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Thread: Help please !

  1. #1

    Default Help please !

    Hi folks I'm new to the forum and I'm not a kayaker so sorry if these questions have been asked before or seem a bit silly

    So I've just bought a sailing yacht which I am keeping on a mooring(quite an exposed mooring) at Crinan. Most folk with yachts use inflatable dinghies/outboards as tenders to go to and from the mooring but I like the idea of using a kayak as they are nice and light and could be stowed aboard easily.The plan would also be to use the kayak to explore the coastline when we're away sailing as well as using it as just a tender. An inflatable kayak sounds great and I've seen a sevylor pointer 2 person k2 for sale on Gumtree for£ 250. I've read that these type of kayak's would not be suitable because they are unstable. I've also read that they are very stable! I'd need to be able to paddle out to the mooring with say 10 litres of water, 10 litres of fuel and clothes, food etc. So there would be a bit of weight in it.

    I also do a lot of hillwalking and I've been thinking about getting a kayak for a while to use getting down freshwater lochs to access hills, camp etc. So this could kill 2 birds with one stone. Any thoughts on this ?

    Many thanks in advance !

  2. #2
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    HI Zagreb, welcome to the forums!

    I suspect the reason that most people tend to use ribs or motorised rowing boats as tenders, is to provide a larger load capacity, but providing the kayak you are considering is big enough for what you need, then I'm sure it would work admirably.

    Primary stability of inflatable kayaks is normally very good due to the flatter bottom and greater width - the only point you may find tricky is getting on and off your yacht...

    As far as hill walking and using it as a carry in option, just watch the weight and pack size...

  3. #3

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    Thanks Adrian !
    What I might do is just get the kayak and see how I get on with it as a tender. If it work's then great, if it doesn't i can buy a dinghy as well.

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    The problem with most small kayaks is they have a very small cockpit to get in and out. No problem doing this on land but I'd not want to try it getting in/out alongside your yacht.

    However, there are 'sit-on-tops', which shouldn't be the same problem and most inflatables I've seen look easy to get in and out of too.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

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    Hi

    I sail as well and have pondered on the practicality of using a kayak or canoe as a tender for my 25 footer. I'd be reasonably happy getting on-board from either but I think getting into either from the yacht might be more problematic.

    I've only paddled an inflatable once and was surprised how stable it was. Additional benefits would be storage on board and the possibility of carrying when walking.

    Andy
    The river flows, flows to the sea
    Wherever that river flows, that's where I want to be

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    I think this will work in most conditions,
    I looked at the pointer and see it has removable decks so can be paddled open so easy to climb in and out of,
    My concerns are mainly that being a tandem kayak trim could be difficult and you end up pointing down wind all the time, and secondly the floor will be soft even when pumped up so can make standing err... interesting, but not much different than a small inflatable tender.
    just make sure you have a bow line that you can reach from your seat, and bring on board the big boat with you

    And if your ever in the oystercatcher we could bump into you
    JD
    He knows not where he's going, For the ocean will decide, It's not the destination, It's the glory of the ride

  7. #7
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    Whilst sea kayaking I have several times been hailed by yachtsmen (including women), jealous of how much closer inshore we can explore than they dare take a yacht, so I can totally understand your thinking.

    Sevylor are a well respected make of inflatable kayak, but I have no personal experience. If you are reasonably agile I think it would work pretty well, especially if you have a sugar scoop stern on the yacht (OK I know only big yachts have them).
    Stability is a relative thing, to a kayaker inflatables seem highly stable, to someone used to inflatable dinghies they seem incredibly unstable, to someone used to neither - approach with an open mind and you will get used to it!

    I assume as a yachtsman you will know about the tides beyond Loch Crinan and will be planning to stay well clear of the tide races in your slow inflatable kayak - also be very aware of the wind strength, inflatables tend to catch the wind a lot more than rigid kayaks (because they are bigger and float higher) you will almost certainly struggle to make progress in F4, maybe in F3. The tide races can be fun in fast rigid kayaks if you have a very good idea what you are doing and a lot of confidence in your kayak skills, but no place for novices.

