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Thread: NW England Access Seminar

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    Default NW England Access Seminar

    After a two year break I am organising another access Seminar at the Burrs on Sunday 18th January.
    This is open to everyone interested in canoe access to rivers and will include
    Canoe England officers to talk about the new policy on access
    The reorganisation of the waterways advisory service
    Reports on rivers in the region
    Canoe Trails
    Where did you paddle in 2014 survey
    What should CE and we be doing
    River twins quiz.

    A free meeting with free refreshments


    Meet for tea and coffee at 9.30, start at 9.45 and
    finish at 12.30.

    You could paddle at the site afterwards
    Please contact me if you wish to come, and pass
    this invitation to your friends.

    chcleaver@ntlworld.com
    Chris Cleaver
    NW Region Waterways Advisor

    Burrs Activity Centre

    Woodhill Road
    Bury
    Lancashire
    BL8 1DA

    http://www.burrs.org.uk/location.htm

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    Default Personal report on the meeting

    This meeting was attended by myself and 25272527, we were made welcome and it was a well attended meeting.

    Contrary to the note above Richard Atkinson said there was no new policy on access, the 2012 policy remains. The spat with Fish Legal is still ongoing, despite FL going for max publicity (Presumably to justify their existence) EC have decided to deal with them out of the press as advised by their lawyers. nothing to report as yet.

    There was a discussion about Canoe England's stance on extended paddling time in rapid play areas in contrast to the act of navigation only requiring the need to pass through, it was deemed reasonable to liaise with other river users in these areas and try to reach a working relationship, current attempts to do this in particular at Halton Rapids on the Lune have not proved very successfu,l but at least it was tried.

    There are facilities now open at Halton Rapids (CE members only), as a result of lots of good work by Pat Green despite being personally harassed by Fish Legal. http://www.canoe-england-northwest.o...t-halton-mill/

    It was announced that "The Canoe Foundation" was to be revitalized and hinted that the foundation may become more involved with access issues. http://www.canoefoundation.org.uk/cf/

    The government are to roll out their management policy on river catchment areas known as CaBA, this is a system of managing our rivers via voluntary charitable organisations locally. There are opportunities for clubs or individuals to become involved with this and it is in our interest to get involved or they will be dominated by Angling and Wildlife groups. http://www.catchmentbasedapproach.org/

    Finally, EC are trying to produce more Canoe Trails and would welcome information from anyone wishing to produce one, they have a template to follow so as to maintain consistency and this can be obtained from richard.atkinson@britishcanoeing.org.uk . I am assuming they would accept info from none members but did not ask? Samples of what is required here, http://gocanoeing.org.uk/go/index.cf...-to-do/trails/
    Last edited by cloudman; 19th-January-2015 at 11:58 AM.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Very good review from Cloudman that I can add little to. Peter R from this forum was also there. There was some expression of frustration that CE did not seem to be taking the national access debate forward energetically and did not keep members abreast of positive access work, especially in response to assaults from fish Legal! I wonder if CE will respond to what was a clear demand for more debate and action on the broad principle of access. There is a lot of good work going on locally that is being driven by local volunteers and as Cloudman says paddlers really do need to be at the table of the various catchment based management forums that are emerging across the country otherwise our voice and our needs will be ignored.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Finally, EC are trying to produce more Canoe Trails and would welcome information from anyone wishing to produce one, they have a template to follow so as to maintain consistency and this can be obtained from richard.atkinson@britishcanoeing.org.uk . I am assuming they would accept info from none members but did not ask? Samples of what is required here, http://gocanoeing.org.uk/go/index.cf...-to-do/trails/
    I am a little wary of the canoe trails. I understand they are only accepted where there is a 'proven' right of access and as such might be giving the wrong or mixed message to the general public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I am a little wary of the canoe trails. I understand they are only accepted where there is a 'proven' right of access and as such might be giving the wrong or mixed message to the general public.
    You are correct, in the general requirements list No2 is "Ensure that the trail has certainty of access to and along the waterway" I can see no way of avoiding this due to the liability laid onto the publisher of the trail be that CE or a private individual. The thought behind it is that the more people using the water in anyway is good for the access cause, the trails will appeal more to newcomers than experienced paddlers so hopefully making it easier for people to get into the sport. We can then guide them to explore other waterways.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I am a little wary of the canoe trails. I understand they are only accepted where there is a 'proven' right of access and as such might be giving the wrong or mixed message to the general public.
    The British Canoeing position statement on access lays out a fairly clear understanding of the line that applies to all British Canoeing staff:

