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Thread: Capsize Recovery Device

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Joe View Post
    I like the idea of an easier way to board a canoe. If you change the sock for a float and put a stirrup tied to the float support you will have a ladder to get aboard. The float only needs to support part of your weight as the fulcrum will be closer to the floating canoe. If the support were to pivot on the edge of the gunwale the far end would wedge under the opposite gunwale the float in the water would be very easy to deploy. The web stirrup would self deploy. You may want the stirrup to sink to make it easy to get your foot in. This would be easier with a drawing.
    The float idea would work too I guess. The arm must come out on that side of the canoe because the leeboard gets in the way on the starboard side and the last thing I want to do is remove the leeboard during a capsize! I had in my mind figured that if I got in on the side of the leeboard, I could use the leeboard handle to pull myself in, but perhaps this would get in the way in practice.
    I'm rubbish on stirups and rope/ wire ladders at the best of times, especially when in the water, so figured that if I can get the gunwale down to the waterline (But above it of course), I should be able to pull myself in over the gunwale. Perhaps a bigger a WC cistern ball float (Or slightly bigger) would have enough buoyancy to keep the gunwale up? Then it's just a case of pulling the arm out, cliping the float to the end and climb back in on the same side?



    I feel that is idea is evolving into something useful though.
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 21st-March-2012 at 09:24 AM.

  2. #62

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    The only thought I had based on Dr Joe's idea of using buoyancy instead of weight is that you could then probably give yourself a leg up on the arm to aid your re-entry (which you've already stated is particularly difficult for you). This is then essentially the same principle as a kayak paddle float and I can tell you from my own tests it does make re-entry a doddle. It also has the advantage that you can leave it deployed while you bail the canoe out, re-rig etc which is handy in rough water and when the canoe has a fair bit of water in it and is a lot more tippy than when it's empty. I'm not too sure what you could use as a float though (perhaps a small pneumatic fender which could double as a roller for landing the canoe on beaches?) You can see what I mean about getting a leg up in this video. In many respects it's easier to get back into a canoe than a sea kayak as you don't have to negotiate the cockpit, I also lashed the paddle firmly to the centre thwart when trying this which again made it easier and would be close to what you'd have with your telescopic pole. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyoT0ylenvU

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    The only thought I had based on Dr Joe's idea of using buoyancy instead of weight is that you could then probably give yourself a leg up on the arm to aid your re-entry (which you've already stated is particularly difficult for you). This is then essentially the same principle as a kayak paddle float and I can tell you from my own tests it does make re-entry a doddle. It also has the advantage that you can leave it deployed while you bail the canoe out, re-rig etc which is handy in rough water and when the canoe has a fair bit of water in it and is a lot more tippy than when it's empty. I'm not too sure what you could use as a float though (perhaps a small pneumatic fender which could double as a roller for landing the canoe on beaches?) You can see what I mean about getting a leg up in this video. In many respects it's easier to get back into a canoe than a sea kayak as you don't have to negotiate the cockpit, I also lashed the paddle firmly to the centre thwart when trying this which again made it easier and would be close to what you'd have with your telescopic pole. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyoT0ylenvU
    Yeah Chris, I think the float idea may work better as it is one less thing to think about. I.e. Not having to fill a drybag and attaching it.
    I have just come back from B&Q and managed to buy a large cistern ball float (Only £2.49) and a long M8 mushroom head bolt that screws into the end. I also got some plumbing pipe clips (28mm) for a couple of quid to attach the pole to the leeboard thwart.

    Think I will put some hosepipe around the long bolt so it is a nice firm fit, but hopefully will allow me to leave the ball float loose in the canoe and just push it in the pole if needed.

    I have just held the float under the water in our water but and it seems really buoyant, so after lunch, I will put it all together.

    Hoping to go sailing on Rutland Water tomorrow as the winds should be up to 18-miles per hour (According to XCW!!!), which will allow me to test the storm sail (A bit, but F3 winds are not probably enough!) and if I can get this finished, I'll do some capsize drills in bay also.
    Bringing the Kodak so might get something on film too!

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Yeah Chris, I think the float idea may work better as it is one less thing to think about. I.e. Not having to fill a drybag and attaching it.
    I have just come back from B&Q and managed to buy a large cistern ball float (Only £2.49) and a long M8 mushroom head bolt that screws into the end. I also got some plumbing pipe clips (28mm) for a couple of quid to attach the pole to the leeboard thwart.