    I believe a well known Scottish river racer takes his racing kayak cruising and uses it from the boat - it is a hell of a lot less stable than an inflatable, but he does have a lifetime experience paddling racing kayaks, and climbing in and out of them on swift flowing rivers.

    As long as you stay safe on your first outings, if you don't get on with it, I think those Sevylors re-sale quite well.

    How hard can it be?

  8. #8

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    Thanks very much to all for the useful comments!
    I think I'll give it a go! Plus I saw cameron mcneish on TV the other night paddling down the spey and it looked really good so I could maybe use it for that sort of trip too.

    Jim, I'm no yachtsman. I've never sailed before in my life and I'm clueless. I've just always fancied a yacht as I love the west coast and I love the sea so I just thought why not and took the plunge.

    So as well as learning all about the tides/wind etc I also need to learn how to sail. I'm going to be busy!
    Thanks

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    Crikey, you couldn't have chosen a much more serious place to base your first yacht as a complete novice.

    I strongly reccommend you ask an experienced sailor who knows the area to teach you about the local tides and tide races before you head out towards Dorus Mor and Corryvreckan, at peak of spring flood the tide heads westward at about 8 knots towards a huge whirlpool and overfalls that stretch for 3 miles out to sea - not all yachts are fast enough to fight against that much flow.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/glasgowa...00/8495954.stm

    Or search youtube to find examples like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jevwjLDhJrY

    How hard can it be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimW View Post
    Crikey, you couldn't have chosen a much more serious place to base your first yacht as a complete novice.
    Yeah, take it slowly mate, the west coast is one of the most unpredictable and complex in the world! I'm thinking that a nice stable inflatable canoe might be best to start off with, until you find your sea legs as it were. However, be aware that such things can blow away quite easily. A little electric trolling motor might also help you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreb View Post

    Jim, I'm no yachtsman. I've never sailed before in my life and I'm clueless. I've just always fancied a yacht as I love the west coast and I love the sea so I just thought why not and took the plunge.

    So as well as learning all about the tides/wind etc I also need to learn how to sail. I'm going to be busy!
    Thanks
    You been listening to Deacon Blue's "Dignity" then

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    I graduated to bigger boats rather than dinghies about 3 years ago. I can't recommend doing the Day Skipper theory and practical enough.

    I normally sail out of Hull, where the tide can run 4/5 knots on a Spring. With the potential tidal streams in your area, I would be really wary about just casting off and going without some training and a bit of experience.

    If you need any info about where I did my theory (online and at my own pace) or practical (somewhere nice and sunny), just shout.

    Andy
    The river flows, flows to the sea
    Wherever that river flows, that's where I want to be

  13. #13

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    Jim/bob/andibs

    Yeah I know it's possibly not the best place for a beginner! The thing is I love it up there and a private mooring came up for sale and I didn't want to pass up the opportunity of buying it because I don't think they come up for sale that often. I've spent a lot of time up that way with my 4m inflatable dinghy and outboard so I'm aware of the tides but I know it's a completely different ball game with a yacht.

    Jim, I was thinking about befriending a local sailor if I can find someone kind enough to pass on some local knowledge. And yes will have to get some tuition before venturing anywhere because at the moment I don't even know the difference between a mail sail and a genoa! Can't wait to start learning though!
    Thanks

    P. S decided just to go for an inflatable dinghy as a tender. Seems the best all rounder. Maybe a kayak too though.

  14. #14

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    P.p.s Andy I'd be interested to know where you did your theory/practical. I've bought I couple of books meantime and working through them. Cheers

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    You go for it mate. Sometimes a baptism of fire is just the ticket. BUT, that doesn't mean be stupid or foolish especially with your safety and that of others.

    I hope your learn carefully and I hope you learn well because that will be the best way to enjoy your new found hobby.

