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Thread: Origins of the MAGNA CARTA on BBC iPlayer

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    Default Origins of the MAGNA CARTA on BBC iPlayer

    This program is available until Monday, David Starkey presents an interesting insight into the Magna Carta.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?...0Magna%20Carta
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    I saw that programme.

    There was also a bit in either the times or the telegraph too about the Magna Carta. It listed all the points on the Magna Carta that were still enshrined in modern law and almost all had been superseded by modern law.

    Access to rivers was one of those subjects which had long since been made subject to subsequent legislation and could no longer be relied on.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Perry View Post
    Access to rivers was one of those subjects which had long since been made subject to subsequent legislation and could no longer be relied on.
    Bold statement without support eh?

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...Dan-Jones.html

    and from their blogg page this :_

    The three survivors (of the 1297 Magna Carta) are a sorry sight:
    1. The English Church should be free from royal interference.
    2. The customs and liberties of the city of London and other cities, boroughs, towns and ports are to be respected.
    3. There is to be no imprisonment of a freeman without trial at the hands of his peers and there is to be no sale of justice.
    As a bulwark of the English constitution, it does not add up to much.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

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    It's good to see that the legislation site details those new statutes which repealed each of the Magna Carta provisions but unfortunately they do not provide the text of these statutes, presumably because they are a bit historic (1887)

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    My understand is that the Magna Carta and subsequent Acts of Parliament are used to show that a PRN existed in that particular period and that a PRN remains in existence until removed by an Act of Parliament. The current argument being that we believe no such laws have been enacted.

    If the people had always had the free and uncontested use of the rivers as the historical evidence shows there would be no need to enact laws confirming it.

    The use of the highways was established by common use, not an Act of Parliament, all subsequent laws have been to control that use not grant it.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    And I thought the Queen was the head of the English church. I guess the reformation is just in my imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lugg Birds View Post
    And I thought the Queen was the head of the English church. I guess the reformation is just in my imagination.
    That was Henry VIII's doing in 1531 and has remained ever-since.

    This is a good example of how the laws in the Magna Carta have been eroded over time by new laws, the question is has that happened to navigation or not?
    Last edited by cloudman; 28th-January-2015 at 04:10 PM.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Magna Carta (sealed under duress in 1215 and issued voluntarily ever since) was affirmation of the laws that already existed rather than the creation of new laws. Parliament has the right to modify those laws in the light of changing circumstances and is then accountable to the electorate for those decisions when they stand for re-election. Its for those who believe these ancient laws have changed to show how and when this happened. They can't which is why they haven't!
    Keith

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    You can check which ones have been repealed for yourselves here :- the governmet has a list:-
    legislation.gov.uk

    or here:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Ed.../25/9/contents

    If the links don't work simply search for the Magna Carta in the legislation.gov.uk site. It appears to be only the one link on their website.
    Last edited by David Perry; 28th-January-2015 at 08:15 PM.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

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    This programme (David Starkey's Magna Carta) is repeated tonight on BBC2 at 11.20p.m. Don't hold your breath waiting for Clause 33 though - it gets one mention as Fishwears on the Medway lasting all of 3 seconds.
    Keith

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    Having just done a search on Clause 33 I found this document, clause 33 is discussed on page 2 last paragraph.

    http://magnacarta800th.com/wp-conten...ul-Lecture.pdf
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Having just done a search on Clause 33 I found this document, clause 33 is discussed on page 2 last paragraph.

    http://magnacarta800th.com/wp-conten...ul-Lecture.pdf
    It's a good document and Nigel Saul's verdict that
    "Actually, clause 33 was to be of enormous significance in the history of navigation in this country, because it established the principle of free passage along England’s rivers,"
    is totally in line with Caffyns academic research.

    Further academic confirmation comes from the Magna Carta Project academic commentary on Clause 33 (at the end of section (b)) which clarifies that this applied to all rivers -
    “Londoners came to believe that this could only be achieved if they had the control of the whole of the Thames. The Charter did not make this sweeping concession, but repeated John’s prohibition, without a penalty clause, and extended it to all English rivers.”
    We must stress that Magna Carta was a declaration of existing rights rather than a creation of new ones so the fact that all wears no longer have to be pulled down does not weaken our case. Clause 33 stood witness to public navigation rights for 750 years. Following the removal of clause 33 in 1969 the witness is now dead but the witness statements live on!

    RAFA's research had already revealed these (and more). We'll share more information and our plans for 2015 with you in a few days but there is no doubt that 2015 and the focus on Magna Carta represents a major opportunity to draw attention to the continued existence of public navigation rights on all rivers.
    Keith

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    According to the the legislationgov.UK own website it states that section 33 & 34 were repealed by the Statute Law Revision Act of 1863 sec125. Unfortunately this isn't on their website.

    Here's the link...http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Ed...on/XXXIIIXXXIV.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

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    I am glad you agree with my thoughts that this would be a useful document to us. Mr Saul is a leading authority on the subject and recognised as such by him being asked to lecture to the All Party Parliamentary Group on the Constitution. I am assuming he is the Mr Saul I thought he was.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Saul
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Perry View Post
    According to the the legislationgov.UK own website it states that section 33 & 34 were repealed by the Statute Law Revision Act of 1863 sec125. Unfortunately this isn't on their website.

    Here's the link...http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Ed...on/XXXIIIXXXIV.
    I think this is the statute that repealed Clause 33

    This can't repeal a public right of navigation that wasn't created by Magna Carta. It just repeals the statute requiring the removal of all kiddells, and fishgarthes which doesn't feature very highly on my list of priorities.

    The witness is dead but the witness statements live on! Magna Carta bears witness to a public right of navigation on all rivers (subject to practicality). No one can show how parliament extinguished that right so it still exists.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    I am assuming he is the Mr Saul I thought he was.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Saul
    He is

    https://www.royalholloway.ac.uk/abou...saulnigel.aspx
    Keith

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    David, there may be some difference in the clause numbers between the 1297 edition used on the legislation.uk site and the 1215 edition often quoted and translated on the British Museum website. That the legislation offering does not provide the original wording is quite unhelpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    David, there may be some difference in the clause numbers between the 1297 edition used on the legislation.uk site and the 1215 edition often quoted and translated on the British Museum website. That the legislation offering does not provide the original wording is quite unhelpful.
    Clause 33 is clause 23 in all post 1215 versions of Magna Carta. The words are there if you click on each of the headings at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1969/52/contents
    e.g click on "Introductory Text" and you get http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...2/introduction

    Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1969

    1969 CHAPTER 52

    An Act to promote the reform of the statute law by the repeal, in accordance with recommendations of the Law Commission, of certain enactments which (except in so far as their effect is preserved) are no longer of practical utility, and by making other provision in connection with the repeal of those enactments.
    [22nd October 1969]
    Keith

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    Aren't you lot bored to the back teeth yet, with all this?

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    I'm not, I even thought of a new legal angle today; quite interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    Aren't you lot bored to the back teeth yet, with all this?
    I take it you won't be joining in on the Magna Carta birthday parties this year then.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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