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Thread: Threatened Legal Action by Angling Trust

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    Are you really talking about the second sentence? "I’m a lawyer and have written a peer reviewed legal rebuttal which has polarised as his work."

    I'm not a Barrister or an Expert Witness.
    A person can assist the court as an expert witness on just about anything, through education or experience. A solicitor was once asked to give his expert opinion on hand writting styles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    "Im a lawyer and have written a peer reviewed legal rebuttal which is as polarised as his work".

    Legal dissertations do not debate both sides. It isn't for the author to contribute a single point in favour of the opposite view. That's why DC's work reads in the way that it does. It's a horrible way of writing but it serves a purpose.
    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    A person can assist the court as an expert witness on just about anything, through education or experience. A solicitor was once asked to give his expert opinion on hand writting styles.
    Now there is a sentence I can understand. Quite correct too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    I bet you would!
    How does it become "Peer Reviewed" if it's a secret? Do you only get it reviewed by carefully selected people who you know agree with you before you show it to them?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_re...nd_suppression
    Last edited by KeithD; 31st-August-2014 at 02:10 PM.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    How does it become "Peer Reviewed" if it's a secret? Do you only get it reviewed by carefully selected people who you know agree with you before you show it to them?
    As part of a higher degree dissertation I would think.

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    Nice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicky View Post
    New news item on the RAFA site re the AT.

    http://www.riveraccessforall.co.uk/news.php#atmc
    Excellent!

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    Mark Lloyd didn't impress many Welsh anglers when he talked at Builth on Sunday evidently.
    The Director of the Wye and Usk Foundation didn't bother turning up - just as well, because there were one or two questions waiting for him.
    The rumour is that the guys from the Valleys tend not to take prisoners.

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    So here we have a situation where few anglers or paddlers have much respect for the folk "leading" the whole debate on either side (AT/BCU)! No wonder progress is somewhat slow...


    *Note by leading, I'm talking about what a layperson would think of as an "official" body, not the excellent efforts made by less public figures on our behalf.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    So here we have a situation where few anglers or paddlers have much respect for the folk "leading" the whole debate on either side (AT/BCU)! No wonder progress is somewhat slow...


    *Note by leading, I'm talking about what a layperson would think of as an "official" body, not the excellent efforts made by less public figures on our behalf.
    Yep - explains a lot Mal, doesn't it?
    I believe that Lloyd is a great believer in the wonderful works of the Wye and Usk Foundation too..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    So here we have a situation where few anglers or paddlers have much respect for the folk "leading" the whole debate on either side (AT/BCU)! No wonder progress is somewhat slow...
    *Note by leading, I'm talking about what a layperson would think of as an "official" body, not the excellent efforts made by less public figures on our behalf.

    Is this the sort of leadership you have in mind? http://www.ramblers.org.uk/what-we-d...t-to-roam.aspx
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    So here we have a situation where few anglers or paddlers have much respect for the folk "leading" the whole debate on either side (AT/BCU)! No wonder progress is somewhat slow...


    *Note by leading, I'm talking about what a layperson would think of as an "official" body, not the excellent efforts made by less public figures on our behalf.
    Interesting parallels to some other campaigns I've seen recently.

    The way things are going, grassroots campaigns seem to be much more effective than relying on "governing bodies" and officials and suchlike. RAFA is an excellent example of an effective grassroots group. Keep up the good work, guys.

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    The guys at RAFA are doing a great job... please support them, if you can....
    Doug Dew
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    It's hard to consider something that hasn't happened as "news" but it seems that British Canoeing responded with a thoughtful and considered answer and the bluff and bluster of the Angling Trust failed to live up to it's own rhetoric - there has been no legal action initiated.
    Keith

