needed)? To me, unsolicited advice from persons I neither know nor know of, will be immediately and completely ignored. That is my choice, and I take the risk associated with that choice.

    On the flip side, does this mean we shouldn't speak up if we feel something should be said? Certainly not, but accept that what we say is likely to be ignored or questioned.

    For clarity, this post consists of opinion only, I do not claim to be correct or accurate in any views expressed and all figures are 100% made-up.

    Cheers

    OD

    ...if only life was that simple...

  9. #9
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    I recall one of my first SOTP group paddles, when I had almost no experience. A very good paddler, and regular poster on here, simply asked nicely "is it OK to make suggestions" when watching me making hard work of a manoeuvre. "Absolutely!" was my reply, and so my learning process was boosted by a very well meaning experienced paddler...and has been ever since. OK, it was obvious I was new to it, but the low key,friendly, trying to help approach made all the difference.

    Its a little different on the forum, but I honestly believe that the vast majority of pointers are purely well intended.

    Just occasionally, I have thought "cheeky sod", when some comment is made, but its forgotten within minutes.

    Interesting discussion. All of us are different in how we give and recieve advice.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Dog View Post

    Although, perhaps that should read "how knowledgeable they think they are"?


    OD
    Oh so it's not only paddling but grammar now...!
    Last edited by Mat; 4th-December-2013 at 07:08 AM.
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  11. #11
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    Some fantastic views of opinion so far.....

    i have in the past had coaches post up and also PM after seeing videos etc.... However only ever once from one I trust and that advise was not to coach more a suggestion of coaching required for a course I had already booked onto (they were the provider) so that was reassuring in a sense i had indeed booked onto a worthwhile course...

    Sadley the others just fell into the standard 'cheeky sod' category and set to remind me not to use there services in the future...

    this is is indeed a interesting topic and I sopose mainly because it falls purely into personally acceptance... I am very open to criticism however I would not take it for any old soul...I need to respect that individual as a sourceof genuine information..

    Mal's experience of "is it OK to make suggestions" is exactly the purpose of this thread! Politely asking if you can indeed offer tips, advise,coaching will give me a huge sense of respect for that person as they have indeed shown me the very same thing...he gave permission to coach and duly benefitted from it.
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    I recall one of my first SOTP group paddles, when I had almost no experience. A very good paddler, and regular poster on here, simply asked nicely "is it OK to make suggestions" when watching me making hard work of a manoeuvre. "Absolutely!" was my reply, and so my learning process was boosted by a very well meaning experienced paddler...and has been ever since. OK, it was obvious I was new to it, but the low key,friendly, trying to help approach made all the difference.

    Its a little different on the forum, but I honestly believe that the vast majority of pointers are purely well intended.

    Just occasionally, I have thought "cheeky sod", when some comment is made, but its forgotten within minutes.

    Interesting discussion. All of us are different in how we give and recieve advice.
    spot on Mal - I'm not the sort that would ask for advise on first couple of SOTP meets, but it was generously offered and accepted and I was grateful (still am in fact, still plenty to learn ... Although, would now be happy to ask as I know my fellow paddlers rather than the rag-bag bunch of strangers I met in a car-park one evening!).

    However, that is different from posts on a forum. As others have said, for some, forums are just an excuse to say how great they are - others are genuinely well meaning - and ultimately knowledge and knowledge of said posters own knowledge vary immensely. That is the nature of the beast where you have an open forum that anyone can join and post.

    as I have said to my kids, there's all sorts of info/advice on the net - the skill is in learning how to use it! Select what you want or can verify...ignore the rest.

    cheers

    BMJ

    ps - this is just my opinion.... I don't want your thoughts as to whether I'm right or not
    If I could only paddle like a doggie oughta paddle

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    Mat,

    my take on this is that once you have put the thing on the web then you are in fact inviting comment. You are hoping for the 'Great blog' type comments but t'interweb doesn't filter for you. You have to do that for yourself. If there is a comment you don't like or the comment falls into your 'cheeky git' category then you need to apply your own filter and ignore it. Move on and read the other great comments.

    For me, I would be happy for ANY information which might advance my paddling. But, like any info found on the web if I feel it is of questionable value then I ignore it.

