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Thread: Magna carta clause 33 what dies it mean for us idiots out here.

  1. #1

    Default Magna carta clause 33 what dies it mean for us idiots out here.

    Ok so here goes I hope I don't confuse anyone on here as I am not the best with written word.

    After some polite words with an angler whilst on the river mersy a few weeks ago near warrington.
    I contacted warrington angling asociation with regards to becoming a member I was told that they will NOT allow fishing on any of their waters under any circumstances from any watercraft and that it us illegal to do so the lady stated also that they only control the bank fishing rights, she also informed me that the stretch of the river I was kayaking was unavaiagable and that the only people who can use this stretch of the river is the rowing club as they have exclusive rights and as such should I paddle there I will be breaking the law.

    Ever since I have contacted peel ports who have taken over the Manchester ship canal company and they seem to be unable to tell me any different if I may or may not paddle there, however he did say if the rowing club use it then it must be ok i await email respinse from him as he is looking into it for me.
    I have also contacted the rowing club and got nothing back from them, I will however add that I put in on the rowing clubs slipway and also park in front of the club when I have put in/ taken out on numerous occasions, and that rowing club members have been present and no one has ever challenged me and said I am paddling illegally, to the contrary I had a chat with a gent from the rowing club about being in the way and he said I was fine as long as my car was well ou the way.

    Today I have read about clause 33 on the river access for all website and reading the article on clause 33 I'd like to ask if I invoke clause 33 when told I can't use the water will I appear idiot, and can someone tell me in bite sized chunks for the slightly stupid what exactly try clause 33 is.

    Again sorry if this is all hard to understand as not the best litteraly but I don't want to give up this fantastic stretch of river without a fight.

    Daz
    Last edited by Dazza1shot; 28th-August-2015 at 04:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    You can always say to an angler who tries to challenge you that the fishing club may have the rights to fish, but that is distinctly different and separate from the right to navigate, and then ask them whether they have also purchased the navigational rights?<br><br>That' ll shut them up.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Perry View Post
    You can always say to an angler who tries to challenge you that the fishing club may have the rights to fish, but that is distinctly different and separate from the right to navigate, and then ask them whether they have also purchased the navigational rights?<br><br>That' ll shut them up.
    Here's mate this lady who I spoke to from the anging association claims that there are only navigation rights for the rowing club, is it safe to assume that it is either navigation rights for all of none at all ?

    Also I do want to fish again she says that the association only has rights to fish the bank so where does this leave me as I am only interested in predator fishing and I am sure the club does not stock the river with these fish, I would also like to add that I keep well away from any bank anglers as some parts are over 25 metre wide so enough room for all, plus the side I fish are the areas that owing to giant hogweed the bank fishermen cannot reach.

    It baffles me that they try to stop me using the river and yet are oblivious to the fact that on k return journey I collect litter from the said unreachable areas making the river a nicer place for all.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazza1shot View Post
    It baffles me that they try to stop me using the river and yet are oblivious to the fact that on k return journey I collect litter from the said unreachable areas making the river a nicer place for all.
    Perhaps that's because you are applying logic, common sense and fairness to the situation, whereas they.....!
    Juvanile delinkwit, vaguely faffing around with a pair of pliers. Du skal ikke tro at du er bedre end mig!

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    Some anglers wish to remove all paddlers from all rivers. Trying to do so on the Mersey is an example of their encroaching. Not many years ago, the only fish in the Mersey were Manchester Goldfish and they would not dip a hook and line trying to catch them.

    If rowers can use the river in their craft then we have the same rights of navigation. We do not require the permission of anglers!

    Doug
    When there's trouble on shore, there's peace on the wave,
    Afloat in the White Canoe.
    Alan Sullivan


  6. #6
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    Perhaps you ought to read some of the other access threads to get up to speed on this subject.

    However to answer your question:-

    If I 'own' the river, or at least the navigation rights then I can lease, give or let them to whoever I want. ie, an individual or group/club or everyone/pay who'll pay.

    Asregards the angling, a club can make what rules it wishes. Fishing from one bank, two banks , mondays only, no fishing from boats/canoes and so on.