    Think I will put some hosepipe around the long bolt so it is a nice firm fit, but hopefully will allow me to leave the ball float loose in the canoe and just push it in the pole if needed.

    I have just held the float under the water in our water but and it seems really buoyant, so after lunch, I will put it all together.

    Hoping to go sailing on Rutland Water tomorrow as the winds should be up to 18-miles per hour (According to XCW!!!), which will allow me to test the storm sail (A bit, but F3 winds are not probably enough!) and if I can get this finished, I do some capsize drills in bay also.
    Bringing the Kodak so might get something on film too!
    I wonder if it doesn't prove buoyant enough would you just be able to add a second (and possibly third) cistern float to the pole? I'm struggling to visualise exactly how it will attach so I'm not sure if that'd be possible. You won't need a huge amount of buoyancy, a paddle float isn't all that big and provides just enough.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    The float idea would work too I guess...... Perhaps a bigger a WC cistern ball float (Or slightly bigger) would have enough buoyancy to keep the gunwale up? Then it's just a case of pulling the arm out, cliping the float to the end and climb back in on the same side?



    I feel that is idea is evolving into something useful though.
    It's beginning to look useful.....but how about ballcock on each side of the boat and permanaently deployed for a little bit of extra stability, maybe even torpedo shaped to be hydrodynamic if they hit the water when moving? Or has that been thought of already?
    Reminds me of the First World War fighter pilot's idea for attacking Zeppelins with a hand grenade dangled below the aircraft on a string..........until someone sensibly suggested the string might get tangled round something and it would be better to just drop the handgrenade from above, to make it detonate on impact and aerodynamic with fins on the back.
    Apologies Steamerpoint, I couldn't resist but don't stop now you could actually be on to something.
    Last edited by GavinM; 21st-March-2012 at 12:26 PM.

  6. #66
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    Right had lunch, off into the garage to knock this up.

    Yep Chris, we had already looked at adding a 2nd float and this would be possible without too much hassle. I'll try one float first though. The float is 6 or 7 inches in diameter, but naturally I'll take a few pics once it's done.
    The whole thing is so simple, easy to make and cheap. It should also look okay too, though I am not sailing the canoe with a big orange ball on the side, that would look a bit naff!!

  7. #67

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    I'd prefer to use a paddle float personally as it has a secondary use (as a paddle) but the idea of having something ready to deploy quickly is a good one in many respects and there is an element of faffing about involved with the use of a paddle float. The last time I tested it (with Gailainne) we came to the conclusion that rigging the paddle float entailed too much time in the water getting cold and as we could both manage to re-enter the boat without using it anyway I stopped carrying it after that. If you can't get back in your canoe unassisted then devising some kind of system such as Steamerpoints makes sense. You need to make sure it's reliable though Chris, sods law dictates that if there's a weakness it will fail when you need it most.
    I just had a eureka moment, what you need to add extra buoyancy to your pole is kids inflatable swimming armband/waterwings, you could just slide a pair of those onto the pole and use the cistern float to stop them coming off the end!

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    It's beginning to look useful.....but how about ballcock on each side of the boat and permanaently deployed for a little bit of extra stability, maybe even torpedo shaped to be hydrodynamic if they hit the water when moving? Or has that been thought of already?
    Reminds me of the First World War fighter pilot's idea for attacking Zeppelins with a hand grenade dangled below the aircraft on a string..........until someone sensibly suggested the string might get tangled round something and it would be better to just drop the handgrenade from above, to make it detonate on impact and aerodynamic with fins on the back.
    Apologies Steamerpoint, I couldn't resist but don't stop now you could actually be on to something.
    Haha, that's wicked Peregrine (but very funny).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post

    Here's how the idea would look setup on my canoe:

    Looks a bit like an outrigger to me! Or am I on the wrong thread...


    oops - guilty of posting before reading the subsequent posts since I looked a while ago - peregrine got there first....
    Last edited by windorpaddle; 21st-March-2012 at 02:28 PM. Reason: oops

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    Okay, job finished.

    Here is a photo of it setup and ready for the capsize! Apart from the ball float on the bow wedge, it's not that obvious I don't think.