    [British Canoeing] fundamentally believes in the principle for access to and along unregulated non-tidal waters and does not subscribe to the present assumption by some for these waters to be deemed private.
    That's all well and good, but that still leaves a major issue.... in that we need access ONTO and egress FROM any river we choose to navigate... and if we're going to portage any hazards (e.g. weirs) we may need a route around... and if a "duty of care" suggests any need for infrastructure improvements (even a simple sign identifying a hazard and indicating an inspection / portage option)... land ownership / rights perhaps start becoming more relevant.

    What then further complicates matters in some situations is the question of whether to recommend a route which might become a young family's first experience of canoeing... where we (any of us) might also want to factor in a likelihood of being challenged / hassled: a potentially off-putting experience for a newbie!

    I don't speak for BC on this matter, or claim to have cure-all solution... but I have heard all of these arguments raised at one time or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    That's all well and good, but that still leaves a major issue.... in that we need access ONTO and egress FROM any river we choose to navigate...
    We probably have more public access points than we realise, if an access point has been used without permission being asked or granted for 20 years then we should be formally claiming it as a public right of way. This should be a priority so as not to lose any by default, it would not be an onerous task to at least identify potential sites and put them on a national register. The Ramblers do this all the time, each area takes responsibility for their own patch and checks each path and stile every year, why not ask the same of the canoe clubs, the numbers to be checked would be a fraction of the footpaths. It would then take some commitment to claim these rights of way but this could be prioritised with the most vulnerable tackled first. I have in the past checked paths for the Ramblers they allocate you a small area and ask you to check the paths and report any problems in that area, having done that you can request another area to check and so on until you have had enough. It's not rocket science but it does need an organisation to coordinate it, CE could do it if they wanted to?
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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    Hi, Yes I was there too - sorry Cloudman we haven't met so didn't know who you were. Perhaps we need SotP name lapel badges on these occasions! I was a little disappointed that British Canoeing were not being more pro-active on both the campaigning and legal challenge front, although it appears that more is going on in the background than they publicise. I think the whole access issue needs a big drive at a national level.
    Peter

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    I have just received this copy of the Canoe Trail Guide lines for anyone who is interested :-


    Briefing Note
    What do you need to know to write a canoe trail?

    There is something quite magical about being out on the water in your canoe ... whether you are on flat water, white water, lake or the sea canoeing the pleasures and fun are never ending.
    British Canoeing (formally known as Canoe England) want to encourage everyone to enjoy the water environment. Whether it’s a family looking for something to do during the holiday period, or individual just wanting to relax after a long week at work, we want them to know WHERE to experience canoeing safely and responsibly.
    British Canoeing has written this briefing note so that anyone can write a suitable trail to the required standard and consistency for British Canoeing to publish and promote to interested paddlers.

    The general requirements are as follows:

