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Thread: Paddling can interfere with other water-users. An angling perspective.

  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_B View Post

    Which does really sum up the problem.

    without wishing to offend that is a generalisation and incorrect this is a topic debated many times on angling fora

  2. #122

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    It's not my generalisation, I don't read angling fora. It's my response to the words posted by davidh, who does. It wouldn't surprise me if "access conflicts" were debated many times on those fora, but I took him to mean that the kind of even handed debate he has endeavored to promote in this thread wouldn't happen on there.

  3. #123

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    I think ts a generalisation you were willing to concur with and share.
    This forum is better than most , one of the best , but I wouldn't call debates on here perfectly even handed.


    I don't think canoes scaring fish is the linchpin of the whole access debate , but , from angling experience I can well see it happening - more often than not would be my guess , but its only a guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyGesserit View Post
    I don't think canoes scaring fish is the linchpin of the whole access debate , but , from angling experience I can well see it happening - more often than not would be my guess , but its only a guess.
    I'm inclined to agree that fish scaring is almost a moot point but given we are navigating these tributary themes do you think that fish scaring is more or less of a problem than paddling interruptions to bypass anglers?

    Like your username! Perhaps we can stick with that theme & come up with a modified version of the Fremen litany against fear, for anglers!

    "I will face the paddler and permit him to pass before me and beyond me and when he has gone, only I will remain..."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Starr View Post
    I'm inclined to agree that fish scaring is almost a moot point but given we are navigating these tributary themes do you think that fish scaring is more or less of a problem than paddling interruptions to bypass anglers?

    Like your username! Perhaps we can stick with that theme & come up with a modified version of the Fremen litany against fear, for anglers!

    "I will face the paddler and permit him to pass before me and beyond me and when he has gone, only I will remain..."

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    Kull wahad !

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    Have you seen the size of the maggots on Dune........I'd hate to see the quarry up close
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    This debate is straying from factual realms...

    ... it's actually the Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Per View Post
    This debate is straying from factual realms...

    ... it's actually the Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.
    Harkonnen dissemination
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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    There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.

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    Default Paddling can interfere with other water-users. An angling perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Per View Post
    ... it's actually the Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.
    I stand corrected!
    We must paddle over water as the Fremen walk the desert...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Starr View Post
    I stand corrected!
    We must paddle over water as the Fremen walk the desert...

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    Hmmm.

    Think I'll stick to using a canoe if you don't mind.

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    The canoes must flow
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  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyGesserit
    I think ts a generalisation you were willing to concur with and share.
    As I've said, it was a statement by davidh. I took it as correct and responded to it. I didn't concur with it, I have no evidence on which to do so. I have no objection at all to you disagreeing with him, but please don't tell me that I meant something I didn't write.Bad formatt
    Last edited by Chris_B; 14th-December-2016 at 10:44 PM. Reason: error in in quote formatting

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    I was out for a walk down the local canal on Sunday at dusk and spotted a large domestic white goose with a Pike lure hanging from it's mouth and line wrapped around it's neck. It was clearly suffering some discomfort and made little effort to escape me and my dogs but did eventually get onto the water. I called the RSPCA and they said they'd get an officer on the case but it was getting dark so I don't know if they managed to rescue it. This is a result of angling - and the amount of rubbish that they leave behind is unforgivable too. Personally, I'd be happy never to see another angler sport fishing ever again!

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_B View Post
    As I've said, it was a statement by davidh. I took it as correct and responded to it. I didn't concur with it, I have no evidence on which to do so. I have no objection at all to you disagreeing with him, but please don't tell me that I meant something I didn't write.Bad formatt
    Doesn't concur mean agree with?

  16. #136

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    Oh I see you assumed it was correct - I agree that is different.

    I got a lot of stick on angling sites for supporting canoeists but after a lot of discussion I am convinced that, in many circumstances, canoeists will interfere substantially with a days fishing, particularly where the style of fishing is stalking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyGesserit View Post
    canoeists will interfere substantially with a days fishing
    This phrase seems to suggest some deliberate intent to cause disruption. The disruption to the fishing is surely only incidental to the canoeist passing rather than an 'interference'. I appreciate it could be read different ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyGesserit View Post
    Oh I see you assumed it was correct - I agree that is different.

