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Thread: Tidal lagoon power proposals

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    Default Tidal lagoon power proposals

    It looks as if the powers that be are moving a step closer to building these Lagoons, 4 in Wales, 1 in Somerset and 1 in Cumbria. What opportunities there are for us is hard to say but paddling a big lake by the sea should be interesting.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31682529

    http://www.all-energy.co.uk/Media-Ce...-Lagoon-Power/

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busines...-first-8739343

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busines...lopers-8609939
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    It would be good if they could chanel the out flow from the gereators to a whitewater course.
    Big Al.

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    and the last river been poisoned
    and the last fish been caught
    will we realise we cannot eat money.
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    I was thinking the same myself, it may be possible to have a second smaller holding area inside the main area, and delay the release of the water from that section until the main section has dropped enough to create a head of water. That way it could be positioned by the shore line, the turbines will be on the furthest point from the shore, about 2 miles away, you wouldn't want to paddle anywhere near them. The Anglers have started with their normal objections that some fish may swim into the turbines, so it will probably by cancelled.
    Last edited by cloudman; 2nd-March-2015 at 02:15 PM.
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    <rant>

    Besides the huge impact to both the scenery & environment, this is another glass elephant that we (the taxpayer) will heavily subsidise to both build & run, just like wind turbines. Besides the investment to get it going (minimum 30bn!!!), the running cost to produce electricity is higher than most other sources, even after it's been running & reduced. The numbers quoted (per MWh) are;

    - initial 168
    - reduced 92
    - nuclear 90 (Hinkley new build)

    Bear in mind that the efficiency of converting energy into electricity varies greatly and has a substantial impact on long term running costs. Most of the time when /MWh are calculated, a high efficiency is assumed that isn't always the case or when poo-pooing alternatives, a low % is used. And the nuclear numbers will come from 40year old designs (Magnox) not modern pebble bed reactors (73-85/MWh).

    Oh, and don't forget base load that current solar / PV / wind / wave can't deal with. Until the best batteries in the world are invented, there will still be a need for coal / gas / nuclear to generate base load.

    I would love to see more 'green' energy creation but am totally frustrated at the volume of wind turbines that get slapped onto every hill you can see, especially around here. They are inefficient, ugly, noisy, etc. - lagoons will have a heck of a job persuading everyone that they will deliver as expected.

    Another case of 'shove it in Cumbria, no-one will mind'........

    </rant off>
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    of course nuclear is cheaper.......until you factor in waste disposal/monitoring.
    but then the waste is safe when encased in concrete isn't it?
    maybe we should use these concrete blocks to make houses and shopping centres or better still stack them in the basement of Westminster.
    better still we could use the blocks to make WW courses.
    give me turbines, wave power, solar power, tidal power any time.( including their 'pollution' and running costs).
    actually the best way would be for govt to issue everyone with free led bulbs and save building another power station( cheaper in the long run).
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    O bugger what have I started, sorry.
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    Power is political.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Power is political.
    True, but I naively thought we could just look at the effect it would have on our paddling.

    The nearest to me is proposed to cross Colwyn bay from Rhos Point to Prestatyn that is 15 miles of coast including Rhyl will be within the Lagoon. If that happens it will become a mecca for watersports in the North West and protect these coastal towns from the battering they regularly get from the sea. It looks very ambitious to build such a huge structure so I suspect it will be scaled back or never happen at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    True, but I naively thought we could just look at the effect it would have on our paddling.
    Apologies for my rant - there could be positive effects for paddlers & waterports users and that would be great. My whinge isn't about that - it's the 'silver bullet' view that this will fix all our energy woes. Andym is quite right in saying that if the UK invested in LED bulb technology, that would make a massive positive impact on our energy usage - that's unlikely to happen so we're left looking at the alternatives. Unless 'something happens (more electricity / less usage), well probably start to see rolling blackouts (or similar) in the next 5-8 years as our politicians have sat on their thumbs too long and have delayed a 'proper' energy strategy. As we decommission the vast majority older nuclear power stations by 2023 with no new builds started, there is nothing to take on that base load (currently 18% of UK production). We can add solar, wave, wind, etc. but they can only supplement the base produced by gas / coal / nuclear, not replace and that's my whinge. Wave energy looks good on paper, could be environmentally sound and (possibly) cost effective over it's life and could provide a substantial amount of non-base load requirements (i.e. the energy required 24x7 with no interruptions or drops)

    WIKI - Baseload plant, (also baseload power plant or base load power station) is an energy station devoted to the production of base load supply. Baseload plants are the production facilities used to meet some or all of a given region's continuous energy demand, and produce energy at a constant rate, usually at a low cost relative to other production facilities available to the system.

