Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 61 to 89 of 89

Thread: Canoe - Rudder & Tiller Ideas

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
    Posts
    280

    Default

    I mis-stated a detail above--"envision the GUDGEON at the very tip of the light'

    Below is a very quick sketch of what a nacelle (fairing) might look like if installed parallel to the waterline of your canoe, and serving to extend the lower gudgeon rearward. I have made something roughly similar to glue onto a fiberglass canoe. The nacelle becomes a structural part, transferring side loads from the gudgeon to the skin of the canoe. If bonded to the canoe it also helps with vertical loads.

    The lower part of the sketch illustrates just one way to make the nacelle, by stacking up sheets of scrap fiberglass in 'bread and butter' style. Such fiberglass can be found in many places once you start looking: old cafeteria trays, bathtubs and showers, old ex-military equipment cases, old boat hulls, etc. The trick is to find some flat stuff you can stack up to an inch or two in thickness, with epoxy. After fitting it to the canoe, you can shape the exterior as dramatically as you like.


  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cavenagh View Post
    Steamerpoint,

    I've been looking at your images of the old rudder setup. Three ideas:

    1. The rudder head is very far from the water. That puts a lot more side leverage on the blade and may have hastened its cracking.
    In this photo, it would not seem that close to the waterline:


  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
    Posts
    280

    Default

    Correct. And close to the water is good because it reduces the lever arm working on the blade.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Washington State, USA, shores of Puget Sound
    Posts
    503

    Default

    "...the idea of making a lighter, more attractive version of what I currently have does look quite likely."

    No, Chris! No, don't jump! Stay with us, son. We'll talk you down. origami is good therapy.

    Now, you are an engineer, for goodness sake. You have a staff here, working on a solution. I think the nacelles are sexy, and they would be the envy of all your mates at the next outing. Plus, I have a guy in Canada that might have something for you as well - awaiting closeup pics. You might have to drill, though, but up high.

    The excellent pic of you sailing shows the boat trimmed low at the stern (you spoke of that earlier). Thus the stock is actually higher above the actual waterline than it looks.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
    Posts
    280

    Default

    Chris, when I looked at your little model it reminded me of a set of aluminum gudgeons I made last summer. The photo is of the first rough prototype. I did away with the riveted end fitting and put a filler block inside instead. They work and don't look bad. About 5 inches long.

    (I have to get off line now.)


  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    No, I mean looking at the water on my rudder as the canoe is moving, the water is just an inch or two from touching my rudder stock, so most of the rudder is actually in the water! Look at the photos on the previous page in this thread.

    Nacelle sounds like a lot of work for little or no gain if I'm honest. I was suggesting drilling a hole through the back of another transom (Made from aluminium) through the stern of the canoe to add greater stiffness. Indicated by a red line in this photo below.



    Adding a Nacelle that low, means drilling a hole in the stern of the canoe BELOW the waterline, which comes with risks and then lots of fiberglass work. Also worth noting is that this plastic is very hard to glue anything to. Normal epoxy resin won't adhere to it and only special glues like G-Flex will if you run a blowtorch over the plastic first which changes the properties of the plastic.

    Sorry guys, a Nacelle is not for me. In the future, another owner of these popular Venture Ranger canoes is going to want to attach a rudder to the stern and a reliable straight forward method needs to be found!

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
    Posts
    280

    Default

    I didn't mean the nacelle should be under water. Just close.
    Last edited by Bob Cavenagh; 27th-January-2014 at 04:11 PM.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
    Posts
    280

    Default

    I didn't mean the nacelle should be under water. Just close.

    To my eye, it seems the bottom of your current rudder head or stock is at least 8-9 inches above the static waterline, if the hull is balanced fore and aft. There is no reason the bottom of the head/stock can't get wet as long as it doesn't add drag. Here is one of your previous photos. Your call of course, but I'd want it much lower.




    A strap-on fiberglass version of the Grumman fitting could also work for you, or be held with just a bolt or two. And the aluminum fittings Outnbacker mentioned are tres cool, so wait for more pictures.

    Of course it isn't necessary for the pintle angle to be absolutely 90 degrees to the water. It would just be nice to cut your current angle down somewhat.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    I just think they are challenging to fabricate Bob and no real need for one when a long bolt and outer spacer sleeve will do the same job. I guess I am just not in love with the design as much as you and others, but I'd be interested to see how they turn out if others choose to make them.

    In an ideal world, I should probably build a new rudder complete with longer stock would be a good idea.