    I got a lot of stick on angling sites for supporting canoeists but after a lot of discussion I am convinced that, in many circumstances, canoeists will interfere substantially with a days fishing, particularly where the style of fishing is stalking.
    Yep. In general the manners on here are very good, anglers tend to be a bit more outspoken on their fora, and some are downright rude.

    I'm on the steering group for the Wye Salmon Association, courtesy of being on't committee of Builth Angling Club. It used to be five or six old blokes in a pub back room, but at our last meeting (we've been going six years now) we had over thirty attendees, and decamped to the big room upstairs. Most of us are "of a certain age….."

    When the topic of "those bloody canoes" came up I let them grumble on for a bit, then announced that "actually guys - I'm a canoeist too."
    Several jaws dropped, but no-one was rude to me at all. Very different to internet behaviour, and hopeful for our future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidh View Post
    On Dune - if someone had given that Baron an appropriate clip round the ear when he was younger the book could have been a whole lot thinner. Less sequels too.
    It was thinner than this thread!


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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyGesserit View Post
    Oh I see you assumed it was correct - I agree that is different.

    I got a lot of stick on angling sites for supporting canoeists but after a lot of discussion I am convinced that, in many circumstances, canoeists will interfere substantially with a days fishing, particularly where the style of fishing is stalking.
    But the same could be said about anglers, having to constantly stop and start, change lines (to generally rubbish ones) interferes substantially with my days paddling, especially when that play wave that I want to surf on is just above a pool a fisherman is using.

    2 sides to every argument, but personally all the hostility I see comes from the side of the anglers.

  21. #141

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    As far as I can see the main difference in the attitude of the 2 sides is that one believes it has access to a shared resource, whereas the other believes it has exclusive access to that resource. Although paddlers are the main target of anglers I have seen anglers verbally abuse and even threaten pedestrians who are using a right of way on a canal tow path (I once even had to escort an elderly & infirm lady past a group of anglers who were threatening her).
    Ken

  22. #142

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    As far as the OP goes I read this thread as do paddlers interfere with angling - perhaps as an attempt to promote understanding of why anglers consistently say this.
    Whether angling interferes with paddling , whether Caffyn is correct or any number of other interesting questions is outside the scope of the thread - to me.

    The angling fora , which some admit they don't read are full of stories of paddlers behaving badly , again though this isn't what this thread is about.

    I once made a perfect cast of floating bread to a group of very large carp ( wild 30 lbers which to me is huge ) and sat there for 20 minutes , literally shaking , thinking they might take the bait at any moment.
    However then some guy appears , with his dog , asking "caught anything mate ?" and they disappeared with a flurry of slapping tails.

    Now experience now tells me that the way to fish for carp with bread is to get them feeding first , but to me my morning had been ruined as they never reappeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyGesserit View Post
    As far as the OP goes I read this thread as do paddlers interfere with angling - perhaps as an attempt to promote understanding of why anglers consistently say this.
    Whether angling interferes with paddling , whether Caffyn is correct or any number of other interesting questions is outside the scope of the thread - to me.
    This is correct BG. I posted to collect info on how paddlers perceive their activity may affect anglers. In general I think the thread has shown that in the main paddlers want to be considerate if they can. The outliers are: on one side the "I don't understand the fuss, or care, and will paddle regardless", and on the other side (and in the minority) the "anglers eat their own young" brigade.

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    Perhaps it would be constructive if there were some published/formal/researched guidance on how to least annoy the fisherfolk?

    I honestly had no idea my bobbing past could affect the potential for a catch to such a large extent. I don't want to spoil someone else's day, but I'm not sure that alone would stop me spoiling my own day by not getting the boat wet. It seems perhaps this is the crux of the problem. If there was some accepted guidance on how best to pass then those adhering to it would surely annoy the fisherfolk less, more poeple would be likely to annoy the fisherfolk less, and if/when the fisherfolk are grumpy those canoeist who have been adhering to 'best practice' would have something to console themselves or assert themselves with.