    So as wave / solar / wind cannot be depended on to provide baseload, there are basic options;

    1 - continue to use gas / coal / nuclear in addition to renewables
    2 - over subscribe renewables to 'cover the gaps' (300-400% ?)

    As you can tell, I'm rather enthused about the whole energy debate as it's a regular topic of discussion this part of the world. Tidal generation could be a good way to supply more 'green' energy but only if it's down for economical reasons and not just for show. The UK has some serious energy challenges ahead but on the bright side, when the lights have gone out, there will be less work to do so more time to go paddling!!

    Or we can just buy electricity from the French.
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    I agree with your principals MaxiP, it's just not why I posted this subject so I will refrain from getting involved.
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    Apologies as I've taken this completely off track from what was intended.

    Mods - please can you delete my posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiP View Post
    Or we can just buy electricity from the French.
    A lot of French power is nuclear generated (77%) because they have little of their own fossil fuel (8%). They also use quite a bit of hydro (10%).

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    It is not quite as bad as suggested above, as high and low tides, the period of non production of electricity, do not occur at the same time every where. Rather there is a rolling high tide which the moon drags round the world, and its possible, although without my tide tables I can't be bothered to search on the web, that there will be no overall period when the tide is not producing electricity somewhere.

    Rhyl will be really pleased if they can walk along the new sea wall, and inspect all their turbines from so much closer. As it is, nearly all their horizon is populated by turbines.

    On the one hand, we need to do something, on the other, this may not be the best.

    Impcanoe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post

    Rhyl will be really pleased if they can walk along the new sea wall, and inspect all their turbines from so much closer. As it is, nearly all their horizon is populated by turbines.

    On the one hand, we need to do something, on the other, this may not be the best.Impcanoe
    I would think that section of the North Wales coast will welcome it with open arms, it will give a massive boost to the area. Both Rhyl and Colwyn Bay have invested a huge amount on their sea fronts but with a Lagoon in front of them it will transform the area. The cost will benefit them in many ways firstly the jobs it will create building and maintaining it, secondly the extra tourist trade it will bring to the area, it will also act as a sea defense allowing the area to be developed further and of course produce power. So when calculating the cost these other benefits need to be taken into account not just the cost per KW.

    One of the big advantages of this type of project is that the investment stays in this country, our local power station Fiddlers Ferry burns 16,000 tonnes of coal a day, all imported via Liverpool docks. Why give our money to other countries when it would be better invested at home?
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    However, giving the money to others is what has happened in the offshore wind farm business, and with our successive governments determination to stick to ever more zealous interpretations of EU guidance, no doubt, despite a new technology in which we could become first, we will probably buy from abroad, as we have with railways.

    Luckily I'm probably too old to see it completed, and say "told you so".

    It might be worth re reading the objections to Cardif Bay and a Bristol Channel barrier, before we get carried away with a "good"

    It has been suggested that equipping every one with LED lights, and building a turbine station at every water mill site, would cost less and save on the one hand or produce on the other. Not so good for canoeists however.

    Were it not that political comment was frowned upon, I might feel the need to mention that it was the miners refusal to carry out maintenance during the strike that resulted in the closure of pits local to Fiddlers Ferry

    Impcanoe

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    Tidal power is one of the more reliable sources of green energy..........unless the moon disintegrates there will always be tides. They also generate power as the tide rises not just when it falls, so it's only in periods of slack water when they are not generating. The locations proposed so far seem to have been selected on the basis of their large tidal ranges. At the end of the day nuclear energy is the only realistic way to go (in my opinion) the dangers of nuclear and the issues with waste disposal are overstated...........whatever strategy the government decide to go with for long term energy generation they need to get on with it now or we'll be facing brown outs and black outs in the very near future. As long as they don't decide to destroy more of our lanscapes with ridiculously ineffective wind turbines.
    On the LED thing, I work for a Streetlighting company and many local authorities are now converting their lighting to LED.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayobren View Post
    I work for a Streetlighting company and many local authorities are now converting their lighting to LED.
    If only we were so lucky.

