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Thread: The plans have arrived !

  1. #1
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    Default The plans have arrived !

    Well the plans have arrived for my intended prospector..
    I'll no doubt be making numerous posts in the future when I come to particular problems but initially, before I do anything is there anything all you experts ( don't be modest) would tell me as 'golden rules' before I start.
    In particular, before I buy the ply, given it'll mostly be used with 2 people and occasionally with camping kit, what thickness would everyone suggest ?

    cheers
    Neil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Well the plans have arrived for my intended prospector..
    I'll no doubt be making numerous posts in the future when I come to particular problems but initially, before I do anything is there anything all you experts ( don't be modest) would tell me as 'golden rules' before I start.
    In particular, before I buy the ply, given it'll mostly be used with 2 people and occasionally with camping kit, what thickness would everyone suggest ?

    cheers
    Neil
    Now the fun begins.

    The thinner the ply the less weight the finished article will be. The thicker the material the more rigid it will be. You could compromise on rigidity and weight and go with 5mm ply or do as Matt25 did and have 6mm below the water line and 4mm above - at least that's what I recall he did.

    As far as the build goes take your time in marking out and as the saying goes measure twice cut once.

    Good luck. Take a look at the various build blogs around for more info. There are loads of knowledgable people on this site so you should get answers to most of your questions.

    Pete.

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    You have a good memory pete! 6mm below and 4mm on the upper panels seems to give a good compromise.

    My 'golden rules' agree with the above, take your time, measure twice cut once etc! But also, if you do stuff something up remember that the beauty of stitch and glue is that pretty much any bodge can be fixed.

    Look forward to seeing pix of the boat, one other thing: I really wish I'd taken more pictures during the construction process!

    Matt

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    Go here - read and inwardly digest - ask questions if you feel you must.

    Ignore the B.S. about CPES.

  5. #5

    Default Plans

    Wouldn't it be nice if everybody on this site who have bought plans would offer them freely when they have finished or lend them out,this would save new members the expence of buying plans others have used.I personally have no use for them has i don't build stich/tape . Most of the boats on the site are usually selway/fisher plans and are basicly the same so there must be alot out there.

  6. #6
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    Woah there cowboy!

    There are serious copyright issues here!

    Personally I was quite happy to cough up forty notes for a top notch design. Obviously copyright free designs would be a good thing though, maybe photos of the completed boat and a review of its paddling characteristics would be good?

    Matt

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1birdman View Post
    Wouldn't it be nice if everybody on this site who have bought plans would offer them freely when they have finished or lend them out,this would save new members the expence of buying plans others have used.I personally have no use for them has i don't build stich/tape . Most of the boats on the site are usually selway/fisher plans and are basicly the same so there must be alot out there.
    Good idea but....

    When I first decided to go down the self build route I enquired on this site for some plans but got zero response. It wasn't until I forked out and bought them; a Selway Fisher Raven, and read the blurb about copyright etc that I realised why. By lending out, copying etc you are depriving these companies out of cash so like Matt I was happy to put my hand in my pocket.

    That said I don't like paying full price for anything and am always looking for a bargain.

    Pete.

  8. #8

    Default Plans

    Hi,I bet u download music or watch copy dvd,s. By lending out or giving the plans away is hardly going to get u into trouble and on crime watch. What do u do with the plans when u have finished with them, surely it is better to give them to someone who can not afford or has never made a boat before plus WHE WOULD EVER KNOW?

  9. #9

    Default half price

    having built quite a few prospectors,i have never begrudged paying the half the plan price for all the canoes built after the first one (less than 20),paul fisher does it by gentlemans agreement,the emphasis being on gentleman, which he is.he is always prepared to help you if you have a problem,which in it self is worth a lot as he has also built the designs not just draughted them.so the half the plan price is also for his knowledge and experience.
    barry
    the things we do for love,paddle,paddle,then paddle some more

  10. #10

    Default Plans

    yes that is very good of him and I am sure he is very nice, but what do you do with your old plans.Surely it must be better to offer them to someone in a act of kindness than to not use them again. Why don't you try offering them on this site and see how many respond to your christion goodwill and see who is morally right. Then again they are your plans to do what you want. Hope I have not offended anyone but it seems a nice thing to do.

  11. #11

    Default plans

    if i give the plans away,how will i build the next one? ideas on a postcard please
    barry
    the things we do for love,paddle,paddle,then paddle some more

  12. #12
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    monkey_pork is offline a wind age, a wolf age - before the world goes headlong Super Moderator
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    Hmm, lets move the conversation on eh ?

    Companies like Selway make their living from selling plans, and at a fair price too I think ... and for me it's not really about being on crimewatch, it's much more about supporting a small company and keeping a few people employed in canoeing in the process.

    I don't think there are any open-source canoe plans around, but maybe there are, perhaps that's a worth a bit of exploration?

  13. #13

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    you, could use a photo copier, scanner etc i am sure someone will appreciate you kindness, but why would you want to make 1 again if you keep buying other plans.I do not think you are going to agree with me but it would be a act of kindness and think of the pleasure you will get giving something away for no gain. Try to put people before profit and you will be rewarded in other ways

  14. #14
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    monkey_pork is offline a wind age, a wolf age - before the world goes headlong Super Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1birdman View Post
    I do not think you are going to agree with me but it would be a act of kindness and think of the pleasure you will get giving something away for no gain. Try to put people before profit and you will be rewarded in other ways
    I don't think I am going to agree I'm afraid.

    The issue here is that the plans, or rather what they represent, are not actually anyone's to give away, other than the company that drafted and originally released them. (In that the copyright for them remains with the originator). Much like software or films on DVD, you can use the end product, this after all is what you are actually buying, but the underlying code, or the film content remains the property of the originator, not the person who has bought the license to use it.

    If you use Microsoft Word to draft up a leaflet, then the leaflet is yours - but you can't say that same about the code that was used to build the application, that you then used to draft the leaflet.

    In the same way if you build a canoe, then sell it, or give it away, that's your business, but the 'plans', that is to say the design, is still 'owned' by the company that drafted the plan.

    This is about putting people before profit - in this case it's the small number of people in the little companies that do the research and draft the plans ...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkey_pork View Post

    In the same way if you build a canoe, then sell it, or give it away, that's your business, but the 'plans', that is to say the design, is still 'owned' by the company that drafted the plan.

    ..
    MP. Don't forget the part where if you buy a set of plans it only entitles you to built one canoe.

    There are some free canoe plans on the internet if you look.

    mickT
    It'll be right, trust me, I'm a Yorkshireman.



    ::>>> I'd rather be lucky, than good.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1birdman View Post
    Hi,I bet u download music or watch copy dvd,s. By lending out or giving the plans away is hardly going to get u into trouble and on crime watch. What do u do with the plans when u have finished with them, surely it is better to give them to someone who can not afford or has never made a boat before plus WHE WOULD EVER KNOW?
    Ere No and indeed No. WHE would certainly know....whoever he is?
    What you can have for free on this site is knowledge, ideas and information, and plenty of it. Oh and advice you may get some of that too.
    If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.
    Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away" --Henry David Thoreau

  17. #17
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    Blimey..! I only said the plans had arrived.. look what I've started..
    For my part I'm happy paying the price as added into the total cost of the boat it's still a bargain way to get on the water.
    The thing I'm most comfortable with is , having bought the plans, I can, if I wish pester Paul Fisher legitimately with problems and questions when ever I want. I factored this into the equation before I parted with my money.
    This facility would not be available if I'd got a set of pirate plans.

    And cheers Woodman for answering something I was wondering about..
    Having not even bought the wood for my first I was wondering how I get to 'authorise' the construction of my second....

  18. #18

    Default Plans

    What kind and understanding replies,if my wife buys a knitting pattern can she only make1 jumper and not give the plans away, OF COURSE SHE CAN. If you buy plans you can do what you want with them.Tha point I was making some young people and on low income can not afford to buy plans,there was a young lad on here a few weeks ago and some of the replies must have put him off due to the expence. If you do not want to give your plans away that is fine but a lot of people would appreciate them.Just think of the happiness you will be given someone and the feeling of joy you will get.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1birdman View Post
    If you buy plans you can do what you want with them.
    No you cannot. By buying the plans you are entering into a legal contract. A contract with terms and conditions. A condition of the seller is that you can only make one canoe from the plan. If you breach that condition you will be liable for the costs of your breach. If the seller has the proof that 100 canoes have been made from plans you passed on, even if you only passed them onto one person who subsequently copied them you would be legally liable for the lost income from these 100 canoes.

    My makes and designs wedding dresses but she cannot make and sell any wedding dresses from the dress patterns you buy in shops as they have a condition attached withholding permission for the pattern being used to make dresses for sale. Not sure of the situation with knitting patterns though

    So let me be absolutely clear. It is illegal to copy plans that have been bought with a limitation on their use. even the use of "free" plans may be subject to conditions.

    And the moral argument is equally flawed. The person who cannot afford the full price of plans may only be in financial straights because they have been fraudulently done out of royalties they were due for something they designed.
    John

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1birdman View Post
    Tha point I was making some young people and on low income can not afford to buy plans,there was a young lad on here a few weeks ago and some of the replies must have put him off due to the expence. Just think of the happiness you will be given someone and the feeling of joy you will get
    I am not sure what's worse with that argument the assumption that someone on a low income has only the option of criminality or the fact we are expected to derive pleasure from assisting in that? I have worked with numerous people on low incomes who get by quite nicely in life without the need to steal, be that plans, music or anything else. Should that young person buy a set of plans and want some assistance, knowledge or encouragement with it's construction I am sure members of this site will be only too willing to step up and help.

    Nigel

    PS well done with the plans, did they come with free can of worms?
    If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.
    Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away" --Henry David Thoreau

  21. #21

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    Interesting thread.

    Now this isn't likely to affect me as I'm unlikely to ever contemplate building my own boat (havn't got the patience!) but how do you know the quality of the plans before you buy them?

    With an actual boat you can see it beforehand before parting with your hard earned cash, but with plans you could be getting any old rubbish.

    Theres nothing stopping me for instance setting up a website selling "canoe plans" and taking peoples cash, and then emailing them a pdf of something drawn up on the back of a fag packet!

    So how did you know you weren't being ripped off?

    Roly.


  22. #22
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    for these particular plans, of this particular boat, from this particular supplier it took me about 5 minutes research on the web ( this site included) to know the plans would be spot on and the rest would be down to me.

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