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Thread: Fitting Out an Apache Canoe

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    Default Fitting Out an Apache Canoe

    In the world of self build canoes this may be cheating (but only a little bit )

    Apache Canoes sell a bare GRP hull for fitting out by the purchaser. A number of members have already gone down this route and more (myself included) are about to follow. So I thought this would be a useful thread to share experiences, ideas, hints, supplier details etc.

    For example everyone will need to do something about seats, thwarts, yokes etc. GoatieBoater has already done this for his cedar strip refurb and in one post mentioned this supplier in the US. I have been in touch with them and they have advised that whilst they do have to charge a bit extra for postage to the UK, they are prepared to discuss discounts for bulk purchase. (I'd rather talk about a SOTP discount with items being shipped direct to members). What do you think? Would you want some of this kit? Tell me what you want and I will try to negotiate a SOTP deal.

    Someone must have ideas on other aspects of the fitting out - e.g. gunwales, decks, transport sharing for collecting the hulls from Apaches works etc. If you have an idea or a query post it here and lets explore the full value of teamwork.
    Last edited by Chrish; 20th-January-2008 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Keith had a bad typing day!!
    Keith

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    I am interested in the hull and I have had a look at the above site.

    If you were going for some of the kit form there I would be interest as I am looking at the thwarts, carry handles and yokes in walnut or cherry.

    The prices are quite good but would be great with a discount.

    The thing I imagine most for postage costs would be the gunwales and the price of those doesn't seem that great. Interesting to see how many would be wanting the gunwales.

    Biggest problem in sharing transport would be that we are all coming form different directions, I think it would be down to individual members to mention where they are coming form and then see about local meets for carrying two canoes on one car or meeting at a central point and hiring a canoe trailer form there to the apache shop.

    Its fairly close for me so sharing seems unlikely between Lakes and Liverpool but somebody might be doing it form my area so willing to discuss a car share.

    Looking forward to some ides coming on this thread.

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    It's the distance that'll kill it from right down here ...
    So I'll be watching with interest.

    I might ring around a few courier companies this week, and see if anyone feels like it's something they can take on ...

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    The pictures of my fit out are on this thread
    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...ead.php?t=5810
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

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    aghhhh thanks a lot Keith,

    I was perfectly happy with my apache until I saw those lovely looking cane bucket seats.

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    Default Possible Deal with edscanoe.com

    Quote Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
    I was perfectly happy with my apache until I saw those lovely looking cane bucket seats.
    I anyone else feels the same (to the point where you would buy any of the kit from edscanoe.com), please say so. I intend to try to negotiate a deal with the US supplier but I need the prospect of some immediate orders to do this.
    Keith

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    Hia

    I'd be interested in a coupla the oval seats (currently reduced), hangers and hardware and 2 carry handles. Let me know if you manage to get some sorta deal.

    Joel

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    Default possible edscanoe.com order

    Keith,

    I am looking at:

    2 carry handles - Black Walnut - $8
    4 standard thwarts - Black Walnut - $51
    1 portage yoke - Black walnut - $22.70
    1 34" Oval seat - Black Walnut - $29.95

    Total Current level is $111.65

    That does include local shipping I believe so interesting to see what UK shipping would be.

    Would like to know what deal could be done on that if ordered with a large deal. Would need to know price before confirming order of course Also would like to know what shipping times there would be.

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    Ought to point out that I am going to buy stuff from this site now regardless of deals as its the only place I can get everything in black walnut.

    Will wait a few days to see what happens but if nothing then will start my own discussions.

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    Smile Ed's Canoe Gear

    I'd be interested in 2 cane bucket seats in cherry, an extreme duty portage yoke in ash, 4 extreme duty seat hangers talong with two extreme duty carry handles in cherry and the necessary hardware fittings.

    I think when the time comes I'll get Regbella to fit out the boat (hopefully using the above if we can get a group deal) as I could manage a crude bird table or box but would surely make an ae of a bonny new Apache hull!

    Will view this thread with interest.

    Last edited by Red Kite; 11th-October-2007 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Added some items
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    Default Yet More

    Add to my list:

    1x Extreme Duty Seat Hangers
    1x Seat Hardware Kit

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Pete View Post
    Add to my list:

    1x Extreme Duty Seat Hangers
    1x Seat Hardware Kit
    You're not going to put metal hangers in are you?

    TGB
    May the gentleness of morning, greet your silent passage through endless waters...

    May all your winds be gentle. And for ww - May it rain the night before.

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    I've just ordered an Apache, and I've got a Snowshoe in the offing, so I'd be in for 1 Heavy duty cane seat, two contoured seats, 4 carry handles, 2 portage yokes, and some seat hanger kits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Pete View Post
    Add to my list:

    1x Extreme Duty Seat Hangers
    1x Seat Hardware Kit

    Pete
    Are you sure you want the Extreme Duty Seat Hangers? These are designed to fit the Extreme Duty Seats (and bucket seats?) which are deeper than the regular, Contour and Oval seats.

    Quote Originally Posted by TGB View Post
    You're not going to put metal hangers in are you?
    No! The Extreme Duty Hangers are also wood, just bigger to fit the Extreme Duty Seats. Still not sure what's so extreme the range, maybe they surf and snowboard in their spare time.

    I have asked Keith to see if they will also do a kneeling thwart. When paying prices like these for such good products I object to paying tripple that for 3 pieces of wood. If not I'll make my own. Aslo a shame they don't do a nice deep dish yoke, not so keen on the contour yokes on their site.

    Joel

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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Are you sure you want the Extreme Duty Seat Hangers?
    Whoops, no I meant the normal ones! I was looking at the extreme ones but decided it was not an issue. Thanks for pointing it out.

    I decided the metal hangers weren't that nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    I have asked Keith to see if they will also do a kneeling thwart.
    I would be very interested in that in the Black Walnut version.

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    Default Snowshoe?

    Sorry Keith, I know its off thread but what's a Snowshoe, Phil?

    Interest piqued.

    TF
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubbyfraser View Post
    what's a Snowshoe?
    This is a snowshoe. (nice isn't it? )



    See this tread for the history of Don Redondo's build.
    Keith

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    Default Snowshoe

    What a beauty! Jealous or what? Thou shalt not covet another mans cow -stuff his cow, what about his canoe. Must go and view that thread.

    TF
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    Default edscanoe.com fittings

    I've just realised that the bucket seats won't be as comfortable if I were to turn the canoe round and paddle solo from the bow seat so I'd like to change my requirements as follows:

    2 x cherry oval seats
    2 x standard duty cherry carry handles
    2 x standard duty cherry seat hangers
    1 x extreme duty ash portage yoke
    All necessary fixing kits for above

    Thanks and sorry to be a pain.

    TF
    Chaste Snow-drop, venturous harbinger of Spring,
    And pensive monitor of fleeting years!


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    Gunwale questions!

    OK never fitted a gunwale before, and certainly unsure about this funny wood stuff.

    What are peoples thoughts on waterproofing gunwales and their contact with the hull.

    OK - I am oil staining my gunwales which is OK because that will provide waterproofing for the wood but I am curious about where the gunwale joins the hull, more importantly the side thats is 'clamped' against the hull.

    I did think that I might spread some silicone gel along the sides before securing them in place. My reason is that even with bolts every 4 inches there will be spaces where the gunwales don't have a sealed fit against the hull. Does water penetrate these gaps and if so how much damage can be done?

    I take it people don't glue their gunwales on as well which would repell water.

    Plus do people just screw through on side (the outer) of the gunwale in to the other side (inner) or do they actually bolt through?

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    I'm intending to use oil (before and after fitting) and screw from the outside to the inside with a free fit through the hull and the outer gunwale - so relying on the screw head holding the outer gunwale" and then clamping" the two gunwales together onto the hull.