    1. Follow the correct template – this will ensure that the trail is written in a consistent manner with the correct information. Please email Richard Atkinson richard.atkinson@britishcanoeing.org.uk for the template stating which waterway/area you are intending to write a trail about. This will ensure that there isn't already work in progress on your intended trail.
    2. Ensure that the trail has certainty of access to and along the waterway. This may involve a bit of homework! Is it managed by a navigation authority, or does a Navigation Act exist?
    3. Can you access the water from a public right of way and can you leave your vehicle in a public car park? Car parks need to be always accessible. Do they have a height restrictor which would make access difficult for vans carrying canoes/kayaks?
    4. Does the waterway require a licence from the navigation authority who is responsible for managing it?
    5. It is essential that you write a trail so that anyone can understand it –non canoeist to a seasoned professional. Think about how you describe the start and finish point. Remember some paddlers may not know the location as well as you. Use an address and post code. Be specific.
    6. Even though there will be generic safety information on every canoe trail it is important that you ensure you include specific safety information that may be unique to that trail. Is there a low bridge that paddlers need to be aware of? Tidal information is important.
    7. Tunnels – tunnels can be daunting to some paddlers so it is essential that you include each one in your trail and how you should pass through them. Are they one way, two way and how do you deal with other boats?
    8. How easy is it to paddle the trail? Easy, moderate or difficult? Definitions can be found on the CE website at the following http://www.gocanoeing.org.uk/go/inde...-to-do/trails/
    9. River Level Changes – many river levels rise and fall quickly so this information will ensure paddlers will are aware of the nature of any river.
    10. Environmental considerations – is the trail entering areas which are particularly environmentally sensitive? Does it have a local, national or international designation such as a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI)?
    11. Take suitable photographs to help describe the trail. Photos of wildlife, historical buildings and access points may all be useful and interesting. Please label each photograph so paddlers know what it relates too.
    12. Describe things that are interesting to do and see – make the description interesting!
    13. Can you make the trail a circular route? Start and finish at the same point or access points at various places along the route.
    14. When writing trails, please consider the user who may well never have been paddling before. Make it ‘fool’ proof eg description at the start ..’paddle left along the canal’
    15. Portage points – not every portage point needs describing but if it is an unusual portage or further safety information is required, please include this in the trail description.
    16. For further assistance of how to write a canoe trail, please look at examples on the Canoe England or Go Canoeing website http://www.gocanoeing.org.uk/go/inde...-to-do/trails/ or http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/our-...ces-to-paddle/
    17. Please submit ALL new canoe trails to Richard.

    END
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter R View Post
    Hi, Yes I was there too - sorry Cloudman we haven't met so didn't know who you were. Perhaps we need SotP name lapel badges on these occasions!
    Likewise Peter, we could always buy the official SOTP lapel badges, £5 each!!
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    is this not politics?
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    The northwest rivers are just about recovering after years of heavy industry. Salmon have started using the ribble as a spawning ground returning there after about 20yrs in the ocean. Canoes and Kayaks destroy fish eggs that are laid in these rivers. The argument that people want to play in boats destroying the natural world seems quite shallow. As a canoeist there are many well used better canoeing rivers than the Ribble ,Calder and Hodder, the north west rivers arent especially good white water rivers lets leave them to nature, canoe the rivers we are allowed and stop intruding on nature. The levels in the northwest rivers are so low in summer when the fish are spawning, that the masses descending upon the river to canoe or kayak would destroy eggs. i have paddled these rivers in winter but summer would be tantamount to destroying nature. Theres also the problem off ww2 grenades in the Ribble . Why make a song and dance about access to rivers not really anygood to the ww enthusiast its only going to encourage summer time novice paddlers ruining salmon habitat?
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    is this not politics?

    Is what not politics?
    Mike

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    just me being pedantic...
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    Canoes and Kayaks destroy fish eggs that are laid in these rivers.
    How ?

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    River paddlers should be aware of fish spawning; in particular what it is, where and when it happens and how we can avoid interfering with it. Female fish lay their eggs and male fish fertilise those eggs in the gravel beds of rivers throughout Scotland. Fish seek out gravel river beds for spawning, so this is not an issue in muddy rivers. The reason for this is that the eggs rest in the gaps between the pieces of gravel and stay there until the young fish hatch. The movement of water over the gravel provides them with the necessary flow of oxygen to help them through the early stages of their life cycle.

    Salmon and sea trout generally spawn between the months of October to early January in both the main river and in the tributaries of almost all Scottish rivers, although earlier and later instances are sometimes reported.