    If you fish club water, that is a club which has purchased or leased the riparian rights to fish, then strickly speaking you are in effect stealing from the club regardless of whether they've stocked the water with giant carp or minnows and you only want the sticklebacks.

    As for the litter, I'm glad you do pick it up but many simply do not bother and its not really a part of the issue of access.

    Personally, I'd stop bothering asking and just carry on canoeing. To stop you they'd have to take out a court injuction and thats almost as rare as chicken's teeth.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Perry View Post

    Asregards the angling, a club can make what rules it wishes. Fishing from one bank, two banks , mondays only, no fishing from boats/canoes and so on.

    If you fish club water, that is a club which has purchased or leased the riparian rights to fish, then strickly speaking you are in effect stealing from the club regardless of whether they've stocked the water with giant carp or minnows and you only want the sticklebacks.

    As for the litter, I'm glad you do pick it up but many simply do not bother and its not really a part of the issue of access.

    That's just it though the club have told me that their rights are for tge bankside only and insist that tge fishing from any water craft us a non entity as there are no navigation rights for any craft other than that of tge rowing club.

    Yes I understand the litter issue and I understand that it is not part of the issues of access my point is among that litter is discarded fishing tackle and beer cans perhaps left by anglers, therefore my point was that the issue is not with me but in fact lies with their hypocrisy, the anglers in my opinion are not actually interested in the actual river or the surrounding area take away the fish and most would not go near.

    Regards to carrying on I have had an email finally come through from the rowing club secretary who advised that there s no issue whatsoever and that they to have the occasional crossed word with the bank anglers.

    May buy a membership and act stupid if approached, as for theft it is coarse fishing so not removing anything since not see a theft case standing, and having read some of the other access posts apart from th EA no one has any legal authority to detain me if u am reading correctly.
    Last edited by Dazza1shot; 28th-August-2015 at 08:46 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazza1shot View Post
    .... their hypocrisy, the anglers in my opinion are not actually interested in the actual river or the surrounding area take away the fish and most would not go near.
    Yes, the anglers only moved in when the fish could survive in the river. They had no interest in it before.

    Doug
    When there's trouble on shore, there's peace on the wave,
    Afloat in the White Canoe.
    Alan Sullivan


  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougoutcanoe View Post
    Some anglers wish to remove all paddlers from all rivers. Trying to do so on the Mersey is an example of their encroaching. Not many years ago, the only fish in the Mersey were Manchester Goldfish and they would not dip a hook and line trying to catch them.

    If rowers can use the river in their craft then we have the same rights of navigation. We do not require the permission of anglers!

    Doug
    Indeed they do and the reason they have fish to speak of is a result of a the mersy basin clean up campaign that I belive cost in excess of a billion of taxpayers money., that is what makes it even more unbelievable that one discipline believe they have greater rights over another.

  10. #10
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    Putting the access to one side, if they own the fishing rights it covers all fish and you will be breaking the law if you fish without a club and rod licence, if you become a member and fish from your canoe then you may be breaking club rules but not the law, so the worst they can do is kick you out of the club.

    They most certainly do not control the navigation rights so they can not stop you canoeing, all they can do is kick you out of the club if you decide to join. It all depends on what is most important to you fishing the river or canoeing the river, it looks unlikely that you can do both unless you wear a disguise when you paddle.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Putting the access to one side, if they own the fishing rights it covers all fish and you will be breaking the law if you fish without a club and rod licence, if you become a member and fish from your canoe then you may be breaking club rules but not the law, so the worst they can do is kick you out of the club.

    They most certainly do not control the navigation rights so they can not stop you canoeing, all they can do is kick you out of the club if you decide to join. It all depends on what is most important to you fishing the river or canoeing the river, it looks unlikely that you can do both unless you wear a disguise when you paddle.
    Yeah mate I realise I may well be breaking the law mate but surely it does not constitute theft if I don't remove anything ? Luckily there is a part that the do not own the rights to a certain part so I should be ok because I will not fish till I get to that part (honest).

    Really wish we could be more civilised like the scots though they can paddle and fish where they like maybe ill emigrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazza1shot View Post
    Yeah mate I realise I may well be breaking the law mate but surely it does not constitute theft if I don't remove anything ? Luckily there is a part that the do not own the rights to a certain part so I should be ok because I will not fish till I get to that part (honest).

    Really wish we could be more civilised like the scots though they can paddle and fish where they like maybe ill emigrate.
    The law on fishing rights is well established, if you fish without a rod licence and permission from the owner of the fishing rights you will end up in court, it is theft plain and simple, in our area there have recently been a couple of court cases both were found guilty. If you want free fishing you need to take up Sea fishing, this is free from beaches and tidal estuaries on land or from a boat, but you will still need a rod licence if you catch fresh water species.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    The law on fishing rights is well established, if you fish without a rod licence and permission from the owner of the fishing rights you will end up in court, it is theft plain and simple, in our area there have recently been a couple of court cases both were found guilty. If you want free fishing you need to take up Sea fishing, this is free from beaches and tidal estuaries on land or from a boat, but you will still need a rod licence if you catch fresh water species.

    Ok mate looks like that is that, so how would you think I am fixed for travelling to what is known as the dead arm area of the mersey ?
    No club has the rights to that area , but I would need to pass through the area in order to get to the said fishing spot would I be classed as attempting theft?
    I'd like to point out that I do have EA ROD LICENCE​ as I get the impressimpression you think I don't going by yyour need tto highlight the words and write it iin bold lettring.

    Perhaps you are right it may be ti e to break out the disguise

    I just can't get my head around why I cannot fish and paddle at the same time on the river the EA states that paddlers don't bother the fish and anglers are starting g to wake up and agree, so surely it is better to have one more member and boost the funds.

    I have no interest in fishing any of their other venues ever and the river is big enough for both.
    Last edited by Dazza1shot; 29th-August-2015 at 09:03 AM.

  14. #14

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    Fishing without a permit, new police code for "theft of fishing rights".

    http://www.anglingtrust.net/news.asp...ing+Trust+News

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    If you want to debate the rights a wrongs of the fishing laws you may get better information on a fishing forum, just because a section of river is not controlled by an Angling Club does not mean that it is open to anyone to fish. The fishing rights are owned by the landowner so you would be stealing from them instead of the Angling Club, you would need to obtain permission from the landowner.

    The reason I highlighted the "Rod Licence" is that most people think you don't need one to fish in the Sea, most don't but some do depending on the fish you catch.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    If you want to debate the rights a wrongs of the fishing laws you may get better information on a fishing forum, just because a section of river is not controlled by an Angling Club does not mean that it is open to anyone to fish. The fishing rights are owned by the landowner so you would be stealing from them instead of the Angling Club, you would need to obtain permission from the landowner.

    The reason I highlighted the "Rod Licence" is that most people think you don't need one to fish in the Sea, most don't but some do depending on the fish you catch.

    Apologies for getting my own back up in read it wrong I dare not go anywhere near a fishing forum mate for as I have perused many and it appears I would not be welcome on them, if peel ports get back to me about kayak access I am going to ask them about fishing on the area with no rights and then perhaps carry a laminated copy of the email at al, times when on the water.

    Would it be worth in your opinion pointing out to the fishing club that I have a right to paddle and I will do so regardless of the fact I can't fish there, in the hope that they would indeed agree to allowing me membership of the club to fish from my boat ?

    Again sorry for taking your response wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazza1shot View Post
    Would it be worth in your opinion pointing out to the fishing club that I have a right to paddle and I will do so regardless of the fact I can't fish there, in the hope that they would indeed agree to allowing me membership of the club to fish from my boat ?

    Again sorry for taking your response wrong.
    The Fishing Club have no authority to stop you paddling, they only control the fishing, if challenged politely tell then that and continue to paddle. I would not discuss the right to navigate with them again, only fishing rights if you want to join the club.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougoutcanoe View Post
    If rowers can use the river in their craft then we have the same rights of navigation.
    Doug
    Not necessarily - The Mersey (and Irwell) was made navigable on this section by Act of Parliament on 17th June 1721 and the navigation company were given rights to collect tolls and control navigation. Through a very long list of changes, that right now rests with the Manchester Ship Canal Company - Peel Ports. When the rowing club started they gave permission on the understanding that they provide at least one powered rescue craft with qualified helmsman every time anyone is on the water, and that the club also confer with the company regarding the expected state of the river. It is possible that in the intervening years a more lenient attitude has been taken or the restriction on the club lifted - or the current club members don't know what went on before.

