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Thread: Welsh Dee access

  1. #1

    Default Welsh Dee access

    WELSH RIVER DEE - Improved AccessView this email in your browser

    PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT (1st September 2014)

    Welsh Dee Partnership is pleased to announce improved access to 10 miles of the River Dee for canoeists and kayakers. The landmark agreement negotiated will mean access for paddlers from Glyndyfrdwy to Llangollen most Wednesdays and Saturdays outside of the salmon fishing and spawning season. The timed release of paddlers from Glyndyfrdwy will mean both canoeists/kayakers and anglers can enjoy their sport without conflicting interest. It will also permit training of canoeists to take place at designated places on the river.The Chairman of Welsh Dee Partnership, Huw Evans said:“I am delighted that the access has been finalised. This will enable canoeists and fishermen to enjoy the river without conflict.”Notes for EditorsWelsh Dee Partnership was formed in 2010 to look for a sensible solution to canoeists and anglers sharing the river so that both could enjoy this unique river. Members of the partnership include:

    BOPA (British Outdoor Professionals Association)Coed Y Glyn Log CabinsCorwen and District Angling ClubGet Wet The Adventure CompanyLlangollen Maelor AnglingLlangollen OutdoorsMidland FlyfishersNomad CanoesProAdventureSafe and Sound Outdoors

    Funding has been provided by the fishing clubs, Natural Resources Wales Splash Fund, Cadwyn Clwyd Limited and Denbighshire County Council to provide a website, notice boards, webcams and gauges and the temporary appointment of a River Access Co-ordinator.Two river height gauges and webcams have been installed - one at Coed-Y-Glyn (Glyndyfrdwy) and the other at Mile End Mill, Llangollen.New Access Summary for Glydyfrdwy20th*October to 31st*MarchAll days of the week available if the water level is shown to be*at least 3ft(High Water) on the Coed Y Glyn gauge at 8:00am. Launching between 10am and 12.30pm.*This is*in order to protect the spawning grounds, as the River Dee is an ‘at-risk’ river as far as salmon stocks are concerned.1st*April to 30th*AugustWednesdays and Saturdays only – no water level restriction. Launching between 10am and 12.30pm.31st*August to 19th*OctoberPaddling only permitted when the water level is shown to be*at least* 3ft*on the gauge at 8:00am. Launching between 10am and 12.30pm.*This is*in order to ensure that minimum disruption occurs to the salmon fishermen during this period.Existing Access Arrangements from Horseshoe FallsThis new arrangement is in addition to an earlier agreement for canoeists to launch from Horseshoe Falls to Llangollen Town Weir any day of the week after 10am throughout the year, provided they vacate the water by 3.00pm.*Welsh Dee Partnership website*www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk*provides all the details of the Partnership including access to information on river heights and forthcoming events.*For more information, please contact Tony Gaskin on*07920 801343*or email at*info@welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk

    *Copyright © 2014 Welsh Dee Partnership Ltd, All rights reserved.*On my notification list*Our mailing address is:*Welsh Dee Partnership LtdThe Malthouse Business CentreLlangollen,*Denbighshire*LL20 8HSUnited KingdomAdd us to your address bookunsubscribe from this list****update subscription preferences**

    Grrrrr. Public funding used to restrict access.

    Paddlesport bodies reducing access

    Whats the odds this increases the grief we get when paddling from carrog or on a sunday
    Last edited by Mike A; 31st-August-2014 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #2
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    Interesting who they say are involved in this....

    http://www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk/

    an agreement is only an agreement between those who 'agree' to it, nobody else......

    It would be interesting to see the comment from the 'canoe organisations' in this agreement as to why they agreeing to try to restrict access for others....

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    Outrageous. A self serving cartel of financially motivated private interests who have dressed up their grant grabbing activities to almost fraudulent levels in order to deceive the public grant giving organisations, the media and the public.
    Hats off to the major amount of added spin to make it look like they have achieved some kind of universal consensus resulting in some kind of legally binding arrangements which are making major concessions to the public when in fact they are doing nothing of the sort.
    I for one will look forward to paddling the Dee whenever I want, from wherever I want to wherever I want in exercise of what I believe is a universal right governed only by the need to have a right to access land in order enter and leave the water.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by 25272527 View Post
    Outrageous. A self serving cartel of financially motivated private interests who have dressed up their grant grabbing activities to almost fraudulent levels in order to deceive the public grant giving organisations, the media and the public.
    Hats off to the major amount of added spin to make it look like they have achieved some kind of universal consensus resulting in some kind of legally binding arrangements which are making major concessions to the public when in fact they are doing nothing of the sort.
    I for one will look forward to paddling the Dee whenever I want, from wherever I want to wherever I want in exercise of what I believe is a universal right governed only by the need to have a right to access land in order enter and leave the water.
    Mike
    Fran

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    I see BOPA are in on the deal............