    Our county council, in their wisdom....................................

    Have decided to turn every single streetlamp OFF! Between midnight and 5am
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    You can't please all of the people all of the time.

    I think tidal power is far more effective than wind turbines - as has been said the moon always works.

    I can see the opportunities for canoeists and other water users.

    But if tidal flats are being covered over then migrating waders are being deprived of valuable and irreplaceable winter feeding grounds.


    And I'd switch off all street lights after midnight Joe!

    Light and noise pollution are only just creeping onto most people's radar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    If only we were so lucky.

    Our county council, in their wisdom....................................

    Have decided to turn every single streetlamp OFF! Between midnight and 5am
    Our council has also installed led units where I live. To be honest, they're excellent, actually far brighter than the old sodium/mercury units they used for years, yet the reflectors seem to keep the glare directed where it needs to be, rather than lighting up the sky etc.

    Mind you, the installation has got nothing to do with the "environment" or "saving the planet", it's to do with the council saving money to spend on trips abroad, fancy receptions, nice cars for the executives and other fiddles.

    The same goes for switching the lights off but what happens then is; The local scumbag element ( as well as scumbags from far and wide) take full advantage of the opportunity to roam free in the dark, leading to soaring crime figures, which in turn leads to your local population installing numerous "security" lights, ( everything from motion sensitive led jobby's to 1000 watt flood lights!) which then use up a lot more power and natural resources than the street lights ever did

    Frankly, if my local council did that, I'd be looking to get rid of those responsible asap.


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    The regulations covering the preservation of the waders feeding grounds are very strong, I doubt if they would be allowed to damage them.

    As a country lad I don't see any problem with the lights going out after 12.00 as we don't have any before 12.00 either, our solution may be a bit controversial but we carry torches when it goes dark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    As a country lad I don't see any problem with the lights going out after 12.00 as we don't have any before 12.00 either, our solution may be a bit controversial but we carry torches when it goes dark.
    In the country I bet you don't have some scumbag waiting around the corner to mug you!

    My partner was mugged at knife point last year, in the dark after the switch off!

    In the country you expect there to be no light, in towns where they have been around since Victorian times you expect them to work all night, no part time!
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    In the country I bet you don't have some scumbag waiting around the corner to mug you!
    I am sorry to hear about your wife that must be very upsetting, but we have our share of scumbags too, as a percentage more houses in our village have had problems than in the nearby town. A couple of my dog walking neighbors like their big Mag-light Torches as they make a good cosh if needed, if you shine a powerful torch into someones eyes at night you have an advantage for a short time to act in some way be it flight or fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    wife
    Not married yet, seems a scary thought

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    if you shine a powerful torch into someones eyes at night you have an advantage for a short time to act in some way be it flight or fight.
    I have a ULTRAFIRE C8 CREE XM-L T6 LED 1300 LUMEN TORCH, we nick name it daylight. As you can illuminate an entire field as bright as day .

    Came plastered in stickers, "do not stare into the light, causes blindness"
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    Not married yet, seems a scary thought
    Tell me about it, 43 years and counting!!!!!!!!!
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    Looks like the first of these Lagoons in Swansea is moving a step nearer after the announcement in the budget!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-31927779
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    as a point of information nuclear power looks ok cost wise when its working, but I read recently that the current forcast for decommissioning and clearing the site of sellafield has risen by 4 billion to over 50 billion pounds!
    I have also been told by someone in the know that we can expect that to reach nearly 100 billion by the time its done.
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    I belong to the Institution of Civil Engineers (retd). Our magazine, New Civil Engineer, tends to look as things reasonable objectively, given that the members generally make money, or have jobs connected with civil engineering projects.It may be of interest to SOTP. that, in a letter, a member draws attention to the fact that have been at least 76 studies into various parts of the Severn Estuary and Bristol Channel,, and the area is better documented than almost any part of the world.

    I now paraphrase. Spring tides carry about 30 metric tonnes of sediment and neaps about 2 metric tonnes, the difference being deposited temporally on the bed. Every small structure built in the area silts up rapidly, and the rate of siltration will be so severe that the lagoon will be full long before its completed. The writer considers even the Swansea Bay is unlikely to be viable.