    Disturbance of spawning beds and young salmon in their various stages of freshwater life is an offence under Section 23 (2) of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003. During this time contact with gravel river beds where spawning may be taking place should be avoided. When paddling in the autumn and early winter you should be particularly on the look out for gravel river beds, especially when you are getting in or out of your boat. You can avoid causing any problems in the spawning season by:

    • Not standing in the water when there is a gravel river bed;
    • Being aware of the increased risk of making contact with the gravel river bed in times of low water;
    • Avoiding contact between your paddle and the gravel river bed, especially when getting in and out of your boat;
    • Avoiding contact with your boat and the gravel river bed, especially by not dipping the stern or cartwheeling when there is insufficient depth of water;
    • The use of a pole to propel an open canoe should be done with caution at this time of year; reverting to a paddle on sections of river with a gravel bed;
    • Following any local guidance in terms of preferred places to launch or climb out;


    Remembering the sensitive time of year for fish spawning.
    All this and more at: http://canoescotland.org/where-go/pr....wDQHujAe.dpuf

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    Plus the fact that no one has mentioned the northwest rivers are rubbish for canoes and kayaks..id do a blog but id rather poke my eye out with a rustyspoon than have to do any northwest river by canoe. I still really dont understand what they want access to.eg which rivers,
    where exactly are these canoeing sections.i need to know? cos i cant for the life of me think where these problems are,or decent paddling stretches.
    Get yourselves down to wales for white water and scotland for flatwater you really are spoilt for choice any one who lives in northwest just wants a local paddle plenty of canals leeds to liverpool or the lancaster canal much better paddles than the rivers. Also miles of coastline.lake district half hour away,morecambe bay, Even the bottom end of the ribble say tickle trout to sea no problems there plus you may get to see a seal chasing salmon if your lucky. i think a dolphin got spotted once.But lets not spoil the Nature we have for the sake of our Canoes. Walk the Ribble way its only about 70 odd mile source to sea and have a look for yourselves. I love this river and believe man made changes will always be for the worst on it.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    If they manage to get a canoe trail going where exactly would it be?
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    Plus the fact that no one has mentioned the northwest rivers are rubbish for canoes and kayaks.
    I don't know much about the Ribble but it seems to be quite a long river and there must be plenty of stretches where canoeing would be good.

    The 'northwest' is rather an undefined term but, for me, it would include some excellent canoeing rivers:

    Eden
    Lune
    Kent
    Greta
    Crake
    Rathay

    I don't see there is any need for the locals to head off to Wales and Scotland to go canoeing

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    The point here isn't about paddling when rivers are too low and paddler's might damage the ecology/environment. I'd hope that paddlers are responsible enough to make that decision, and wouldn't want to be there when the levels aren't suitable. The point here is that paddlers want recognition that we have legal access to paddle along ALL the rivers themselves, using legal access points.

    There are some wonderful rivers for paddling in the Northwest, without causing any disturbance to anything or anyone, as long as you're responsible.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    If they manage to get a canoe trail going where exactly would it be?
    The invitation to produce a canoe trail is for the whole of England it is not limited to the North West, Richard Atkinson is the national officer.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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    Where exactly are these issues people are moaning about?
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Who has been refused access?
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    Where exactly are these issues people are moaning about?
    All over the country

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    seems to me its people moaning for no reason other than they want their canoeing trips spoon fed to them in the way of canoe trails and sign posts.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    name one ?
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Wye
    Usk
    Onion
    Eden
    Tywi
    Eden
    Tyne
    Avon

    just a few off the top of my head

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    im not gonna pretend i know these rivers cos theyre not what i call northwest. The tyne is nr newcastle its canoeable i cant see all the residents of newcastle coming out in droves to shoo away canoeists......
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    the wye has been paddled in its entirety on a thread on this forum
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    seems to me its people moaning for no reason other than they want their canoeing trips spoon fed to them in the way of canoe trails and sign posts.
    Correct they do, someone new to canoeing needs to know what they are going to face on the trip, can they cope with the water conditions etc? Once they have gained a bit of experience they can make their own decisions and learn to access other sources of information for the info they need. There are footpaths all over the country but people still buy loads of books with suggested routes because they don't have the confidence to work one out for themselves, like it or not that's the way it is and if it boosts the number of people taking up the sport it is worth doing.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    Who has been refused access?
    Mate, have a read up on the access issues in both that section of the Forum, and on http://www.riveraccessforall.co.uk/. This NW area meeting is really just a regional part of the bigger campaign.