    Don't be too precious, apply filters but for my sake keep telling me where I am going wrong

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    Hi Mat

    Interesting post. I don't mind receiving advice, comments, suggestions, opinions, insults etc...... from my fellow paddlers. Just depends on the way they are given and whether I can give the same back. I see this as banter from kindred spirits. Even well meant, but slightly patronising advice doesn't really wind me up too much.

    A few things that do slightly annoy me are;

    Unsolicited comments from non paddlers questioning whether I am allowed to paddle on that river, especially when they are not even fishing but walking along the bank and worse when they are just visitors to the area.

    Posters on this site that ask for advice and then get ar*y when they don't like the advice; feel insulted that some of the replies seem to make assumptions about them (how couldn't they); or get annoyed when the thread even slightly veers from the specific point in queston.

    Apart from that I am pretty laid back on this issue.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    Oh so it's not only paddling but grammar now...!
    Absolutely! If you can't even get the grammar right, your paddling MUST be beyond help.
    Last edited by Orange Dog; 4th-December-2013 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Bad grammar

    ...if only life was that simple...

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    Not quite on topic, but the "coaching, advising" thing on the water as the adviser.I don't claim to be a coach, although many moons ago I was a BCU Senior Instructor. When on easy trips one often sees newcomers, either with bad habits, or an obvious "hole" in their knowledge or technique. It depends, to an extent, on the persona of said person, but I might be moved to ask if they were open to a few tips, or tricks of the trade.

    It would depend on their response as to what I might do next.

    Unless a post invited comments, I'd go no further than "super Blog"

    However, Mat, your on the water activities, your "character", and the stuff you post, (not least the Minnow tag) does rather invite responses beyond super blog.

    Impcanoe

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    I appreciate the informal coaching and advice I've got out on SOTP trips.

    Most memorable being; "Don't grab the f'ing gunwales and keep f'ing paddling!" when shooting a weir.

    However, if you're experienced enough to know what you've done wrong and what you should have done instead, I imagine unsolicited advice could get pretty tiresome. Fortunately for me, I'm many years from that stage!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    However, Mat, your on the water activities, your "character", and the stuff you post, (not least the Minnow tag) does rather invite responses beyond super blog.

    Impcanoe
    Indeed that is so yes...however I don't seem to have come across this unwanted coaching within my SWWC paddling... maybe it is indeed that I do require the odd tip here and there or maybe its because the sport is so tight knit that we all have a mutual respect for each others choice to paddle little boats with a single blade thus allowing a little more freedom of speach...

    However Trad boat seems very different..

    Again I think many are saying the same things.. if its face to face then we generally would ask for permission to advise and always air on the side of diplomacy and tact however online we can openly point out mistakes without to much care for peoples feelings as after all we are but a fake name and an avatar..........? sound good so far?
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  19. #19

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    Is this anything to do with the video I posted last night. If it is, I thought it was a little cheeky too, especially as one of the paddlers on the Vid is a bloody good paddler and the people in question don't really come on the Forum that much, so who are they giving the advice too.

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    Is this something to do with all the comments on your awsome 'boof face' Mat?

    I have always taken well meaning advice as just that, well meaning. Often it is good advice but it's only later on that you are able to recognise and appreciate the difference between the good advice and less so. Sometimes it is much later when I am in a similar situation that I suddenly realise what they meant and the penny drops. Overall if someone can be bothered to try to pass on something they feel may be helpful then I would always be grateful to them for taking the time to do so. If the comment is online from someone I don't know, not relevant to the post and just an ego trip from someone who can't keep their lips or keyboard still, I wouldn't hesitate in telling them that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by outrage Dave. View Post
    Is this anything to do with the video I posted last night. If it is, I thought it was a little cheeky too, especially as one of the paddlers on the Vid is a bloody good paddler and the people in question don't really come on the Forum that much, so who are they giving the advice too.
    That may of been the icing on the cake dude yes!
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by outrage Dave. View Post
    Is this anything to do with the video I posted last night.
    I assumed the same thing Dave. The context of the vid was to give an idea of some of the rivers you'd mentioned earlier and jeff all to do with the actual paddling, so I agree that the "advice" was cheeky, misguided, and ultimately utterly useless as it was not even directed toward the right people.