    I think I am going to remove the paintwork on my current rudder blade to see if the crack is just in the paintwork or in the wood itself. If the blade is okay, I can easily make a new longer stock that is an additional 6-inches closer to the waterline, giving the blade more traction.

    Whichever way I go, it is clear to me that the top and bottom Pintels must be in line with each other vertically otherwise the rudder will tilt up at the bottom when swung across and put strain on the Pintels/ Gudgeons. An aluminium transom still looks favourite I feel.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    grange over sands, cumbria
    Posts
    930

    Default

    The aluminium transom will look too big and clumsy, and is just unnecessary. If you do want to mount the pivots vertically it shouldnt be a problem. Our inner plastic mounting block could be made tapered (wider at the top ) so that the holes come out of the stern parallel to the waterline, and a tapered plastic packing piece (wider at the bottom) could go on the outside between the bolt gudgeons and the canoe.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    Hi Dave, this is how I imagine you would do it.

    Essentially the bottom Pintel would be slightly longer to allow the Pintel holes to align vertically (Indicated by the dotted line) and the plastic/ nylon block inside the canoe would have holes drilled at an angle to accept the Pintels as they travel through the canoe?


  12. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    grange over sands, cumbria
    Posts
    930

    Default

    I imagine a second plastic block on the outside, say 1/4inch deep on the top, 1inch deep at the bottom. With clearence holes through the block, the pintels can bolt into the inner block, which will have threaded holes, with the two blocks clamping the hull. With this we could use our standard pintels

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    That's an interesting idea Dave and as you say, if both the inner block and outer block are tapered, it would cancel out the sloping angle of the stern.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Washington State, USA, shores of Puget Sound
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Gentlemen,
    I've been in correspondence with a fellow canoe sailor in the Vancouver BC area, and he has sent me some close up pics of his version of a bracket that might be of interest. Bob posted the links to the Picassa site featuring several photos taken at a distance. Chris, this setup does requiure drilling hoiles, but they are up high just under the gunnels. The attachment is exactly like the green wood and glass monstrosity that I made earlier, and is very strong and rigid. This is far more refined, and he uses a swing tiller.







    Last edited by OutnBacker; 28th-January-2014 at 04:04 AM.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    That looks nice, thanks for posting this. Dave's idea would still be lighter, but this is clearly another option.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Washington State, USA, shores of Puget Sound
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    That looks nice, thanks for posting this. Dave's idea would still be lighter, but this is clearly another option.
    DaveS also alludes to already having that interior backing block, too. Just thought I'd pass this along. There are at least two canoes in the Vancouver group that are sporting this setup. Those waters are wide and can get rough as a cob, so I'm sure there is no issue with durability.

    Well, off to the mines...

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
    Posts
    280

    Default

    I particularly like the wide spread between the upper and lower pintles and gudgeons, and the low pivot for the rudder blade. The blade is a nice one too, sleek but sufficient for the job. These guys run big, fully stayed sails and notable outriggers.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Washington State, USA, shores of Puget Sound
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cavenagh View Post
    I particularly like the wide spread between the upper and lower pintles and gudgeons, and the low pivot for the rudder blade. The blade is a nice one too, sleek but sufficient for the job. These guys run big, fully stayed sails and notable outriggers.
    I might make up one of these for my friend's Tripper-maran, instead of that green thing I built. Maybe I can salvage the Grumman bracket using a grinder to dig it out of the e-glass. ...probably not.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
    Posts
    280

    Default

    With one of these, could new gudgeons and pintles be far behind?

    http://www.gizmag.com/markforged-mar...printer/30642/

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cavenagh View Post
    With one of these, could new gudgeons and pintles be far behind?

    http://www.gizmag.com/markforged-mar...printer/30642/
    Or a whole canoe even!

  21. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Washington State, USA, shores of Puget Sound
    Posts
    503

    Default

    heh, heh, heh.... and I'm looking at a nice used Grumman on C-List right now...

  22. #82
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Cape Town South Africa
    Posts
    76

    Default



    This I copied from somewhere... I forget where but it was pretty simple to construct. Just bent pieces of 316 3mm stainless steel. One piece drilled and bent for pintles and another two welded on and bent to conform to the hull and bolted on. stiff strong and quite light. creates a usefull flat area to mount the retaining clip to stop the rudder from popping off...

    The rudder itself is made from burmese teak and ash for the blade. I would like to make a longer blade at some stage. The tiller is made from an old fishing rod with some teak for a handle and universal mount.

