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Thread: Mad River Legend 15

  1. #1
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    Default Mad River Legend 15

    Maker's Spec



    Specs

    Length 15' / 458 cm
    Width @ waterline 33" / 84.5 cm

    Weight 63 lbs / 28.4kg

    Max Capacity 850 lbs / 386 kg



    Features
    Shallow Arch Hull
    Moderate Rocker
    Cane Seats
    Shaped Ash Carry Yoke
    IQ Cupholders (2) (IQ & IQ2 only)

    Colors
    Red
    Green

    Maker' Write Up
    Class II-III capable compact tandem river tourer or spacious solo tripper. If your paddling is more river than lake, this boat has the credentials. Gunwales in IQ2 or wood.

  2. #2
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    This boat is a good all-rounder. It is a very good WW boat, and is ok on the flat. What is brilliant is how light it is. I can car top this solo!

    The standard seat hangers are too short though, the seats being too high resulting in an awkward and tippy paddling position.

    This is easily remedied by either getting new hangers from the retailer or making some Ash spacers. I lowered my seats by nearly 40mm. I also fitted a Kneeling twhart 350mm behind the yoke.
    www.kayakcoach.co.uk - Wilf's personal website

  3. #3
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    I couldn't agree more about the seat height.

    First paddled one of these with the seats unadjusted and hated it.

    Second time the seat hangers had been lowered and thought it was brilliant, really responsive.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
    I couldn't agree more about the seat height.

    First paddled one of these with the seats unadjusted and hated it.

    Second time the seat hangers had been lowered and thought it was brilliant, really responsive.
    Absolutely. I have spoken to Mark at WWC about this and he understands. I lowered the seats on mine and it is very different. Customers who paddled the boat before and after the change didn't realise it was the same boat.

    Ray
    www.RayGoodwin.com

    Paddling a Venture Prospector (in CoreLite X) using Downcreek Paddles

  5. #5
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    Default legend 15 seat height

    Just waiting for mine to arrive, ordered it from Paddle Works at Llangolen. I spoke to Dom the lad in the shop there and the suppliers are aware of this problem so that leads me to believe they are going to do something about it??

  6. #6
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    A great boat and one that stays pretty dry after paddling the Lower Tryweryn yesterday most water was pushed off the front with very little coming inside.
    Thanks Wilf for the seat spacers i will fit them soon.

    Alex

    Last edited by MABBO; 15th-October-2007 at 02:11 PM. Reason: pic

  7. #7
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    Default MR Legend

    Nice picture! I must admit the red does look sexy too!

    Wilf! Seat spacers! any more??????
    Last edited by Mitch; 15th-October-2007 at 08:49 PM.
    Mitch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch164 View Post
    Nice picture! I must admit the red does look sexy too!

    Wilf! Seat spacers! any more??????
    No problem at all. I'm happy to provide these to people as a favour, there is a small material and postage cost though. I use solid ash along the whole length of the hanger. It's sections is appox 38mmx21mm. I'm not sure of cost, but probably £6.00 a pair in postage.

    I can personalise them for you as well if you wish. But for a small number of SOtP friends only, I'll happily personalise the spacing strips in the Legend Hangers.




    Environmentally better that thrwoing the old hanges and making new ones!
    Last edited by wilf; 16th-October-2007 at 08:38 AM. Reason: to add photo
    www.kayakcoach.co.uk - Wilf's personal website

  9. #9
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    Hi Wilf

    Seems a generous offer ...........

    Cheers

    Sprout
    Last edited by Sprout; 16th-October-2007 at 10:00 AM. Reason: wish I could spell

  10. #10
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    I am intrigued by the hull profile of this boat. It appears to be more or less flat bottomed, and I understood this to be less than stable, particularly when heeled over - hardly a characteristic of a WW boat. However when I paddled one it felt very stable, and very easy and stable to edge. Can anyone explain how this works?
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    I am intrigued by the hull profile of this boat. It appears to be more or less flat bottomed, and I understood this to be less than stable, particularly when heeled over - hardly a characteristic of a WW boat. However when I paddled one it felt very stable, and very easy and stable to edge. Can anyone explain how this works?

    PHEW ...... I am so pleased, someone else has noticed this......thanks Matto

    It is supposed to have a shallow arch but compared to my NC Prospector [which also has a shallow arch] it is a flat as a pancake.

    I was beginning to think I had been sold a duff [I have not been able to compare it to another Legend, which has not helped with these worrying thoughts].

    As you correctly point out though, it is very stable, and very easy to edge. It glides over the water much more smoothly and quietly [yes, I mean quietly] then the Prospector......I love it. .... but not the seat height, the naff yoke and carry handles or the flimsy bow/stern deck plates.

  12. #12

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    I've had mine for over a year now and I think its great. Not yet had an accidental capsize since buying it, even in grade 2 water!

    Only thing to be aware of is that I find the outer collects 'dimples' quite easily, especially when compared to my Royalex Prospector. Don't know why, any one else noticed this yet.

    Ray H

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    I am intrigued by the hull profile of this boat. It appears to be more or less flat bottomed, and I understood this to be less than stable, particularly when heeled over - hardly a characteristic of a WW boat. However when I paddled one it felt very stable, and very easy and stable to edge. Can anyone explain how this works?
    As I understand it, a flat bottomed hull gives the greatest primary stability (try turning a windsurf board or plank over in the water then try turning a bottle). The trick with a flat bottomed hull is to give it enough secondary stability to make it work in WW, flat bottomed hulls tend to tip with waves while a round bottomed hull stays upright and the wave rolls underneath it.

    I've never paddled a Legend, or seen one in the flesh, so I'm guessing from photos here. I think they've flared the sides, as the hull is heeled the flared sides hit the waterline before a straight side does, giving the extra secondary stability. The bilge curve can make a big difference too, but from Mabbo's pic it looks like the hull is flared to a few inches below the gunnel.

    I like quite like flat bottomed boats in WW, they sideslip nicely when paddling slower than the current and have a lose, skiddy feeling to them that's fun to play with (and great for splashing people as you join them in an eddy), if the legend keeps lots of secondary stability too, it's got to be a winner.

    It's all just a guess from photos, with no practical knowledge of this particular boat, so if it's bourne out by the real shape of the hull, or you know better let me know. I also hope this post makes some sense, I did a lot of reading before I designed and built a boat a few years ago, what I read generally confused me.

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    I test paddled one on Sunday at the symposium and was surprised what a good flat water boat it was. It just felt right straight away. Now all I've got to do is convince my good lady I need a new canoe ahead of her getting a car that doesn't overheat.
    One of the coaches I spoke to on Saturday described the outer layer of Royalex as being like plasticine (modelling clay to our transatlatic cousins). His boat was full of dimples, mind you it had taken a fair beating by the looks of things.

    Mike
    To every opinion there is always an equal and opposite opinion.
    (Newtons fourth law)

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    Default seat spacers

    Hi Wilf,

    Are you still doing the spacers and hardware to fit them. I could do with 2 of them if you are please.

    Thank you in advance
    D

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    Hi Mendo, send me a PM with your address and I'll see what I can rustle up.

    Wilf

  17. #17

    Question

    Ok folks burning question time,
    As an all round boat for : rivers, estuaries, tidal lochs, canals and lakes?
    what do you reckon?
    Last edited by Timinwales; 22nd-June-2008 at 09:42 PM. Reason: typo/icon

  18. #18
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    rivers......... CHECK
    estuaries......... CHECK
    tidal lochs......... CHECK
    canals (why on earth would you want to go there, but) ......... CHECK
    lakes......... CHECK


    It takes takes some beating.

    However, another boat to consider would be the MR Reflection. This is only available in 17' at the moment, but shorter boats to make a re-appearance soon! (The Reflection was a Dagger design, now reintroduced by Mad River Canoe)

  19. #19
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    Agreed, the Reflection is more of a touring boat with finer bows and IIRC assymetrical. If you are more concerned with speed (ease of forward propulsion) and less with waves then the Reflection would be a good alternative.

  20. #20

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    Thanks Guys,
    Wilf, Adrian,
    Brecon canal is about 40 mins from me, hence canals but fair question, as the coast s only 20 mins, some dodgey currents and really severe rip there though, but good for surfing....hmm another hazard surfers, I need the boat and lots of praccy with it before playing there.

    I'm like most folk after a ''do it all boat'' I know this is going to be (like everything else) a trade off of one thing for another, but am working the premise that I should grow into or grow with the boat if that makes sense?

    Size wise I'm working to 15' big enough to do an overnighter or short trip tandem, or solo, and small enough to play in also I can just about store it, and the car should cope without too many dramas, plus I need to be able to car top it solo after a day on the water I'm under no illusion this can be harder than it sounds esp after sometime away from paddling

    At the end of the day it's options, and I'm trying to cover the base's before I spend money, I'm not quite there yet (but neither is the cash) with a bit of luck and no small amount of devine intervention things might fall into place together.

  21. #21
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    Tim, just in case it wasn't obvious with me giving advice on a Refection, I too paddle a Legend and really rate it, I'm on my second.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    Tim, just in case it wasn't obvious with me giving advice on a Refection, I too paddle a Legend and really rate it, I'm on my second.
    I'll take that as a recomendation, which is reassuring, as it mans my thinking is'nt horrendousy off the mark, all of my previous paddling has been kayaks, and to be fair not for a few years.

  23. #23
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    I know what you mean about the seat spacing. Would it be possible to order some seat spacings Wilf.

  24. #24
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    Hi Colum, thanks for your PM.

    I'm not in a position to make any spacers a the moment, very sorry. I reckon if you were to buy some inch by inch and three quater softwood, it would do quite nicely as a stop-gap.

    Wilf

  25. #25
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    Depending on how high you like to kneel another option is to swap the front and back hangers, as the bow seat hangers are shorter than the stern seat hangers. I've done this on mine and it's made an appreciable difference - just be warned that the job takes a lot longer than you might think (or it did me anyway ). Mind you soon the seat is coming closer to the centre, and at that point I will put in different hangers to make it slope for more comfy kneeling.
    'Of all the paths you choose in life, make sure some of them are wet'

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    Of course if you want to move the seat nearer the centre, it usually means a new seat because it won't be long enough.

  27. #27
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    This my main irritation with this boat. I am thinking seriously about getting one, but it looks like straight away a number of fairly major/expensive refits will be necessary - hardly ideal in a new boat.
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  28. #28
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    Default Refit

    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    This my main irritation with this boat. I am thinking seriously about getting one, but it looks like straight away a number of fairly major/expensive refits will be necessary - hardly ideal in a new boat.
    People choose this boat,I would think, mainlyfor it's hull profile and any tandem boat that is tobe refitted mainly for solo use will incur similar expense.
    As I have difficulty kneeling I too will consider moving the seats. I will proberly take both seats out and use the bow seat in the stern as it's wider bringing it a little forward and then place a thwart to brace where i have taken out the bow seat.
    But for now I will continue sitting reverse onthe bow seat to paddle solo.

    Cheers
    Roy

  29. #29
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    I moved everything around to get the kneeling thwart where I wanted it and lowered the seats at the same time using cut down dowels that you can buy from most open canoe stores. It took a couple of days to sort out but well worth it. I had played with a Legend on moving water so knew what they were like before I bought but what has surprised me is how well it paddles solo on flatwater. I didn't realise that it was possible to fall in love with a canoe! So much so that my Traveller which I'd owned and paddled for nearly 15 years has been sold .

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    This my main irritation with this boat. I am thinking seriously about getting one, but it looks like straight away a number of fairly major/expensive refits will be necessary - hardly ideal in a new boat.

    To be honest Matto, I don't think it's too bad. All I have done is lowered the bow seat and put in a kneeling thwart.

    My KT is close to the yoke to, about 14 inches. Any further away and it is the same distance as the bow seat, so little point.

    I may well take the yoke out and put a thwart in nearer the bow, but I often have to carry the boat, so we'll see.

    W

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    I agreed with Roy. If you buy a 15' tandem boat and want to paddle it solo, it is likely that you will have to do some work on it. How much work is down to personal preferrence and I know many people who add a KT.

    Lowering the seats is the extra one. It seems as if the seats are set at a level for sitting on not kneeling but I would be interested to know how the height compares with other boats out of the shop. My old Dagger Legend I ended up swapping the bow and stern hangers so that the more central seat was lower.

    I would be surprised if just anyone could buy a boat and be sure that it would suit them, given the many strange shapes and sizes people come in.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I agreed with Roy. If you buy a 15' tandem boat and want to paddle it solo, it is likely that you will have to do some work on it. How much work is down to personal preferrence and I know many people who add a KT.
    Agreed. Roly seems happy to paddle his with just a KT added, twopigs (I think) has done a fairly major refit, and I'll be doing a fairly major refit (stern seat stays but with airbag underneath, bow seat out and new sloping/lowered seat closer to the centre, yoke out and replaced with sailing thwart further away from new solo seat (but yoke retained so can be added in with wingnuts as required for getting the boat on/off the car solo), boat laced for airbags, kneeling mat glued in. Basically turning it into a solo boat, but without completely removing the tandem option). All that stuff were on my to do list for the prospector, I just never got round to it.

    The high seats are an annoyance as it wouldn't be hard for MR to just put in longer hangers, but you'd need to add a KT or move seats with any tandem boat for solo.

    Oh, and the IQ2 gunwales suck, but the hull profile is great which is the reason for buying the boat
    'Of all the paths you choose in life, make sure some of them are wet'

  33. #33
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    Exclamation Hull thickness of the Legend

    This may seem a bit off the subject, but can anyone tell me the exact thickness of the Legend hull at the gunwale? I am attaching some IQ 2 gunwales to another (non-Mad River) boat and would like to know the hull thickness they are made for.

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    Default Kneeling Twart

    Hi, just about to collect a Legend, its the first open Iv actually owned.
    Can anyone tell me the best distance to fit KT from the carrying thwart.
    Im average build 5'8 tall incase that has a bearing.
    Ive seen them fitted at varying distances from 14 to 18 inches from the carry twart.
    Thanks for any help given...Tomo

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomo View Post
    Hi, just about to collect a Legend, its the first open Iv actually owned.
    Can anyone tell me the best distance to fit KT from the carrying thwart.
    Im average build 5'8 tall incase that has a bearing.
    Ive seen them fitted at varying distances from 14 to 18 inches from the carry twart.
    Thanks for any help given...Tomo
    I doubt if there is any fixed distance...... it depends upon your shape. Mine is about 18 inches back, but then I'm 6' and only 11 stone so I can afford to put the KT back to get the trim only just bow light. If you're heavier then having the kT 18" back will make the boat a little more bow light than mine. Have a little paddle and experiment with where you kneel with an experienced paddler watching. A good tip is to add insulating foam under and behind the thwart to insulate your feet a bit more!
    You don't stop playing because you get old - you get old because you stop playing.

  36. #36
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    Default Legend 15 kneeling thwart

    The Legend 15 is intended to be paddled backwards solo using the back edge of the seat as a kneeling thwart. You don't need to fit another thwart, it just uses up the space you need to climb back in on a self rescue.

    I also needed new seat hangers to lower the seats.

    The overbags for airbags are the only fitting for the IQ2 gunwhales I would recommend.
    Last edited by JS1; 11th-March-2009 at 08:56 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS1 View Post
    The Legend 15 is intended to be paddled backwards solo using the back edge of the seat as a kneeling thwart. You don't need to fit another thwart, it just uses up the space you need to climb back in on a self rescue.
    That's what MR says, but in reality that will trim most people too stern heavy
    'Of all the paths you choose in life, make sure some of them are wet'

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
    That's what MR says, but in reality that will trim most people too stern heavy
    Yes it does but I like to keep the nose up through waves. I also leave my kitbag under the other seat and this helps a little. You've now got me thinking of a kneeling thwart just in front of the seat, still paddling backwards so I can still use my thigh straps.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS1 View Post
    You've now got me thinking of a kneeling thwart just in front of the seat, still paddling backwards so I can still use my thigh straps.
    This is exactly how I set up my KT in my Legend.

    Happy to get some photo's if it would help you?

    Cheers

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprout View Post
    Happy to get some photo's if it would help you?
    I've seen a few so don't really need photos, thanks. I also fitted the kneeling thwart to my wife's Horizon so have some experience. A bit of experimentation is in order to find the right place. I am also finding the seat is gradually sagging from sitting on one edge all the time.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprout View Post
    This is exactly how I set up my KT in my Legend.

    Happy to get some photo's if it would help you?

    Cheers

    Tim
    Hi Tim

    I am going to fit a kneeling thwart into my new legend, but not yet decided where, so would appreciate a couple of pictures of your set up if possible.

    Terry
    It's not getting what we want that makes us happy, but being able to appreciate what we already have.

  42. #42
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    Will do so tomorrow

  43. #43
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    Default MR Legend 15

    On my Legend the kneeling thwart is between the rear seat and the yoke, nearer the yoke). Any change of trim needing weight (me) shifting to the stern only requires clearing the (lower) thwart rather than the (higher) yoke. This was how mine arrived from Mitch when we swapped canoes, and I am happy with this. Oddly when I am using the kneeling thwart with Megan(9) on the front seat and the bag of gear under the rear seat, the trim is about right. We had a very satisfactory run down the Upper Wye in this fashion, and being nearer the center of the canoe gave a good degree of manouverability that was lacking when we were set up using the seats as standard.
    Richard,
    What a long strange trip its been.......

  44. #44
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    Terry, As promised:











    Hope this helps

    Cheers

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprout View Post
    Terry, As promised:

    Hope this helps

    Cheers

    Tim
    Thanks Tim, very helpful indeed.

    Terry
    It's not getting what we want that makes us happy, but being able to appreciate what we already have.

  46. #46
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    Thanks, Tim,

    I didn't realise the side spacers went that way round, I fitted the last set upside down!

    I've now fitted a kneeling thwart to the Legend, very slightly further forward than yours to avoid the small gap to the seat but it's really comfortable. I just need to try it on the river, can't wait.

    John

  47. #47
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    Hi John

    The spacers can be fitted both ways...... I just found bending the bolts easier the way I did it.

    I am thinking of moving mine a little more, probably using the further of the two bolt holes as the inner one [if that makes sense ]

    Cheers

    Tim
    Last edited by Sprout; 16th-March-2009 at 08:57 PM. Reason: grammar

  48. #48
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    I think that Sprout has the hangers in upside down. There really should be no need for bending of bolts.

    I have a new version of my QR thwart 14 inches behind the yoke on the stern side. I am not worried about its proximity to the Yoke because it is QR.

    I now have 3 trim options depending on kit an conditions.

    I have my sailing seat in the bow position (though I have not installed a mast foot yet).

    W
    www.kayakcoach.co.uk - Wilf's personal website

  49. #49
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    Hi Wilf
    can we see some pictures of the mk3 QR Kneeling thwart. It's good to see how designs evolve.

    cheers Mike
    To every opinion there is always an equal and opposite opinion.
    (Newtons fourth law)

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    I guess I will have to post some images of mine soon then....
    Very basic. Thanks Mitch.
    Richard.
    What a long strange trip its been.......

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilf View Post
    I think that Sprout has the hangers in upside down.
    that figures, oh well..........it works

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemorini View Post
    Hi Wilf
    can we see some pictures of the mk3 QR Kneeling thwart. It's good to see how designs evolve.

    cheers Mike
    Of course, I'll try to do it this week.
    www.kayakcoach.co.uk - Wilf's personal website

  53. #53
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    Default Just got one . . .

    Interested in kneeling thawts, seat hight, paddling on the sea, flat and white water.

    So far, the boat has performed well on a windy sea. Boat speed seemed good but I must admit, in the wind, going in a straight land was a challenge lol

    SML

  54. #54
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    Hi SML,

    Another idea to throw in amongst the many...My yoke has wingnuts now instead of nuts, that way I can keep it in for the carry and then take it off and stash it under the airbags...

    This way when I get to the 'must make' reverse ferry move I can slip off the KT move my weight forward and unweight the stern, this gives me a bigger 'work area'...then at the end of the trip refit it and then I'm good to go for the carry.

    You need good mats glued in though...and that's another story!

    I'm working on a better system than wingnuts 'cos in the winter my hands get cold and the nuts are difficult to grip!

  55. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Peak District
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Oh forgot to say...if you've got a bigger 'work area' you can move your weight forward when its windy and that will help keep the boat on track to...

  56. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Fishguard, Pembrokeshire, United Kingdom, 108305025857606, Fishguard
    Posts
    34

    Default Cool . . .

    Thanks for this. KT is a must I can see now. Wind is an issue, so the 'work area' and the ability to move foreword all make sense too.

    I tried a strip of neoprene under my knees today and this made a difference.


    Cheers

    S

    PS I need to work on carrying and lifting. I can't get the leg-end on my T5 on my own yet

  57. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Peak District
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Roller bar and a small, folding step ladder for you then...flipping a Legend off the ground and onto your shoulders takes a bit of practice...get someone to show you how to do it the easy way otherwise you'll hurt your back.

    Carrying it is the easy bit, as long as it's not windy

    Loading it onto your van...see above!

    ...or of course you could just swop it for a spec boat, then it would fit inside nicely, easy really

  58. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Fishguard, Pembrokeshire, United Kingdom, 108305025857606, Fishguard
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Hi

    Thanks fro this, will give it a try


    SML

  59. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Watford, Hertfordshire
    Posts
    67

    Default

    Hi People... I've been out this weekend in my new legend, albeit on flat only, and can feel straight-away the height issue with the seat, although an easy issue to fix... However, can anyone advise as to how much to drop the seat down, and if necersary add a longer bolt to reduce the height further.

    Also on a KT perspective, what thoughts do people have as to which side the KT should be on? Having tested it this weekend the KT would be the same distance from the yoke as shown in Sprout's images... are there pro's and cons as to which side I should set it up. I will be using it for both tandem and solo, if that has any bearing...

    Suggestions would be well received...

  60. #60
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Lakes
    Posts
    13,059

    Default

    Seems a good placement, as this will allow for both solo & tandem set-ups and still give plenty of leg-room when needed. Plus, if you want a break from kneeling, it's easy to sit. But I'd flip the blocks round and slightly countersink for the nuts.

    TGB
    May the gentleness of morning, greet your silent passage through endless waters...

    May all your winds be gentle. And for ww - May it rain the night before.

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