    Here's a close-up with it attached to the leeboard thwart.



    And another.



    This is a close-up of the ball float. There is an 8-inch M8 mushroom head bolt passing through some garden hose and then through a nylon spacer bush (Taken from an old walking crutch) that is an exact fit into the tubing of the arm. It is all tightend up together so that it is rigid, yet pushes into the end of the tube nice and snug.



    If I want to sail with the ball float fitted, this is what it would look like.



    This is it fully extended.



    With the canoe tilted when trying to get in, it would be in the water like this.



    This this is roughly how it would look with me getting in, thanks to the wife who took the photo!



    Testing begins tomorrow.

  11. #71

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    I'm pretty sure you're going to need more buoyancy than that one float provides Chris. That's probably around a quarter to a third of the size of a fully inflated paddle float. What about my waterwing/armband idea, it'd be easy to slide two of those onto the poll before sticking the ball float on the end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    I'm pretty sure you're going to need more buoyancy than that one float provides Chris. That's probably around a quarter to a third of the size of a fully inflated paddle float. What about my waterwing/armband idea, it'd be easy to slide two of those onto the poll before sticking the ball float on the end?
    Hmm.... Maybe Chris, but I'll try it as is first as the length of the arm does increase the load it is delivering to the canoe. I take comfort from something you said earlier though.
    we came to the conclusion that rigging the paddle float entailed too much time in the water getting cold and as we could both manage to re-enter the boat without using it anyway I stopped carrying it after that.
    I think I will have a fair bit of lift/ support on that side with this, which might be all I need. Armbands and more floats of course could be added later.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Joe View Post
    I like the idea of an easier way to board a canoe. If you change the sock for a float and put a stirrup tied to the float support you will have a ladder to get aboard. The float only needs to support part of your weight as the fulcrum will be closer to the floating canoe. If the support were to pivot on the edge of the gunwale the far end would wedge under the opposite gunwale the float in the water would be very easy to deploy. The web stirrup would self deploy. You may want the stirrup to sink to make it easy to get your foot in. This would be easier with a drawing.
    Aren't we back to paddle-floats again ? I like the idea of the telescopic pole thing though.

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    If you had a small boat shaped float on the end perhaps you could have it extended all the time whilst you are sailing and then you may not capsize in the first place.
    Just teasing. The telescopic arm is a great idea. You could hook a bucket on that. I am not sure that your float is big enough though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    ....

    Ideas on the diameter of the sock anyone?
    Basics:
    The submerged portion of the sock does absolutely nothing - it is like altitude above your or runway behind you.
    The filled portion above the free surface is the only thing capable of providing a righting or counterbalance moment.
    The cross sectional area (waterplane area) defines the stiffness of the set-up - each 100 square centimetres (10x10) provides 1 newton per centimetre of immersion depth change - so a long thin sock will be a poor choice of shape - short and thick does the trick.

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    Been thinking of something sorta like this sock thing myself..mmm .

    Floating re-entry aids have more 'tip resistance' offering more stability when climbing aboard.. Maybe a 50/50 aproach? Nah

    Got me thinking aloud now!

    Isn't this thread a cracker. SOTP at its best.
    Last edited by Teign Beaver; 21st-March-2012 at 08:23 PM.
    ........Enthusiastically incapable .

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    Sitting here thinking my way through this....

    I think I might have missed something.

    You fall out of the boat without outriggers and need to get back in....

    The boat tries to roll over sideways if you push down on the gunnel....

    So has anyone tried using a drop down step/ stirrup to climb on from the end?

    I know on some narrow, high ended canoes, this might not work, but the green ones in this thread look sort of platformed at the ends, and buoyant enough they wouldnt go under - especially if its was loaded at one end and you were sitting at the other.

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    Yes, some people re-enter over the end but being so narrow there it is very unstable. Unlikely to be successful in other than nice smooth conditions, which are less likely to have tipped you in in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post

    Last time I assumed that position I was talking to God on a large white porcelain telephone

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    The buoyancy of this little plastic float is actually pretty good. I recon it would keep a few kg's of dead weight on the waterline, so with a meter long arm, the leverage is quite high. I am actually concerned that the steel arm (Originally thought it was aluminium) is the weak point or the pipe clips that might break before the float sinks completely!!

    What's that saying, "Give me a lever long enough and I will move the world".