    BTW thanks for the post - will possibly look to set up a Lune trip sometime in the New Year if you are interested?

    Cheers

    OD

    ...if only life was that simple...

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    Ha my boof face!!! I had forgotten about that
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Dog View Post
    I assumed the same thing Dave. The context of the vid was to give an idea of some of the rivers you'd mentioned earlier and jeff all to do with the actual paddling, so I agree that the "advice" was cheeky, misguided, and ultimately utterly useless as it was not even directed toward the right people.

    BTW thanks for the post - will possibly look to set up a Lune trip sometime in the New Year if you are interested?

    Cheers

    OD
    Yes I would be interested in a trip on the Lune, It's an excellent bit of River.

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    It's just the nature of forums Mat ...

    a few written words can be taken the wrong way; sometimes things come across a little on the blunt side and chances are if your face to face with someone it's easier to work out if they are just trying to be helpful or an arrogant know it all

    The thing with giving advice is you can have a good understanding of the theory but the the teaching skills to get that point across are not something you can learn; that's a gift that some people have and others don't and never will have ...
    Your very lucky that you have got into OC1 paddling at a time when Kelvin has set the benchmark and he's a very rare example of someone who has both skill sets
    I don't even know the guy but I can feel the vibe he plants in his students and paddling buddies having paddled with friends of his ... Sally is another example she's got that special ingredient you all seem to buzz off each other enjoy I only wish I'd found paddling years ago

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    Happy to give advice on horticultural matters...with 33 years of professional experience under my belt, I feel confident that I would be giving someone the correct info.

    With only 7/8 years of paddling experience (as a lesiure activity).......No way would I give someone any advice...I still have lots to learn.

  27. #27

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    Your first post asks a number of questions.

    If I ask for tips or "can you watch my video and tell what I'm doing wrong" then I expect tips and advice and constructive critics, however, if I do not give you permission to critique my padding then what gives people the right to do so..?
    This one has already been answered by some and maybe accepted by you. The answer is that we have, in this country, a freedom of expression. You will see this actively engaged on sites like YouTube where people will happily endorse or slag off a video without any qualms. Same on the forum I’m afraid, you put it out there, it gets comments.

    Or should you have permission to coach... maybe be I see this differently as I am not a coach
    This point raises for me the question ‘who is a coach’? You mentioned certification, but is this what makes a coach? Jim mentions a distinction between coaching and offering advice. But is someone who offers a structured course of advice actually coaching? Maybe an experienced paddler has plenty of information to impart but no coach training, is he potentially coaching?

    All that said, I’ll go along with your general thrust that offering coaching or even advice can be downright rude if not offered either in a correct spirit or without some form of agreement from the recipient.

    I’ll toss in an example, because we like that on this forum. My friends and I were on the Upper Wye, levels fairly low and we got to the rapid above the railway bridge, we met a chap offering safety to his group who were running the rapid. He had tied a rope to a tree and round his waist, he had no quick release. We could have told him he was a fool and explained how wrong he was. What we said was something like ‘don’t you have a quick release on that rope’. Fortunately he didn’t have to jump in but hopefully he understood the reason behind our question.

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    Anyone who's paddled with me knows that I need as much advice as I can get! But I was once on a non SOPT trip a few years back with a chap, who from the moment I stepped into the boat till the end of the trip ......(about 12 miles worth on the trent) did nothing but "coach me" spoilt the whole trip for me on what was a very passive stretch of the river.
    I will say this though, regarding safety in construction there is a "don't walk by" ethos.......if you see something dangerous its your duty to point it out. Seems to be a good ethos for canoeing or life in general. Although I dont think this was the intention of the original post which was about being given tips on technique from "experts"
    Recently on a trip on the Derwent, Orange Dog told me not to recross the current with Pipster hanging on to the back of the boat (he was having a dip) eminently sensible advice that was needed at the time. But the only other time on that trip he offered advice was when I asked for it regarding eddie angle.
    The worst day canoeing is better than the best day working

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    what about the old ethos of
    "lets get the hell out of here before we have to rescue someone...."
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by mayobren View Post
    Anyone who's paddled with me knows that I need as much advice as I can get! But I was once on a non SOPT trip a few years back with a chap, who from the moment I stepped into the boat till the end of the trip ......(about 12 miles worth on the trent) did nothing but "coach me" spoilt the whole trip for me on what was a very passive stretch of the river.
    I will say this though, regarding safety in construction there is a "don't walk by" ethos.......if you see something dangerous its your duty to point it out. Seems to be a good ethos for canoeing or life in general. Although I dont think this was the intention of the original post which was about being given tips on technique from "experts"
    Recently on a trip on the Derwent, Orange Dog told me not to recross the current with Pipster hanging on to the back of the boat (he was having a dip) eminently sensible advice that was needed at the time. But the only other time on that trip he offered advice was when I asked for it regarding eddie angle.
    Sorry Bren I'm going to give you some unwanted advice Don't forget the Bacon is weekend

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    what about the old ethos of
    "lets get the hell out of here before we have to rescue someone...."
    Thats my personal philosophy.............especially reserved for when you don't like the geezer who needs rescueing
    The worst day canoeing is better than the best day working

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    a lot also depends on how it's put across.
    if it's together with a comment on the blog or video and a by the way, did you try/know/think of doing this-or-that it's a completely different story to preaching from a know-it-all pedestal.

    i think we can learn a lot from each other and if nobody ever spoke up, nobody would benefit from it, either. obviously, if somebody doesn't want to change their ways it needs to be respected, too. that's probably easier in person. on the internet, as soon as you post something it's there for the public to prey upon. and if a piece of advice is given it stays on the page pretty much forever, whether it's appreciated or not.

    so as far as i'm concerned:
    for those who have something to share, keep it coming but keep it friendly and constructive.
    for those at the receiving end, it's the internet - read what you want, skip the rest and don't take it all too personal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pipster3 View Post
    Sorry Bren I'm going to give you some unwanted advice Don't forget the Bacon is weekend
    I fully support this sound, but unsolicited advice

    ...if only life was that simple...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    what about the old ethos of
    "lets get the hell out of here before we have to rescue someone...."
    Brilliant! Heard it many times. Think I have said it a couple too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mayobren View Post
    from the moment I stepped into the boat till the end of the trip did nothing but "coach me" spoilt the whole trip for me on what was a very passive stretch of the river.
    Well I'll keep me trap shut next time then

  36. #36

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    I was in the dark ages a BCU coach, RYA Sailing & RYA windsurf instructor..

    Now a swimming teacher with my own methods as used by only me in the UK..

    I just can't help 'coaching'....

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    Quote Originally Posted by wavecloud View Post

    I just can't help 'coaching'....
    Some people are like that....

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus2 View Post
    Some people are like that....
    What, highly experienced?

  39. #39

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    People do pay highly to listen to my crap

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    I should think if you put anything online for joe public to see you should expect comments, whether they're based on technique or anything else.
    Rich




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    I am aware of the hazards of offering unsolicited advice, even when it is offered with the best of intentions. I have sometimes made a suggestion or two to a friend or acquaintance I was paddling with when I repeatedly saw them doing something that was clearly not working and there was an obvious alternative that was more effective. As an example, I have sometimes paddled fairly easy whitewater with paddlers who had quite a bit of experience in flat water paddling, but little experience working with current. One of the most common things I have seen such paddlers do is to try to eddy out by placing a very weak bow draw somewhere in proximity to the eddy line without driving the boat across the eddy line. After seeing such a paddler simply spin on the eddy line and proceed backwards downriver along it, I might ask them if I could offer a suggestion.

    The only time I have offered advice to strangers is when I am aware of a known hazard downstream, or I see them about to take a line that I know to be rather dangerous and then I will usually preface my comments with an "Are you aware ...". But I think there can be times in which one is obligated to speak up when one sees someone about to do something that constitutes a clear threat to life and there is good reason to believe that they are unaware and unprepared for the consequences, such as if one sees a paddler with a recreational kayak and no spray skirt about to put on a moderately difficult whitewater stream in flood.

    On March 12 1995 a friend and I canoed the Lehigh River in Pennsylvania from White Haven to Rockport. The river was running about 2000 cfs (high) and the water temperature was 35 degrees. The first rapid (normally a Class II+) was a solid Class III+. It so happens that we put on immediately after a group of nine people who attempted to run the river in 2 inexpensive swimming pool type rafts. They had no protective clothing (some were in jeans), no proper PFDs, and only one had any whitewater experience. He had rafted an easier stretch of the Lehigh six times, always in warmer weather and lower water. The result was predictable. One raft with five passengers capsized in the first rapid. Two girls ages 11 and 14 disappeared in the water. An older woman, age 22, who could not swim jumped in the water from the other raft to try to save the girls and nearly drowned as well, but was rescued. My friend and I saw evidence of the accident immediately after putting on but by that time the survivors were off the water. We became aware of the two missing girls very shortly thereafter from search and rescue personnel who landed a helicopter on the train tracks adjacent to the river and we paddled slowly downstream looking for the girls, or their bodies, but did not see them. They were found a day and a half later.

    Had we gotten to the put in a half hour earlier we would have seen them getting ready to put on. If we had done so and I had refrained from making any comment I would certainly have reason to regret my inaction.

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    Mat
    please give me advice and coaching when you see fit!
    Sam

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    I think I left something implied but not said before....

    There is a difference between coaching, advise, and smart alec comments........

    I happened to be online at the time Mat started the thread so spotted the direct correlation with the comment that got him thinking down this line. I actually don't think it was a smart alec comment and from some pretty in depth technical discussions I have had online with the commentor about other stuff, I'd say his opinion is generally worth considering when it is offered. I don't think the intention was to show us that he knows more than any of us, I think that like me he just happens to enjoy a good technical discussion. I can see how the way it was worded with a disclaimer could be interpreted as cheeky though.

    We are an international forum, some things are said differently in other parts of the world, heck some things are said differently in other parts of the town. Adds to the spice!

    Now, here is a new thought - make a clip public on youtube and allow anyone to comment and see where you get......
    I wonder how often I've seen some great inspirational paddling in videos with comments in langauge I won't repeat in this family friendly forum making the paddlers out to be idiots, dangerous, stupid etc. etc .etc.
    At least we do it differently to that

    Jim
    (hoping for normal service to resume soon!)

    How hard can it be?

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    But the context of that entire thread had nothing to do with paddling well on G2/3... Some paddlers on there are very accoished that I have met in the flesh all talking about runnable rivers....what does sitting to far back on a drop have to do with any of that....?

    Indeed that comment did spur the writing however I have spoken of starting this thread for some time now.. Yesterday simply reminded me that it needed discussing..

    Simply put I would not make any assumption of someone untill I had met them in the flesh... Some people come across as arrogant and self centred online for a number of reasons however when in the flesh a few may surprise you! Those who I never see after plenty of invites in the flesh or in a canoe IMO paddle the computer chair too much!

    As with many forums there are people whom can run searches faster than I can swim down G4and can come up with very detailed answers to a subject they have absolutely no knowledge of.......that is as has been said above the nature of this electronic forum world..
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimW View Post
    You should keep the canoe between you and the water.

    Am I coaching?

    I've had a lot of advice in my time (I must look like I need it). Most of it has been beneficial to me, some I think more for the "coach" and some has been of the style written about here where we're best forgetting the comment. But I also find it hard to let go of some comments once I've heard them. I think you have two options:

    1. Call them out on the advice (how poor it is, unnecessary, etc)
    2. Ignore it and move on.

    Nothing you can do will stop people saying/writing advice - we're all giving you advice here on how to handle unwanted advice.

    Personal account (related but not on the main thread):
    I had someone shout "You're either really good or really bad!" at me when I was paddling into a very strong wind on Loch Lochy. I had trouble letting that go because my pride tells me I'm not very bad and my humility tells me I'm not really good. I think I might still be struggling with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimW View Post
    Now, here is a new thought - make a clip public on youtube and allow anyone to comment and see where you get......
    It's astonishing how many conversations reduce to racist or Nazi calling in just a few comments on YouTube. Or is it just the hunting videos I watch sometimes?
    WARNING: Water is often very cold and drowning is a real risk. Seek training or guides to enjoy the sport if you are in any doubt about your abilities. Be safe, have fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhofmann View Post
    It's astonishing how many conversations reduce to racist or Nazi calling in just a few comments on YouTube. Or is it just the hunting videos I watch sometimes?
    Nope,most of the fighting arts videos end up the same.Oh and dont forget the homophobic comments that always crop up.

