Bouyancy and PFD

[geomickb]

Hi,

I have just bought an Old Town Camper (hurrah!) and need some buoyancy.

It will be used in flat water.

Block at front and rear?

We also need PFD's . I want something that will last and do for anything, kayak, canoe and sea?

Mick

[stinkwheel]

I'd think if you want a PFD to do open canoes, kayak and sea kayak, you need a kayak one that sits reasonably high on your torso so it will sit above the cockpit/spray deck without lifting your arms up. At the same time be aware that one which sticks out a lot at the front could make it trickier to get yourself back in the boat after a capsize.

Try on loads, fine one that is comfortable to move around in and "sticks" to you. My first PFD was awful, it sayt way too high to be comfortable and rode up even further when I was in the water making it a hindrance to re-entering the boat after a swim.

My best suggestion would be to try one of someone elses (you a member of a club? Most of them will have a selection of gear for members use). It's useful to try swimming in a bad one as much as a good one, then you'll know what to look for/avoid.

Remember end-block bouyancy is really for the boat more than your safety. It makes it easier to recover from another boat and technically would allow you to paddle the boat swamped. However, in open water conditions poor enough to swamp a boat, you won't be able to unless you are really good.

I'm sure Greg will be along shortly to talk about side airbags which are helpful for self-rescue.

Option 3 is no airbags at all. Your boat is plactic, it wont actually physically sink, although it will float very low in the water indeed.

[geomickb]

Yes, I am considering side bouyancy..

Is there a specific Peak PFD that anyone can suggest? I may be able to get a discount.

Mick

[Duck Feet]

I've 'succumbed' to fitting air bags in my new prospector, for the simple reason that I bought it for tandem paddling in estuaries. The bags mean I can do some white water too. If it were for quiet water paddling on rivers, within easy reach of the bank, I really wouldn't bother... but that's just me. I bought Peak 32" bags, I think they were £40.00 a pair, and I've indulged in some Aiguille covers to protect them.

My PFD is a Palm Kaikoura, which I bought when I had a kk, so it'll work for you too. Quite expensive, but I waited until one came up on 'the auction site'. If I lost it, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new one.

I'm sure that for every reply to these questions there will be a different answer... especially on the desirability of air bags.

[jamiemagee]

Yes, I am considering side bouyancy..

Is there a specific Peak PFD that anyone can suggest? I may be able to get a discount.

Mick

Their river one gets a good name

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[geomickb]

Can I just get two side bags from here?:

http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/accessories/

Edit: it looks like they have end bags as well.

So, should I get these blocks:

http://www.endlessriver.co.uk/wedge-...mbo-p-866.html

Then something for the middle as well?

I will be paddling with a toddler so wonder if more buoyancy is a good idea? Then if we do have an incident, I can right the boat and get us all in and back to the side asap?

In reality I don't think we will ever paddle if conditions aren't perfect but I guess it is always best to be prepared.

Mick

[sk8r]

Old Town Campers have inherent bouyancy - there are thousands and thousands of 'em in use "over 'ere" and in all my decades on the water in the backcountry, I have NEVER seen one with bags or blocks or whatever. If you're gonna run serious WW, then sure.. but if you were, you would have got a different boat.... Just go have some fun

[Duck Feet]

Then something for the middle as well? Then if we do have an incident, I can right the boat and get us all in and back to the side asap?

Seems like you're worrying a bit too much Mick. Why not spend some money on a short canoeing course, then you'll feel a lot more confident about the actual risks and any measures you might take to avoid them?

[geomickb]

Already done that. Was first thing i did before taking toddler in boat. Just not sure what to do now i have my own boat. Rentals seem to mainly have wedges but i have been advised that side are better for flat water.

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[geomickb]

I have decided to go for end block and side bags.

I want to be certain that I can right the boat, in the middle of a lake and get us all back in and to the side as quickly as possible.

[jamiemagee]

Where are you in the world Mick? If you're that worried about having a capsize my main advice would be paddle in a pair. That way in the unlikely event of a capsize the toddler can be lifted straight into the other canoe whilst you right yours.
My concern about all those air bags is where you fit the BBQ and Ghillie kettle?

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[geomickb]

UK. Plenty of room in the boat for that and lots of rum

Most paddling will be on our own, that's why i want to be self sufficient.

[Davy 90]

in the middle of a lake

My opinions on this differ to some of my fellow paddlers, but having dunked my (then non swimming) kids more than once unexpectedly (on moving water not open water) I would avoid the middle of anything until you are confident in your canoeing skills as a tandem pair in a variety of situations. Our rule of thumb when paddling alone with the kids was to be within a swim line/wading distance of the shore when ever possible. Our second rule was avoid paddling alone when ever possible

We paddled our WNN Minnesota II without additional buoyancy beyond the tanks it came with. On open water, we lashed the packs in with the roof bar cam straps.

My view is with kids, until they are big enough to fend for themselves, leave the faffing out of the boat in deep water to the sailors.

[Adrian Cooper]

My wife doesn't need to fall in the water when out boating, it would be an oxymoron. I assure her that when I am in control, we are not going to get wet unless it rains. I make sure that is the case and consequently rarely use additional buoyancy.

[Davy 90]

Ah if only everything in life were subject to such certainty Adrian

I never plan to fall in, but have been known to pop out of the boat without notice to cool down of an afternoon. I have also managed to fall in a river when not in my canoe more than once.. I'd like to think I'm not a complete bumbling incompetent
(others will snigger at this ) but sh*t happens and rarely where and when you expect it..

[Mal Grey]

(others will snigger at this )

[laurence milton]

Hi,

I have just bought an Old Town Camper (hurrah!) and need some buoyancy.

It will be used in flat water.

Block at front and rear?

We also need PFD's . I want something that will last and do for anything, kayak, canoe and sea?

Mick

Decathlon do one that's well thought of and well priced...video on their site?

[Hijrea]

The husband has a Palm Kaikoura (like Duck Feet) which he loves and which we have used in the open boat and the sea kayaks. (Oops, just realised I have mentioned the words 'sea kayak' again). Agree with earlier comments that the rise is important if you want to use it in a kayak as well, otherwise the thing will be chafing at your chin.

If you go for an accidental swim with small children then that can be the end of the trip. You will laugh, but all four of us fell in the Derwent in November a few years ago. That's me, husband, 7yo, and 3yo. We were right next to the bank as we had been getting back in, but even so, it was a saga. We set the children to run between two trees to warm up, and then fed them lots of hot chocolate. We have found synthetic over layers to be fantastic. You can throw a small adult-sized Paramo Torres or similar over any young child and it will instantly help. Also a group shelter very useful.

It's personal preference, but we have found it best to have drybags containing the same thing for each member of the party (e.g. a dry bag containing an extra jumper for each person; another containing a hat and gloves for each person; etc).

[Mal Grey]

Definitely agree that a group shelter and snacks and hot chocolate can be of huge benefit after either a swim or getting wet from above. Kids get cold in canoes, especially if there not doing anything other than sit.

The best PFD is the one that fits. I know that doesn't sound particularly helpful, but its essential they don't ride up when you're dunked. Kids ones will normally have a crotch strap to prevent this.

[tim]

Another ditto with the group shelter, under mine were two kids, they were getting very cold, lethargic and miserable, a few minutes inside with hot soup and dad and they were warm as toast and ready to paddle on.

[pipster3]

....

[pipster3]

Davy90 sums it up great advice

[geomickb]

I went for side airbags in the end. They are made my Holt.
They seem OK and the boat can be righted without getting much water in.

They are great for flat family paddles but they make it hard to move around when paddling solo.

Mick

[Malcs]

Re- PFD.

I have a Kaikoura and do not like it for kayaking on the sea, it has excellent thermal qualities and loads of pocket space (incl. handwarmers) but they ride up the chest, flat water kayaking, its really great. Getting back into a SOT kayak I found it impaired me by catching on anything it could, as well as riding up (this could be sorted with crutch straps I think) so I now use a Yak Xipe for sea kayaking.

[Potty Paddler]

I went for side airbags in the end. They are made my Holt.
They seem OK and the boat can be righted without getting much water in.

They are great for flat family paddles but they make it hard to move around when paddling solo.

Mick

Mick, perhaps you need a different solution when paddling solo ... "side airbags in the end"s ... will they fit/tie in?

[geomickb]

That's actually not a bad idea.

The other option is another boat..................