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Thread: Looking for updated opinions on TuffStuff, and alternatives

  1. #1

    Default Looking for updated opinions on TuffStuff, and alternatives

    Hi all, I am a new face but have been lurking about reading everything I can about Nova Craft's TuffStuff material - with sustained use, how are people getting on with it (everything seems a couple years old)? I am doing my 4* canoe at some point, mostly paddling grade II-III, on SW UK and Welsh rivers, and tripping with the wife. I guess what I am wanting to know is just how effective the material specifically is. I get the gel coat thing, and how it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it doesn't bother me personally. Is the material worth the money? The biggest appeal for me re: TuffStuff is the weight - my back is a serious consideration.

    If you haven't tried that material, I would still be interested in hearing about any lightweight alternatives that may be floating about.

    Thanks,

    Tom

    P.S. I am looking for a Prospector 16' - tried a Nova Craft SP3 model the other day, and really liked it on the water; however, it was quite heavy.

  2. #2
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    The Nova Craft Prospector 16 in TuffStuff is very light. I can car-top and carry on my own and I'm not a muscleman, just a bit of a weedy 57 yr old office worker. I haven't had mine for a year yet so couldn't really comment on longevity. Mine's had fairly gentle use so far but the gel coat does get scratched up quite easily. Should have put keel guard thingies on in the first place Otherwise very happy with the NC P16 in TuffStuff.

  3. #3

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    cheeres meirion. good point on Bang plates.

  4. #4
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    Though I don't own a Tuffstuff canoe, I've paddled alongside them in real expedition conditions, as well as paddled them for short trips.

    Its a very good material, and pretty tough. Stiff and light so the canoe paddles well, but will shrug off modest bumps and scrapes.

    MarkL took his P15 to Sweden/Norway with us this year. There were some pretty scrapey rivers, laden boats, stupid boulder portages etc etc. Proper exped stuff. The only damage was a couple of chips in the gel coat which needed repair on return home. We paddled g2 max though.

    I would say it would be fine up to 2+, with the odd 3 for competent paddlers. If you're a regular ww paddler on the UKs rocky 2+/3 rivers, maybe you'd want to look at T-Formex boats.

  5. #5
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    I have a NC cronje in tuffstuff, bought in the summer. It's stiff, no oil-canning, just as you would expect from a composite boat. The gel coat does scuff up with normal use, but that's what gel coat does. I haven't had any major bangs, aside from the boat blowing off the car roof while lifting it on one day - it landed on tarmac with nothing more than superficial scratches.
    Weight-wise, its a lot lighter than a plastic boat, but if you wanted to go lighter (and more expensive!) there are significantly lighter lay-ups around. My 17' cronje is lighter and easier to carry than my mega outlander 16 (unknown composite) and my apache 15 (fibreglass).
    The one minor downside is it seems quite noisy compared to the other two boats - that may be down to the build-in buoyancy adding resonance when the hull gets knocked, or just the longer hull, and I don't find it intrusive, just noticeably different.

  6. #6
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    I'll try to be the voice of reason here, but much depends on how you care for your boat and how much you care about your boat, and whether you want to be spending time patching up damaged gel coat.
    I have a 15' Tuffstuff Prospector. I love the way it looks, and paddles, how much it weighs, and I love its stability. However, I took it on the Torridge in North Devon a few weeks ago. On the day, I doubt anywhere was much more than grade 1, but this was a section I hadn't paddled before, and in places the river level was lower than I'd expected, so I scraped some small rocks a few times. A royalex boat would have shrugged off these scrapes, but the Tuffstuff sustained what I would term significant damage. This was on one day out over a 10/12 mile trip, so used regularly in similar circumstances, the boat would be needing a lot of repairs - not good for a 2000 boat.
    Mine is the normal Tuffstuff, Markl's boat mention by Mal above is the expedition version, so will take a bit more punishment than mine.

    You've maybe seen the videos from NC where they drop a boat from a 100ft high building, have two guys standing on an upturned hull and hit the hull with hammers. That's clever marketing but not real life, and if you watch carefully, the camera does not spend any time in close up on the hull. There's a couple more, one where they pin and bend a boat on purpose, and throw it down stairs and small cliffs. They make big of the fact that the boats are still useable afterwards and would still get you home. That may be so, and is relevant in the wide open spaces of Canada, but not quite so important over here, and would you want a boat that looked like they do after some abuse.
    The boat thrown off the roof, by dint of its size, has much wind resistance under it, so it virtually floats down and doesn't hit the ground with massive force. The ones they stand on and hit with hammers, you'll note that there's quite a bit of flex in the hull, so the weight is being absorbed. In the real world with the boat the correct way up on a river with a 17 stone body holding it down, the hull has nowhere to go when it hits a rock, so it sustains damage.