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    My videos are that crap no bugger watches them
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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    I'll keep quiet then!

    Actually I don't mind folks coaching me, it's better than seeing that look on their face when they know whats going wrong and you don't...especially if what you're doing wrong results in a swim or upside down moment

    ...and if you post that vid of your paddling trip and you're missing the eddies, swimming, getting a beating in that sticky hole etc etc you can rest assured that somewhere there is a coach with a beer in their hand having a right good laugh!

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    But there the only videos I can make....
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    My videos are that crap no bugger watches them
    Your vids are awesome........you just don't post enough of them on here!
    Last edited by mayobren; 4th-December-2013 at 09:23 PM.
    The worst day canoeing is better than the best day working

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    You are very right-


    Here you go... Just don't say anything negative






    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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    Are you holding that paddle right?

    Cracking Vids!
    Last edited by mayobren; 4th-December-2013 at 09:40 PM.
    The worst day canoeing is better than the best day working

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    Not in this one...after I snapped the T grip off!!

    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

  56. #56

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    Hi All,
    I would guess there aren't many do's and don'ts in the coaching world of Mr Kim Bull but one piece of advice Kim gave me a number of years ago that I make an effort to stick to today is 'don't coach anyone without their permission' My opinion is that I would find it impossible to know how a person has got to that point in their paddling from a photo or video clip and what their needs are, if any.. Comments that seem technically sound and appropriate are often way off the mark with respect to timing.. Just my thoughts guys..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    You are very right-

    Here you go... Just don't say anything negative
    I'm sorry, I just can't help myself......

    I just can't understand how anyone that paddles a canoe could like that kind of music.....
    But I guess you would think the same about my tastes

    Seriously though, every time I see one of your videos it makes me want to paddle with you guys!

    Now I think about it, the Clough/Rawthey can't be much more than a couple of hours away - I need to watch the meets forum more!

    How hard can it be?

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    Nice vids Mat, the river rawthey one is great , you probably have been asked else where , what camera do you use ( for basic not to high def for quick load times , would basic go pro be good ) , does it take much in terms of editing software , and how do you add the tracks ( and get around any copy write ),
    Keep putting your trips on here,

    cheers

    Tomo

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    I'm pretty open to musical genre Jim... However that just goes with WW..

    tommo it's filmed on a gopro 3B however as I reduce the file down for upload etc there is no real worth in buying a Black edition if it's just for YouTube etc.. I edit these on movie maker (windows free download) and it's all pretty straight forward once you get the hang of it... I simply cut crop and split my various vids from throughout the day and merge them, I always crop the shot down to remove that fish eye a little... Sometimes it works great.. Others just make everything look small..

    music is just added in that phase, I always credit the music and leave statement to them explaining I hope my video does it justice, most sport related videos if in keeping with the tune will have a 3rd party acknowledgement and they will then advertise it for sale on your video page..

    Mat
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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    I feel Kelvins comment really sums this tread up for me, that statement really does encapsulate my Opening post,
    and for those that may say a coach would not give "free advise" because they would require payment before doing so have never paddled with Kelvin! With a statement like that coming from an individual whom has such a wide base of knowledge in the sport makes it even more clear regarding comments passed by a fleeting glance on a forum...

    as has been said, that side to a forum has been and will always be uncontrollable, folk will always want to stick there 2p in when it is possibly not wanted or required and we will all continue to skip over those posts or occasionally flare a little in revolt... But for myself and by the look of it many of the posters here we will continue to view and respond in a manner that is in line with the actual thread in question be it for advise or simply a method to bring enjoyment to others reading,

    on the river is indeed different, firstly we have face to face contact, if it's a bad move or bad line then I don't see that as my place to pass comment...I do those enough myself however if I'm at the put in and I see a family getting on the top of a G4 run in inflatables I would naturally engage in conversation about the river ahead..most certainly not in a patronising manner as I have no idea who these people are but if I can leave them at the put in with an idea of the rapids to come ahead via a general chat i hope they will make there own decision as to weather or not there are able to run it... You cannot teach stupid neither can you beat it out of them decisions In life are personal and although inside you want to screen at them for being so stupid and irresponsible it clearly is not my place!
    Mat

    Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own Canoe....

    www.UKhammocks.co.uk

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