  17. #77

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    British Canoeing seemed to have dropped any reference to access campaigning in the latest issue of Canoe Focus. The Anglers Trust has achieved its aim. Given the contrast between the campaigning focus of organisations such as the Ramblers and the British Mountaineering Council and the already feeble efforts of British Canoeing, my guess is that British Canoeing has decided to cease all access campaigning.
    Last edited by dougdew99; 17th-December-2014 at 07:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    British Canoeing seemed to have dropped any reference to access campaigning in the latest issue of Canoe Focus. The Anglers Trust has achieved its aim. Given the contrast between the campaigning focus of organisations such as the Ramblers and the British Mountaineering Council and the already feeble efforts of British Canoeing, my guess is that British Canoeing has decided to cease all access campaigning.
    Sadly it looks as if British Canoeing has capitulated, they have edited all their Access Campaign pages and the http://www.riversaccess.org/ website is inactive. This will do them considerable harm as it looks as if there will have to be a dedicated organisation set up to fight the cause, this was always on the cards as the funding of British Canoeing was always going to be a problem, he who pays the piper calls the tune.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Sadly it looks as if British Canoeing has capitulated, they have edited all their Access Campaign pages and the http://www.riversaccess.org/ website is inactive. This will do them considerable harm as it looks as if there will have to be a dedicated organisation set up to fight the cause, this was always on the cards as the funding of British Canoeing was always going to be a problem, he who pays the piper calls the tune.
    I guess this why no legal action has been initiated. Given the breathtaking apathy of the canoeing world with regard to this issue, I doubt whether a dedicated organisation to fight the cause will be formed, and if it were, whether it would receive any support from the man-in-the-street canoeist. This site has demonstrated that, while there are canoeists who will discuss the issues ad nauseum, endlessly re-hashing them, there is no-one, apart from one or two honourable exceptions, who are prepared to take any real campaigning action whatsoever to advance this just cause.
    Doug Dew
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    I guess this why no legal action has been initiated. Given the breathtaking apathy of the canoeing world with regard to this issue, I doubt whether a dedicated organisation to fight the cause will be formed, and if it were, whether it would receive any support from the man-in-the-street canoeist. This site has demonstrated that, while there are canoeists who will discuss the issues ad nauseum, endlessly re-hashing them, there is no-one, apart from one or two honourable exceptions, who are prepared to take any real campaigning action whatsoever to advance this just cause.
    I can't argue with any of that, it took the jailing of protesters to spark the formation of the Ramblers Association. The Anglers will at some stage create a situation that may do the same for the rivers, time will tell.
    If any new organisation were to include the same paddling licence and Public Liability cover that is offered by Canoe England then I believe many would join as that is the only reason they join Canoe England.
    Last edited by cloudman; 17th-December-2014 at 12:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    I guess this why no legal action has been initiated. Given the breathtaking apathy of the canoeing world with regard to this issue, I doubt whether a dedicated organisation to fight the cause will be formed, and if it were, whether it would receive any support from the man-in-the-street canoeist. This site has demonstrated that, while there are canoeists who will discuss the issues ad nauseum, endlessly re-hashing them, there is no-one, apart from one or two honourable exceptions, who are prepared to take any real campaigning action whatsoever to advance this just cause.
    We had had quite a lot of campaigning over the years but very little result, for me the writing was on the wall when the BCU changed its name to Canoe England.

    I have nothing but admiration, gratitude and thanks for those of us who have actually campaigned hard for changes but I don't think we are going to get this issue settled until the AA or a landowner is prepared to bring an action and the canoeist concerned prepared to stand ground - that would be the point where the mettle of members might would be tested with calls for a fighting fund. Personally I have stopped short of trying to organise any deliberately provocative paddle but have recently bought one of these helmet cams - not for taking pretty videos but for evidence if I turn out to be that canoeist singled out for attention.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Sadly it looks as if British Canoeing has capitulated, they have edited all their Access Campaign pages and the http://www.riversaccess.org/ website is inactive. This will do them considerable harm as it looks as if there will have to be a dedicated organisation set up to fight the cause, this was always on the cards as the funding of British Canoeing was always going to be a problem, he who pays the piper calls the tune.
    For anyone who wants the content of this site it's still available courtesy of way back machine at http://web.archive.org/web/201409130...ersaccess.org/
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


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    The various policy statements appear to be still on the CE website

    http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/wate...d-statements-/

    I can't tell if they have been changed but are dated 2012

  24. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    The various policy statements appear to be still on the CE website

    http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/wate...d-statements-/

    I can't tell if they have been changed but are dated 2012
    they appear to be blank when I follow this link
    Doug Dew
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  25. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    they appear to be blank when I follow this link
    They are still there, but you have to follow a couple more links (on the left) to get to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    I guess this why no legal action has been initiated.
    I think the reason no legal action has been initiated is the overwhelming amount of evidence for public navigation rights and the total absence of any convincing evidence against it. This being so, those that oppose navigation stand some chance of achieving some of their objectives through threat and intimidation and no chance through a formal legal decision which is why you will see threat and intimidation (bluff and bluster) but no court action.
    Keith

  27. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    I think the reason no legal action has been initiated is the overwhelming amount of evidence for public navigation rights and the total absence of any convincing evidence against it. This being so, those that oppose navigation stand some chance of achieving some of their objectives through threat and intimidation and no chance through a formal legal decision which is why you will see threat and intimidation (bluff and bluster) but no court action.

    Keith, any thoughts on why British Canoeing have closed their Access Campaign web site and stopped including access issues in Canoe Focus?

    i think further discussion as to the legal position has limited utility. The facts are known to all sides due to excellent work by you and others. The elite which rules this country are firmly on the side of the land owners and anglers. They care nothing for what the law might be. This situation will only change when canoeists engage in a campaign of action, similar to the work of the Ramblers, which forces the politicians to take notice. If there was a will to do this, then some progress might be made. Until then, the status quo will continue.

    it is important to note that those who oppose navigation have already achieved their objective, evidenced by the fact that very few canoeists paddle on the 40,000 miles of rivers 'forbidden' to them. Those who oppose navigation are merely defending their position; and this in the absence of any real pressure to change it, and with the connivance of their friends in high places. It would appear that body who represents canoeists, British Canoeing, has capitulated when the slightest pressure has been applied; is anyone surprised? The opposition to access is well organized and skillful. We are not.
    Last edited by dougdew99; 18th-December-2014 at 07:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    Keith, any thoughts on why British Canoeing have closed their Access Campaign web site and stopped including access issues in Canoe Focus?

    This situation will only change when canoeists engage in a campaign of action, similar to the work of the Ramblers, which forces the politicians to take notice. If there was a will to do this, then some progress might be made. Until then, the status quo will continue.

    It would appear that body who represents canoeists, British Canoeing, has capitulated when the slightest pressure has been applied; is anyone surprised? The opposition to access is well organized and skillful. We are not.
    The question is are British Canoeing the body that represents canoeist in this matter, they do a good job of training people and promoting the sports side but is there anything in their DNA to require them to take on the access battle, I don't see it. They rely on public funding to enable their work but this will be ring fenced for specific purposes, they could use members subs to fund legal action but that could wipe them out if they got into a protracted action. This is the same situation that the RSPCA got themselves into, taking on the legal fight against fox hunting and other practices with money primarily raised to protect and treat sick animals, they are still trying to sort out the problems that policy caused. Only an organisation with the same ethos as the Ramblers Association will stand a chance of winning this war, Canoe England will I am sure continue their soft campaigning but it will not be enough to get anything like an acceptable result.

    We need a "Paddlers Association" dedicated to fighting for access and facilitating leisure paddling.
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    "We need a "Paddlers Association" dedicated to fighting for access and facilitating leisure paddling."

    Too true , a dedicated campaigning membership representative body is needed. Biu it needs to extend beyond paddling to include wild swimming which already has a membership representative body. Perhaps it would be useeful to talk with them. The trouble is that all these organisations are single user representative bodies. Similarily the Ramblers are a single user body and rarely step beyond a narrow remit to represent walkers, ditto the BMC and climbers/ hillwalkers. I'm not suggesting that the Ramblers or the BMC should campaign for river access but it is symptomatic of the limiting problems of being a single interest representative body, which possibly explains why British Canoeing struggles with access campaigns, especially as the sporting and training elements are so much more easily defined and achievable. The only access campaigning body that is not a single interest representative body and campaigns for the resource rather than the user is the Open Spaces Society, very small but massivley effective. Perhaps people need to start talking to them and perhaps lobbying them to take an interest in river access. I'm sure that they'd welcome an influx of members and the income that it would bring.
    Mike

  30. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    The question is are British Canoeing the body that represents canoeist in this matter, they do a good job of training people and promoting the sports side but is there anything in their DNA to require them to take on the access battle, I don't see it. They rely on public funding to enable their work but this will be ring fenced for specific purposes, they could use members subs to fund legal action but that could wipe them out if they got into a protracted action. This is the same situation that the RSPCA got themselves into, taking on the legal fight against fox hunting and other practices with money primarily raised to protect and treat sick animals, they are still trying to sort out the problems that policy caused. Only an organisation with the same ethos as the Ramblers Association will stand a chance of winning this war, Canoe England will I am sure continue their soft campaigning but it will not be enough to get anything like an acceptable result.

    We need a "Paddlers Association" dedicated to fighting for access and facilitating leisure paddling.
    The BCU have maintained that they have been actively campaigning for more than thirty years and that this is a number one priority for them. In the past they have claimed that every employee considered this a major issue. Since this is either untrue or they have been remarkably unsuccessful, they have had a largely negative effect. This is because the average member, if he or she had any interest, felt that the BCU had it in hand and he or she need to do nothing.

    It would be preferable if British Canoeing were honest with their members and stated unequivocally that they are not campaigning on this issue. Then everyone would know where they stand and some grassroots organisation might spring up. Based on my experience of their officials, I do not expect them to do this and the current confusion to continue. Expect an 'official' statement from them sometime soon, continuing the pretense that they are actively campaigning and including some patronizing nonsense that this a 'long game'.
    Doug Dew
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    Maybe it's just my perception but it looks as if the BCU's 30 year campaign has until recently been based on the slogan "Can we come and paddle on your river and we'll only do it when you say we can."

    Wasn't that what VAAs were all about?

  32. #92

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    Do we actually need an access campaign? Is there still a battle to fight? Are we not convinced that there is a general right of navigation?

    It seems to me that we just need to get on and paddle. Some people with vested interests might occasionally get a bit shouty, but does that really matter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    Do we actually need an access campaign? Is there still a battle to fight? Are we not convinced that there is a general right of navigation?

    It seems to me that we just need to get on and paddle. Some people with vested interests might occasionally get a bit shouty, but does that really matter?
    If it wasn't for the Ramblers, half the present footpaths would be unusable due to all manner of obstructions, they record and walk all the paths in their area each year and do their best to sort out any problems, we should also be doing this. The Anglers and land owners are doing the same with the rivers, trying to enforce restricted access as in Llangollen and the upper Wye, fencing off access points to the rivers etc. They will continue doing this until they manage to lock down as many areas as possible, once these areas are lost it is very difficult to get them back, death by a thousand cuts. Even if this never goes to court we will still have a battle to fight.
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    "Do we actually need an access campaign? Is there still a battle to fight? Are we not convinced that there is a general right of navigation? It seems to me that we just need to get on and paddle. Some people with vested interests might occasionally get a bit shouty, but does that really matter?"

    Personally I’m always shocked by the derisory levels of access provision that paddlers tolerate compared to other users of the countryside such as walkers and riders. I’m fed up with the lottery of wondering whether or not I’ll be able to get my boat in the water at a given point. Whether or not I’ll be able to complete a given journey due to blockages and whether or not my journey will be interrupted by threats from others. I’m sick and tired of risking hernias struggling to get my boat over fences, stiles and gates when a little sympathy, understanding and imagination could provide a canoe friendly structure. Lastly I despair about ever being able to open up our fantastic rivers resource to the general public in an open and transparent way without them needing to become members of clubs, forums etc and have to access almost secret information on websites about where they can go, where they can put their boat in the water and where they can get it out. What I want is to have a similar level of clarity and certainty for paddlers regarding where they can paddle and equally where they can get in and out of the water as walker, equestrians and cyclists have with regard to where they can walk and ride; and how they get onto and off footpaths/ bridleways etc from the road.

    So, I’d like to be able to be part of some campaigning organisation that would pursue these or similar aims on my behalf. I doubt whether that will ever be British Canoeing. It might well be the River Access for All Campaign but because that is not a membership organisation I have no idea what it is doing and so at the moment it could not properly fit that bill. In the absence of anything else I submit rants to this forum in the hope that someone will pick up the cudgels and develop something that I can support and be involved in.
    So, the following, set out below is my “manifesto” that I would hope that some organisation will come forward and pursue. Perhaps, given the time of year I should send it to Father Christmas in the hope that I might get a really good Christmas present!
    1. Working towards clarifying the overall access principles either by resolving the common law situation and/ or making changes to primary legislation.
    2. Clarifying by discussion, and liaison with others, including scientific evidence based information and making binding in law any temporary limitations on use, based on river levels. Those river levels to be as displayed on the Environment Agency river levels website information.
    3. Clarifying in law the right of access to water from public highways and public open space.
    4. Undertaking surveys to identify suitable access points from public highways and public open spaces and working with Ordnance Survey to develop a map icon and displaying that icon on Ordnance Survey 50,000 and 25,000 maps.
    5. Working with government and others to introduce a duty which is fully resourced, for highway authorities to provide and maintain canoe friendly access furniture that also ensures that barriers remain adequately stock proof at access locations.
    6. Working with the Environment Agency, government and others to clarify responsibilities for the removal of life threatening blockages and strainers to establish, a) where responsibilities lie or should lie b) a reporting system c) agreed timescales for removal following reporting and d) provision of resources.
    7. Producing a code of practice similar to the Countryside Code.
    Mike

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    Thanks Mike, you make some compelling arguments. I like the idea of having a manifesto, and here are some thoughts to add into the mix:

    1. I doubt this will ever become prominent enough to cause any change to primary legislation, it's just not a big enough deal on the scale of things. The only people who can conclusively resolve the common law situation are those who do not want paddlers on the river. As we've seen though they won't do this because the know they'll lose. This was why I said we just need to get on and paddle.

    2. I don't know what mechanism would be used to make these legally binding restrictions, or even if it would be possible without some enabling primary legislation, but if we go down this route then we could find we end up with decisions that we are not at all happy with. I would tend to steer very clear of this if at all possible.

    3. Does it need clarifying? Is it in dispute anywhere?

    4. There's the very excellent Paddlepoints web site http://www.paddlepoints.net which we can all contribute to. This is likely to be more realistic than getting funding for surveys. The OS have a "slipway" symbol that they use on 1:25,000 maps, so I suppose they might be persuaded to add something. I've no idea how the decision making works, but it's something that could be investigated. It may turn out that there are actually too many to make it practical.

    5. In the current financial situation I think that extra funding for this is unlikely. I don't see why this should actually be a significant extra cost though and education and encouragement may be the most important things. Maybe produce some guidance notes for local authorities to help them?

    6. That's an interesting one. I have no idea whose these responsibilities are, but it's important. The situation on other rights of way is clear and it should be clear on rivers too.

    7. Do we really not have this already?

    I think that it's unfortunate that we have come to use the term "access" to mean "permission to paddle" (which in the majority of cases we don't need), when what's really needed are the things you identified to make it easier to get on and off the water. An "access agreement" should only cover the use of private land for getting on and off the water, but that's not what this term means in its common use. Do we need some different terminology to make this clearer? How about an "ingress arrangement"? Or maybe we just need to reclaim the word "access"!

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    Still amazed by a "how is that possible in a developed country???? " I would love to paddle there and meet somebody pointing a finger to me and telling me to get out of the water. Oh yeah..... he would see me getting of the water quite fast to show how we solve stupid things in a 3rd world "manner"....
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    Over developed some would say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Sadly it looks as if British Canoeing has capitulated, they have edited all their Access Campaign pages and the http://www.riversaccess.org/ website is inactive.
    British Canoeing tell me there was a technical problem with the site which has now been resolved. It works for me.
    Keith

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    No comment on the legal challenge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    British Canoeing tell me there was a technical problem with the site which has now been resolved. It works for me.
    Good to see it back up and running, I do not have a copy of all the pages from prior to this action but it looks to me working from memory as if the wording has been carefully edited by a legal expert just to soften it enough to avoid trouble. Canoe England are vulnerable to this sort of action because the Access Campaign is in house, if it was run under the protection of a separate limited company they would both protect themselves and be able to fund raise for a fighting fund dedicated for this purpose. This is what the Anglers have done with Fish Legal, they raised the funds and built up a war chest before starting the action.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  41. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Good to see it back up and running, I do not have a copy of all the pages from prior to this action

    If you reference the way back machine link http://web.archive.org/web/201409130...ersaccess.org/ I posted earlier in the thread you can see the historical content of the site at various times across the years to directly compare old and new.

    but it looks to me working from memory as if the wording has been carefully edited by a legal expert just to soften it enough to avoid trouble. Canoe England are vulnerable to this sort of action because the Access Campaign is in house, if it was run under the protection of a separate limited company they would both protect themselves and be able to fund raise for a fighting fund dedicated for this purpose. This is what the Anglers have done with Fish Legal, they raised the funds and built up a war chest before starting the action.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  42. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    British Canoeing tell me there was a technical problem with the site which has now been resolved. It works for me.
    This is a matter of regret. It looks like British Canoeing are behaving exactly as expected. They have restarted a watered down version of their website, thus continuing the masquerade that they have an access campaign and thereby occupying the space that should be occupied by a real campaign.

    All that is left is for them to issue the 'official' PR communication assuring their members of their passionate commitment to the access cause.
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  43. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwing View Post
    If you reference the way back machine link http://web.archive.org/web/201409130...ersaccess.org/ I posted earlier in the thread you can see the historical content of the site at various times across the years to directly compare old and new.
    Thanks for the reminder, I did look at the site but it only seems to have saved the front page. Its their choice anyway presumably they have taken the steps they feel are necessary. They may have decided that as the timing a nature of this battle was chosen by the Anglers they would frustrate them by side stepping it.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  44. #104

    Default

    This link has been posted on the UK rivers guide website, does anyone know anything about it?


    http://www.buydomains.com/lander/riv...ffic_type=tdfs

    Ken

  45. #105
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    That's riveraccess, not riversaccess

  46. #106

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    Thanks Adrian, sorry for a misleading post.
    Ken

  47. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Canoe England are vulnerable to this sort of action because the Access Campaign is in house, if it was run under the protection of a separate limited company they would both protect themselves and be able to fund raise for a fighting fund dedicated for this purpose.
    So who are RAFA? The web site is very slick, but it's all very anonymous, with no contact details which makes it feel a bit shady. If it was a member organisation would people join?

  48. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    So who are RAFA? The web site is very slick, but it's all very anonymous, with no contact details which makes it feel a bit shady. If it was a member organisation would people join?
    It is not in the least bit shady, it is run by hard working guys who give their time and I guess money to producing and maintaining the site. It is understandable that they do not want to stick their heads above the parapet and I think we should respect their wish to keep a low profile.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  49. #109

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    It's obviously up to them what they do, but I feel that they would have more credibility if it was a bit more open and transparent.

  50. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    It's obviously up to them what they do, but I feel that they would have more credibility if it was a bit more open and transparent.
    A company limited by guarantee has a great deal of credibility being registered at Companies House and being governed by company law.

    That's pretty transparent.

  51. #111

    Default Threatened Legal Action by Angling Trust

    Yet a web site with no contact details doesn't. I'm not picking a fight, just giving my impressions from looking at the site.

  52. #112

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    Some more thoughts...

    What is RAFA actually? Is it just an information web site, or is it a campaigning organisation? Does it represent anyone other than the people who set it up?

    As a slick web site run by an anonymous and uncontactable group of canoeists it is only going to have limited clout. If it could transform into a membership organisation with a clear mandate it would be much stronger. I'd pay a few quid to join.

  53. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    Some more thoughts...

    As a slick web site run by an anonymous and uncontactable group
    "John K" who is this person? a bit of pot calling kettle I think.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  54. #114

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    I'm just a bloke on a forum offering some hopefully constructive suggestions. Do you have any better ideas? Whoever you are anyway!

  55. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    I'm just a bloke on a forum offering some hopefully constructive suggestions. Do you have any better ideas? Whoever you are anyway!
    RAFA have a contact page if you wish to register as a supporter, I was not aware of this page until today, so thanks for prodding me into looking for it. I have registered today as a supporter, maybe others will do the same.

    http://www.riveraccessforall.co.uk/what_can_i_do.php
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  56. #116

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    I've done that too, but it's not really a contact page though is it?

  57. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    I'm just a bloke on a forum offering some hopefully constructive suggestions. Do you have any better ideas? Whoever you are anyway!
    John,
    There is an excess of blokes on this forum offering "some hopefully constructive suggestions". Who are these suggestions to? Some unknown person who is going to actually do something? We have suggestions coming out of our ears. What we need are people who want to do something. Maybe the RAFA guys could tell you here what help they need... you sound like someone who would be only too willing to help, given some guidance...
    Last edited by dougdew99; 20th-December-2014 at 12:15 PM.
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  58. #118

    Default Threatened Legal Action by Angling Trust

    Maybe if we knew who they are or how to contact them it would be a good start!

    I think what they've done so far Is excellent by the way, and it would be good to see RAFA fulfil its obvious potential.

  59. #119

    Default

    There are two access related communities on Facebook... Waters of Wales and The Campaign for River Access. No one could consider being a meaningful campaign these days without a strong Social Media presence. The Campaign for River Access got 400+ members very quickly... yet to see them actually doing anything... WoW has a strong Facebook presence and may lead to something active.
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  60. #120
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    Just to clarify, RAFA is not on FB.

    They are a group of ordinary canoeists who have formed a company limited by guarantee to gain recognition that there is, and always has been, a public right of navigation on our rivers.

    They are not on FB as some FB page just become argument points for various parties.

    Menu links for all sections of the site can be found on the front page. (Quite easily).

    Whether from the menu icon at the top left of the page.
    The content slider half way down the home page or the footer information.

    http://www.riveraccessforall.co.uk/what_can_i_do.php

    There is a join the group section on this page...

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