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Thread: Possible new law to ban posting knifes.

  1. #1
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    Default Possible new law to ban posting knifes.

    There is are amendments planned to the current UK knife laws. One of these is to ban knifes from being bought online and delivered direct to your door. There will be a bit of a workaround as you may be able to get them delivered to a collection point.

    While I am sure common knifes will be available locally to most people rescue knifes and the like would often need to be bought online. I think the problems for law abiding citizens will be far more than any inconvenience to those wishing to commit a knife crime.

    If you do not agree with this proposal there is a petition, which I have signed, however I do fear this is going to happen regardless. The petition is here, https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/222776?

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    Signed.
    Big Al.

    Only when the last tree has died
    and the last river been poisoned
    and the last fish been caught
    will we realise we cannot eat money.
    ~Cree Indian Proverb

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    Thanks for highlighting this, which I'd picked up on and signed a few days back but forgot to share.

    It is, in my opinion, completely pointless from an anti-crime point of view, so will just cause potentially major hardship for small specialist retailers and craftsmen, and inconvenience to the rest of us.

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    Signed.

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    Signed
    Calefactio orbis? Culus meus!!

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    I have signed it, the laws around ownership and carry of knives are daft. The government got it wrong last time when they restricted the use of lock knives as they re-interpreted their own definition. When they did this they made things a lot less safe for all of the law abiding folk who would benefit from the extra safety a lock knife provides. I have no hope they will get it right this time.

    Ultimately anyone wanting to get their hands on a knife doesn’t have to look much further than the nearest kitchen. Whether it is a lock knife, kitchen knife, slip joint or a butterfly knife they are all capable of being used as a tool or to do harm. Putting them into different categories where one is legal to carry and another is illegal to own doesn’t make sense to me.

    Nick

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quickbeam View Post
    Ultimately anyone wanting to get their hands on a knife doesn’t have to look much further than the nearest kitchen. Whether it is a lock knife, kitchen knife, slip joint or a butterfly knife they are all capable of being used as a tool or to do harm. Putting them into different categories where one is legal to carry and another is illegal to own doesn’t make sense to me.

    Nick
    Me neither.

    Surely, it should be down to intent. If you are camping, boating, fishing, etc then there's no reason why you shouldn't have a decent knife with you.

    Granddad with his old multi-tool on his belt is breaking the law because it's a locking blade !!
    (that's me then)

    I would bet that I wasn't five years old when I was given my first knife; a little Victorinox. I was given a sheath-knife for my tenth birthday. At senior school, the TD teacher would bollock us if we didn't have penknife to sharpen pencils.
    We made blades in metalwork and handles in woodwork. We even made throwing stars with assistance from a teacher. Nobody ever got stabbed at my school and it was a large town comprehensive. Ok, one or two of us might have ended up with a penknife in the top of a foot whilst playing chicken :-)

    If I wanted a lethal stabbing weapon, I could find twenty or more in any kitchen or toolbox. Or, I could sharpen a stick.

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    i can't vote as i'm not in the UK but am with you there.
    smells like pacebo politics to me... we have that over here as well, with other things.

  9. #9
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    Signed.

    The vast majority of knife crime is committed with knives taken out of the kitchen, not bought over the Internet and posted through the mail. This is a glaring example of 'being seen to be doing something' while achieving little to nothing practical.
    -------------------------
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    Signed. The problem started when the legislators decided the courts couldn't be trusted to use their judgement to decide what was an offensive weapon, and started legislating to prohibit or restrict specific objects. One result is the number of attacks using chemicals like acid and bleach. The criminals will always find weapons, and the police and courts need the power to arrest and convict when they have evidence of intent to use anything as an offensive weapon.

  11. #11
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    I signed it already
    MarkL
    www.canoemassifcentral.com
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  12. #12

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    Signed. ����

  13. #13

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    Signed, but article 16 does allow as a defence to an article 15 offence that the seller reasonably believed that the knife was for sporting use. I don't like the "guilty until proven innocent" order of the bill. I suggest writing to your MP* might be a better approach than signing the petition though.

    * well, maybe not in the case of some MPs....

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiKelly View Post
    There is are amendments planned to the current UK knife laws. One of these is to ban knifes from being bought online and delivered direct to your door. There will be a bit of a workaround as you may be able to get them delivered to a collection point.