    Most of us just get on and paddle, responsibly. However, there have been a number of issues in different parts of the country, and some people believe we don't have the right to be there. Very occasionally this has led to confrontations. Its all explained on River Access for All, and through the various threads in the Access sub-forum.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    No ones ever said anything to me personally as i get older maybe they will.. I can imagine why a farmer may get mad if say an organised group, were someone was making money out of "his" rapids and they were hanging around allday would be a problem. Anywhere else id just laugh at him tell him to grow up and carry on.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    "Anywhere else id just laugh at him tell him to grow up and carry on."

    I'm sure that lots of people on SOTP are sufficiently assertive to resist the various challenges that arise from landowners and fishermen, and may just laugh at a challenge and tell the perpetrator to grow up.

    I'm also sure that the ecosystem of some rivers, and not just in the NW, may benefit from not being paddled at some times, some conditions or at some locations.

    The NW Access Forum, amongst other things that it discussed, was about something far more fundamental. some people were talking about working towards establishing an acknowledged right of access to all rivers.

    If that right of access can be established then we can be in a position to discuss and agree limitations on paddling certain locations for ecological reasons based on scientific evidence.

    If that right of access can be established then we can successful promote paddling to the public at large and people will not need to be assertive access initiates through SOTP to be able to use rivers with confidence. They would be able to use rivers exactly like they can use public footpaths and other rights of way, see the signs from the road indicating where they can go and undertake their journey with a reasonable degree of confidence that they can complete their journey.

    Many people on SOTP will have established where they can paddle for their own personal needs. What about those who haven't and the general public who might think that it would be a nice idea to get a canoe and take the family for a day on a river? That's what working towards an accepted right of access to all rivers is about.
    Mike

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    Waterways and Environment Charter
    Principles and proposals for Government Action on access to and along inland waters for canoeists and other interested parties.

    The Charter calls on political parties to develop an integrated package of measures that will further secure and enhance sustainable public use of the waterways.
    The canoe is a traditional craft used throughout the world for exploring wilderness areas and quietly observing wildlife and flora. It causes no erosion, noise or pollution, and leaves no trace of its passing. Canoeing at appropriate water levels is an environmentally benign activity and causes no damage to fish stocks How is encouraging the masses not going to produce litter.?
    How can masses of canoeists make no noise?
    Why are scottish salmon affected but english salmon are fine?

    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    Waterways and Environment Charter
    Principles and proposals for Government Action on access to and along inland waters for canoeists and other interested parties.

    The Charter calls on political parties to develop an integrated package of measures that will further secure and enhance sustainable public use of the waterways.
    The canoe is a traditional craft used throughout the world for exploring wilderness areas and quietly observing wildlife and flora. It causes no erosion, noise or pollution, and leaves no trace of its passing. Canoeing at appropriate water levels is an environmentally benign activity and causes no damage to fish stocks How is encouraging the masses not going to produce litter.?
    How can masses of canoeists make no noise?
    Why are scottish salmon affected but english salmon are fine?

    Are you saying it is OK for you to enjoy the rivers but no one else?
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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    I cant remember ever coming out with such a selfish statement. Im a big believer in freedoms, I just dont see why you would want to encourage every tom, dick and harry onto our rivers dropping litter everywhere. And spoiling the countryside like theyve done on every mountain theyve had access too.

    I believe if Alfred Wainright knew of the litter dropping that would follow on every path he wrote about he would not have published anything....
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    I do my canoeing in the lakes and scotland, flat water paddling mainly i did the Ribble following reading a blogg and realised that
    A. the water levels where way to shallow.
    B. never do it again and advise others the same.
    c. dont blogg nice places cos people go there and drop litter.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    I cant remember ever coming out with such a selfish statement. Im a big believer in freedoms, I just dont see why you would want to encourage every tom, dick and harry onto our rivers dropping litter everywhere. And spoiling the countryside like theyve done on every mountain theyve had access too.

    I believe if Alfred Wainright knew of the litter dropping that would follow on every path he wrote about he would not have published anything....
    The picture you are painting is far too pessimistic, I have spent a lifetime walking and climbing and only find a small amount of litter (I always pick it up), there is erosion on the paths but these are being repaired. The value to peoples health and well-being from visiting the countryside far outweighs the small problems caused, education of how to behave in the countryside is the answer not exclusion from it.

    You are wrong about Albert Wainwright he dedicated a large portion of his life enabling people to visit the mountains, I have never heard of him saying he regretted writing the guides.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    I never said A.W. said that. I meant if he were alive now and had to look at the Litter problems created....
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    I never said A.W. said that. I meant if he were alive now and had to look at the Litter problems created....
    His guides were published between 1955 & 1966 and he went on to publish his large format books after that, he planned the Coast to Coast trail in 1972 and died in 1991, so had plenty of time to see the effects of his good work. There is not a litter problem on the hills and most of the litter in the rivers is blow in from the towns, roads and farms, of course there are a few paddlers being washed down below weirs but they are normally picked up.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    And he was an Audley lad like me.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    I do my canoeing in the lakes and scotland, flat water paddling mainly i did the Ribble following reading a blogg and realised that
    A. the water levels where way to shallow.
    B. never do it again and advise others the same.
    c. dont blogg nice places cos people go there and drop litter.
    Sorry mate, but "c" is a ridiculous statement as evidence for keeping people off rivers, and is almost insulting to this community.

    I have paddled with many, many canoeists, and have yet to meet any who would drop litter. However, a LARGE proportion of them regularly pick up litter that others have dropped, and take it away with them. Doesn't meant there aren't any paddlers who drop litter, but I would be utterly amazed if it was more than the tiny minority.

    Most of the litter I see on rivers comes from either the towns/villages/bridges/carparks that the river flows past, or, I'm afraid, from fishermen. I do my best to remove a bit of it, if only I could get it all.

    A.W. could well have been concerned with the erosion his books have "caused", but I don't see much litter beyond the car parks of the Lakes/Dales/Wales. I will admit I have even considered that my blogs and Paddle Points entries could mean the places I love get more people, when one of the joys is how quiet they are. But we cause no erosion when we pass, as long as the launch points are sensibly chosen, and I am comfortable with trying to inspire more people to find and learn to appreciate the wonderful places we paddle. By appreciating them through paddling, I truly believe people will be MORE protective of them, and MORE likely to help with litter collection, environmental projects etc.

    I totally agree that many of the rivers will have a level at which they should not be paddled at because the water is too low. Education is the key here, not restriction of access. As you say, what's the fun in paddling too low a river any way.

    Sorry, bit off topic, but couldn't let that one pass!

    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

    Paddle Points - where to paddle

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    Nicely put Mal

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    C is my personal preference. i should have put an I at the beginning of the sentence.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Perhaps im being selfish not blogging, I dont want extra people at "My" quiet spots..
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    Perhaps im being selfish not blogging, I dont want extra people at "My" quiet spots..
    In all fairness and not taking anything away from your blogging i doubt it'll make much difference in terms of the amount of people paddling.

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    I cant write well Enough to capture things properly. A well written blogg is inspirational. I really do feel Canoe trails all advertised and sign posted will attract the wrong crowd.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    This has gone a bit off topic" "Northwest rivers". different ball game to most places as the rivers are narrow, shallow and surrounded by Manchester Liverpool leeds preston and the east lancs Mill towns. They are just about recovering. Ive noticed that no one from the northwest actually cares about access, they would rather travel to a decent paddle.
    Mal I wasnt being disrespectful to anyone personally over the litter issue, be it forum members or canoeists in general. a tiny minority of litter droppers from all these towns and citys is a lot of litter.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    im out
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Sorry forgot to mention Bolton .Blackburn Bury Burnley Brierfield rossendale Nelson Colne, Rochdales northwest too i think. To say encouraging all these people to the few shallow rivers here in the northwest along signposted routes would not have any enviromental impact is naive at best.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    Sorry forgot to mention Bolton .Blackburn Bury Burnley Brierfield rossendale Nelson Colne, Rochdales northwest too i think. To say encouraging all these people to the few shallow rivers here in the northwest along signposted routes would not have any enviromental impact is naive at best.
    If you take the trouble to read the guidelines at #9 you will see that small rivers will not meet the criteria for a canoe trail, it is only designated navigation's that would qualify, either River Navigation's or Canals, so none of these rivers are likely to qualify. Paddlers do not cause a litter problem.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    As a NW based paddler of quite a number of years I can say that I count on less than two hands the number of times I have seen another paddler on the rivers of the Ribble Valley...! The exception been the R.Irwell.

    Yes folks do travel to paddle elsewhere, but this is generally in response to water levels elsewhere been better and also the interest of the venues been better; the likes of the Calder and Ribble are interesting as once in a blue moon venues and useful for only a quick outing if short of time... Doesn't help either that the Ribble is probably the most contested river in England regards access.

    As a professional user of rivers, lakes and mountains I see very little litter in my 'normal' work areas. Farming and fishing are greater sources of litter than your average group of paddle or walking boot wielding types. The worst areas are within urban conurbations and there peripheries..!

    As an aside Scotland is not just a flat-water venue either.. It has some of the best WW rivers in the UK. North Wales is titchy in comparison to what Scotland offers. It would be nice to see your first blog with photo's of your next visit to a river or loch though. May we all continue to enjoy the variety of the UK landscapes in whatever mode of transport we prefer.

    Fetching my coat now...

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    Yes folks do travel to paddle elsewhere, but this is generally in response to water levels elsewhere been better and also the interest of the venues been better; the likes of the Calder and Ribble are interesting as once in a blue moon venues and useful for only a quick outing if short of time... Doesn't help either that the Ribble is probably the most contested river in England regards access.

    THATS MY POINT WHY THE SONG AND DANCE ABOUT NORTHWEST RIVERS.
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    THATS MY POINT WHY THE SONG AND DANCE ABOUT NORTHWEST RIVERS.
    To be fair it is only you who is singing and dancing about north west rivers, the canoe trails info was for the whole of England not just the north west.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    this thread is indeed titled northwest access
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmoir View Post
    this thread is indeed titled northwest access
    Correct, but no one else is singing or dancing.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    ILL just agree with everyone else on every issue in future join the crowd...
    Sorry for any offence caused trying to stop the northwests rivers getting another ecoligical hammering.
    I wouldnt have even bothered to read this thread if it didnt say NW. my neck of the woods...
    Venkys out of BRFC

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    don't forget your coat.

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    Venkys out of BRFC

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    Madmoir

    The title is NW England access seminar: a seminar held in the NW about access is how I read it - although I see you could read it as a seminar about NW access.

    I'm only interested the way this discussion has developed because I visit my mother in Accrington every few months and often wonder if I should have brought a canoe with me. I rarely see blogs about the NW rivers apart from occasionally the Ribble. Canoe trails would only be set up where there is a navigation and the access was good, and then would be level dependant. If all the NW rivers are shallow anyway this would count them out, but from limited looking over bridges I'd think there are certainly some sections worth paddling
    I think saying that we should avoid the rivers because they are recovering is a strange thing to say. We (all river users) obviously should take care but canoes used responsibly do no damage.
    As far as confrontations go, I have had one: A most unpleasant episode. It wasn't in the north west, but in Wales, but I know it could happen anywhere.

    Some time I will put an ad in the meetings section for a paddle in the North West. If you won't guide me, then I'm sure I'll find someone who will.

    Sam

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