    The section is quite frequently paddled, although I wouldn't say it is the most interesting bit of river. As someone who lives very close to the river (but a bit further upstream) I have seen it in all states and I wouldn't think it is any more dangerous than the Dee at Chester. However, the centre section of Woolston Weir is a siphon weir and if you go in there that's probably your demise. The channels either side of the siphon have nasty underwater teeth to reduce souring.

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    I wasn't going to get involved in the access debate as its normally ends up going in circles, but this is my back yard - literally.

  19. #19

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    Hill loch fishers often don't ask permission outside Protection Area in Scotland as a refusal = disobedience if you continue.
    My advice is, be discreet, be polite if you meet anyone, DON'T ASK, and so I agree with this quote above:
    "Personally, I'd stop bothering asking and just carry on canoeing".
    Happy padling!

  20. #20
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    Fishing is free at sea or in most, if not all tidal waters which is normally up to the mean high water mark. You'll not be asked for a rod licence (unless fishing for trout / salmon). I've not come across anyone who has been asked for a rod licence on tidal water other than salmon or Sea trout anglers. Probably because most EA employees know that you probably won't be fishing for fresh water (coarse) fish or salmon or trout)! If you are fishing for fish other than coarse fish and you accidentally catch, say a Sea Trout or a roach which sometimes occupy tidal stretches you will not be committing an offence - if you put it back immediately!! -AND your method of fishing is consistent with catching sea or tidal species. This is because to obtain a successful prosecution the EA will have to prove 'intent', which your mode of fishing normally will dictate what you are likely to catch. The exception, regarding a licence, is for migratory salmon & sea trout where you need a special licence to fish for them.

    There is no general legal right of access to the foreshore though tidal or elsewhere so you can't really trespass to get to tidal waters. But you can paddle them and fish from your canoe.

    'Free fishing' can be had on many inland waters both ponds/lakes & sections of rivers. For example my local rivers have sections where the fishing is not controlled or leased to some angling group/s. These stretches are not advertised on the bank by notices but you can normally find out where to go by googling 'free fishing'+ the river's name, or simply visiting an angling shop where they'll point you in the right direction. Just found this link http://www.dofreefishing.com/northwestnorthern.html Sometimes the landowner of 'free fisheries' is a public body, such as a highways body, or council, sometimes its simply common land where there is an established right to fish and probably the most common (in this area) is the landowner simply cannot be bothered to lease the water to a club or necessarily wants his banks occupied by ranks of fishermen. Sometimes is polite or worth asking the owner if you can fish his pond or lake - I've done this with and without success and fished ponds where fishing hardly ever, if ever takes place. TI've never had to ask for rivers because as I mentioned the landowner often allows fishing by default and if you ask in an angling shop they'll know this and you wont' have to chase the owner up.

    I've only once been a club fisherman many years ago but now only go places where I know the fishing is 'free'. You'll still need a Rod Licence though!!


    I'm not going to get into fishing from a canoe in freshwater other than to say there is no 'law' to stop you other than the fact that if you've paid to join a club they may not want you in as a club member, to fish from a canoe - any other craft. This may not be something they've dreamt up to annoy fishing canoeists but simply something the riperian landowner has placed as a condition of its lease.

    I have fished and accessed many waterways and rivers in a canoe. the previous poster, nic a char has just about summed up my position on this - don't ask permission and be discrete.

    NB. Don't take my word as a final legal arguement as there are always exceptions and not a few, 'yes buts", and differing fishing bylaws locally, especially on tidal waters.

    A good legal bible is 'Angling and The Law; Peter Carty & Simon Payne, Merlin Unwin books. You can probably get it by ordering it from your local library.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

  21. #21
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    The "dofreefishing" website is interesting, I had no idea so many places are available, plenty to go at in the Lake District.

    This is another site, http://www.visitthames.co.uk/things-...g/free-fishing
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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