    It would appear the militant fisherfolk's current line of "get orrf my laaand" and the militant paddlers approach of "I'll paddle where I want, when I want, how I want", isn't going anywhere fast.
    I refuse to let the fact that I haven't got a clue what I'm doing hold me back in any aspect of my life.

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    As a paddler and fisherman I don't see what all the fuss is about! Never bothered me when canoists pass by, even before I started paddling (unless of course being overly loud and unruly) but all the paddlers I met before starting canoeing were curteous and passed by on the opposite side of the river with a hello and a wave.
    Never messed with my catches, I think some fisherman think that because they pay a premium to fish and pay for licences they have the only use of the water.
    Just Selfish and childish in my opinion, we should all be able to use waterways together, doubt it will ever change though.
    If in doubt, hit it with a hammer!!

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    Of course, paddlers occasionally disturb fish, as do many, many other factors. On some occasions we may even disturb fish in a way that improves the fishermen's chances of catching, by moving them from one part of a river to the next. Interesting to hear folks' thoughts on how different species are affected too.

    I spent 7 years working in the Fly Fishing industry. Half way through that I took up canoeing. None of my colleagues batted an eyelid, and fortunately I found this the view of by far the vast majority. This was probably because they recognised that I was responsible and understanding of other people, and if both "sides" continue to take that approach, there will be fewer and fewer problems. I'm pleased to say that in the 8 years since I took up canoeing, the situation seems a lot less confrontational, and the anglers I meet almost always friendly and even interested. I've often pondered that it's a shame that it would seem rude to stop for a chat, so as to avoid further disturbance of a pool/swim, as when we do talk, many of the motivations for being out in the countryside turn out to be the same and we're all enjoying a lovely peaceful day.

    One question I've always had, for those (very rare) anglers who've shouted at me "you've completely ruined my day by disturbing the fish". Do you give up and go after the first catch of the day, as surely fighting and landing that will have disturbed the fish in the area far more than any canoe drifting quietly through?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    One question I've always had, for those (very rare) anglers who've shouted at me "you've completely ruined my day by disturbing the fish". Do you give up and go after the first catch of the day, as surely fighting and landing that will have disturbed the fish in the area far more than any canoe drifting quietly through?
    We've completely ruined their day... by winding them up. I've seen a couple of fishermen get themselves so wound up, I very much doubt they were able to sit back down and carry on fishing after I've moved on. The troll of Hallcroft Weir... I thought we were going to have to get out and give him first aid.

    Probably would have had to, if he'd hit Warthog with that rock.

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    It is strange that just north of the England/Scotland border the attitude of anglers is amazingly different to south of said border.

    Even the River Tweed, that unknown to me starts its salmon season when the England season finishes, over four days of paddling resulted in one irate fisher (yep, he was English and southern) while the other few hundred chatted politely, joked and even offered to swap activities. I dread to think what they paid to fish there??

    I and my group of friends enjoyed our tour and had many friendly chats, we even helped a few anglers by running messages to ghillies down stream. Some even apologised because they realised that we were going out of our way to avoid where they fished.

    Why, in so few miles does an attitude change so dramatically

    Yes, their activity did disturb me because I could not take the best line down the river and paddled through adverse flows in eddies, sometimes running aground in shallows, all to avoid their fishing spots. But their attitude did not disturb me because they were willing to share a river with others.



    As is clear from the comments above, abuse, threats and violence is too common even on humble canals (Where boating is normal. That is what they were built for). I have had comments from narrowboat and barge users suffering all this aggro too. Why? I have received unwanted maggots but my satisfaction came when I stopped collected the maggots and walked back along the canal, I have never seen the colour drain from anyone so quickly and effectively. No anger on my part, I dropped them in his lap and said don't do it again. Maybe he won't or he has been given a pasting by now.

    The waters, except the private ponds, are not for the exclusive use of anglers. Get used to it and tell your Angling Trust to change their propaganda and lies, to stop inciting hatred and anger.

    Hatred and anger, yes they are strong words but that is what comes over from meetings with some anglers and reading the AT literature.

    Doug
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougoutcanoe View Post

    Even the River Tweed, that unknown to me starts its salmon season when the England season finishes,
    Just to correct you, the River Tweed has a season which starts at the same or similar time to England and Wales, but finishes a month later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyads View Post
    I think some fisherman think that because they pay a premium to fish and pay for licences they have the only use of the water.
    Just Selfish and childish in my opinion, we should all be able to use waterways together, doubt it will ever change though.
    It's not just a case of being selfish, they misunderstand what they are actually paying for. The landowner via the laws built into the "Riparian Rights" owns the exclusive right to take fish from any riverbank he owns, this goes back to the days before freezers when fresh food in the winter was scarce and valuable. The angler is paying the landowner either direct or via a club to use his rights to the fish for a short period, his rod licence money is all spent by the EA to build up the fish stocks so he has something to catch. We use none of these facilities so what would we be paying for, the general river maintenance is paid for out of taxation not the rod licence.

    On the subject of scaring fish, we have a duty to be courteous and respectful to other river users. If despite doing this the fish are disturbed "Tough, get over it", when the Riparian rights were formed fishermen would have used the most effective method to catch the fish, not sitting there all day using the least effective method just for fun. This is the anglers choice and in my opinion they have no legal right to demand we curtail our legitimate activities to accommodate them.
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    Most i have met are simply selfish and childish. Get off "MY" River (selfish) "NO" I have as much right as you to be here. I know I'll thow a stone at the canoeist (childish)!
    If in doubt, hit it with a hammer!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyads View Post
    Most i have met are simply selfish and childish. Get off "MY" River (selfish) "NO" I have as much right as you to be here. I know I'll thow a stone at the canoeist (childish)!
    I must be lucky in that I have never had stones thrown at me, this is a serious offence, it's the football stand mentality in that they feel brave when they are in numbers and think they can't be identified. A camera is the best weapon to use against them, a photo plus location should be enough info to identify them if they are fishing in a controlled area. They are most likely going to be club members rather than day ticket holders so send a picture and location to the police, they will be duty bound to at least contact the club to make enquiries. It may not lead to action being taken by the police but it will serve as a first warning.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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    Quote Originally Posted by BennyGesserit View Post
    However then some guy appears , with his dog , asking "caught anything mate ?" and they disappeared with a flurry of slapping tails.

    Now experience now tells me that the way to fish for carp with bread is to get them feeding first , but to me my morning had been ruined as they never reappeared.
    Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Benny. Until now I have foolishly believed that simple politeness and courtesy would go a long way towards resolving conflict between river users. I now understand that, faced with interference of this nature, only a total exclusion zone will avoid such situations. Other than areas that might contain people or dogs, are there any other areas that you think anglers need to exclude themselves from?
    Last edited by KeithD; 15th-December-2016 at 10:34 PM.
    Keith

  34. #154

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    Keith I was trying to be conciliatory while still making my point and answering the OP's question ( and just that question ).
    I am not suggesting that dogs be excluded I am suggesting that a passing canoe will significantly interfere with quite a few forms of fishing,

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    I must be lucky in that I have never had stones thrown at me, this is a serious offence, it's the football stand mentality in that they feel brave when they are in numbers and think they can't be identified. A camera is the best weapon to use against them, a photo plus location should be enough info to identify them if they are fishing in a controlled area. They are most likely going to be club members rather than day ticket holders so send a picture and location to the police, they will be duty bound to at least contact the club to make enquiries. It may not lead to action being taken by the police but it will serve as a first warning.
    A cemera is definitely your friend. If an angler behaved badly up here(and there was evidence) he or she would come before the committee. Throwing a rock would get them thrown out the club, I'm sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Benny. Until now I have foolishly believed that simple politeness and courtesy would go a long way towards resolving conflict between river users. I now understand that, faced with interference of this nature, only a total exclusion zone will avoid such situations. Other than areas that might contain people or dogs, are there any other areas that you think anglers need to exclude themselves from?
    This offers us a valuable clue.

    To avoid having a paddler - or group of paddlers - disturb the firsherman you need:
    Five kids aged 8 to 11
    A large hairy dog - called timmy
    A few lashings of ginger beer.

    These are sent ahead as the "Bankside Expeditionary Force".

    The paddler(s) follow at a discrete distance - comiserating with the victims and trying not to smirk.
    This post may vanish at any moment.

  37. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Benny. Until now I have foolishly believed that simple politeness and courtesy would go a long way towards resolving conflict between river users. I now understand that, faced with interference of this nature, only a total exclusion zone will avoid such situations. Other than areas that might contain people or dogs, are there any other areas that you think anglers need to exclude themselves from?
    But, what if I have my dog, and my fishing rod, IN my canoe?? I'm SO confused now.........

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    I'm sorry sk8r but you will have to decide for yourself if your and your dog's presence is such a disturbance that you need to give up your day's fishing.

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    Embrace the inner angler.

    Anglers are just the same as you and I. All men are brothers until the day they die.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    All men are brothers until the day they die.
    All people are brothers and sisters, maybe, if you subscribe to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    All people are brothers and sisters, maybe, if you subscribe to that.
    Who doesn't?

    It's a quote from the song, Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Embrace the inner angler.

    Anglers are just the same as you and I. All men are brothers until the day they die.

    Good find. I prefer the original version - the one most of that audience hadn't heard before.

    It caused a bit of a stink when it came out - but only with short people .

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    I sent the video link to my 5' 2" mate or possibly ex mate by now.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  44. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I'm sorry sk8r but you will have to decide for yourself if your and your dog's presence is such a disturbance that you need to give up your day's fishing.
    LMFAO!! Well said!!

  45. #165

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    But, what if I have my dog, and my fishing rod, IN my canoe??
    Any fish you might catch would be a figment of your imagination, until you or the dog have eaten them, after which they would not exist at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_B View Post
    Any fish you might catch would be a figment of your imagination, until you or the dog have eaten them, after which they would not exist at all.
    Schrodinger's fish??


  47. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    I sent the video link to my 5' 2" mate or possibly ex mate by now.
    Hah!

  48. #168

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    Just my 2 cents, I can't abide fishing when its not for food. I see no point in it, in fact no better than shooting game for sport.

    Paddling does no harm whatsoever, so there's that.

    And I live on a boat so I'm pretty well versed in everyone's point of view since I hear it all, all the time.

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  49. #169
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    But surely anglers may feel exactly the same way about our hobby? They may say what you said but change a few words.

    "I dont see the point in canoeing for recreation purposes, but I have no problem with its intended use as transport".

    It has to be looked at from both sides, I enjoy fishing and canoeing as I said in a previous post I have had issues with anglers but not all of them are to blame and a small percentage of canoeists are not entirely blameless. I have seen my fair share of canoeists not making it easy for us with their behaviour on the water.
    If in doubt, hit it with a hammer!!

  50. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyads View Post
    But surely anglers may feel exactly the same way about our hobby? They may say what you said but change a few words.

    But Jimmy, no-one eats canoes. Unless they do and nobody told me! Maybe that's what they all carry these fireboxes and industrial scale kettles for?

    And canoes, like zombies, cannot be killed.

    So the analogy does not hold. Therefore everything you say is wrong, and the debate is now finished.

    Nothing more to see here.

    Thanks to everyone for their contributions over the aeons.


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  51. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceryni View Post
    Just my 2 cents, I can't abide fishing when its not for food. I see no point in it, in fact no better than shooting game for sport.

    Paddling does no harm whatsoever, so there's that.

    And I live on a boat so I'm pretty well versed in everyone's point of view since I hear it all, all the time.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    Your whole being rests lightly on your float, but not drowsily: very alert, so that the least twitch of the float arrives like an electric shock. And you are not only watching the float. You are aware , in a horizonless and slightly mesmerised way, like listening to the double bass in orchestral music, of the fish below in the dark. At every moment your imagination is alarming itself with the size of the thing slowly leaving the weeds and approaching your bait. Or with the world of beauties down there, suspended in total ignorance of you. And the whole purpose of this concentrated excitement, in this arena of apprehension and unforeseeable events, is to bring up some lovely solid thing like livingmetal from a world where nothing exists but those inevitable facts which raise life out of nothing and return it to nothing

    Ted Hughes

  52. #172
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    That not what I meant, Everyone has there own interests and just because 1 person does not like anothers interests who are we to judge. That was my opinion so what I say is not wrong.
    If in doubt, hit it with a hammer!!