    While I am sure common knifes will be available locally to most people rescue knifes and the like would often need to be bought online. I think the problems for law abiding citizens will be far more than any inconvenience to those wishing to commit a knife crime.

    If you do not agree with this proposal there is a petition, which I have signed, however I do fear this is going to happen regardless. The petition is here, https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/222776?
    signed

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

  15. #15

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    I feel I am at risk of paddling against the flow on this one!

    I get the issue at the heart of this, but for those of us who shoot, is it such a major inconvenience that we can no longer buy guns online without having them delivered to a dealer?

    As long as the 'pick up place' is reasonable and logical, so not the Spar shop or a place 175 mile away, but maybe a canoe shop for a canoe knife a gun shop for a field knife or a Post Office etc, then I don't really see a problem.

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    signed, although iv'e recently bought a "Boar" knife from TBS to unlikely to need another.

  17. #17
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    The Bill can be read at https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2017-2019/0232/cbill_2017-20190232_en_1.htm

    article 16 does allow as a defence to an article 15 offence that the seller reasonably believed that the knife was for sporting use
    It does, but unfortunately sub-section 16 (9) defines sporting use as "a competitive sport involving combat between individuals". They don't seem to appreciate that knife has other uses than as a weapon.

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    signed.

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    What a load of rubbish, Signed

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    I have written to my MP making a case for s15 to be removed or, if it is retained, that the exemption for sporting purposes in s16(9) is expanded to include knives used as safety equipment in outdoor sports.
    Last edited by Chris_B; 3rd-July-2018 at 11:49 AM. Reason: typo

  21. #21
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    Signed.

    Although the daily occurrence of knife related deaths/attacks sickens me, I really can't see this helping.

  22. #22

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    I am trying to understand the impetus for the proposed limits on (I think) the internet sale of knives. There's a fair bit of stuff from the Press & BBC etc about increases in "knife crime" (which they don't seem to define, but anyway..), but I'm trying to grasp the internet part of the problem. Is there some kind of "trail" leading authorities to believe that on-line ordering has something to do with that? Or, are there certain knives which can't be legally sold in the UK, but that people are ordering from outside the country? (That's actually true here in recent months with regard to some 'locking blade' type knives, but Canadian Border Services seize any such orders at the border). Can you still buy ordinary common-or-garden knives (e.g. river knives, fixed-blade hunting knives etc etc)on-line, or does this proposal cover all kinds of knives? I'm trying to grasp what sort of issue the proposal(s) are targeting, & not having much luck. Any help much appreciated.

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    I think possibly that buying over the internet needs less proof of age. You have to be over ?18? to buy knives / axes I think. It is easy to tick a box to confirm you are 18, but more difficult to give photo ID in a shop. Having to deliver to a non residential property may put the emphasis on checking age onto the business owner??
    Apart from the 'sporting' aspect, I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing.
    Sam

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    Don't waste your time sk8r, it's a knee jerk political reaction to be seen to be doing something and will probably have zero effect on knife crime.... On your other points

    flick knives, gravity knives, balisongs and any bladed item that can only be a weapon are illegal in the UK with some exceptions (historical etc) These cannot be sold or carried but if you have them in your home they are ok.... (although this bill may change that...)
    UKBA should stop all these coming in from abroad but unfortunately are also seizing knives which can be (and are being) sold in the UK. The only way to get a seized item back is by appeal/legal action.
    The proposal covers all types of knives, even kitchen knives and in fact depending on the definition of a bladed product (is or has a blade, and is capable of causing a serious injury to a person which involves cutting that person’s skin. ) may well apply to a lot of things! box cutters, lawn mowers, razors, scissors....??? dunno

    The bill is supposed to stop under 18s from getting their hand on big choppy things via mail order but most places require a credit card which is over 18.... They may now have to go into the kitchen instead... These knives are effectively classed as the same. The wee one has a 5.5cm blade.



    So heaven help you if you are a UK based knifemaker
    Cheers,

    Alan


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    sk8r, the overall intent is to reduce the number of teenage gang assaults and murders, using knives, in London and other cities. Existing law allows you to buy any kind of knife except one with a spring-out blade, but not to carry anything over 3" or with a locking blade in any public place, with "lawful authority or reasonable excuse". Lawful authority, for example, allows the soldiers at Buckingham Palace to carry bayonets. Reasonable excuse means whatever the court thinks it means - there's probably some precedent for interpretation but I don't know. Police officers who post on forums such as this have said they wouldn't arrest somebody in paddling gear with a river knife. However, the current law isn't stopping knife attacks although in some cases people have been using caustic chemicals such as bleach or acid to make assaults but avoid arrest for carrying.

    So this new law would prohibit under 18's from buying knives. To make that work, mail order sales also have to be stopped. if you're in a shop, face to face, the seller can judge your age and ask for proof of age if necessary. With mail order, delivered to house or locker, they can't. You could legally mail order to collect at a local shop. So the proposed law would prohibit the sale of ANY bladed item to U18s or by mail order to home or locker.

    Unfortunately, the law would also affect those over 18, those outside cities, those who only want knives as tools, safety gear, etc, and I'd expect that the gangs would just steal kitchen knives or improvise so it won't actually make a significant difference to them.

  26. #26

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    Thanks all. That does clear the murk a bit, although those comments do make me think (from afar, obviously) that these measures aren't really going to have much effect on criminals, of whatever age. Maybe the legislators could be a bit more clear that they don't mean kitchenware.. I mean, is there a household anywhere that doesn't have a least one fairly large sharp and pointed knife in the kitchen? I shall continue pottering on into my dotage, befuddled by most modern 'current affairs', shaking my head a little...

    (On a much brighter note, stand by in the next month for a little report on another Old-Age-Pensioner-lady trip north of the Arctic watershed, into the land of little trees... leaving shortly... )

  27. #27

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    So, that petition....what Human Right does it contravene in relation to the housebound? I assume their right to buy a knife you would only ever use in a canoe or a wood, which they can't do because they are housebound! And I know loads of tradesmen, none of who get knives delivered mail order to their home address, they all go to Travis Perkins or Screwfix and get a huge discount and a free cup of tea!

    The bloke who wrote that needs a damn good talking to about sticking to the point (pardon the pun). It could have been worded waaaay better, and got a lot more people onside. Not everything is a Human Rights issue!

  28. #28
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    I agree regarding human rights, I wouldn't have put that in, but since it applies to all blades products, you can't mail order a kitchen knife, which could be a problem if you're housebound. It's also any residential address not just your own, so if you buy bladed tools from Travis Perkins along with your materials and take advantage of free delivery to the house you're working on that could be illegal.

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    I agree that outlawing online sales of knives is over the top. Online selling is the future and retailers will close if they can't use that method. People are beginning to accept (and expect) it as the norm. It would be interesting to see statistics regarding the types of knives used in crimes. My guess is that kitchen knives and 'Stanley' knives would figure quite high on the list.
    On a personal note for EDC I like my Joker or an Opinel. Both take a good edge and are very convenient but with a non-locking blade, (well the opinels have a lockable blade). I would never try any sort of activity with a non-locking/lockable blade that wasn't a simple cut. I learned that when I was a lot younger after cuts and near misses. I have collected several bushcraft knives over the years but I really like the Wood Jewel line. Take a very keen edge.
    I have signed.
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    If you feel strongly about this, you should send a written submission to the public bill comittee instead of filling out an online petition that nobody will pay the slightest bit of attention to. This is the "official" mechanism for you to stick your oar in on parliamentary affairs and is the simgle most likely way fo getting your oppinion heard by the people responsible for making the law. You need to do it soon if you're going to.

    Of most importance would be highlighting any unintended/unanticipated consequences of their proposals.

    https://www.parliament.uk/business/n...-weapons-bill/
    "I'm not getting in a boat which is DESIGNED to go upside down."

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    Stinkwheel makes a highly relevant point, I'm working on my submission just now on the basis of unintended/unanticipated consequences. The petition is fine for initially getting attention and as a signee I think you'll automatically be sent a link to everything you need in order to make a submission. You might want to consider if anything else in there affects you - e.g. I'm affected as a low-output knife maker (most of my stuff is dealt with in person so it's not a huge deal but still...) but I also use several other corrosive substances for knife making/metal work and I also make my own soap and currently buy my caustic soda online. Also as a gun owner, okay so not directly affected this bill but it contains a further erosion of gun-ownership rights with no correlation with crime. Then there's also a lack of clarity on the revised flick knife designation - this may be interpretated to include some one-hand opening knives (could affect folding rescue knives).

    Quote Originally Posted by stinkwheel View Post
    If you feel strongly about this, you should send a written submission to the public bill comittee instead of filling out an online petition that nobody will pay the slightest bit of attention to. This is the "official" mechanism for you to stick your oar in on parliamentary affairs and is the simgle most likely way fo getting your oppinion heard by the people responsible for making the law. You need to do it soon if you're going to.

    Of most importance would be highlighting any unintended/unanticipated consequences of their proposals.

    https://www.parliament.uk/business/n...-weapons-bill/
    Last edited by son goku; 12th-July-2018 at 05:37 AM.

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    Wouldn’t this proposal also put a stop to U.K. consumers importing knives from outside the U.K.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quickbeam View Post
    Wouldn’t this proposal also put a stop to U.K. consumers importing knives from outside the U.K.?
    I don't think that importing the knives are the problem here but I believe this will also have an impact of the amount is being imported each year. I believe that you will not be allowed to sell them online. The law does not stop you from selling them in a brick and mortar shop I would imagine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw View Post

    The bill is supposed to stop under 18s from getting their hand on big choppy things via mail order
    The proposed bill applies to everyone in regards to the mail order issue, not just under 18s

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    The proposed bill would allow mail order of a specially commissioned knife but not a standard model. I'm sure everyone would agree that this is just daft and was probably included to placate specialist knife makers but if interpreted accurately, probably doesn't.

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    If you feel strongly about this, you should send a written submission to the public bill comittee
    Thank you, Stinkwheel. I wasn't aware that the public could do that (and I'm disappointed in my MP who has sent me a reply telling me that that the Bill will be considered by the Committee, but not whether she will pass on my concerns or telling me I can submit them myself).

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    Could play merry hell with the on-line sale of woodworking tools.
    This post may vanish at any moment.

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    I have sent my submission to the parliamentary committee. In writing it, I have realised that the ban on mail order purchasing is the minor problem. Section 19 of the Bill not only redefines what a flick knife is, it also makes it illegal to possess one, rather than (as at present) to supply one to anyone else. As currently worded, it's likely to make it illegal for me to own either of the knives I currently take paddling, and there's no "reasonable excuse" defence.

    The members of the Public Bill Committee are listed here. If your MP is on the committee please consider writing to them to express your concern (MP's can only deal with their own constituents).

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    The definition of a flick knife reads like what I have always thought a flick knife to be. What on earth are you carrying?

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    Forget what you think a flick knife is, read the words as they are written and see if you think they could describe a diving knife, which is released from the sheath by pressing a button on the sheath, or a folding knife, which has a stud on the blade that I can push to open it one handed.

    What's changed is that it used to say that the button or other device to release the blade had to be on the handle (so a button or stud on the blade or sheath was OK), now it can now be anywhere. The definition is poor, it says "automatically" and then "manual pressure" - if it needs manual pressure, it's not automatic, but then what does it mean? I don't want to risk jail to find out.
    Last edited by Chris_B; 19th-July-2018 at 01:19 PM.

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    That description would certainly cover assisted openers which have always been right on the edge of the law. I suspect this is what they are trying to catch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_B View Post
    I have sent my submission to the parliamentary committee. In writing it, I have realised that the ban on mail order purchasing is the minor problem. Section 19 of the Bill not only redefines what a flick knife is, it also makes it illegal to possess one, rather than (as at present) to supply one to anyone else. As currently worded, it's likely to make it illegal for me to own either of the knives I currently take paddling, and there's no "reasonable excuse" defence.

    The members of the Public Bill Committee are listed here. If your MP is on the committee please consider writing to them to express your concern (MP's can only deal with their own constituents).
    This was also something I brought up in my submission - I wasn't clear on if they were trying to criminalize any one-handed opening knife or trying to tidy up on the existing law. My view is that the legislation should be worded such to include an intervening mechanism that provides propulsion. The current wording is very unclear as to how they are defining automatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    The definition of a flick knife reads like what I have always thought a flick knife to be. What on earth are you carrying?
    There's a huge amount of one-handed opening knives that aren't what would traditionally be considered a flick knife (i.e. opened using a spring mechanism). For instance one of my hunting knives has a small 'button' on the spine of the blade, there's no actual mechanism involved but it allows you to open the knife with the thumb of the hand that's holding it. These are really handy as you invariably find yourself in a situation where you're holding something with one hand when you need the knife. A lot of safety/rescue knives use a similar opening method for obvious reasons.

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