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidh View Post
    I see BOPA are in on the deal............
    The British Oncology Pharmacy Association?
    Fran

    Photobucket stole my sig



  7. #7

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    This is an agreement made by/for commercial operators in the area therfore If you're not a commercial operater it doesn't effect you. The phraseology on the website doesn't make this clear.

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    I took the trouble of contacting a number of the watersports organisations. Now that I have, please let's not everyone contact them. They see this as a commercial arrangement purely between themselves and the local angling interests. They do not see this as impacting in any way on the rights and responsibilities of rest of the paddling community. Actually I hadn't realised I know one of the operators of old and he can be quite vocal on the access rights of paddlers and the general public.

    These commercial operations can be quite high impact for other sports so it makes sense for them to come to some accommodation to reduce their impact and to help maintain the points of access.

    I agree the press release looks to be drawing a wider conclusion but this may be a bit of low grade spinning by the author.

  9. #9
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    The Welsh Dee Partnership website suggests that Welsh Dee Partnership Ltd has potentially been funded by up to 6 public sector bodies. EU Agricultural Fund for Rural Development, Splash funding from the Welsh Government, Leader funding, again EU sourced, Rural Development Agency, Denbighshire County Council and National Resources Wales. It would be very interesting to know just how much public money has gone in to their activities.

    Welsh Dee Partnership Ltd has 4 directors. Michael Dalton, Christopher Charters, Gareth Evans and Paul Stafford. It's registered office is Maesmawr Farm. Maesmawr Farm is also the registered office of Welsh Dee fishing Ltd and both Evans and Stafford are also directors of Welsh Dee Fishing Ltd. Michael Dalton owns Mile End Mill Llangollen one of the promoted access points on the website. It is also the registered office of White Water Tubing UK Ltd. Which is also a promoted activity on the website. Also promoted amongst others is white water stand up paddle boarding and Llangollen Outdoors Ltd. The later is also based at Mile End Mill and white water stand up paddle boarding is based at Coed y Glyn Farm, Glyndyfrdwy which is promoted on the website as the main up river access point. That leaves Christopher Charters who is also the general secretary of the British Outdoors Professionals Association. I am not aware of any other members of this association or any roles it has in the outdoors industry other than being a vehicle for Christopher Charters. He is also involved in a similar role with River Wye.

    I wonder what the public in general have to gain from all of this? Could anyone tell me, but please don't suggest that it is extra or guaranteed river access for the general public because that is one thing that this organisation does not have within its powers to provide. It may be providing a couple of controlled access points that the public have to pay for, which makes money for some of those named above. It may be increasing the business of a number of private adventure sport companies, making money for some of those named above and it may be giving the angling lobby the perception of more control over the river. It will also be used by the angling lobby to spin the idea to politicians and the media that it is contributing to the development of consensual access arrangements on the Dee. All of this from money contributed by the good old tax payer. But it is doing nothing at all for greater public access.

    I used to paddle the Dee and think that the river was particularly clean, it certainly always had a clean smell about it but given the above perhaps the nasty smell of filthy lucre is starting to waft down the valley.
    Mike

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    They've got 9 likes on there Facebook page not surprising I've never heard of them mentioned before when paddling in the area
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Welsh...40071292710036
    Last edited by pipster3; 1st-September-2014 at 03:54 PM.

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    Had some replies back, unfortunately there private agreements seem to be being used as an excuse to try to say access is restricted.

  12. Default Llangollen defiance

    Welsh Dee Partnership's give in their "Rule 16 - no wild swimming". Who says? A for-profit PRIVATE company with no legal powers whatsoever. They can "do one"!!

    I showed my defiance at Llangollen on Sun 7th Sept. 14 but no WDP apparatchik showed up

    I wanted to post a pic but I can't. Very pointed email just sent to Yahoo. Seriously p****d off 'cos I have a paid-for subscription. I can't even view my previously uploaded photos - just thumbnails. Until I find out how to view my full sized pics I can't get the embedding code.