    If you go the Tuffstuff route, get a light coloured one as they show scratches far less.
    I get the lightweight angle, I have a back problem and I like light boats, but sometimes there has to be a compromise, and so I have to wholeheartedly agree with Mal - if you're paddling boney and rocky rivers, get a T-Formex boat and suck up the extra weight.
    Last edited by OLD MAN; 29th-December-2017 at 01:08 PM.
    Nin Wanakiwidee Tchiman

  7. #7

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    Great response guys, thanks! This is the real world info I am looking for

    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    I'll try to be the voice of reason here, but much depends on how you care for your boat and how much you care about your boat, and whether you want to be spending time patching up damaged gel coat.
    I have a 15' Tuffstuff Prospector. I love the way it looks, and paddles, how much it weighs, and I love its stability. However, I took it on the Torridge in North Devon a few weeks ago. On the day, I doubt anywhere was much more than grade 1, but this was a section I hadn't paddled before, and in places the river level was lower than I'd expected, so I scraped some small rocks a few times. A royalex boat would have shrugged off these scrapes, but the Tuffstuff sustained what I would term significant damage. This was on one day out over a 10/12 mile trip, so used regularly in similar circumstances, the boat would be needing a lot of repairs - not good for a 2000 boat.
    Mine is the normal Tuffstuff, Markl's boat mention by Mal above is the expedition version, so will take a bit more punishment than mine.

    You've maybe seen the videos from NC where they drop a boat from a 100ft high building, have two guys standing on an upturned hull and hit the hull with hammers. That's clever marketing but not real life, and if you watch carefully, the camera does not spend any time in close up on the hull. There's a couple more, one where they pin and bend a boat on purpose, and throw it down stairs and small cliffs. They make big of the fact that the boats are still useable afterwards and would still get you home. That may be so, and is relevant in the wide open spaces of Canada, but not quite so important over here, and would you want a boat that looked like they do after some abuse.
    The boat thrown off the roof, by dint of its size, has much wind resistance under it, so it virtually floats down and doesn't hit the ground with massive force. The ones they stand on and hit with hammers, you'll note that there's quite a bit of flex in the hull, so the weight is being absorbed. In the real world with the boat the correct way up on a river with a 17 stone body holding it down, the hull has nowhere to go when it hits a rock, so it sustains damage.

    If you go the Tuffstuff route, get a light coloured one as they show scratches far less.
    I get the lightweight angle, I have a back problem and I like light boats, but sometimes there has to be a compromise, and so I have to wholeheartedly agree with Mal - if you're paddling boney and rocky rivers, get a T-Formex boat and suck up the extra weight.
    I'm really glad to read your balanced response - those were exactly my reservations. However, it's a shame that wasn't what I wanted to see...

    T-Formex is an interesting proposition, and I haven't looked into it as extensively as the TuffStuff, so how would you compare it to SP3? It doesn't seem that much lighter than SP3 (could be wrong on that though) but if the weight difference is negligible, then I might be inclined to go the cheaper route...and invest in a trolley. I don't know anything about the maintenance of those materials, either.

  8. #8
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    However, it's a shame that wasn't what I wanted to see..
    Sorry .

    T-Formex is an interesting proposition, and I haven't looked into it as extensively as the TuffStuff, so how would you compare it to SP3? It doesn't seem that much lighter than SP3 (could be wrong on that though) but if the weight difference is negligible, then I might be inclined to go the cheaper route...and invest in a trolley. I don't know anything about the maintenance of those materials, either.
    I have no personal experience of T Formex, but it's currently being reported in the media as being the equal, and maybe slightly better than Royalex. I did get a comment from one member here who'd seen some of the first Esquif T-Formex boats to arrive in the UK, he stated that the smooth interior finish that Royalex gave was not so good on the T- Formex. Maybe just teething problems and not a big issue.
    It must be pretty reasonable, as Wenonah are buying it from Esquif to make some of their own boats.
    With regard to weights, if you believe manufacturers figures, an Esquif 16' Prospector and a Wenonah 16' Prospector should both weigh a tad under 30kgs in T-Formex. A NC SP3 16' is at least 9kgs heavier than those, but of course is half the price. Only you can make the final choice of what suits your personal circumstances and pocket. I'd liken buying a canoe to getting a made to measure suit i.e. our sizes (read circumstances here) are all different, and the suit I have made for me won't fit you. Same with canoes - it only takes a few kgs in weight and a few inches in height to make a canoe feel completely different to two different people.