    Does that make sense?
    Keith

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    Apologies, please scrap my interest in items from edscanoe.com. I've changed my mind from an Apache and decided on a Nova Craft SP3 as I think it will be more durable and better for tandem paddling with my wife. The weight doesn't concern me as I'm 6 foot, 16 stone and no shrinking violet. Again, I'm sorry for wasting peoples time, especially KeithD.
    Chaste Snow-drop, venturous harbinger of Spring,
    And pensive monitor of fleeting years!


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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    I'm intending to use oil (before and after fitting) and screw from the outside to the inside with a free fit through the hull and the outer gunwale - so relying on the screw head holding the outer gunwale" and then clamping" the two gunwales together onto the hull.

    Does that make sense?
    Yes. More sense than my post anyway.

    That was hopefully my idea as I didn't like the idea of bolting through.

    I take it then you see no problem with water ingress between the hull and gunwales and so no need to put waterproofing between them?

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Pete View Post
    I take it then you see no problem with water ingress between the hull and gunwales and so no need to put waterproofing between them?
    I don't. But then I don't know much!
    Keith

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    The gunwales will be fine oiled before and after fitting cheapest place i found for oil is homebase buy it in plastic bottles as opposed to metal as it's cheaper still.
    The gunwales will always air dry between trips anyway so don't think water ingress is much of an issue. i screwed mine from the inside out for looks and i thought it would be kinder to my paddle, i thought about using an adhesive but didn't but if you choose to i would recomend Sikaflex 291 it is a little pricey about £8 a tube use exactly the same as silicone but it should actualy stick the wood without any other fixings which i have done before but i always fix with screws aswell there's also a new product called evo stick wet grab which seems similar but you can use it underwater. As i said my gunwales are just screwed so at a later date i can either replace them easily or put them on a new hull. Hope this helps.
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

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    Default edscanoe order

    Any updates on the ordering level for edscanoe??

    Just starting to think about shipping times and I think I need to order mine by the end of the week really.

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    Default Pretty Apache

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Hadley View Post
    I've just put my order in - I'm going to have such a pretty Apache, and I've ordered a seat for my Snowshoe 14 too!
    What are you doing for the gunwales & decks?
    Keith

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    The local timber yard looks as though they stock what I'm looking for, just emailed them to see if I can go take a mooch round. I'm looking to do it in ash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Hadley View Post
    The local timber yard looks as though they stock what I'm looking for, just emailed them to see if I can go take a mooch round. I'm looking to do it in ash.
    Me too. Several yards quoted me £100 - £120 but I now have a quote for £63.
    Keith

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    I use Robbins timber in bristol who specialise in boatbuilding timber and they do mail order.
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbDave View Post
    I use Robbins timber in bristol who specialise in boatbuilding timber and they do mail order.
    That's who I got the £63 quote from.

    I can't imagine 16 ft gunwales coming through the post.
    Keith

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    I had shorter lengths 10ft i think then scarfed them.
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

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    I used Robbins for my ply and machined timber last week, The ply was fine but the machined timber (gunwales and other bits) was very very poor (never again) chunks out of the timber and one piece was snapped then taped together with Robbins tape. Delivery was late and when I rang the man said " Oh st why is this still here"

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    That's who I got the £63 quote from.