    Another thing, it doesn't need to support my weight fully, it needs to support around a third of my weight for around 2-seconds while I pull myself in. It essentially needs to slow down the tipping motion of the canoe long enough for me to get the main part of my body over the gunwale.

    Another thing I like about this design is the ball float. It is the perfect shape to my mind. Any waves that strike it will pass by in the same way no matter which way it is facing. The cistern float was also designed and manufactured to do the job it is doing, so the float is unlikely to fail.

    I am pleased with the descrete telescopic pole/ arm. During normal sailing, I won't know it is there, yet it is quickly deployed when I need it.

    The idea is simple, cheap and lightweight. Perfect for our paddling community!

    I have no problem with capsizing as long as I can get back in again quickly and carry on. To me capsizing is part of the sport and you are not pushing the envelope if you don't capsize occasionally. Some people like to cruise and others like the thrill of the race!

    I know that I started this thread with the idea of a sock hanging from a pole and ended up going for a float on a pole, so not really a sock at all, but this should be as effective and less faff.

    The canoe is already on the car roof for tomorrow, so looking forward to trying it out. I am fairly confident that it will work, but will share the verdict tomorrow night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    I have no problem with capsizing as long as I can get back in again quickly and carry on. To me capsizing is part of the sport and you are not pushing the envelope if you don't capsize occasionally. Some people like to cruise and others like the thrill of the race!

    I know that I started this thread with the idea of a sock hanging from a pole and ended up going for a float on a pole, so not really a sock at all, but this should be as effective and less faff.

    The canoe is already on the car roof for tomorrow, so looking forward to trying it out. I am fairly confident that it will work, but will share the verdict tomorrow night.
    Good luck with your trials today Steamerpoint. It looks like you have the makings of a useful recovery system.

    You may have already sussed this but I've found it pays to make a grab for the far gunwale and haul myself across the boat when re-entering the canoe. In this way I'm depressing the near gunwale a bit less and pulling myself across the canoe a bit more. Looks a bit undignified as I end up in a heap in the bottom of the boat but it works. I usually have to unship the rig to recover without outriggers but if I lost a couple of stone in weight I would probably not need to pull the mast out of its step. Don't forget, as I do occasionally, to ensure the end of your mainsheet has a stopper knot otherwise your rig could end up on the bottom of Rutland Water, unless you have some additional system to secure it to your boat.

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    Worked a treat.
    Got it all on film and will publish later.

    While the float will sink if you push down on the gunwale nearest the float, there is a lot more resistance than without it. I feel it gave me valuable seconds to climb inside and a certain amount of stability while bailing out.

    The drysuit was nice, warm and dry, plus very comfortable. Feet were dry too thanks to some latex socks.

    The storm sail worked well too, though we only had F3 winds today so could have done with twice that!
    Even tried it out without the rudder and did some paddle sailing. Ian, it's a dream for paddle sailing and you'd luv it!

    Vids to follow.

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    I'm pleased it's worked for you Steamerpoint and I'm looking forward to seeing the video, well done!
    But, I still think it's too complicated; too many bits that could break and the need to get to the "float" side of the canoe means extra time in the water.

    But I've been giving this a bit of thought and I think I've sussed it - you need a parachute!

    Well, a drogue: Tied securely to the middle of the centre thwart so it can be thrown over the opposite side of the canoe. When you pull down hard on the gunnel it opens and provides enough drag to stop your gunnel sinking as you climb back in.

    it would need experimenting with to get it right:

    #1 It would need some kind of weight in the centre of it, to make sure it sinks, but not so much that would prevent it from opening when the upwards pull comes on it.
    #2 I imagine it being about 18"x18", but I really haven't a clue how big it would need to be. I think it would be a case of trial and error unless someone clever can work it out?
    #3 It may need packing carefully to make sure it deploys perfectly each time - I think rolling it up around a stone should work and it'll help it sink.

    Just Googled drogue and found this:

    http://www.google.co.uk/products/cat...ed=0CEgQ8wIwAA

    That may do the trick and you could experiment with weight (see #1 above) by clipping small gear krabs to the crossover straps at the apex.

    Anyone got any thoughts on this idea?
    Cheers, Pieface.

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    I think a drogue of that size will have to travel too far before it opens fully and would still move through the water too fast to allow you time to get back in unless you were very nimble.

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    Um... I think it would get tangled up really easily and when you pull it out of the water, you just have a wet spider to deal with!! The leeboard side would be an obvious tangle hazard!!

    I used to fit and collect drogue chutes on the K2 Victor tankers and they are a nightmare. The strings catch on everything.

    Then they are only really a one hit wonder. They would need to be dried out, re-packed and what happens if you capsize twice on the same day?

    The system I tested today was flawless. I have just sat down behind the computer to sort out the vid, so you can see for yourself.

  26. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    I think a drogue of that size will have to travel too far before it opens fully and would still move through the water too fast to allow you time to get back in unless you were very nimble.
    The need for this thread would disappear if folk would just put a little effort into becoming more nimble!

    My remedy: swap the keyboard and banter on SongofthePaddle for Pilates classes and a bit more exercise!

  27. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Feet were dry too thanks to some latex socks.
    The capsize socks worked!



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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    I used to fit and collect drogue chutes on the K2 Victor tankers and they are a nightmare. The strings catch on everything.

    Then they are only really a one hit wonder. They would need to be dried out, re-packed and what happens if you capsize twice on the same day?

    The system I tested today was flawless. I have just sat down behind the computer to sort out the vid, so you can see for yourself.
    I can imagine the drogue chutes for a large aircraft being a bit of a nuisance but a small 4 line dan buoy drogue should be a bit more managable.
    I think it would only need to be on about 3 or 4 feet of rope so quite easy to simply roll up and put it back where it's kept for next time, it wont need drying out.
    Cheers, Pieface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    The need for this thread would disappear if folk would just put a little effort into becoming more nimble!

    My remedy: swap the keyboard and banter on SongofthePaddle for Pilates classes and a bit more exercise!
    I'll remind you of this post when you have two frozen shoulders, a post-operative hip and are 46-years old unable to climb into a canoe!

    When I was your age Greg, I routinely ran 18-miles and spent most days in the gym. I would say that my level of fitness was first class. Unfortunately we all get old and wear out. Anything that can prolong our exposure to the great outdoors and improves our level of safety should not be mocked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    I think a drogue of that size will have to travel too far before it opens fully and would still move through the water too fast to allow you time to get back in unless you were very nimble.
    If you lift the gunnels then pull sharply down on them as you start to climb in, maybe that would be enough to open the drogue properly? If the drogue moves too fast through the water then it isn't big enough.
    Cheers, Pieface.

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  31. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    I'll remind you of this post when you have two frozen shoulders, a post-operative hip and are 46-years old unable to climb into a canoe!
    Um - I'm pretty much your age, Chris. I have every sympathy with the frozen shoulder thing: have witnessed that up close. In Keith's case, there's dodgy back to consider. Others have their own good reason to be less nimble than in their youth (and would regard 46 as comparatively youthful): sobeit.

    On the other hand, AK (who recovered to my Flashfire unaided on Coniston) did so despite being way bigger than me, and despite having a hospital record that would suggest he stay wrapped up in cotton wool for the rest of his days.

    So long as we see these aids to recovering to the canoe in terms of keeping the sport accessible for all, I'm all in favour. What I trust we'll NOT forget is that for an able bodied paddler in reasonable shape, recovering to a canoe shouldn't be seen as a big deal!



    I'm sure some have good reason to avoid this style of self-rescue... but I'm also quite sure that many could master it without too much fuss. If we need additional aids, fine... but I'd not want aids to be seen as a substitute for mastering self-rescue techniques!

  32. #92

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    The thing is you need to keep practicing self-rescues to get better at them. You wouldn't expect to take up golf and be brilliant at it straight away, why would getting back in a half sunken canoe be any different? I'm yet to have a rescue practice session this year (although I did capsize on Sunday, kept that quiet didn't I ). I will do it soon though and I have some ideas to try to improve my own personal bugbear (which is the amount of water my boat has in it once I right it and which I subsequently spend ages bailing out).
    By the way you're both positively youthful, I'll be 48 on Sunday!

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    Happy Birthday for Sunday, Chris W!!

    And as for talking of rescue practice now in March? Well! Streuth, historically it's been hard enough to get most OCSG people thinking or talking about it at any time, let alone this early in the year!! But you and Greg are quite right of course - familiarity will bring competence and confidence.

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    Here's the capsize recovery:



    Sorry I didn't make it look more athletic, but hey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Here's the capsize recovery:

    Sorry I didn't make it look more athletic, but hey!
    Impressive, looked more athletic than my capsize recovery! And only about 20 seconds to deploy. Seems like you have the makings of a new reliable canoe capsize recovery aid. Good video. What camera do you use?

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    For expeditions I prefer to take a spare trolley wheel, having been let down by punctures on two long portages. A spare trolley wheel might make a good float for your telescopic outrigger. I'd guess the buoyancy would be on a par with your large ballcock, if not a little more. Sometimes I also take a small flat (closed cell foam filled) fender with 2 holes either end for fender securing ropes. It is good for protecting the hull when pulled ashore for a lunch stop. It also doubles as a seat or as a flat surface for my camping stove. Just thinking of buoyant things which have other uses.
    Last edited by GavinM; 23rd-March-2012 at 07:23 AM.

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    Well done Chris for getting out there and trying it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Here's the capsize recovery:



    Sorry I didn't make it look more athletic, but hey!
    Looks pretty impressive to me ! ... and what's all this about 40 something being old ??!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    What camera do you use?
    Kodak X5 Playsport. Good bit of kit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    For expeditions I prefer to take a spare trolley wheel, having been let down by punctures on two long portages. A spare trolley wheel might make a good float for your telescopic outrigger. I'd guess the buoyancy would be on a par with your large ballcock, if not a little more. Sometimes I also take a small flat (closed cell foam filled) fender with 2 holes either end for fender securing ropes. It is good for protecting the hull when pulled ashore for a lunch stop. It also doubles as a seat or as a flat surface for my camping stove. Just thinking of buoyant things which have other uses.
    Good idea about the spare wheel, worth thinking about for the Scottish trip.
    I might add an extra ball float to double the buoyancy, but I don't feel it is that urgent. The bias is definitely lifting the side up again, whereas if I wasn't fast enough without it, the gunwale would sink and I would pull the canoe back over onto me! There is also a limit to how much this arm can do. Too much buoyancy and there is a risk that it will break. I look at it as an aid, nothing more. It gives me confidence that I can recover easily enough and it takes the pressure off. I can then go out on the water without worrying, improving my skills in more challenging conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ISABELLA View Post
    Looks pretty impressive to me ! ... and what's all this about 40 something being old ??!!
    Two weeks ago, I needed a stick to help me walk! Sometimes I feel very old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Here's the capsize recovery [...] Sorry I didn't make it look more athletic, but hey!
    Looks fine to me, Chris - though I can't help feeling you'd have been fine with that technique and no ball-cock arrangement.

    I noticed you did that with the rig up.. which can make life more challenging (unless utilised).

    The biggest plus to your arrangement, to my mind, is the option to leave the ballcock set up whilst you bail and sort yourself and your rig out: a time when you're perhaps not wanting to be dealing with a paddle, or a tiller, or with hiking out and so on.

  43. #103

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    Very good Chris , well done! Like Greg I reckon that with a bit of practice you'd be able to do that without the arm deployed. You certainly didn't hang around getting back in and the arm seemed to balance the canoe nicely during the all important wobbly period when you have to bail out. I'm impressed with how well the whole set up works, I really didn't think you had enough buoyancy with just the ball but I'm now eating my words/thoughts (yum yum!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Very good Chris , well done! Like Greg I reckon that with a bit of practice you'd be able to do that without the arm deployed. You certainly didn't hang around getting back in and the arm seemed to balance the canoe nicely during the all important wobbly period when you have to bail out. I'm impressed with how well the whole set up works, I really didn't think you had enough buoyancy with just the ball but I'm now eating my words/thoughts (yum yum!)
    Thanks Chris, but it could do with slightly more buoyancy if I'm honest, but it is fine as it is. If I was in a shop and had the choice of a ballcock twice the size, it would be perfect, but then you have to carry it around with you all the time taking up valuable space plus I would need to carry it on portages etc.

    I'm happier with it than I am with the clip-on rudder system I built last year, which while works fine in operation, it is heavy to carry. At least the ball on a stick is lightweight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    Looks fine to me, Chris - though I can't help feeling you'd have been fine with that technique and no ball-cock arrangement.

    I noticed you did that with the rig up.. which can make life more challenging (unless utilised).

    The biggest plus to your arrangement, to my mind, is the option to leave the ballcock set up whilst you bail and sort yourself and your rig out: a time when you're perhaps not wanting to be dealing with a paddle, or a tiller, or with hiking out and so on.
    What you don't see in my face is the pain in my shoulders as I try to reach above my head and while it worked okay and may have got in without the float, if I hadn't got in, the second and third attempts would have been much harder.

    If you look carefully, I turn the canoe through 180 degrees so that the wind is behind me. (Look at the horrizon spin) This is something I have always done after a capsize. Plus it's good practice when racing dinghies to leave the sails up, get back in, crack open the self bailers and sail it dry back into the race! If your lucky enough to have a crew and you don't need them to balance the boat, hand them a bucket and get them to bail out as well.

    Yes I agree, the ball float definitely calmed things down a great deal. I think there was a point where it started to go back over and I flicked it back onto the float. Not sure how it would behave if the wind turned the canoe into wind and it started bouncing around a lot more.

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    The larger ball cock may be a better bet if you capsized in earnest in stronger winds and larger waves. Having something larger to lean on and steady the canoe, sideways on in waves whilst you bail, might help to prevent a re-capsize.

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    Well here's a nice mathmatical problem.

    Thinking about your idea of going for more buoyancy Dave and perhaps a bigger ballcock, what is better, just buying another 6" diameter ballcock for £2.45 and attaching two of them on the end of the arm or buying a 12" ballcock instead? Would a 12" diameter ballcock offer twice as much buoyancy as one 6" diameter ballcock? Sounds like it should.

    Rather than waiting for someone to tell me the answer, I decided to work it out for myself!

    Well using the equation V=¾πR³, I have calculated the volume of my 6" diameter ballcock to be 113 cubic inches. Two of them bolted together would give me double that figure or 226 cubic inches.

    Using the same equation to calculate the volume of a 12" ballcock would give me a volume of 905 cubic inches. I knew maths would come in handy one day!

    A 12" ballcock would have 8-times more buoyancy than a 6" ballcock so quite possibly much, much more than I need, plus I'm carrying around a football size ballcock with me everywhere I go. A bit overkill perhaps.

    An 8" ballcock would have a volume of 268 cubic inches, nearly two and a half times more than what I currently have, which sounds like it should be enough, but if I went for the 10" diameter ballcock it would have a volume of 524 cubic inches, nearly 5-times what I currently have!

    Below are the sizes, volumes and prices:

    6" = 113 Inches³ = £1.85 (I paid slightly more from B&Q!!)
    8" = 268 Inches³ = £9.99
    10" = 524 Inches³ = £16.50
    12" = 905 Inches³ = £26.50


    I'm tempted to buy an 8" ballcock based on the price and the strength/ weakness of the telescopic arm.

    Any other thoughts?

  48. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post


    Below are the sizes, volumes and prices:

    6" = 113 Inches³ = £1.85 (I paid slightly more from B&Q!!)
    8" = 268 Inches³ = £9.99
    10" = 524 Inches³ = £16.50
    12" = 905 Inches³ = £26.50


    I'm tempted to buy an 8" ballcock based on the price and the strength/ weakness of the telescopic arm.

    Any other thoughts?
    In terms of cost per cubic inch the 6" ball is cheapest at 0.016p per cubic inch.

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    6" = 113 Inches³ = £1.85 = 1851 grams = 4lbs
    8" = 268 Inches³ = £9.99 = 4391 grams = 10 lbs
    10" = 524 Inches³ = £16.50 = 8586 grams = 18.5 lbs
    12" = 905 Inches³ = £26.50 = 14830 grams = 32.5 lbs

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    The SD small outriggers have a buoyancy of around 40lbs, and that seems plenty in practice. I can sit on the gunwale and it will support my 14st.
    4 lbs to me seems a little on the small size. The point that i was making was that you said that you just got in and the float went under the water. In more difficult conditions, or if your frozen shoulder is playing up, you may take longer leaning on the gunwale whilst getting back in. If the ball cock sinks below the surface as you take time getting in then it will capsize on top of you. A bigger ball cock , trial and error will find the correct size, will allow you to pause in your effort getting into the canoe without it capsizing. Price shouldnt come into it. If you need more buoyancy to make it fool proof then why not.
    The argument that you havent the room in your canoe for a 12 inch ball seems a bit overkill . The extreme white water canoeists fill their canoes with expensive air bags because it is necessary.
    Once you are back in the canoe with the rig up, having something more buoyant to lean on whilst you bail the canoe is also very useful. I noticed that on your video you are wobbling about a bit. The water sloshing side to side in the canoe does upset the primary stability.
    Another thing to consider before you go on your Caledonian Canal trip is how does this work with all your camping gear in the canoe with you. Again practice and see how you manage.