  53. #173
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    Well that didn't work.

    "I stepped up on the platform. The man gave me the news. He said - you must be joking, son, where did you get those shoes?"

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    If in doubt, hit it with a hammer!!

  55. #175
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    Nope, Crow the fishy folk will not be happy until they rid all waters of boats of any kind on rivers, lakes and canals.

    Thus they will take on their bankside meditation in tranquility until Dogman or woman, come along and ask, "'av ya catched anyfing yet?" Or marauding kids and adults hurtle along on bikes!

    Boats, bikes, people with dogs and wild children will all be cordoned off to leave the anglers in peace.

    Doug
    When there's trouble on shore, there's peace on the wave,
    Afloat in the White Canoe.
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  56. #176
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    Other fish disturbance is natural but they have a "death on sight" tag on them,

    Angler enemy number:

    1. Cormorant
    2. Goosander
    3. Otter
    4. Grey seal (lost its way)
    5. Beaver??




    Doug
    When there's trouble on shore, there's peace on the wave,
    Afloat in the White Canoe.
    Alan Sullivan


  57. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougoutcanoe View Post
    Other fish disturbance is natural but they have a "death on sight" tag on them,

    Angler enemy number:

    1. Cormorant
    2. Goosander
    3. Otter
    4. Grey seal (lost its way)
    5. Beaver??




    Doug
    Well, not to stir the pot any more, but I share ALL of the waters I fish with all of those but the Seal - and there are plenty of beaver, but they DON'T eat fish. (don't have any seals around here ) (and we call them Mergansers... ). We also have a lot of Northern Water Snakes who eat a LOT of fish. And the bears take a whole lot of fish, especially in the Fall. Then there are many many snapping turtles - also take a ton of fish. The list is pretty long BUT.... there seems to be plenty of fish for us all to retire each night well fed. Just sayin'.......

  58. #178
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    The Angling Trust is pretty extreme in their beliefs.

    The want to kill anything that eats "their" fish (they do, of course own every fish in the UK???). But they do not include pike, trout, salmon and many other predatory fish in their desire to kill fish eating animals??? The beaver bit was included on their web site and led to lots of humour at them.

    Some anglers, fisheries (the people that sell the right fish) and organisations like Angling Trust make for excellent stories. For people like Sk8r living outside the UK it must look like we are writing pure fiction but sadly it is true.

    Doug
    When there's trouble on shore, there's peace on the wave,
    Afloat in the White Canoe.
    Alan Sullivan


  59. #179

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    I just googled this Trust thing - ROFL!! I actually did laugh out loud when I read some of the stuff on their site. like this piece of shite:


    "By coordinating shooting, we aim to condition birds in the most efficient manner not to predate on our valuable fish stocks. We have also seen great success using lifelike mannequins, which mimic the river keeper. These are completely weatherproof, easy to move, and by shooting from behind them, birds are conditioned to fear them, thus further protecting your fishery."

    Apparently these folks don't understand that the cormorants aren't fishing for fun - it's survival, and they can't be "conditioned" into starving themselves to death. And besides, cormorant tastes flppin' awful... have the Angling Trust talked to any actual bird hunters?? LMFAO!

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    There was some criticism a while back at the suggestion that you couldn't have a constructive discussion like this on the angling fora.
    Without knowing whether there is an ironic eyebrow raised or a tongue-in-cheek when posting some of these comments you could be forgiven for thinking that we're descending to a level where we can no longer discuss it constructively either!
    Whilst I personally find the killing of creatures for sport pointless & cruel (although I'm perfectly happy with hunting for the pot) I don't think that this is really in the spirit of the OP. Just saying.



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