  23. #83
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    montreal, canada
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Hello I am new here. This looks like a wonderful and interesting board. Congratulations on it. As you can see, I am responding to quote an old thread. I did a search on the internet on gluing just that: a wood cheek to an aluminum rudder. I am not sure exactly how to go about this so I posted here. I would really appreciate any advice or suggestions. I bought a bought rudder ( came with a boat I bought) and the other day I ran over it in the garage. Not too good. It does have those wooden cheeks that Bob Cavenagh was speaking about. I wondered what the purpose of it was, but as he says, it gives "lift". I am not sure what that means but I imagine it is good.

    So, I am now thinking about how to glue it back together and also glue some wood to another aluminum rudder I have and was seeking advice.

    First of all, the rudder is a little bent and I am afraid to straighten it out, as it might break. Should I put some pressure on it?

    From what I gather from reading this thread, I will have to put some epoxy on the bare aluminum blade and then sand it while still wet. Is that right? And that is so that it does not get the equivalent of aluminum rust in the future?

    On the new rudder I am applying wood to, I have been thinking of just taking a piece of mahogony that i have, doing a table saw cut down the center, fit it to the aluminum, epoxy it, grind the wood down into shape. Is this the best way?
    thanks joe
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cavenagh View Post
    So--fatten it up with some glued on profiled cheeks.

  24. #84
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Welcome to the site, Joe.
    it gives "lift". I am not sure what that means but I imagine it is good.
    The ideal cross section shape for rudders and centreplates/leeboards is an aerofoil. Unless you're sailing straight downwind, the wind is trying to push the boat sideways and foil section produces a force the pushes it back a bit, ie, "lift". It also helps keep the flow smooth around a rudder blade and stop it stalling.
    the rudder is a little bent and I am afraid to straighten it out
    Tricky. Aluminium (as we in the UK call aluminum) work hardens, ie, the bent bit is now stiffer but more brittle, so it's difficult to get it straight and you might crack it. I think heat would help make it bend with less force and less risk, but I don't know how hot. How much is it bent?
    I will have to put some epoxy on the bare aluminum blade and then sand it while still wet
    Glueing anything to metal is difficult. Bare aluminium forms a layer of oxide on the surface, and if you glue to that it comes off. So you have to clean it to bare metal with sandpaper and then paint epoxy on immediately, before it oxidises. Then you could sprinkle sand into the wet epoxy to give a key to the glue layer. Alternatively you could clamp the wooden cheeks on immediately. I'd clamp the wood on as a flat sheet and shape it later.

  25. #85
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    montreal, canada
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Thanks for the response, Chris.

    1. The bent blade. It isn't bent too much. I had thought of heat but didn't know if that would be better or worse. I have it on an angle and clamped to my bench at the moment. It seems to be straightening it a little, without too much stress. we will see.

    2. Gluing the wood to the aluminum ( or since you are helping me we will call it aluminium) I think it is written the British way in French, too, so I can even use it over here..

    I have two blades. The one I initially wrote about still has some of the broken wood on it and I will have to connect the rest. The second blade is a paddling rudder for a kayak, which I hope to make a little bigger for sailing. Do you think that I would be better to just out a cut down the middle of it with a table saw and then fit the ridder on? Or, would I be better with two separate pieces which I attach, one on each side?

    I am not sure that I understand completely your last paragraph about gluing. In using the word "alternatively" you seem to be referring to two opposing ways of doing the job. but, even if I clamped the two wooden cheeks on and shaped it later, I would still use the same process, no? That is sandpapering the aluminum, painting the epoxy on immediatly and then putting sand for grip? the same process whether you glue seperate wooden cheeks or not?

    Regarding the sand, I am having trouble visualising this. It seems naively, at least, that when you put sand it creates a space between the aluminum and the wood, which could then be the cause of the bond failing.

    Once again, thanks and all help is appreciated.
    joe


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_B View Post
    Welcome to the site, Joe.
    The ideal cross section shape for rudders and centreplates/leeboards is an aerofoil. Unless you're sailing straight downwind, the wind is trying to push the boat sideways and foil section produces a force the pushes it back a bit, ie, "lift". It also helps keep the flow smooth around a rudder blade and stop it stalling.
    Tricky. Aluminium (as we in the UK call aluminum) work hardens, ie, the bent bit is now stiffer but more brittle, so it's difficult to get it straight and you might crack it. I think heat would help make it bend with less force and less risk, but I don't know how hot. How much is it bent?
    Glueing anything to metal is difficult. Bare aluminium forms a layer of oxide on the surface, and if you glue to that it comes off. So you have to clean it to bare metal with sandpaper and then paint epoxy on immediately, before it oxidises. Then you could sprinkle sand into the wet epoxy to give a key to the glue layer. Alternatively you could clamp the wooden cheeks on immediately. I'd clamp the wood on as a flat sheet and shape it later.