    My advice would be, and bear in mind that I'm a pensioner now with a dicky back, buy the lightest boat you can afford that will fit the criteria of what you require it to do, Don't underestimate the extra 9kgs the SP3 weighs. For me, a 30kg boat, (whilst not desirable) is maneagable. The extra 9kgs of the SP3 would not be now, not even with a trolley. The easier a boat is to get from one point to another by carrying it, will mean it will get used more.

    Moving on to maintenance of T-Formex. In an ideal world, store indoors. If that's not possible, then try to keep it out of direct sunlight in storage as most plastic will deform if subjected to heat for long periods. Apply some Aerospace 303 or Armorall (from Halfords) a couple of times a year. This will keep them looking nice and they both contain a UV inhibitor.

    Alternatives to your well conceived plans ?
    You could wait for a used Royalex boat to come up for sale, either here in the classifieds, or E Bay etc.
    There's also Silverbirch canoes, that in price and weight would seem to fall midway between the SP3 and the T-Formex boats. I have no personal experience, but they appear to get good reports about how they paddle, but there was a question raised here recently about deformation occurring.

    I hope this is helpful rather than confusing and good luck with your choice.
    Nin Wanakiwidee Tchiman

  9. #9
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    I have a T-Formax 17' Esquif Prospecteur. I love the boat but I can't say how well it will hold up in rocky conditions other than I'm convinced it will act in the same way that Royalex does. I know that two outfitters I trust have the T-Formex boats on order for this coming season (2018) so we will know more by the end of this year. I wouldn't call this boat "light" but it is a wilderness exped canoe so I need to compromise light weight for durability. If you look on the media section for "a heart that beats" you can see me and my daughter running a set of rapids in it but these were only grade II with no rock dodging.

  10. #10
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    I was recently looking for a lighter boat as I'm on the mend from a shoulder injury and my SP3 prospector weight is approaching 50 kg.

    I was a bit disillusioned by the modern offerings in lightweight construction in terms of their durability. Didn't want something with gel coat in the end as I spent too long repairing sailing boats with gel coat.

    I've ordered a ballistic nylon covered skin on frame boat from Valkyrie craft. The skin is covered in a flexible epoxy resin. As far as I understand you can repair slight scratches by just painting on more risen and if absolutely necessary this skin can always be replaced. I have no connection with the company but just thought it might be of interest to you if I shared my recent choice.

    http://valkyriecraft.com/overview-of...ght-open-canoe

    My new boat won't be built until the spring so can't comment on it's actual performance until then.

    Ewan


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  11. #11
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    We have a Tuff Stuff Exp Prospector, lovely boat, at the time of purchase, did hope it would be the roylex replacement, its not, more of a "high tech" grp, repairable, but after having seen a damaged one, we no longer use ours on bony rivers, for that a coreliteX fits the bill, at a fraction of the cost.....

  12. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    Sorry .
    No worries - thank you, really; I had a feeling a reality check was needed, and you gave it to me

    No alternatives, as you maybe guessed - coming from the kayak world, I am having to adjust my thinking/approach towards materials and paddling style, so just trying to educate myself at this point. I have taught open canoe, but never considered it as a hobby until a colleague suggested it and the wife declared that she would be keen for it, haha.

    I will have another look at Silverbirch - I was TuffStuff-blind at the time, so maybe wasn't as impartial as I could have been . I might be struggling to shake off the appeal of it, though, haha. Thank you for the advice!

    Thank you to everyone else, too - Gordon, Mal, meirion, bobt, E_McNeill, PeterB - I appreciate the input. I will have a look at your links (Ewan, that boat is beautiful - though maybe not for us - look forward to hearing about it) and will be back with more questions/updates.

  13. #13
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    No point discussing the material until you decide what you are going to use the boat for.
    For lake/loch paddling I wouldn't bother with royalex/t-formex/PE or even toughstuff, just buy composite in a spec that gives a weight you like, or wooden.

    If you can paddle well and will be mainly touring flat rivers or easy white water that is generally deep, again I would suggest composite is still a better choice than most people would have you beleive.

    If you are of the PE kayak mindset already and intend to drag the boat over rocks or concrete, paddle rocky rivers, crash it fairly frequently or perhaps intend to use it for messing about with kids who will be jumping in and out banging it with paddles etc. then yes go for a PE boat, no argument at all!

    I have Royalex and PE OC1s for WW use, I also have a fibreglass (standard chopped strand) Apache 16' that I use for lochs and touring - I did the Spey in it last year well loaded with occasional scraping over shingly bits and a couple of occasions where I messed up and hit rocks fairly hard. The gel coat is scuffed, there are a couple of chips from rocks and the kevlar strip I fitted to the bow has a chuck out of it, but the gel coat chips are really hard to spot amongst the scuffing. The scuffing doesn't significantly affect the handling for what I use it for, but if/when I want to make it nice a couple of hours with the polisher will take most of it away and make the boat shiny again, a few bits would need sanding and the chips may want a little filling to get the whole hull looking completely like new, but it is unrealistic to keep any boat looking that way continually, especially a Royalex/PE/T-formex boat!

    A great many British canoeists choose a Royalex prospector (now forced to choose PE or T-formex or other) with the intention of treating it like the landrover of the canoe world, but like many landrover owners they rarely if ever make use of its ruggedness and could probably have managed with a sports car (composite or wooden canoe) and hired/borrowed a 4x4 (PE canoe) for the odd occasions they actually go off road (rocky river).

    How hard can it be?

  14. #14
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    People have already mentioned the occasional bit of Gel Coat repair if you are using it on boney rivers and care about a couple of dinks. Mine has lasted a couple of years before I bothered. I only did that because I figured the boat deserved it. I should say I do have skid plates on bow and stern so they are bomb proof.

    Overall, the main thing for me is weight vs cost vs how it feels to paddle.

    I have exactly the same boat in Tuffstuff, Rx and a whole fleet of Poly ones and I can honestly say that there is no comparison when paddling them. The TS boat is by far my favourite on the water. The weight means it is also my favourite off the water too. That brings us to cost .... to get the weight, it is likely to have to be composite and for me the Tuff Stuff boats sit right in the middle between the ultra light Swifts and the more standard Rx/T-Formex giving the best compromise

    I can honestly say that I wouldn't want to have taken the other options on the Scandinavian routes we did and I personally wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. In the end, it is all 'horses for courses' stuff and is highly dependent on what you want to do with them and where you normally paddle. I do use my other boats when it is obviously going to end up being a wet scrape down a river and that's why I have the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Man
    but the Tuffstuff sustained what I would term significant damage
    Really

    What did you do to it ?
    Last edited by MarkL; 12th-January-2018 at 02:22 PM.
    MarkL
    www.canoemassifcentral.com
    Canoe outfitting packages in the Massif Central


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    Really


    What did you do to it ?
    PM coming
    Nin Wanakiwidee Tchiman

  16. #16

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    I have a Nova Craft 15 Prospector SP3, my friend recently bought a Bob Special Tuff Stuff, the weight difference is night and day, SP3 is a great canoe but a Tuff Stuff is definitely my next purchase


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    I bought a Bob in September, 25kg. More than advertised, but still manageable.
    Great in the water, would recommend.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moomoo View Post
    I bought a Bob in September, 25kg. More than advertised, but still manageable.
    Great in the water, would recommend.
    A lot lighter than my SP3, I can manage to tip mine then walk under and lift, the Bob I can lift without any problem


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    I have a Pal in Tuffstuff. I can roll this up onto my shoulders with no trouble and I'm a lightweight 66 year old.
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!

  20. #20

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    Hi Everyone, I've been paddling a Nova Craft TuffStuff Prospector 16 for a couple of years now. Great boat. I love it. It's been down a lot of class II and a few class III rapids and stands up well. I happen to live in the city (London, Ontario, Canada) where those boats are manufactured, and I actually helped out the folks at Nova Craft by producing a short video for them to help demonstrate how tough the TuffStuff canoes are. If you are interested, please check out the YouTube link below:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=871T__eCUw8

    Cheers
    -Wayne

  21. #21
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    Have SP3, TuffStuff and T-formex boats and love them all. I'm across the pond and spend most of my time paddling the bony(which is still being kind) rivers and creeks of the southern states. My t-formex boat is my "go to" option most of the time as it handles these types of conditions extremely well(weight isn't that much of an issue for me), where as my SP3 gets taken out for class 3+ bolder garden runs and the TS gets grabbed for the wide river/open water stuff. Have tried all three boats in various types of paddling conditions and all three handled them well, just some did slightly better than others. All that being said, I like what JimW's thread stated about "what you're using the boat for". If owning that many boats just isn't an option, pick the boat that will have you sorted for most of your paddling and join a paddling group so that you can maybe borrow a different boat off one of your mates(did I use that term correctly?) if a different type of trip arises.
    Happy Paddling!

  22. #22
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    I have an interest in this as I'm still undecided between a TuffStuff PAL and a T-Formex Wenonah.

    I had a NC Prospector in TuffStuff that was aggressively scraped along the bottom of the Wye with 27 stones of paddlers on board - sounded really bad, but it was left with barely a mark. I've mended loads of yachts and windsurfers and the gelcoat surface (if that's what it is) of TuffStuff is better than anything I've ever come across.

    OP says he's doing a lot of grade 2-3, and the consensus seems to be that T-Formex is a no-brainer, but I've also read posts on other forums from people who remember the days before Royalex and think nothing of going rock-bashing in a composite canoe, and repairing them when needed.

    Does anyone have a view on repairing TuffStuff vs. Royalex / T-Formex? Strikes me that you can never take the dings and ugly pock marks out of Royalex / T-F, but a competent DIY-er can restore composites to near perfection.
    .
    .
    Last edited by Duck Feet; 31st-March-2018 at 09:11 PM.
    I'm at that difficult age... somewhere between birth and death.

  23. #23
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    I had a NC Prospector in TuffStuff
    You neglected to mention that your boat was the Expedition variant. Not all Tuffstuff boats are created equal .

    Does anyone have a view on repairing TuffStuff vs. Royalex / T-Formex? Strikes me that you can never take the dings and ugly pock marks out of Royalex / T-F, but a competent DIY-er can restore composites to near perfection.
    The answer to this probably depends on your personality and how you like to spend your time. Personally I would find it a chore to have to spend time repairing a composite boat on a regular basis.
    With plastic boats I know they are generally able to sustain more damage without requiring repair. Okay, they'll get dented, scuffed and scraped, but I expect that and I know that unless badly damaged, they'll last a long time with little or no maintenance.
    So, as mentioned above, if I expect a boat to get scraped badly I'll use a plastic one, but on easier going flatwater I'll use a lighter composite. And yes I'm lucky to have a choice, I know many people don't.
    Nin Wanakiwidee Tchiman

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    I would say that composites are better at resisting scratches, while plastics are better at impacts. So if you're scraping along the Wye, Tuffstuff is ideal. If you're picking a line down the lower Tryweryn, you're likely to bounce off a few rocks and will be better with Royalex/T-Formex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    You neglected to mention that your boat was the Expedition variant. Not all Tuffstuff boats are created equal .

    The answer to this probably depends on your personality and how you like to spend your time. Personally I would find it a chore to have to spend time repairing a composite boat on a regular basis.
    I thought the only difference between TuffStuff and the Expedition version was not the thickness of the material, but the addition of reinforcing ribs. NC's own words 'a heavier duty version of our standard TuffStuff construction', could mean thicker TuffStuff and/or structural reinforcement. Might be wrong, but other than the ribs I couldn't make out any difference.

    I'm quite happy fettling and mending things - boats, bikes, windsurfing gear... all part and parcel of owning something nice and keeping it that way, while not being afraid to break it. But I am a bit (Mrs Duck feet: ha, 'a bit'!!!) OCD.
    I'm at that difficult age... somewhere between birth and death.

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    NC's own words 'a heavier duty version of our standard TuffStuff construction', could mean thicker TuffStuff and/or structural reinforcement.
    I might be wrong, but I imagine the ribs are only foam which weighs next to nothing, so the extra 3lbs in weight is probably due to extra cloth being used.
    Nin Wanakiwidee Tchiman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Feet View Post
    Strikes me that you can never take the dings and ugly pock marks out of Royalex / T-F, but a competent DIY-er can restore composites to near perfection.
    .
    .
    But there is something about a battle scarred canoe that is attractive - to me at least.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD MAN View Post
    I might be wrong, but I imagine the ribs are only foam which weighs next to nothing, so the extra 3lbs in weight is probably due to extra cloth being used.
    You're probably right OM. Anyway, I'll soon be able to contribute properly - just ordered my new PAL, in go-fast green (and to hell with all the scratches).
    I'm at that difficult age... somewhere between birth and death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Feet View Post
    You're probably right OM. Anyway, I'll soon be able to contribute properly - just ordered my new PAL, in go-fast green (and to hell with all the scratches).
    Well done. Excellent choice!
    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Feet View Post
    You're probably right OM. Anyway, I'll soon be able to contribute properly - just ordered my new PAL, in go-fast green (and to hell with all the scratches).
    I don't think you'll regret it (apart from the green bit of course)!

  31. #31
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    Anyway, I'll soon be able to contribute properly - just ordered my new PAL, in go-fast green (and to hell with all the scratches)
    Excellent, you'll love it - I hope .
    Nin Wanakiwidee Tchiman

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