    I can't imagine 16 ft gunwales coming through the post.
    You certainly wouldn't be wanting to stand close to the letter box
    Lakeland Pete


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    Quote Originally Posted by canoebees View Post
    I used Robbins for my ply and machined timber last week, The ply was fine but the machined timber (gunwales and other bits) was very very poor (never again) chunks out of the timber and one piece was snapped then taped together with Robbins tape. Delivery was late and when I rang the man said " Oh st why is this still here"
    Did you sign for the timber in this condition? I've used Robbins for years for various boatbuilding projects and never had a problem with them. i know the carriers have handled timber badly unloading but if i doubt the quality i wouldn't sign and would send it back.
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

  36. #36
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    Picked up my Apache hull this morning - she looks lovely in ivory, got the seats and stuff on order from the States, just gotta find time to fetch the gunnels and get on with it now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Hadley View Post
    Picked up my Apache hull this morning - she looks lovely in ivory, got the seats and stuff on order from the States, just gotta find time to fetch the gunnels and get on with it now!
    Theres a lot of debate on this website between the fastest and bestest canoes being green or red and while you are all fighting amongst yourselves, the ivory canoes are coming, quietly growing in numbers plotting and one day will rule the world and red and green will tremble at their beuty

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
    Theres a lot of debate on this website between the fastest and bestest canoes being green or red and while you are all fighting amongst yourselves, the ivory canoes are coming, quietly growing in numbers plotting and one day will rule the world and red and green will tremble at their beuty
    Ivory canoes are just the red and green ones waiting for their colour, the fast ones have red applied, the faster ones green. simple really
    Leone_blanco

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAS247 View Post
    Ivory canoes are just the red and green ones waiting for their colour, the fast ones have red applied, the faster ones green. simple really
    You forgot to mention the blue ones.

    TGB
    May the gentleness of morning, greet your silent passage through endless waters...

    May all your winds be gentle. And for ww - May it rain the night before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGB View Post
    You forgot to mention the blue ones.

    TGB
    why would you consider blue ones in anyway crafts of speed ,red is the only way to go as an exanple i should like to draw your attention to the only man in the world who can on one night fly round the world with a full load on board and still make it back for breakfast.SANTA big red coat,raindeer with red nose in front sure you get it now red is the leader

  41. #41
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    Hows the fit outs going any progress yet? oh and by the way i think u'll find yellow is far quicker than red
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbDave View Post
    Hows the fit outs going any progress yet?
    • Seats etc arrive from Edscanoe.com tomorrow
    • I collect wood for gunwales etc on 24th
    • The garage is cleaned out (to store the Apache in - I'll have to do the work outside)
    • Storage/working trestle made
    • I have only the vaguest idea of where to position the seat (a bit back from centre )
    So to summarise - no actual progress but it's all happening inside my head.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    • I have only the vaguest idea of where to position the seat (a bit back from centre )
    So to summarise - no actual progress but it's all happening inside my head.
    The seat thing is tricky. I will be putting my yoke in centrally so I reckon I will fit that first then sit in the hull and work out how much room I need to get in and out the seat/kneeling position and then fit it there.

    I reckon that means (from some interesting carpet maneuvers) that the seat will be about 2'6.5" from the yoke which is the length of me kneeling upright (toe to knee) plus my hand on the gunwales just in front of me.

    I can change the seat later if its wrong but I guess its as good a place as any, so about 9 foot from the front. Will be interesting to see what others do but of course its personal to each person.

    As for the progress being mainly in the head I know the feeling, but at least there is room for me to work inside the garage - with the heater

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


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    i put mine just back from centre i've not fitted a yoke yet
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

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    It's slightly off topic but how much is the Apache bare hull?

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    Appache hulls are from £250 but have a look at this. Its not October any more but Stu is a member on here (regbella) so why not talk to him.
    Keith

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    Hmm this looks really good. Shame I missed the offer - I also can't afford one at the moment - not far off the price for making one myself ( and that wouldn't be anywhere near as robust) I wish I had the money...

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    Default Robbins a poor timber yard

    I used Robbins and they was pss poor

    The woman on the phone was (well lets say poor)
    The machining was very poor
    The timber was very very knotty
    One piece was snapped and taped up with robbins tape
    All piece's was bent
    Delivery was very slow
    They said they would replace some of it,i'm still waiting 10 days later
    The grain on some of the timber runs the wrong way
    More knots than a boy scout
    But I did ONLY spend £700.00

    Never NEVER NEVER! again!
    Regards
    A ped off boat builder
    This week I've mostly been painting aviators needed.

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    A friends father owns a forest which he uses for growing bizarre, exotic and native trees for his own woodworking. My friend made me a lovely beech table as a wedding present so I'm hoping that I can get some timber from him - gunwales, thwarts, seat timber and hopefully paddle blanks...
    Not sure whether it'll happen but could be nice...

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    Default A Plan Comes Together

    By this time next week I will have all the components for my Apache - hull, timber for gunwales & decks, seat, yoke, handles and thwarts. Although there is very little evidence yet of any action, a plan has been slowly fermenting in my head. Over some weeks I have built up a "scrapbook" of inspirational photos of canoe features that I like and that in some way I would like to replicate in the fitting out of my Apache hull. Many of these features and characteristics are frankly beyond me and my skills but some others .... maybe?

    I've purchased the seat etc. from Edscanoe.com and I'm pleased with what I have got for my money.



    The canoe will be fitted out for solo use and I have only the vaguest idea of precisely where to fit the seat - somewhere back from the centre (perhaps 2 feet?) with the yoke fitted slightly forward of centre (6 inches ?) - if the position of the yoke conflicts with the position of the seats I may explore the possibility of having a swinging or removable yoke.. When the hull comes I will simply lay the bits in place and make a judgement.

    The gunwales and decks will be in Ash. The wood is coming from Robins in Bristol. I have noted the mixed reports but have decided to take my chances with them - I'll let you know the results.

    I'd like the shape of the decks to blend smoothly with the line of the gunwales and the rather complicated formula I have arrived at is as follows:-
    There is a point where the gunwale changes from curving in to to curving out. From this point imagine a line at right angles towards the centre of the canoe which will intersect a similar line from the opposite gunwale. The point where these lines cross becomes the centre of a circle which just touches the gunwales and defines the shape of the deck.


    I'd like the inner gunwale to take on a "traditional" appearance and have decided to do this by routering recesses at 6 inch intervals (except where the decks , thwarts, seat and yoke will be). These "recesses will hopefully not only look pleasing but will be useful for securing items in the canoe. Here is a sketch of what I have in mind.



    To help create this I have made a pattern/jig as shown.



    The inner gunwale will be located in the central slot and the router bit will then follow the contours of the pattern to cut the recess in the gunwale.

    So there's the plan and as we all know a plan is a starting point from which to changes things once faced with the realities of execution.

    I'll let you know how it goes.

    If you can see any major flaws in the plan I'm quite prepared to change it even before I come to the execution.
    Apologies for the strange mixture of imperial and metric measurements. I think in feet and inches* (inasmuch as I think at all) but acknowledge that most of the rest of the world now only works in metric measurements.

    (* also includes rods, poles, perches, chains and furlongs.)
    Keith

  51. #51
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bbDave View Post
    oh and by the way i think u'll find yellow is far quicker than red
    Only because the flies LOVE yellow, so you have to paddle fast to escape!!!!

  52. #52
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    Keith. Another benefit of the slotted inwales is that water drains much better when you tip the canoe on its side. I've got that on my Prospector but not on the canoe you've seen. How will you make the decks? I think a good idea is to split them, i.e. cut the wood corner to corner and turn one bit over and glue the long edges. That way you have a centre line and the grain of the wood runs parallel to the edge of the boat, which looks nicer (I think). The seats etc. look very good.

    Garth

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoebees View Post
    I used Robbins and they was pss poor

    The woman on the phone was (well lets say poor)
    The machining was very poor
    The timber was very very knotty
    One piece was snapped and taped up with robbins tape
    All piece's was bent
    Delivery was very slow
    They said they would replace some of it,i'm still waiting 10 days later
    The grain on some of the timber runs the wrong way
    More knots than a boy scout
    But I did ONLY spend £700.00

    Never NEVER NEVER! again!
    Regards
    A ped off boat builder
    Canoebees did you sign for the timber in this condition? as i've said i've never had a problem from them.