  26. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Washington State, USA, shores of Puget Sound
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Hello Gouthro,
    I haven't posted here in a long while, but your post popped up in my in-box. So, this is what I'd probably do: Assuming you can straighten that blade. I would forget the wood sandwich and go to a marine supply store and buy a slab of that thick plastic board they usually stock. It comes in various thicknesses. It's for cutting boards and hatch covers, etc. Not that expensive for a small project. A piece of 1/4 inch will do. Even 3/8 would do, giving you enough thickness to be able to get a good profile after sanding to shape.

    Trace the outline of the blade onto the two halves. Cut the two halves to the outline of the blade, leaving 1/2 inch of waste to be shaped down.

    Now abrade, gouge, score, sand with 60 grit by hand, the entire surface of the face that will be glued to the aluminum. Do the same to the blade. Make it very rough.

    Apply your epoxy to the blade and clamp gently, so as not to cause adverse pressure drift as it tightens. Let it cure.

    After it has cured, drill lots of 3/8 inch holes over the entire face of the rudder lamination. I'll leave the artistic spacing to you. Countersink the holes generously on both sides.

    Tape the holes on one side and fill with epoxy (thickened preferred) until flush to the surface.

    You now have a durable riveted rudder that you can file, sand or power shape to the profile of a trout viewed from above.

    I've owned two small skiffs that had this exact setup.

  27. #87
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    607

    Default

    I am not sure that I understand completely your last paragraph about gluing. In using the word "alternatively" you seem to be referring to two opposing ways of doing the job. but, even if I clamped the two wooden cheeks on and shaped it later, I would still use the same process, no? That is sandpapering the aluminum, painting the epoxy on immediatly and then putting sand for grip? the same process whether you glue separate wooden cheeks or not?
    Sorry, I combined two ideas in the same paragraph. What I meant was:

    (a) Either sprinkle sand on the wet epoxy to give a key for later, or forget the sand and use that initial epoxy as the glue for the wood, clamping the wood (or plastic) onto the metal. I would go for direct immediate fixing of the wood in your situation, the sand idea is better when the subsequent glueing is time consuming to set up. I mentioned the sand because it was in the original description you referenced, and I agree that it will widen the joint unnecessarily.

    (b) Either shape the cheeks first then glue them or glue first then shape. I'd glue first, as it gives you parallel faces to clamp onto and an easier way to judge the symmetry when shaping.

    I may not have understood your plan for using the table saw, but I think it's better to have a flat face to glue to; it's good to have the grain open but maybe a saw cut would be too rough?

    If you are using a paddling rudder for sailing, are you using the original paddling rudder stock or a sailing stock? The forces on a sailing rudder are much greater and a bigger blade will put much more leverage on the stock.

  28. #88
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    montreal, canada
    Posts
    6

    Default

    I am getting to be really sorry I ran over that rudder! I am not too great at doing these things but i will give it a try. As I understand it, these are the steps:
    1. Sand aluminum and wood with 60 grit sandpaper. Make it quite rough.
    2. Put the epoxy on the aluminum before it oxodises.
    3. fairly lightly clamp the wood to the metal.
    4. shape wood somewhat before and refine it afterwards.

    Although the suggestion to use plastic and create a kind of rivet system seems good, I think I will go for the simpler approach and see if it works, first. I will use the wood because I have some nice pieces of acajou, what is that, mahogony already.

    Am I right on all of this?

    I have tried to post pictures here but it asks for an url and I am not sure how to arrange that. But, that would clear some of the questions up I think, especially about the size of the second rudder I want to add to. It is a folbot rudder made for paddling.
    thanks Joe

  29. #89
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Steps 1 and 2 look fine.
    3 and 4 - I would clamp as tight as I could, provided the pressure was uniform. Best way to do that is to use a thick piece of wood (say, 2") to spread the load. So don't shape the wood at all, and make a big sandwich of 2" wood as load spreader, acajou, epoxy, aluminium, epoxy, acajou, 2" wood, and clamp it all as tight as you can. Then do all the shaping when the epoxy has cured.

    Pictures - you need to have them on the web somewhere, such as Flickr, then link to them. The software for this site doesn't currently have the ability to store pictures, but it can display them if they are stored on another server.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •