Results 1 to 38 of 38

Thread: Arrogant landowner attitude to public safety

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Merthyr Tydfil South Wales
    Posts
    727

    Default Arrogant landowner attitude to public safety

    Article from BBC news concerning use of snares on public access land.

    If they can get away with that behaviour on open access land, no wonder they think it is acceptable to put wire fences across rivers

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chesham in Bucks.
    Posts
    1,316

    Default

    I'm not keen on snares, and I can't believe I'm actually defending landowners, but as long as using snares remains legal I don't really see the landowners as being at fault here.

    If the snares were set on a recognised path, or adjacent to one where a dog might be expected to be running, that would be a different matter but when they are set in open contryside? Yes they do represent a danger, as do stones, potholes, animal burrows, bad weather etc. but I think if you choose to travel the open countrside off maintained paths you are yourself primarily responsible for your own safety. Running/racing across wild countryside that hasn't been checked in advance for dangers isn't really looking after yourself is it?
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Merthyr Tydfil South Wales
    Posts
    727

    Default

    I would argue it is a clear infringement of the Health and safety at work act, which states you have a responsibility for anyone who enters your premises whether invited or not.

    Placing unmarked snares in open access land is a deliberate act on the part of the landowner and therefore is a completely different issue to that of naturally occurring risks to the health and safety of visitors.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Devon ..just up from the bottom and right a bit.
    Posts
    2,302

    Default

    Snares... Horrible... I couldn't set a snare not knowing the outcome ..give me a gun any day. As for setting where there is public access.. Not ideal

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chesham in Bucks.
    Posts
    1,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nantcoly View Post
    I would argue it is a clear infringement of the Health and safety at work act, which states you have a responsibility for anyone who enters your premises whether invited or not.

    Placing unmarked snares in open access land is a deliberate act on the part of the landowner and therefore is a completely different issue to that of naturally occurring risks to the health and safety of visitors.
    I don't really dissagree with any of the above. It is worth noting though that the Health and Safety at work also places responsibility on the 'worker', in this case the runner,
    to (a) take reasonable care for their own safety (which I would interpret as watching where I put my feet when off path) (b) working with the employer/landowner to maintain safety (which I might interpret as notifying the landowner of any particular routes on the open land which were going to be used for a race or regular running and where the participants due to the nature of their activities may be at extra risk from obstacles).

    From the original referenced BBC article it does appear the landowner is at least trying to be responsible if they have published maps showing which areas have snares set in them. There are then a thousand questions as to whether all the areas were marked, how widely the information was published etc. but rather than attempting to apply Health and Safety at work reasoning to off-route open countryside I would be happier if the use of snares on public-access land (or preferably everywhere) was simply banned.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    3,732

    Default

    The runner is a member of the public and not considered a worker under the act. So the responsibiities of a worker do not apply to the runner.

    I suspect there is probably some local agreement or bylaw which might protect the landowner against the actions of the public or which lays resposibilities onto the user of the public access land.
    Last edited by mayobren; 29th-April-2015 at 03:35 PM.
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chesham in Bucks.
    Posts
    1,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mayobren View Post
    The runner is a member of the public and not considered a worker under the act. So the responsibiities of a worker do not apply to the runner.
    Ah well, so much for common sense. I'm in danger of changing a lifetimes way of thinking and perhaps coming round to the view that the landowner actually is being unfairly treated by these access reforms.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Southport, really in Lancashire, UK
    Posts
    1,820

    Default

    They'll be laying bamboo spears and other traps if they are not challenged about their irresponsible behaviour. Snares may not be illegal but responsible use is expected.

    Doug
    When there's trouble on shore, there's peace on the wave,
    Afloat in the White Canoe.
    Alan Sullivan


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    4,764

    Default

    A snare has to be one of the most barbaric methods of animal control ever invented and the sooner the things are banned the better.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    3,732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gwing View Post
    Ah well, so much for common sense. I'm in danger of changing a lifetimes way of thinking and perhaps coming round to the view that the landowner actually is being unfairly treated by these access reforms.
    Actually for me its quite the opposite, I think that we should start to think about land ownership in a different way. In the olden days landowners would argue they were stewards of the land maintaining it for the future whilst at the same time restricting access to the land they were stewarding to those who could afford to pay for field sports and the likes.
    For me land is a universal asset owned by us all & payed for by every citizens blood and sweat and not just those who hold the title to the land. I've never been able to understand how any one individual can own a mountain or a river!
    The Scots have got it right, responsible access for all, with the onus on responsible.
    I would never dispute a landowners right to earn a living but this has to also be earned in a responsible manner meeting the demands that society places on them.
    Snares are amongst the cruelest forms of "pest control" there is no place for them on land that is public access or anywhere else in Britain for that matter IMHO
    Last edited by mayobren; 29th-April-2015 at 04:33 PM.
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Bucks
    Posts
    6,575

    Default

    The relevant law is the Occupier's Liability Act last amended in 1995. It contains provision for recreational users and trespassers. It also acknowledges the use of notices and other warnings of presnet dangers. I won't go into it in any detail, you can easily look it up.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Bucks
    Posts
    6,575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mayobren View Post
    For me land is a universal asset owned by us all & payed for by every citizens blood and sweat and not just those who hold the title to the land. I've never been able to understand how any one individual can own a mountain or a river!
    I the UK, all land is effectively 'owned' by the Queen or the Crown; all other 'owners' merely own rights over it, described as 'fees'. This concept is long overdue for reform.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lochwinnoch, Scotland
    Posts
    16,567
    Journal Entries
    2

    Default

    In not sure pointing to Scotland is much help as you can set snares here too. I am no great fan of snares but as Gwing says if they are legal and set in accordance with best practice then I think the landowner is within their rights. Also I have to admit that I have no faith in any story that is getting most of its information from the league against cruel sports. The cynic in me could point out that this story could be summed up as "two unnamed runners fell while running on open moor and hurt themselves in no serious way."
    John

    I started at the bottom and I like it here

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    3,732

    Default

    I referenced Scotland regarding access not the snares and the BBC quoted from Dark peak fell runners regarding injuries to three runners not from the league against cruel sports.
    whether snares are legal or not isn't the issue its whether they should be used on land open to the public that is the concern
    but apart from the above I wholehartedly agree with your post John
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by http://runnersconnect.net/running-injury-prevention/why-runners-get-hurt/
    Recent research has shown that as many as 79% of runners get injured at least once during the year. Stop. Think about that number for a moment. Nearly 8 out of every 10 runners you see at your next race have been or will be injured sometime that year.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32503789
    Three runners have been injured in this location over the past five years.
    Actually, if you look at the statistics, it looks like quite a safe place to run, well below the expected numbers on a "running" forum.
    -------------------------
    You! Off my planet!

  16. #16
    monkey_pork's Avatar
    monkey_pork is offline a wind age, a wolf age - before the world goes headlong Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    -
    Posts
    4,856

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus2 View Post
    A snare has to be one of the most barbaric methods of animal control ever invented and the sooner the things are banned the better.
    Agreed entirely, not least as they are totally indiscriminate.

    I'm a bit surprised that the first runner to fall didn't do something with the snare in some way, purely so as to save someone else falling over it, as he had.

    A separate issue, but you rarely get injuries from just running.
    Almost all running injuries come from running with poor running posture (and that's often simply down to the wrong shoe choice).
    Last edited by monkey_pork; 29th-April-2015 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Formatting issues with my browser !!!

  17. #17
    Crow's Avatar
    Crow is offline こんにちは。私はカラスと私はスコットラ ンドの出身で す。
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Third stone from the sun
    Posts
    15,516
    Journal Entries
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MagiKelly View Post
    In not sure pointing to Scotland is much help as you can set snares here too. I am no great fan of snares but as Gwing says if they are legal and set in accordance with best practice then I think the landowner is within their rights. Also I have to admit that I have no faith in any story that is getting most of its information from the league against cruel sports. The cynic in me could point out that this story could be summed up as "two unnamed runners fell while running on open moor and hurt themselves in no serious way."
    What's wrong with the League Against Cruel Sports?

    Now I wish to God I'd joined those men when they were set ashore, but I chose a wild and a reckless life serving under Captain Moore.

    Crow Trip Log

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Southport, really in Lancashire, UK
    Posts
    1,820

    Default

    Shooting estate owners and their workers are systematically eradicating any natural predator from their land.

    Our moorlands have seen serious declines in Birds of Prey.

    In England the Hen Harrier is all but extinct. 4 breeding pairs raised a few young, satellite tagged and mysteriously disappeared. Satellite data mysteriously stopped with last known readings over grouse moors.

    Too many Birds of Prey are poisoned, trapped and shot but the culprits rarely get caught and fewer get to court and the odd ones that get convicted suffer pathetic "pocket change" penalties.

    These "custodians" of our land still live with Victorian attitudes to predators and ordinary people.

    Pheasant shooters are supplied with 34 million hand raised birds each year just to kill for fun. Few are eaten, most are burned, buried or just left to rot. This is shameful.

    I could go on more but.....

    If you want to see more visit https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com it covers all the UK.

    I have no respect for those that see the land and rivers as their exclusive playground, to use and abuse at their will.

    Doug

    I'll take care getting down from my soapbox.
    When there's trouble on shore, there's peace on the wave,
    Afloat in the White Canoe.
    Alan Sullivan


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    S. Yorkshire
    Posts
    516

    Default

    I live fairly near the Moscar estate, know one of the injured fell runners and have seen snares set in the area (I'm not sure if they were in exactly the same area as reported in the BBC article, but certainly on the same area of moor and the same estate). The snares were of a legal type and set with a small cane as shown in the photo in the article. ie in accordance with the law, just not very visible against the heather...
    I dont know if they're are checked daily or not - the law states they should be - but I have never seen an animal caught in one, so presumably they are checked.

    The area concerned is away from public rights of way but is CROW access land, and is popular with fell runners, who will often take 'off-piste' routes. The snares I saw were set on small trods through the heather - just the sort of path someone might follow for easier footing.

    So far the injuries sustained have been minor, but it really is only a matter of time before something more serious happens. A sprained ankle in bad weather up there can be the precursor to life-threatening hypothermia. If the estate has published a map or an advisory notice about this, then that's great, but as a regular user of the moors in that area, I wasnt aware of it. They're not breaking the law, but better publicity would reduce the risks to the public. It may well also lead to all their snares being removed by unknown persons, which might be why they havent spread the information more widely.

    Another article on the incident here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10213662.html

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lochwinnoch, Scotland
    Posts
    16,567
    Journal Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    What's wrong with the League Against Cruel Sports?
    I can answer that question but then I would need to ban myself
    John

    I started at the bottom and I like it here

  21. #21
    Crow's Avatar
    Crow is offline こんにちは。私はカラスと私はスコットラ ンドの出身で す。
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Third stone from the sun
    Posts
    15,516
    Journal Entries
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MagiKelly View Post
    I can answer that question but then I would need to ban myself
    Go on, you know you want to.

    Now I wish to God I'd joined those men when they were set ashore, but I chose a wild and a reckless life serving under Captain Moore.

    Crow Trip Log

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    6,968
    Journal Entries
    18

    Default

    In a world where kids routinely step on old landmines, this is the best the BBC can come up with to make people argue?

    But brown kids in far away places, far harder to pronounce than Sheffield do not count for much. Self entitled, privileged people are quick to point out when they think something is wrong, or that their rights are being trodden upon, but few take responsibility for their part in the society around them.

    Everyone wants their cat to go in the back garden to crap, their kid to be safe from rabies on the play ground, and they want their roast chicken at a rock bottom price too, but they do not want anyone to hurt the pretty little foxes. Well, their natural predators were all forced to extinction, and foxes can adapt to chickens, cats and your garbage as a food source, and as far as I am concerned they get first dibs on the game birds not the tweedy boys. You cannot have user friendly nature there England if you insist on cultivating, and pruning every square inch for human use.

    Snares are a pretty crappy way to go, but severe ecological imbalance problems have been created in the UK over a long period of time and you do not always get to pick the solutions to them from the box marked "Sunshine and Lolly Pops".
    Lloyd

    I never pay attention to anything by "experts". I calculate everything myself.
    Richard Feynman.

    www.senseaboutscience.org

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Go on, you know you want to.
    It's a good job there's only one of you Mr. Crow... or there would be murder
    -------------------------
    You! Off my planet!

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    3,732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    In a world where kids routinely step on old landmines, this is the best the BBC can come up with to make people argue?
    .
    You leave the beeb alone ya big bully.......one of the two British institutions that are truly world beating and world class (the other being the NHS). Of all the worlds media organisations the Beeb probably stands head and shoulders above others when it comes to highlighting major social issues

    Is the subject of this discussion the most important issue in the world.......of course not, is it a subject worthy of discussion.....well those posting in this thread think so.
    If we only ever discussed the most important issues in this world there wouldn't be much point in having a canoe forum.

    If there was a section on this forum called world poverty then I'm sure ithe plight of the poor would be discussed at length.
    Last edited by mayobren; 30th-April-2015 at 06:50 PM.
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Robin Hood's Bay,Yorkshire
    Posts
    2,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    In a world where kids routinely step on old landmines, this is the best the BBC can come up with to make people argue?

    ,................. severe ecological imbalance problems have been created in the UK over a long period of time and you do not always get to pick the solutions to them from the box marked "Sunshine and Lolly Pops".
    You're absolutely right Lloyd! I blame it all on conservationists anyway. Almost every problem now was once a solution to some previous problem - neat, plausible and wrong.

    Hanging on the outside of a pub in Richmond I think, is a damn big Mantrap. Think gin trap but so massive it would tear the leg of a elephant. Now a few of those around the place would give survivors something to complain about.

    Seriously though, I accept snares are legal and some people find it n ecessary to set them legally. However, setting them in such away or place when there public have a legal right to be sounds a little negligent.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Stone , Staffs
    Posts
    1,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    You cannot have user friendly nature there England if you insist on cultivating, and pruning every square inch for human use.
    ".
    Thats easy to say when you've half the population of the UK and Canada is nearly 40 times bigger than the UK

  27. #27
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    6,968
    Journal Entries
    18

    Default

    Well first; I like the BBC and the Canadian, and Australian equivalent.

    But I blame the population issue squarely on the heads of the Ancient Britons who failed to stop successive invasions. OK, the Angles, Jutes, Saxons, and Vikings were probably a good thing but I draw the line with the Normans. It has been all down hill since then.
    Lloyd

    I never pay attention to anything by "experts". I calculate everything myself.
    Richard Feynman.

    www.senseaboutscience.org

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    3,732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Well first; I like the BBC and the Canadian, and Australian equivalent.

    But I blame the population issue squarely on the heads of the Ancient Britons who failed to stop successive invasions. OK, the Angles, Jutes, Saxons, and Vikings were probably a good thing but I draw the line with the Normans. It has been all down hill since then.
    excellent!
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Wait wait wait... I've found a BBC thread with far more relevance to both canoeing AND access than the original one:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32488483
    -------------------------
    You! Off my planet!

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    3,732

    Default

    Off topic Ounce!
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Cumbria
    Posts
    1,315

    Default

    Just as a comparison.

    Many military firing ranges are public access. They often have bits and pieces of unexploded ordanance lying about. They errect an explicit sign when you go onto the range "Do not touch anything , it may explode and kill you.". Many of them could. I've found an undetonated trip flare up in the Pentlands before which contains half a pound of white phospherous that could seriously spoil your day.

    How does this compare to a snare?
    "I'm not getting in a boat which is DESIGNED to go upside down."

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Robin Hood's Bay,Yorkshire
    Posts
    2,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    But I blame the population issue squarely on the heads of the Ancient Britons who failed to stop successive invasions. OK, the Angles, Jutes, Saxons, and Vikings were probably a good thing but I draw the line with the Normans. It has been all down hill since then.
    Whatever have the Angles, Jutes, Saxons, and Vikings ever done for us?? Or indeed the Romans, eh???

    Well apart from sanitation................................etc.,
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

  33. #33
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    6,968
    Journal Entries
    18

    Default

    When they settled they only brought the pretty girls with them and left the rest at home. This insured a healthy population of lookers in the UK.

    Lloyd

    I never pay attention to anything by "experts". I calculate everything myself.
    Richard Feynman.

    www.senseaboutscience.org

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canterbury, Kent
    Posts
    666

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    This insured a healthy population of lookers in the UK.

    You have not taken a walk around a large shopping mall or watched Jeremy Kyle of late then in blighty.



    Rob
    Why is it good news can always wait 'til morning but bad news requires a call at silly o'clock?

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Devon ..just up from the bottom and right a bit.
    Posts
    2,302

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob-GB View Post
    You have not taken a walk around a large shopping mall or watched Jeremy Kyle of late then in blighty.



    Rob
    Don't be so harsh Rob... Some are quite hot...



    ...what was the topic of this thread...

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Robin Hood's Bay,Yorkshire
    Posts
    2,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    When they settled they only brought the pretty girls with them and left the rest at home. This insured a healthy population of lookers in the UK.

    Jeezus Lloyd, you need better glasses next time you come over here.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

  37. #37
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    6,968
    Journal Entries
    18

    Default

    Again; I blame the Normans for the ugly ones.


    Thread officially derailed. My work is done here.
    Lloyd

    I never pay attention to anything by "experts". I calculate everything myself.
    Richard Feynman.

    www.senseaboutscience.org

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Thread officially derailed. My work is done here.
    [Pulp Fiction]Mr. Lloyd, it was a pleasure watching you work[/Pulp Fiction]
    -------------------------
    You! Off my planet!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •