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Thread: Access in the USA is not that easy it seems....

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    Default Access in the USA is not that easy it seems....

    Tony BR
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    Only in America can you get shot for canoeing - I hope!!
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    We lived in the USA for a few years from 2004. I took my horse with me and was flabbergasted to learn that the onus was on me not to get shot. Wear a cow bell and orange hi viz was the official advice from the state park where I used to ride. If I had been mistaken for a deer that would have been my fault.

    We lived in a waterfront house on Chesapeake Bay so canoeing was much easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Perry View Post
    Only in America can you get shot for canoeing - I hope!!
    Dunno, I've been threatened by it before in England.

    Now I wish to God I'd joined those men when they were set ashore, but I chose a wild and a reckless life serving under Captain Moore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcabb View Post
    We lived in the USA for a few years from 2004. I took my horse with me and was flabbergasted to learn that the onus was on me not to get shot. Wear a cow bell and orange hi viz was the official advice from the state park where I used to ride. If I had been mistaken for a deer that would have been my fault.

    Yes, it would. In many jurisdictions in the US and Canada (including where I live) it is mandatory, when there is an open Deer Season, for any hunter, even those NOT after deer, to wear a minimum of 400 sq. in. of blaze orange, including headgear. It just makes good sense. Since the introduction of these laws, accidental shootings have all but disappeared. So, when I'm after ruffed grouse during deer season..... :





    If all hunters acted properly, and identified their targets clearly and unambiguously, this wouldn't be necessary. Most do. But it only takes one idiot to kill someone.

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    I can see the demand for punt guns may rise.

    On a more serious note you should never feel threatened by someone with a gun, if they are legitimately out shooting and decide to enter into a conversation with you they are obliged to show that the gun is safe. For example if it is a shotgun it should be broken and the cartridges removed, if that is not the case you should ask them to do so. If they refuse and you feel threatened by their attitude they are committing an offence and should be reported to the police, the chances are they would lose their licence.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    On a more serious note you should never feel threatened by someone with a gun, if they are legitimately out shooting and decide to enter into a conversation with you they are obliged to show that the gun is safe. For example if it is a shotgun it should be broken and the cartridges removed, if that is not the case you should ask them to do so. If they refuse and you feel threatened by their attitude they are committing an offence and should be reported to the police, the chances are they would lose their licence.

    I agree. I don't believe we have any such 'law' here (except when approached by Law Enforcement checking permits etc), but approaching ANYONE with a loaded gun in your hands is completely unacceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcabb View Post
    We lived in the USA for a few years from 2004. I took my horse with me and was flabbergasted to learn that the onus was on me not to get shot. Wear a cow bell and orange hi viz was the official advice from the state park where I used to ride. If I had been mistaken for a deer that would have been my fault.
    .
    Having read the article the shooting in this case was not an 'accident' - the armed landowner and a paddler who had stopped on a gravel bank in the river got into an argument at close quarters which resulted in the fatal shooting of the paddler. An unique outcome, more people get sued for trespass, compounded by differences in state / federal laws. And we though we had it bad dealing with just one set of courts and laws (and fewer guns).
    Brevan,
    1664 - a great year for river access
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    Laws are made for the lowest common denominator.

    People that shoot at colors and movement have no business in the woods let alone owning firearms.
    Lloyd

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    Yes, it would. In many jurisdictions in the US and Canada (including where I live) it is mandatory, when there is an open Deer Season, for any hunter, even those NOT after deer, to wear a minimum of 400 sq. in. of blaze orange, including headgear. It just makes good sense. Since the introduction of these laws, accidental shootings have all but disappeared. So, when I'm after ruffed grouse during deer season..... :

    If all hunters acted properly, and identified their targets clearly and unambiguously, this wouldn't be necessary. Most do. But it only takes one idiot to kill someone.
    Surely, even in America, the world isn't entirely made up of hunters and gun owners. What about that strange class of 'non-hunters' if there are any? Do they have to go about in high viz orange as well? If not what's the point of a rule that encourages people to assume they can blast away at anything not in orange?
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwing View Post
    Surely, even in America, the world isn't entirely made up of hunters and gun owners. What about that strange class of 'non-hunters' if there are any? Do they have to go about in high viz orange as well? If not what's the point of a rule that encourages people to assume they can blast away at anything not in orange?

    With respect, that's not what the regulation does, or was intended to do. As Lloyd said, anyone who fires without absolute certainty as to target and backstop shouldn't be in possession of a gun at all. Unfortunately, there are occasional brainless fools who do cause tragedy.

    As to 'non-hunters', there is an element of common sense in all this. The gun Deer season is quite short - around a couple of weeks in late October/early November in most places. If you live in a hunting area, you know full-well when hunters are in the woods & fields. Personally, I stay well away from those areas (unless I am hunting myself) during that entire time period, and so does pretty much everyone else.

    Legal Deer areas are NOT anywhere around urban centers, obviously. For example, from where I live I need to drive a minimum of one hour north to find my hunting woods. It is not, as you seem to suggest, a kind of "wild west" - far from it. Areas where the discharge of firearms is legal at all are very strictly defined and every municipality of which I am aware has a non-discharge by-law in place. Legal hunting activity doesn't, imo, impinge on any non-hunters simply because there isn't anybody around out there in late Fall (or almost any other time, actually).

    Hope that clarifies a bit.

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    Thanks, it does clarify things a bit and it's good to get an insight into other cultures. In particular I hadn't realised that areas where you could discharge guns were strictly defined, I had assumed that at least all privately owned land (hopefully excluding urban premises) would be free of such restrictions.

    Over here there aren't really hunters as such and the majority of people you would see in open land (we don't really have wilderness over here in the UK) would be walkers or photographers or suchlike so the idea of having a protection mechanism of orange dressing just for hunters seems odd. I think the effect would be to drive the non-orange non-hunters away from the huntable areas which over here would be generally viewed as entirely unacceptable and from your comments seems to be happening for you as well. Maybe with more space available and with it being just a couple of weeks season it works better for you than seems reasonable over here.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


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    Quote Originally Posted by gwing View Post
    Over here there aren't really hunters as such
    Oh yes there are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwing View Post
    .... I think the effect would be to drive the non-orange non-hunters away from the huntable areas which over here would be generally viewed as entirely unacceptable and from your comments seems to be happening for you as well. Maybe with more space available and with it being just a couple of weeks season it works better for you than seems reasonable over here.

    Yes, I think it's really a question of scale and population density. For example, the Forest Preserve of which I am a Member, and where I hunt (as well as snowshoe, run my dog, hike, take photos etc depending on the time of year...) is over 11,000 acres. Of that area, there is a clearly defined area of about 3000 acres where there is NO hunting and NO motorised vehicles etc - it is strictly reserved for equestrians, hikers, mountain bikers etc etc, so even during an open season, there is lots of space for recreational users of the Preserve other than hunters. And the Preserve is by no means heavily subscribed - in all the years I have been a Member there, I think I have seen another person out there maybe 4 or 5 times, ever. It's a BIG country....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ounce View Post
    Oh yes there are.
    Of course some folks hunt in the UK. I think, though, that gwing was probably referring to the fact that "big game" hunting - e.g. deer, moose, elk, bear etc - is far less common over there, as opposed to upland pot-shooting for rabbit, hare, game birds etc. Hunting here is a very traditional and socially acceptable activity, accessible to pretty much anyone who wants to go out (obviously after qualifying to own a gun and having taking all the requisite Courses allowing one to have hunting licences). Guns are relatively cheap and available almost anywhere, and there are massive areas of Crown Land open to anyone to hunt on. My impression (perhaps a wrong one? ) is that so-called big game hunting is the purview of a much smaller 'class' of people in the UK than it is over here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ounce View Post
    Oh yes there are.
    'as such' was intended as shorthand for a rather lengthy and tedious qualification explaining the lack of public hunting over here with the exception of some specific sub-classes generally referred to here as 'shooters', 'stalkers', 'poachers' or 'tweedy priveleged landowners' etc. who don't generally entirely operate quite like Joe Public across the pond. Will that do?

    I'll leave you to guess which of those above categories I used to belong to once upon a while
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwing View Post
    'as such' was intended as shorthand for a rather lengthy and tedious qualification explaining the lack of public hunting over here with the exception of some specific sub-classes generally referred to here as 'shooters', 'stalkers', 'poachers' or 'tweedy priveleged landowners' etc. who don't generally entirely operate quite like Joe Public across the pond. Will that do?

    I'll leave you to guess which of those above categories I used to belong to once upon a while

    My ol' Yorkshire Grandad was VERY proud of his 'lurcher'.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    Of course some folks hunt in the UK. I think, though, that gwing was probably referring to the fact that "big game" hunting - e.g. deer, moose, elk, bear etc - is far less common over there, as opposed to upland pot-shooting for rabbit, hare, game birds etc. Hunting here is a very traditional and socially acceptable activity, accessible to pretty much anyone who wants to go out (obviously after qualifying to own a gun and having taking all the requisite Courses allowing one to have hunting licences). Guns are relatively cheap and available almost anywhere, and there are massive areas of Crown Land open to anyone to hunt on. My impression (perhaps a wrong one? ) is that so-called big game hunting is the purview of a much smaller 'class' of people in the UK than it is over here?
    It's very much class related over here sk8r. Deer stalking, for example, is traditionally the preserve of the landed upper classes (or Russian oligarchs these days maybe), while going after ferrets would be a working class thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    It's very much class related over here sk8r. Deer stalking, for example, is traditionally the preserve of the landed upper classes (or Russian oligarchs these days maybe), while going after ferrets would be a working class thing.
    Aristos!! Aux armes, citoyens!

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    [QUOTE=Crow;579370]It's very much class related over here sk8r. Deer stalking, for example, is traditionally the preserve of the landed upper classes (or Russian oligarchs these days maybe), What a load of rubbish.

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    Please explain how it is not!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpydave View Post
    Please explain how it is not!
    Deer stalking is done where I live, by poaching scum locally and by scum who travel considerable distance too!

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    Up here it's done mostly by the 500 people who own half of Scotland, or their clients.

    Now I wish to God I'd joined those men when they were set ashore, but I chose a wild and a reckless life serving under Captain Moore.

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    I just did a quick check.

    If I want to go deer hunting in Scotland it will cost me £1950 for 4 days. I assume that does not include the costs of hanging out with the people that do it, as whisky is not getting any cheaper.

    Here in Nova Scotia I can get a 14 day license for $34.50... I can even take a British friend who gets a non resident license for $154.90

    We do not have any nobles over here. The Yanks made a point in the 18th century of letting them know how it was going to be, and so the Canadian ones took note.

    I blame Wat Tyler for the problem in the UK. He used too much diplomacy when he should have used terror.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Up here it's done mostly by the 500 people who own half of Scotland, or their clients.
    Shame you never got your independence, you could have booted them back over into England!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    Shame you never got your independence, you could have booted them back over into England!
    Bit unfair on the English, it seems that the ownership it now world wide, just as half of London is. The Old Scottish Lairds could restrict the sale to their own people if they wanted to, but normally they sell to the highest bidder and don't care where they're from. The worst culprit during the clearances was the Duchess of Sutherland a born and bred Scot.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/who-owns-scotland-1320933.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    If I want to go deer hunting in Scotland it will cost me £1950 for 4 days.
    Pheasant shooting can cost more than that. They charge £40 per bird, a team of 8 would expect to shoot at least 200 birds a day so that is about £1000 per day each exc accommodation. That is in England it may be less in Scotland.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    Deer stalking is done where I live, by poaching scum locally and by scum who travel considerable distance too!
    Deer stalking down my way isn't done enough by anyone. Deer numbers are an increasing ecological challenge and are becoming a significant road hazard in some areas. I've been reading up on this recently and was surprised to discover that there are estimated to be around 70,000 deer/vehicle collisions in the UK each year!

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    Who're you gonna call?

    http://www.bds.org.uk/

    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    estimated to be around 70,000 deer/vehicle collisions in the UK each year!
    Map here:
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    Bring back wolves and bears is what I say! The home counties need them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Bit unfair on the English, it seems that the ownership it now world wide, just as half of London is. The Old Scottish Lairds could restrict the sale to their own people if they wanted to, but normally they sell to the highest bidder and don't care where they're from. The worst culprit during the clearances was the Duchess of Sutherland a born and bred Scot.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/who-owns-scotland-1320933.html
    That's very true, Cloudman.

    It would be unfair on our neighbours to export them, so perhaps a humane cull is the answer...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    That's very true, Cloudman.

    It would be unfair on our neighbours to export them, so perhaps a humane cull is the answer...

    Quite right, if they've moved to the dark side we don't want them back.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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  33. #33

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    In Australia all native species are protected, except in very special circumstance. All feral species can be hunted with the permission of the land owner; these include rabbits, hares, cats, foxes, goats, pigs, dogs, deer, feralcattle, camels and water buffalo. The permit costs are minor or non existent. There are strict gun licensing laws. There is no concept of hunting being the preserve of a particular class of people. If you have a four wheel drive vehicle and a licensed gun, you are good to go.
    Doug Dew
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    Canada and Australia, second and third only, respectively, to Lincolnshire in regards of flat and empty wastelands where a stray shot might fall unimpeded to Earth miles and miles from anywhere important... or people.
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    Lincolnshire = 2687 sq. mi........... Lake Ontario = 7320 sq. mi......... just sayin'

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    Thank you so much for so admirably demonstrating my point as to how desolate Lincolnshire really is sk8r. Mere dimensions really don't cover it.
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    There is a rule in the media, "If it bleeds it Leads." The article was not from my perspective.

    I have boated for 50+ years in the USA and the only time we ever got in trouble was for bending the rules. Like sailing in a golf course water trap or pulling water skiers with a motorcycle in a barrow ditch. Both times the police were very polite and asked us to stop. As for land owners I have had them come down and visit as we camped below the high water mark on their land. We are always careful to leave a river or lake cleaner then when we came. I can't complain about access as I launch for free 99% of the time. I don't need a license for my canoes and kayaks. However they have mandated an annual invasive species permit for $7 per family for boats over 10 feet in Oregon. I expect some 90% of farmers and ranchers are armed but you would be hard pressed to get them to shoot you without being a threat. They are more likely to ask you to leave if you are trespassing than to threaten you. If I was in trouble I would not be reluctant to cross a field that was posted walk to the farm house and ask for help. I might have to pet his dog to get to the door. I have 50 bodies of water 50 miles from my home. I have paddled many of them with no questions, fees or license.

    No Tony we do not have an access problem except for access to the truth.
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