    Keith you may need to turn the timber over and rout the other half your cutouts from the opposing direction so the tool is cutting into the work to save the grain breaking out which can happen (does that make sense?) but nothing a deft wipe with sandpaper can't hide
    Many shores i have sailed to in my canoe,often against strong winds.Choose the tree well my brother if it is to carry you to distant shores. :- Chief Dan George

  54. #54
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    Default Deck Plates anf inner gunwales.

    Keith how are planning to attach you inner gunwales to your deckplates?

    I have been thinking that I might tack and glus the together as the inner gunwale stops at the dec plates, and I assume that yours will be similar.

    I didn't want them not to be joined as I felt it left a weak point if any pressure was put on them.

    Pete
    Lakeland Pete


  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbDave View Post
    Keith you may need to turn the timber over and rout the other half your cutouts from the opposing direction so the tool is cutting into the work to save the grain breaking out which can happen (does that make sense?) but nothing a deft wipe with sandpaper can't hide
    Yes that makes perfect sense. That was the other reason for making the pattern/jig - to get a feel for the router and how to use it. I noticed the tendency to split the grain and found the solution to turn it over so the cutting blade is cutting into the good edge. I also scored the line to work to with a Stanley Knife so that (hopefully) any tendency to split along the grain ended at the scored line.

    Steep learning curve. The last thing I made out of wood that was meant to look nice (rather than just work) was a tea tray at school in 1962.
    Keith

  56. #56
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    Default Ready to go

    Well I collected by hull today, so I now have al the bits n pieces so its time to start I suppose.



    Having talked to Stu at apache today I am now happier at how to approach my gunwale fitting, just need to see if my local hardware shop has SS screws or I need to use Screwfix.

    Pete
    Last edited by MagiKelly; 19th-November-2007 at 08:45 PM. Reason: picture
    Lakeland Pete


  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Pete View Post

    just need to see if my local hardware shop has SS screws or I need to use Screwfix.

    Pete
    Nice colour on canoe & woodwork but thought you getting a bent seat or is it the camera angle. Good luck with the screws.

    Will you have enough time to complete outfitting?

    TGB
    May the gentleness of morning, greet your silent passage through endless waters...

    May all your winds be gentle. And for ww - May it rain the night before.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGB View Post
    Nice colour on canoe & woodwork but thought you getting a bent seat or is it the camera angle. Good luck with the screws.

    Will you have enough time to complete outfitting?

    TGB
    No the seat isn't a bucket one. I did think on this bt decided that I would keep it a flat version but instead I would angle the seat forwards to help kneeling. I was worried about distance from the bottom of the seat to the bottom of the hull, as I want to get it as low as possible and the bucket version could throw that out.

    Time! Mmmm what time? Mother has sold the old house so I seem to spend my entire time looking at other houses and checking out wiring, dry rot and lord knows what else

    I am confident that the canoe should be at least 90% by end of week, but aimaing to get it done for a first paddle on Sunday, before heading back up north. Shouldn't tke that long, seems to be about 8-9 hours so thats not too bad, some chilly nights to be had

    Pete

    P.S. Thanks MK for sorting the piccy, I am on AOL down here and it never seems to want to do the pictures.
    Lakeland Pete


  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Pete View Post
    P.S. Thanks MK for sorting the piccy, I am on AOL down here and it never seems to want to do the pictures.
    No problem, you had a double http://

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Pete View Post
    ... seem to spend my entire time looking at other houses and checking out wiring, dry rot and lord knows what else
    Will the new place be within an easy launch of some paddlable water or at least have storage for canoes? And have you made these points clear to you mother?

    TGB
    May the gentleness of morning, greet your silent passage through endless waters...

    May all your winds be gentle. And for ww - May it rain the night before.

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