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  17. #17
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    I'm a paddler, and a Yachtmaster. I've come to this discussion late, and can't find the statistics, but I know that, allegedly, getting into and out of a tender is one of the most dangerous activities in yachting. I've used both "hard" and inflatable tenders, and a major problem is the height difference.

    Also there are lots of examples of people setting off to sail in total ignorance, some of whom have perished, many of whom have been rescued and one or two have learnt the hard way. However, I don't always think that taking a course is the best way forward. If your local club races, its almost certain that there will be more crew positions available than people to fill them, and the "jobs" are simple and easily learnt. That will not equip you to be in the next Volvo race, but it will give you an understanding of how it works and what to do.

    As to your choice of waters on which to start well......

    You might take heed of the legendary telegram in Swallows and Amazons "better drowned than duffers, if not duffers won't drown" and ponder whether you might be considered a duffer right now.

    I'd be happy to discuss sailing / boating matters off grid so to speak A pm could get us started.

    Impcanoe

  18. #18

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    Cheers for the well wishes and advice folks

    Yes think it will just be a case of taking it very slowly and enjoying it !

    Adrian cheers for the videos! I'll be staying well clear of that! Although whenever I've been through on the dinghy it's been flat calm. I'd love to do a boat trip there when it's in full flow !

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    Don't forget that although you are based at Crinan, if you are going boating for more than a day you can always* transit the Crinan Canal to Ardrishaig and cruise on Loch Fyne which is much less exposed and has more manageable tides.
    The skippers guide suggests 5-6 hours minimum transit time, but that assumes you have crew to work the locks, it would take longer on your own.
    *unless your boat is too big

    How hard can it be?

  20. #20

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    Cheers Jim, yeah that's an option but if it's a day through and a day back I'd guess we would have to be going for a few days to make it worth our while? Going to keep the boat at sandpoint marina in dumBarton in the winter so may well come through that way!

  21. #21
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    I can recommend reading “Sailing Solo Alone” it’s about some one who bought a boat and learnt by doing it, Not an instructional book but a fun read
    JD
    He knows not where he's going, For the ocean will decide, It's not the destination, It's the glory of the ride

  22. #22
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    Hi

    As a sailer and canoeist I'd like to add a couple of observations.

    As previously mentioned the most difficult part will be getting out of the inflatable canoe/ kayak into the yacht.

    The gear you normally wear when sailing a yacht is not very easy to swim in. And it's more convenient went on the yacht to have an inflatable life jackets rather than a buoyancy aid.

    Rather than paddling Out to get on board in your cruising gear and wellies you might want to consider a cheap drysuit and buoyancy aid so that if or when you do fall in it's easier to get back on your boat safely.

    Also inflatable kayaks blow away from you very quickly. It might be sensible to tie a painter from it to your boat before trying to transition from one vessel to the other.

    If I was in the same situation my preference would be to keep an inflatable canoe or kayak on board to use as a tender when cruising and have a hard shell tender on Shore to use to get to my boat which I can then leave tied to the mooring.

    Ewan



    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

  23. #23
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    Oh and if sailing on your own carry a personal locator Beacon on you even when going from the boat to shore and back again.

    I fortunately never had to use mine but they are exceptionally good value compared to what used to be available.

    The cost of a Littleover 100 quidd are the size of a mobile phone waterproof and the battery lasts for years.

    If you find yourself in the water and unable to get back to you about you hit a button and it alerts the coastguard to your exact location.

    I have fortunately never had to use mine. But if you do find yourself in the situation where you think you might have to rely on it activate it before your fingers get too cold to remove the cover and push the Big Red Button.

    Ewan



    This is the one i use

    https://www.mcmurdogroup.com/mcmurdo...-fastfind-220/

    P.s

    The book essentials of sea survival would also make a good Reading

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Essentials-.../dp/0736002154

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreb View Post
    Cheers Jim, yeah that's an option but if it's a day through and a day back I'd guess we would have to be going for a few days to make it worth our while? Going to keep the boat at sandpoint marina in dumBarton in the winter so may well come through that way!
    I've only paddled out of the Leven, never sailed in or out, but in anything bigger than canoe you need to make sure you follow the buoyed channel - don't cut the corner when you see sandpoint, it gets really shallow! You will no doubt be using pilot which will describe the approach in detail. Hopefully the boat came with a set of charts and pilots for the west coast?

    How hard can it be?

  25. #25

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    Mcneil that's a good shout - a dinghy for the mooring and then a canoe when on the go. I've actually got a plb for hillwalking etc so I'll be using that for sailing

    Jim no don't have charts. But I've been told I need the ccc pilot books and Imray charts, does that sound right?

    Thanks guys

  26. #26

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    Hi Zagreb

    Thinking about your hillwalking idea, bear in mind that the Pointer K2 weighs 21kg and isn't particularly small when folded. Speaking personally, that sort of weight would rob a hillwalk of any enjoyment pretty quickly. Packrafts are designed specifically for this sort of thing and weigh in at around 6kg for a two person boat. I don't know much about them but a bit of googling should bring up a fair bit of info. They seem to be pretty pricey, mind you, and also pretty snug for two people.

    Off the top of my head, the only two-person inflatable kayak that I'd be prepared to carry any sort of distance is last year's Gumotex Twist 2 made from light nitrilon (a thinner version of their normal fabric). It weighs in at 11kg and packs down pretty small. They've stopped making it in light nitrilon now, so last year's stock is discounted while still available and you should be able to pick one up for around £300.

    US retailer The Boat People describe it as follows:

    "..no tandem inflatable kayak packs smaller than the Twist II double, so this works perfect for air travel, backpacking, or even in a bicycle trailer or for motorcyclists. And just how small is the packed size of the Twist II Kayak? A mere 1-1/4 cubic feet (9" X 13" X 18"). As we said, nothing else comes close. Despite the somewhat short 11'9" hull the tandem Twist if very well laid out. It holds two tall adults without a problem. The rear seat is so far back compared to the other, longer [Gumotexes] that there is leg room even for a person up to 6'6". This boat can hold 400 pounds, but it is better with 350"

  27. #27

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    Cheers inflator when I say I'd use it for hillwalking i won't have to actually carry, it will just be case of launching paddling down a loch with acamping gear etc , setting up camp and then hillwalking form the tent. So weight not actually that crucial

    Thanks

  28. #28

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    Gotcha. I'm sure the K2 would be fine then

  29. #29
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    I think I mostly have Imray pilots, but Clyde Cruising Club ones are at least as good, possibly better and cover very similar areas.
    For charts I tend to use Admiralty ones, they do a small craft folio for the west coast but even so it is a little light on larger scale charts and I understand a lot of Yachtsmen prefer the Imray charts - probably more useful scales for west coast.
    For sea kayaking I don't actually use the charts that much beyond obtaining tidal info - in a boat with a few inches draft it is usually possible to stop when you see it getting shallow so I tend to stick to large scale OS maps so I cant hunt for propsective wild camping spots. And most of the tidal details end up coming from pilots, the coverage is usually different so use them together for a more complete picture.

    Have you started staying up late to practise listening to the shipping forecast? (the long one is the midnight/1 am broadcast on R4 MW, others are usually shortened). You need to get used to the way the information is delivered (always the same order) and taking notes about the sea areas relevant to you. The coastguard broadcasts the local forecast several times a day in the same format as the shipping forecast so learning to recognise the areas that are relevant to you and practising getting the necessary information out of it is a useful skill. Obviously when you have 4G you can just view the internet version in your own time, but internet is not 100% at sea and being able to understand the radio version is still important.

    How hard can it be?

  30. #30

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    Cheers Jim all very useful

    Yeah I actually have familiarised myself with the shipping forecast as I often picked it up on my vhf when out with my dinghy on the west coast. Like you say can often get it on the phone, I remember even having enough signal on Corpach bay on the west side of jura, it's amazing where you get signal sometimes (and also where you don't )

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