    We now await next weeks edition for a rebuttal.

    Impcanoe

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    I wonder why the tidal turbines can't simply be put in tideways, utilising the tide as it simply moves in and out or as it ruins up and down the coasts?

    The tide along our coast runs two or three knots or more for a considerable amount of time. They could be deep enough to be totally out of harms way from collision, or simply have a superstructure which can be seen above the surface of the sea, not unlike a buoy.

    Some of the tideways along our coast run much faster and for much longer periods of time, the Severn estuary being one.
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    There is one in Strangford Loch which seems to work well. There hs been talk of an array off Holyhead, but all they do is talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    I now paraphrase. Spring tides carry about 30 metric tonnes of sediment and neaps about 2 metric tonnes, the difference being deposited temporally on the bed. Every small structure built in the area silts up rapidly, and the rate of siltration will be so severe that the lagoon will be full long before its completed. The writer considers even the Swansea Bay is unlikely to be viable.Impcanoe
    Just on on point of interest, how would such large quantities of sediment get into the lagoon. I can understand that if you built a barrage across an estuary the sediment washed down the river would eventually silt it up, also the principle of sea erosion where the waves erode one area and due to tidal drift deposit it in another. My understanding of these lagoons is that the only inlet/outlet will be about a mile out to sea and that the cill of the inlet will have a considerable depth of water below it, so for the sediment to get in it would have to be suspended in the upper levels of water. Is it possible for the sediment to remain suspended for that long?
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    I await next weeks members letters to answer that one.

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    Quite a good report on Countryfile about the Lagoons, our friend Mark Lloyd is having his say again, what an important chap he is.

    iPlayer link:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...file-hampshire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    I belong to the Institution of Civil Engineers (retd). Our magazine, New Civil Engineer
    As a retired engineer, perhaps you should get a magazine with a modified title.

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    My title could be modified to be P.H. CEng,FICE(geriatric) if you like, but the mag became "new" when they stopped producing the old. (quite a long time ago) as it is I'm FICE(ret) if I feel the need to write to the mag

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    My title could be modified to be P.H. CEng,FICE(geriatric) if you like, but the mag became "new" when they stopped producing the old. (quite a long time ago) as it is I'm FICE(ret) if I feel the need to write to the mag
    It was New Civil Engineer when I did two years out of 3 Civ Eng at Portsmouth Poly (1986-8)., so definitely quite a long time ago!
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    It is beginning to look as if this project is going to at least produce one Lagoon.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-38571240
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    As we are updating,the tidal thingy in Norther Ireland has been decommissioned and is due to be removed, apparently because it killed seals.

    Impcanoe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    My title could be modified to be P.H. CEng,FICE(geriatric) if you like, but the mag became "new" when they stopped producing the old. (quite a long time ago) as it is I'm FICE(ret) if I feel the need to write to the mag
    Perhaps 'Old Civil Engineer' didn't have the right ring to it.

    Interesting about the Strangford Loch turbine, you would think a dam based unit could easily have some kind of restrictor to prevent large fish or mammals accessing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    As we are updating,the tidal thingy in Norther Ireland has been decommissioned and is due to be removed, apparently because it killed seals.

    Impcanoe
    I read this news item last year, they said it was just a R&D project but who knows. The design is different to the lagoons in that the turbines are in open water so are more likely to encounter seals. Would a seal try to enter into a lagoon? who knows. If they did it should be possible to deter them if necessary, a plastic Killer Whale should do the trick or maybe a canoe if they are like the Blakeney Seals.

    27 Jan 2016 news item, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35416282
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    Funnily enough, New Civil Engineer has just arrived in the post today. There are pages and pages on renewables, including the floating solar panels on the reservoir near us, and a "grid sized battery" on test. Over the next few days I'll attempt to distill the huge amount of pro civil engineering piffle and let my readers know whats going on, which includes under sea turbines in Scotland producing energy.

    Impcanoe

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    There are no major rivers which empty into the proposed lagoon but the area has seals (seen 'em) and a LOT of fairly fine grained sand .

    The mouths of both the Tawe and Neath are dredged for shipping access.