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    I could buy either an 8" or 10" ballcock and test it again at the meet next month. A typical football measures 9" in diameter so this gives an approximate size.

    My concern lies with the strength of the arm and the clips that attach it to the thwart. The initial idea was to buy me valuable seconds by slowing down the rate at which the canoe gunwale sinks under my weight, rather than fully support my weight as I climb in. With that in mind, the current ballcock achieves this aim, but I take your point about bigger waves and more stability while bailing out.

    I think I will buy the next size up going for the 8" ballcock or buy a second 6" ballcock. I feel that the arm will take the loads and while I imagine that it will still sink under my weight, it will allow for the bigger waves and a more nagging shoulder condition.

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    Here is the full version of the video.


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    Okay, opted for the cheap and cheerful option. Buoyancy doubled.

    Now stands at 8lbs. Thanks DougR.


  54. #114

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    Now you just need a giant bra to stop them bouncing around in the boat when you're not playing with them

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregandginas View Post
    now you just need a giant bra to stop them bouncing around in the boat when you're not playing with them
    lol

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    Cue Hattie Jacques, Barbara Windsor and Sid James? Looking back at some of the previous posts, is there a series of double entendres running throughout this thread?

  57. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Cue Hattie Jacques, Barbara Windsor and Sid James? Looking back at some of the previous posts, is there a series of double entendres running throughout this thread?

    I'm not sure , but I think Steamerpoint has shown that it takes giant balls to practise capsize recovery at this time of year.

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    Well done Chris. This brings up another idea. Instead of just a pole to support the float I envision a plank that will provide several functions. One the sliding plank will make a seat to use when hiking out for when you have too much sail and wind. Second the plank with the attached float would be a smooth surface to lay on and slide into the canoe with. If the plank had hand holes you could easily pull your body into the canoe up an inclined plane. Thank you for sharing your inventions.
    Dr. Joe
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  59. #119

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    Have just fished my paddle floats out of the attic. They are closed cell foam (Homemade, but about the same size as commercial versions, and (if I calculate correctly) have a bouyancy of about 8kg. They are quite difficult to submerge when attached to the paddle.
    If I calculate correctly ( and I never guarantee that!) 2 X 6" diameter floats have a total bouyancy of just over 3.5 kg.
    Not sure where I'm going with this - but I think it might be worth taking my split kayak paddle, plus at least one paddle float, on the Caledonian trip. Won't be as quick to assemble as your set-up - the split will have to be assembled, and than strapped across a thwart.
    I used to pride myself on being able to "hop" back into my canoe - but my joints don't let me do much hopping nowadays !

    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Okay, opted for the cheap and cheerful option. Buoyancy doubled.

    Now stands at 8lbs. Thanks DougR.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ISABELLA View Post
    If I calculate correctly 2 X 6" diameter floats have a total bouyancy of just over 3.5 kg.
    Very good, 3.63kgs to be precise.

    I'm just looking to buy a few valuable seconds of buoyancy while I climb back in, not something that I can climb on and shuffle myself back in. I.e. slow down the speed of canoe roll and I feel that this device achieves this for me.

    Your paddle float could probably take a fair bit of your weight by the sounds of it.

    I must say that the biggest advantage and the very best capsize recovery device is the pair of side buoyancy airbags I fitted!

    This photo shows just how high out of the water the side airbags lift the canoe!



    This photo shows just how little water was left in the canoe after rolling it over and because of this, the canoe offers a great deal of buoyancy and stability allowing some resistance to rolling over back onto you. The combination of the airbags and the side floats is perfect in my opinion!



    This is that tipping point where I feel I need the side floats.

    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 31st-March-2012 at 04:40 PM.

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