    Wildswimmer Pete

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    We will wait with baited breath
    Fran

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  14. Default

    Looks like my moan at Yahoo worked:

    me_selfie_dee 7-9-14 by Wildswimmer Pete, on Flickr
    Last edited by Wildswimmer Pete; 9th-September-2014 at 12:48 AM.

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    Did all those families behind you enjoying the river get ' officially banned from the river' as well Pete?

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    Err..........No. There were plenty out of shot from my position in mid-river, resting on the rocks close to river defence wall. No sign of any anglers, up- nor downstream. After our dip we had tea and a snack at Phil's place Gradient Foods.

    Is WDP just trying it on, or is this the beginning of a war of attrition?

    Wildswimmer Pete

  17. Default

    Compare the facilities I enjoy in Frodsham with the situation at Llangollen:

    https://www.facebook.com/WildswimmerPete/posts/10152627440046208

    Why can't it be like this everywhere in England and Wales? (there's a legal right to swim in Scotland)

    Wildswimmer Pete

  18. #18

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    Hi All, to support the existence of PRN on the Dee, i am looking to try and obtain as much information as possible of all occasions of boat usage on the welsh section of the Dee. If any of you know of any or have some old photos knocking around, please please send them through here or email me gradientfood@gmail.com

    On a more current issue, please consider taking the time to sign the petition to withdraw splash funding from the welsh dee partnership whom are trying hard to restrict usage here; https://www.change.org/p/natural-res...ee-partnership

  19. #19

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    Please sign this petition

    https://www.change.org/p/natural-res...ee-partnership


    just over 200 signatures needed... Only takes a minute...
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  20. #20

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    Hi all, I am sure no one has missed that there is an organisation under the name Welsh Dee Partnership seeking to restrict access on the Welsh Dee, nor that the company is actually just an angling organisation using a generic name.

    Im also sure most of you are aware that there is a petition attempting to stop it in its tracks and complaints to official bodies flying all over the place.

    MORE support is NEEDED. Us paddlers (including me until recent months) are really terrible at acting on our beliefs. For many years now, the access debate has from our side been left to governing bodies and small pockets of individuals because we all think its easier for other people to sort. Its progressing, but terribly terribly slowly.
    Because of this attitude and actions, opposing groups are mobilising and gaining government SPLASH funding which was set up to help groups like us. We dont get it because we play victim!

    If people really truly want hassle free access we really really need to put the effort in. ALL OF US.

    Please please can all those people who agree with the work being done to ensure we can all carry on enjoying the Dee without draconian fishing club restrictions - DO - SOMETHING. Even if its just a signature on the petition thats a massive help. Yes there are already 800 names on there, but an estimated 1,000,000 people got in a canoe or kayak last year. 800 is a tiny fraction of us. Please show your support.

    Those who wish to go a little further, 'like' or comment on the post made to the NRW facebook page with whatever your thoughts - agree or disagree (link below) or further, write to your AM or MP, or directly to NRW or welsh government. BE HEARD.

    We cant complain in the background and moan every time we see Mark Lloyd selling his wares on tv and wishing Canoe Wales or England would do something......they wont! That leaves it to ALL OF US.

    Thanks for reading, here is where you can do something from easiest to more involved (writing emails - not exactly being a martyr!)
    Petition -
    http://www.change.org/p/natural-resourc ... artnership
    Reply or support post on NRW facebook page
    https://www.facebook.com/NatResWales/po ... 6011487174
    Llangollen town council email
    http://www.llangollentowncouncil.co.uk/contact/
    Natural Resource Wales Complaints email;
    complaintsandcommendations@cyfoethnaturiolcymru.go v.uk
    contact your MP (england)
    http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/
    Contact your AM (Wales)
    http://www.assemblywales.org/en/memhome ... mhome.aspx
    Complain to public services ombudsman wales
    http://www.ombudsman-wales.org.uk/

    Raising awareness is a start - and I really urge you to do it. Action forces action however - I am happy being a martyr but I wont do it for a group who wont act too.
    Promoting sustainable access on the welsh Dee from gradientfood.com - an outdoor sports themed sandwich bar in Llangollen

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlipT View Post
    Hi all, I am sure no one has missed that there is an organisation under the name Welsh Dee Partnership seeking to restrict access on the Welsh Dee, nor that the company is actually just an angling organisation using a generic name.
    When you look at the hard facts the Anglers have little more in their armory today than they had last year, it is all smoke and mirrors.