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    Likely to affect sea-trout and salmon runs. Of more concern is the proposed Bristol Channel lagoons which are mapped, but will be second or third-phase if the Swansea lagoon is deemed a success. That one will affect salmon, lamprey, and shad (but only the odd sea-trout, because we don't see many on the Usk, Wye, or Severn).
    I've posted this from a conservation point of view, rather than a fishing-for-them point of view .
    Last edited by davidh; 14th-January-2017 at 08:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidh View Post
    Likely to affect sea-trout and salmon runs. Of more concern is the proposed Bristol Channel lagoons which are mapped, but will be second or third-phase if the Swansea lagoon is deemed a success. That one will affect salmon, lamprey, and shad (but only the odd sea-trout, because we don't see many on the Usk, Wye, or Severn).
    I've posted this from a conservation point of view, rather than a fishing-for-them point of view .
    I can't comment on the effect they may have on fish migration but I would be interested in why you think they will. You only say they are likely to be affected.

    From what I can see they do not block any of the rivers, do you believe the presence of the structure will deter the fish or is it the disturbance during construction that may be a problem?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    I can't comment on the effect they may have on fish migration but I would be interested in why you think they will. You only say they are likely to be affected.

    From what I can see they do not block any of the rivers, do you believe the presence of the structure will deter the fish or is it the disturbance during construction that may be a problem?
    Disturbance during construction will certainly be a factor - if only to deter fish from entering the river and providing easy feeding for seals.
    The block is not to the rivers but to established fish pathways around the bay leading to both estuaries. Less fish to the rivers means less eggs and fry for following years. It tends to be a cumulative effect too, as we saw on the Wye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidh View Post
    Disturbance during construction will certainly be a factor - if only to deter fish from entering the river and providing easy feeding for seals.
    The block is not to the rivers but to established fish pathways around the bay leading to both estuaries. Less fish to the rivers means less eggs and fry for following years. It tends to be a cumulative effect too, as we saw on the Wye.
    Looking on the plus side they will create new environments and nature has a habit of taking advantage of new habitats, it will be interesting to see what happens. The strong instinct to return to their breading areas will I think drive them on, they will just find new pathways. The Lagoons are also likely to create new angling opportunities albeit sea fishing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    Funnily enough, New Civil Engineer has just arrived in the post today. There are pages and pages on renewables, including the floating solar panels on the reservoir near us, and a "grid sized battery" on test. Over the next few days I'll attempt to distill the huge amount of pro civil engineering piffle and let my readers know whats going on, which includes under sea turbines in Scotland producing energy.

    Impcanoe
    Looking forward to reading your summary of Whats On in the Renewable Energy field , Impcanoe

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    Er..dare I dip my toe into this potential controversial lagoon? for those interested here is the NCE article
    https://www.newcivilengineer.com/tec...ontentID=13820
    or at least the majority of the published article.

    how much public access / usage (despite the glossy publicity) survives the risk assessment will be anyone's guess, but it would be great for sailing (small stuff) - we get good wind in the Severn but the tide and waves makes it (for me) all but impossible to use)

    we do need to do something to replace the base load that is known to be going offline in the foreseeable future, yes a lagoon looks pretty reliable in theory but the obstacles are many.
    whether this is part of the solution? who knows? but these things have to be tried, yes, ok, as an engineer i know I am bias, but this is on the doorstep (relatively) and though I personally would have liked to have seen the Barrier built (Bream down to Cardiff - sadly looks to be a lost cause) this lagoon may prove to be a good technology demonstrator for building this sort of infrastructure in the Severn - no bad thing , I for one will watch with interest.
    for those with an interest in where our power comes from you can see the status of the national grid here http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sit and Relax View Post
    for those with an interest in where our power comes from you can see the status of the national grid here http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Really interesting seeing this in an easy to understand format - thanks for this
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sit and Relax;630740

    [/URL
    https://www.newcivilengineer.com/technical-excellence/alternative-energy-tidal-power/10016244.article?blocktitle=In-Depth&contentID=13820[/URL]

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Thanks for these links, Gridwatch is particularly interesting.
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    A timely reminder that I have not yet come up with NCE's bigger picture, so I'll do it in bits. A couple of basic bits first. In the context of dams, tidal lagoons, turbines etc"head" is the difference between the higher free water level, and the turbine. The greater the head, the greater the available power to run things. So dams for power supply are built high, the most power in a tidal lagoon system is when the difference between the impounded level and the sea is greatest, river turbines are normally low power. As long as there is a head differential between the two sides of the dam/ lagoon wall, power is available, but when there is no head differential, then there is no power.
    Most tidal height curves are approx sinusoidal, that is steep in the middle section (fast rise and fall) and flat at the top and bottom. In most places the tide changes direction slowly, slows to a halt, dwells, starts off in the other direction, but in some places the change is more rapid. This means that, again generally, there is a period of non production from tidal generators, simplistically, coincident with high and low water when there is no head differential available. So, as in windless days for wind turbines, there is a period of non productivity, although it is predictable. In the broader picture of the product of a series of lagoons, high tide moves round the coastline twice every day and so there is always somewhere producing sufficient head to power turbines, if they were installed. This same argument applies to subsea free standing turbines, which, in most cases, will also have two high and two low tides per day.
    So this brings us to the next problem, that of energy storage. Basically, in real amounts of "grid sized" storage, there are only two working examples of only one system of energy storage. These are the two pumped storage systems, (hydro electric), the best known one being Dinorwic in North Wales. Here electricity available in off peak periods is used to pump water from a low lake to a higher one, and in periods of demand, allowed to flow down through turbines to produce more electricity. However, any energy exchange system "looses" some energy through friction, heat, noise etc.
    So, in order to smooth out supply and demand, better forms of storage are required. Not least because nearly a quarter of our electricity comes from renewables.
    In the NCE , there are reports on two forms of storage now being trialed in the uk. The first is a "grid sized" battery system. This 6MW/10MWh installation has been working for two years. It is the size of three tennis courts, and has been powering 6,000 homes in Leighton Buzzard. Also being considered are systems of battery storage systems for domestic housing, which might enable a solar powered home to become completely off grid. The electric car firm Tesla, of Elon Musk in the States, is selling home batteries which can power a two bedroom house with solar panels for a full day. Batteries are also available for commercial uses The article notes that Tesla's intention to produce about 500,000 electric cars a year will require a significant portion of the world's current supply of lithium batteries. (and a significant amount of electricity to recharge them)
    The other new technology reported is that of cryogenics, perhaps more closely associated with sci-fy. In this process electricity is used to freeze air to -196Degrees C, producing liquid air, stored in insulated tanks at low pressure. To produce power, the air is then pumped at high pressure, heated and evaporated , producing a 700fold expansion in volue. This then powers a turbine, producing electricity. The demo unit has a capacity of 5MW/15MWh.

    Thus endeth the first chapter. More on proposals for tidal power and test schemes in my next.

    Impcanoe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    The other new technology reported is that of cryogenics, perhaps more closely associated with sci-fy. In this process electricity is used to freeze air to -196Degrees C, producing liquid air, stored in insulated tanks at low pressure. To produce power, the air is then pumped at high pressure, heated and evaporated , producing a 700fold expansion in volue. This then powers a turbine, producing electricity. The demo unit has a capacity of 5MW/15MWh.
    Impcanoe
    There is a 5MW plant planned for Manchester, it is being commissioned now and is promoted as the world biggest.

    BBC news report link. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37902773
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    This may well be the same unit...5MW in Manchester.

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    that's interesting
    It says..
    "There's the storage of the energy, and the generating of the energy. You can make use of waste cold and waste heat (Er.. these are both form of energy that is a result of energy use elsewhere and neither are waste if you have a use for them)... because you're putting both electrical and thermal energy in, the amount of electrical energy you get out, can in some cases end up being more than the electrical energy you put in (Er.. yes possibly (calculated but not taking account of processes losses) at one extreme point on the operating diagram and then only for a short term while the stored heat/cold that has been accumulated is depleted (and this of course will depend on where they have drawn the system boundary) ."
    unrealistic expectations does little service to anyone, you fundamentally can not just magic energy out of nowhere, cant be done, period.
    i would really like to see the figures on that cryogenics plant (now I am interested I will see what I can dig up).
    Me thinks that this has benefited from a liberal application of a thick coat of "green wash".
    its been a long week and I have been wrestling with power plants with problems for most of it, so I really should stop reading this thread (busman's holiday) - still looking forward to seeing the lagoon built though, should be interesting.
    Er.. i'll get my coat...

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