    They have got together with a small group of commercial operators to agree a working plan that suits both of them, this is a Private Agreement only binding on those who agreed to it. Persons not knowing their true intentions would think this was a reasonable way of two conflicting groups sorting out their problems. It is only applicable to those agreeing to it or any landowner who wishes to impose these restrictions on anyone launching from his property. The reason they have included access at Glyndyfrdwy Bridge is so that they can impose these restrictions on anyone launching from there giving them control over a longer section of river. They know that they can not legally enforce these restriction on anyone launching from public property. This is the limit of the legal use of this agreement.

    It is illegal for them to claim that this Private Agreement gives them the power to control access outside the conditions listed above, in my opinion this would be a Fraudulent Act. They would be useing faulse representation to gain an advantage over others, by claiming that this Private Agreement gives them the power to control general navigation. Look at the official wording from the Fraud Act 2006 below it covers the actions being carried out by the WDP very well.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2

    Fraud by false representation.
    (1)A person is in breach of this section if he—

    (a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and
    (b)intends, by making the representation—
    (i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
    (ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

    (2)A representation is false if—
    (a)it is untrue or misleading, and
    (b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

    (3)“Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
    (a)the person making the representation, or
    (b)any other person.

    (4)A representation may be express or implied.

    (5)For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

    They may argue that the legal position has been declared as unclear so they are just interpreting the law in their favor, just as we are, but that is not the issue. The issue is that they are using this Private Agreement in a false way, issuing press notices and published documents inferring that this agreement covers all paddlers irrespective of where they launch from is false information. We should gather as much information as possible, published documents, misleading signs, confrontations with WDP representatives etc for future use, give them enough rope and they should hang themselves.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  22. #22

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    Cloudman very valid points.

    I only have one thing to add - and that is that the commercial signatories did not do so of their own accord so far as i have been led to believe. I am told that they were led to sign by threat of court action and solicitor letters. We can argue that they could have told WDP to sod off, but would anyone here honestly risk their entire business for what at best would be a costly and crappy solicitors argument? My guess is that they would like to see the back of this as much as the rest of us.....and would probably like the money back they had to pay out to be part of this agreement. Its very sad but no one really wants to be a martyr.
    Promoting sustainable access on the welsh Dee from gradientfood.com - an outdoor sports themed sandwich bar in Llangollen

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlipT View Post
    Cloudman very valid points.

    I only have one thing to add - and that is that the commercial signatories did not do so of their own accord so far as i have been led to believe. I am told that they were led to sign by threat of court action and solicitor letters. We can argue that they could have told WDP to sod off, but would anyone here honestly risk their entire business for what at best would be a costly and crappy solicitors argument? My guess is that they would like to see the back of this as much as the rest of us.....and would probably like the money back they had to pay out to be part of this agreement. Its very sad but no one really wants to be a martyr.
    I am sure you are right about them having little choice but to sign up, and I am not disputing that the agreement is valid between the parties involved, it is the extended uses it is being put to that are the problem. No one wants to be a martyr for good reason, it could be very costly. What we need is a national organisation willing to get involved with these problems so sharing the risk, this is what the WDP have done by forming a limited company to protect themselves.

    As you are at the heart of this problem trading as you do in Llangollen, what do the locals think, do they support the anglers or the paddlers? I have looked on the local council website but can't see any comments from the local councillors, have the council taken a position on this or are they sitting on the fence.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  24. #24

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    Oh i entirely agree - if the wording on the agreement/arrangement (whatever its called this week) clearly demonstrated that this was only relevant to its signatories there wouldn't be a problem, but it isnt - and the anglers are being told to police it indiscriminately. Today i had a local customer in who has just taken up paddling again after 20 years away from it - he told me he was hassled by people a couple of weeks ago taking photos and making threats. He had no idea what was going on......and it has put him off getting on the river again. Us seasoned paddlers know to ignore it - but we shouldn't have to, and these anglers should be stopped from scaring people off! These people are forming their own law and thats not on.

    But anyway, in answer to your questions, from what i can tell - absolutely no one local has a clue about any of it. Ive contacted a couple of the local bloggers who seem to write about everything that happens here and they had never heard of any of the issues at all. Speaking to a couple of local paddlers not in the internet loop - they too had no idea of any of it. It seems that the only parties aware anything is going on are the anglers, the internet savvy boaters and the commercial river users. Thats it.

    The next council meeting is in a couple of weeks and i wish to attend and discuss, but i am very aware that the local political circle is heavily angler occupied and as such biased. I am however looking to get involved in the towns recently awarded cittaslow status which is in place to assist in all elements of bettering the local environment for residents and being more responsible. Hopefully (as i understand it better) it will be relevant to outdoor sports tourism too.
    Promoting sustainable access on the welsh Dee from gradientfood.com - an outdoor sports themed sandwich bar in Llangollen

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlipT View Post
    The next council meeting is in a couple of weeks and i wish to attend and discuss, but i am very aware that the local political circle is heavily angler occupied and as such biased. I am however looking to get involved in the towns recently awarded cittaslow status which is in place to assist in all elements of bettering the local environment for residents and being more responsible. Hopefully (as i understand it better) it will be relevant to outdoor sports tourism too.
    I am not surprised at the lack of knowledge about this from the residents, in general terms it is a storm in a tea cup but important to us. I presume you have seen this report commissioned by the council at considerable cost, if not you may find it useful.

    http://www.llangollentowncouncil.co....mWHSReport.pdf

    The wording on the agreement is irrelevant it is only the persons signing a contract who are bound by it, unless they have received a mandate from other parties to sign on their behalf. They have no mandate to act on behalf of the general public so the contract is a private arrangement not affecting anyone else. If I had an agreement with one of the other cafes in Llangollen to have a 75% discount on all food purchased in Llangollen would you feel bound to honour it or would you tell me to "B" off to the cafe I had the agreement with? No one can sign a contract for another without their permission.

    Have you opened the shop yet, I will pass on the details to my climbing mates.

    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  26. #26
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    I've just read the report. As a frequent reader of such reports in my career as a civil engineer, and as a practicing consultant myself for a time, I must say that if one of the commissioning bodies, I'd be pretty unhappy with the result. Part of the trouble is that it would appear that the Heritage site is not Llangollen, but the Horseshoe falls, the feeder canal and the Aqueduct. As such, the focus is on "tarting up" Llangollen, for which there will be no money, and little enthusiasm.

    How an in depth study can ignore the effect of the Llangollen International Eisteddord (spelling?) is unbelievable, but does, perhaps, explain why the attraction of the River for paddlers, rafters and wild swimmers seems to have been ignored.

    My experience of Councillors is that they tend only to read the executive summary, unless something catches their eye, and on the basis of this, consider themselves to be experts.

    My advice would be to seek personal contact with the appropriate ward Councillors at borough and county level, and try to get them on site, or even in a raft. Then the history of huge entries for Slalom and River Race, Mike Jones Rally and the Manchester Canoe Club Dee Tour could paint a different picture. Of course we have to admit that the competitive disciplines no longer attract the numbers, but last years festival had a pretty good turn out, as I believe the Pyranha Paddle Fest has had.

    As a fluent speaker of "councillor-and-local-government-ese", but not Welsh, I'd be happy to help where I could.

    Impcanoe

    Impcanoe

  27. #27

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    Cloudman, yeah i read that whole doc along with all the town plans for the last few years before moving here. Much fun was had sifting through that i can tell you! I nearly lost the will to live.
    But yes i completely agree with your points.

    Impcanoe, i also entirely agree - Llangollen from memory is categorised as being on the fringe of the WHS - but to be honest WHS doesnt actually open doors to any money - it seems to basically mean you get your site recognised internationally and any future building work or modifications become bound by more pain in the ass red tape........but at least "world heritage site" sounds impressive!

    There are several overlapping schemes here such as cittaslow status that has been awarded, and i am trying to dig through them all to work out what is actually going on and whom is behind it.....but its all taking time!

    Impcanoe, i will take you up on that as i get hold of more of the jargon documents because i am certain the translation i make from them will not be the same as the one you get!

    Cloudman - yep up and running on Oak Street in Llan - do all the normal sandwich shop type stuff (getting into more and more home made stuff as time goes on) and at normal town prices - no tourist tax here! The menu is on the website somewhere (i havent got to grips with it yet) at www.gradientfood.com
    Promoting sustainable access on the welsh Dee from gradientfood.com - an outdoor sports themed sandwich bar in Llangollen

  28. #28
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    http://www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co...er_Sep2014.pdf

    On 19th September, we suspended our Facebook page due to some rather ‘ripe’ language

    being used and will make announcements for the time being using our Web site.
    Our final statement on the page for those of you who missed it was:
    This Facebook page was closed temporarily because it has been subjected to extremist
    views from certain members of the canoeing fraternity who have made allegations of fraud
    and wrong-doing – which are completely without foundation.
    The basic principle behind Welsh Dee Partnership (WDP) has always been to ‘park at the
    door’ differences in opinion concerning the law and navigation rights in order to improve
    relations between canoeists and anglers.
    We will continue with that primary aim on behalf of the moderate parties from both sides.
    We are not prepared to spend our small budget in dealing with the extremist views of either anglers or canoeists and respectfully suggest that those individuals who feel strongly about these matters, direct their views to other Web sites / discussion forums which have been set up for this purpose.
    I (as Access Co-ordinator) have been instructed not to enter into any further eMail
    correspondence or Facebook responses, so that the small budget under which we operate
    can be used for the purposes for which WDP was originally set up.
    We will be closing our Facebook page within 24 hours and making any further
    announcements via our Web site – www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co.uk.
    It looks like they have drawn up the drawbridge. Well done everyone who gave them hell. All we have to do to get our rights is to take them and shout about it. There is no lawful way to stop us.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angut View Post
    http://www.welshdeepartnershipltd.co...er_Sep2014.pdf


    It looks like they have drawn up the drawbridge. Well done everyone who gave them hell. All we have to do to get our rights is to take them and shout about it. There is no lawful way to stop us.

    Love it, an access coordinator who isnt prepared to talk and coordinate access.

    Now remind me what he his being paid out of public funds to do?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike A View Post
    Love it, an access coordinator who isnt prepared to talk and coordinate access.

    Now remind me what he his being paid out of public funds to do?
    He is being paid to restrict access on behalf of Welsh Dee Fishing ltd (Mr Evans at a little farm at LLangollen) which is a WUF franchise. So WAG is paying him to promote the interests of SMS in the silly power game SMS is playing to become the controller of all fishing in Wales. The question to ask is what unnatural power or influence SMS has over WAG and NRW and does this serve the public interest and is it lawful.

    Note that WAG has no powers to alter the common law rights in the joint jurisdiction of England and Wales. These rights belong to all the people in England and Wales. WAG can not legislate for the residents in England. NRW which is a branch of the EA has no remit for navigation on unregulated watercourses. It would seem that the principle actors on SMS' behalf do not have the statutory powers to do what they are doing. " Oh what a tangled web we weave ..."

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angut View Post
    He is being paid to restrict access on behalf of Welsh Dee Fishing ltd (Mr Evans at a little farm at LLangollen) which is a WUF franchise. So WAG is paying him to promote the interests of SMS in the silly power game SMS is playing to become the controller of all fishing in Wales. The question to ask is what unnatural power or influence SMS has over WAG and NRW and does this serve the public interest and is it lawful.

    Note that WAG has no powers to alter the common law rights in the joint jurisdiction of England and Wales. These rights belong to all the people in England and Wales. WAG can not legislate for the residents in England. NRW which is a branch of the EA has no remit for navigation on unregulated watercourses. It would seem that the principle actors on SMS' behalf do not have the statutory powers to do what they are doing. " Oh what a tangled web we weave ..."
    Andy

    Can you clarify what these TLAs stand for?
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


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    As one of the militant extremists who dared to post on their facebook page, I can't say I noticed any particularly ripe language.

    They say in their newsletter that the number of "likes" on their page had gone up - the likes were universally posted by people rating their page at 1 star (the lowest) and adding disapprobrious comments regarding the agreement.

    Strangely their newsletter makes no reference to the Change.org petition with 1500 signatures requesting that the Welsh Dee Partnership SPLASH funding should be withdrawn . . . .
    ​Change is inevitable; progress is optional.

  33. #33

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    SandfordSailor - fortunately some people had the good sense to screenshot the pages before they were taken down.
    WDP were also kind enough to advise where i need to send corrective emails to ensure that the full and correct position is known before any clubs make incorrect judgement based on believing this company to be legitimate.

    The wording on the proposed signage also needs to be amended to clearly state agreement is only between members of WDP. If it isnt then permission will be sought to erect corrective signs advising paddlers who may be mislead. Hopefully this will be agreed before the WDP signage is altered by people to reflect the truth.
    Promoting sustainable access on the welsh Dee from gradientfood.com - an outdoor sports themed sandwich bar in Llangollen

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    WDP now taking credit for Dave manbys charity Paddle in there newsletter. How low can you get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicky View Post
    WDP now taking credit for Dave manbys charity Paddle in there newsletter. How low can you get.
    This kind of thing is SOP for a certain other organisation who claimed (ambiguously - it's true) credit for SNR, which they had absolutely nothing to do with.

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    With all these acronyms, I am getting to a point where I don't understand any of this. TLAs indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    With all these acronyms, I am getting to a point where I don't understand any of this. TLAs indeed.
    Oh come-on Adrian - everyone knows that SOP stands for Standard Operating Procedure, and SNR for Semi-Natural Release .

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidh View Post
    Oh come-on Adrian - everyone knows that SOP stands for Standard Operating Procedure, and SNR for Semi-Natural Release .
    Well I didn't... and what about WUF, WAG SMS NRW ... Are we trying to communicate or not?
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


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    I'm with doug... Half of them I don't know, I think WAG = welsh assembly government and NRW= natural resources wales...... Other than that not a clue

  40. #40

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    WUF - WyeUsk Foundation
    WDP - Welsh Dee Partnership
    SMS - He who must not be named?

    Maybe we should use the full term and acronym on first mention in a thread, then anyone not familiar with the acronym can scroll back and check it out.

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    N R W, National Resources Wales, known locally as...N R W = Not Really Working
    Mike

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    I had to look up TLA and I thought SMS was something to do with texting

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    I could do with enlightening if you don't mind Adrian.
    ​Change is inevitable; progress is optional.

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    TLA = Three letter acronym!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    An acronym for acronyms; whatever next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Bell View Post
    WUF - WyeUsk Foundation
    WDP - Welsh Dee Partnership
    SMS - He who must not be named?

    Maybe we should use the full term and acronym on first mention in a thread, then anyone not familiar with the acronym can scroll back and check it out.
    Sorry everbody, I have form for assuming everyone knows the TLAs.

    I am far enough away to name him without reprisals from hobgobblins or dragon attacks. SMS is Stephen Marsh-Smith, the evil genious behind WUF (Wye and Usk Foundation), the abomimation that makes desolate. All that threatens his power, like public rights and fish conservation, must be destroyed. Even the extremist fishermen on the Wye are against him and the way he operates.Davidh on the Protection of salmon thread has things to say too, as do other fish conservationist. Mr Evans of Llangollen is the prophet of the beast.

    The big question is what is the nature of the ring that rules Natural Resources Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government and in the darkness binds them?

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    SMS - He who must not be named?
    Voldemort?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicky View Post
    Voldemort?
    Chancer!

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    Originally Posted by Quicky
    Voldemort?
    Chancer!
    Too much Harry Potter bedtime stories for the son at the mo.... hehe

  49. #49

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    It looks like we can all stop campaigning because British Canoeing are on the case!

    The have won the youth sports NGB award for ...."breaking down barriers of facility, equipment and access to water," From CE's facebook page.

    I wonder what they have done to gain such praise, i must obviously have missed it. I thought they had done bu*ger all, obviously i was mistaken.

    From CE facebook 7 October

    Great news!
    British Canoeing has won the NGB Award at the recent YST National Sport Games Organisers summit www.youthsporttrust.org/…/sgo-national-summit-awards-2014.a….

    We really like the quote explaining why we won:
    "The sport has been open to all suggestions in terms of developing an offer that is accessible to all young people not only breaking down barriers of facility, equipment and access to water, but also focussing on opportunities for young people with disabilities.
    "They have also sought to increase participation in targeted areas by adopting a strategic supply and demand approach. They had also maximised C4L opportunities."




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    And we complain about TLAs

  51. Default

    The Welsh Dee Partnership problem featured on an edition of BBC 1's "One" show. It was captured for posterior - sorry posterity on YouTube. Here it is in all its glory (have a sick bag handy):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2drm...utu.be&t=2m42s

    Yes, in my view Mark Lloyd of Angling Trust/Fish Legal does look like a hobgoblin

    Wildswimmer Pete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildswimmer Pete View Post
    The Welsh Dee Partnership problem featured on an edition of BBC 1's "One" show. It was captured for posterior - sorry posterity on YouTube. Here it is in all its glory (have a sick bag handy):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2drm...utu.be&t=2m42s

    Yes, in my view Mark Lloyd of Angling Trust/Fish Legal does look like a hobgoblin

    Wildswimmer Pete
    Mark Lloyd claims to know case law that supports his view but like Robbo11 on this forum he can not give us the exact words from these cases which support his view. Come on Mark, Put up or shut up. This is becoming tedious.

    PS I have never seen a hobgobblin so I don't know what they look like.

  53. #53

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    My view is that landowners should be more accepting of canoeing where it is appropriate and canoiests should stop stealing exclusive rights where they exist. There will always be war on the water if we follow your way. That will be your legacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    My view is that landowners should be more accepting of canoeing where it is appropriate and canoiests should stop stealing exclusive rights where they exist. There will always be war on the water if we follow your way. That will be your legacy.
    Robbo, you know as well as I do that the word exclusive in "exclusive fishing rights" is an adjective, synominous with sole, qualifying the noun phrase "fishing rights" To extract from this a verb form "right to exclude" does violence to the English language. Only another fisherman can steal your exclusive rights.
    We are still waiting to hear from you or Mark Lloyd the exact words from any legislation or case law that gives fishermen any say whatsoever in navigation. Until then we will go with Lord Denning and say that "fishermen would just have to put up with the disturbance" Halisbury's Laws of England 4th Edition.

  55. #55

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    You've got your knicks in a twist. Denning actually injuncted a canoeist and said he could injure fishing rights even when he wasn't there and Caffyn, your false phophet, argued against the valdility of Halisbury's Laws of England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    You've got your knicks in a twist.
    In Halsbury’s Laws of England, 4th Edition, Reissue, Volume 49(2) (London: Butterworths, 1997), para 743 fn 8 it says

    Lord Denning MR added (although he was not reported on this point) that there are many cases in which a canoeist has a right to navigate; the right may be acquired by long user or by grant or reservation, and if the canoeist has the right, the owners of the fishing rights must allow the navigation and put up with the disturbance of the fishing
    No PRN was claimed in Rawson v Peters. It wouldn't set any precedent for any future case where PRN would be claimed.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    You've got your knicks in a twist. Denning actually injuncted a canoeist and said he could injure fishing rights even when he wasn't there and Caffyn, your false phophet, argued against the valdility of Halisbury's Laws of England.
    Denning declined to give an injuction but gave leave to apply for one in the County Court thus making a clear separation between control of navigation and the issue on which he judged which was the disturbance of fish. This rested on the annecdotal evidence of the secretary for the plaintiff. Subsequent research by the NRA proved this wrong. Halisbury's 5th edition makes no mention of Rawson v Peters in relation to navigation.
    he could injure fishing rights even when he wasn't there
    Does this mean I could be sued for not canoeing, just being a canoeist? Is this the basis for AT's case against the BCU?

    Halisbury's is a very big book. It would take several lifetimes to argue against all of it. As I recall Caffyn argued against giving authority to Woolrych's comment which was contrary to the legislation then in force so has no status in law.

    We are still waiting for some exact words from legislation or case law.

  58. #58

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    Keith Day; 'That's why in the reference to Rawson v Peters in Halsbury’s Laws of England it is stated that, ‘Lord Denning MR added (although he was not reported on this point) that there are many cases in which a canoeist has a right to navigate; the right may be acquired by long user or by grant or reservation, and if the canoeist has the right, the owners of the fishing rights must allow the navigation and put up with the disturbance of the fishing.’

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    Keith Day; 'That's why in the reference to Rawson v Peters in Halsbury’s Laws of England it is stated that, ‘Lord Denning MR added (although he was not reported on this point) that there are many cases in which a canoeist has a right to navigate; the right may be acquired by long user or by grant or reservation, and if the canoeist has the right, the owners of the fishing rights must allow the navigation and put up with the disturbance of the fishing.’
    We are not talking about acquiring a right, we never were. The right existed as an historical fact. The question is how may it have been extinguished. If no one can present legislation or the exercise of statutory powers that may have extinguished the right then it still exists and has the same scope as it did in medieval times. That is all flowing water, every brook and stream, that has the "natural and visible capacity for use."

    Your move

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    and canoiests should stop stealing exclusive rights where they exist.
    Are you going to advise us of where you consider these rights exist, or is this just a throwaway comment for effect.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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