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Thread: Derbyshire Derwent Canoe Trail

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    Default Derbyshire Derwent Canoe Trail

    My next project is the Derbyshire Derwent Canoe Trail. For the record this did not come from Canoe England and I have not informed them yet.

    This is about 50 miles of river that will always have sufficient capacity due to the minimum discharge requirement for the Ladybower Dam. It runs from Bamford to the Trent with at least two Dukes in the way. At the moment it is just a glint in my eye but I have been building my partnerships even though I don't have to tick boxes on a funding form. I will begin asserting on Monday. If Canoe England, as an organisation representing a minority of recreational paddlers, have anything positive to contribute they are welcome to contact me. If they attempt some pathetic spoiling action as they tried in Dovedale, they will fail and make themselves look even more rediculous. They will also discover just how gentle I have been with them up until now.

    Ok, now I have got the mess off the sole of my shoe, is there anyone out there who has any local knowledge on this river? I have never paddled it but the satalite pictures look good.

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    Keep up the good work !

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    Chatsworth have always been very open with their parkland, the public have free access all year. So you may find less resistance from them than other sections. If I recall correctly there are fences across the river at each end of the park to keep the deer in. Good luck.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  4. #4

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    Good luck with the guide. I have produced one for myself and friends with all the get ons and grid references etc.. I had a meeting with the BCU access guys a few years back now about taking over the role of area advisor but never bothered. They said that they would not endorse the canoe trail guide I was making, although they had no problem with me publishing it myself. I was told that there had to be genuine, undisputed access for CE to publish the guide. Things may have changed since but I've gone more down the line of just paddling for myself and leaving the politics to others. If I can be of any assistance or if you'd like my list of grid refs (if I can find it) you're welcome. Pete

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    Nice one CaverPete. I'll send you a PM with contact details.

    Anyone else got any info?

    I've started asserting the PRN today, the two big estates and some fishing clubs.

    CE do not like anything they did not think of themselves. They are the responsible governing body. Meglamania plus ineptitude must be a recipe for something.

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    You have email.

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    I assume you have this info, taken from the UK Rivers Guide Milford to Darley Abbey section.

    ACCESS HASSLES: Pretty dire! Derby Library has a Charter from King John(?) dating from the 16th Century (?) declaring a navigation for all the Derbyshire Derwent. The fishermen tend not to agree, nor does the man at Milford Garden Centre.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    I assume you have this info, taken from the UK Rivers Guide Milford to Darley Abbey section.

    ACCESS HASSLES: Pretty dire! Derby Library has a Charter from King John(?) dating from the 16th Century (?) declaring a navigation for all the Derbyshire Derwent. The fishermen tend not to agree, nor does the man at Milford Garden Centre.
    Thanks for the info. I have not looked at UK Rivers Guide yet. There is only one of me.

    Do you know which fishing clubs? Most of them up there have no or out of date contact details.

    I have started asserting the PRN today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    Derby Library has a Charter from King John(?) dating from the 16th Century (?) declaring a navigation for all the Derbyshire Derwent.
    The Charter was from King John in 1204 according to the Access Map. The only indication we have on the access situation is this report. If anyone has different information please report it.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    The Charter was from King John in 1204 according to the Access Map. The only indication we have on the access situation is this report. If anyone has different information please report it.
    I'm not sure of the legality of the King granting already existing rights by way of a city charter. It looks like a money making scam over access like we have recently seen in Wales. Anyway this was corrected in 1211 by the civil contract of Magna Carta. These provisions became clauses 16 and 23 in the statute of Magna Carta in 1297.

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    The charter didn't claim to grant new navigation rights - it referred to the river as navigable from "ancient times".
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    The charter didn't claim to grant new navigation rights - it referred to the river as navigable from "ancient times".
    Yes as an historical document it affirms the existence of the PRN from time immemorable but I am sure King John wanted money for giving them what they had already got. Plus ca change.

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    I paddled from the bottom of Ladybower Dam to the Bridge in Hathersage about 5 years ago. It was very shallow in places.

    Rob

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    As to fishing clubs there are several different clubs just between Darley Bridge and Matlock Bath, one of whom (Matlock Angling club) have put up a sign at Darley Bridge stating no canoeing/launching etc etc this sign is on a pole which is over 2m high, therefore it needs planning permission, it hasn't, therefore it is unauthorised and I and a lot of other folk are ignoring it! They are threatening to fence off this access site but nothing has happened yet......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Three Coats View Post
    ...have put up a sign at Darley Bridge stating no canoeing/launching etc etc this sign is on a pole which is over 2m high, therefore it needs planning permission, it hasn't....
    has anyone complained to the council about the lack of planning permission?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angut View Post
    Do you know which fishing clubs? Most of them up there have no or out of date contact details.
    Sorry I don't know about fishing clubs in the area, is it worth contacting the local Canoe Clubs as they must know which Angling Clubs they have problems with. I believe the main clubs are http://www.midlandcanoeclub.com/a/ and http://canoematlock.co.uk/
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Myself and a number of friends have just been informed that our unofficial but perfectly workable access to a number of rivers in the area, lasting a number of years, is now finished. Thanks Andy Biddulph. As far as I can tell, because no one is using the Dove as they are not at all happy with the case you have made on 'their' behalf and not confident that the what you have reported is true, we put the number of people who have canoed in the area because of you, in the negative. I've long since thought this isn't about canoeing for you. You had your pride dented a number of times by the mistakes you made in your 'claim' against Burton Mutual. This is all about getting your own back, and you don't care who is pulled down with you. There are a few on here who offer your unflinching support, but most think, like me, you are in it to produce a legacy. You know what? No one cares.

    These rivers do not become open because Andy Biddulph claims they are. As the exclusive right is in possession, it is up to someone to present to a writ to challenge that.
    Last edited by Robbo11; 4th-September-2013 at 01:31 PM.

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    As the exclusive right is in possession, it is up to someone to present to a writ to challenge that.

    Disagree completely. All the evidence, both legal and historical puts the onus on the contrary.

    Your private agreement has ended. So what? If it's a PRN what was the need for a private access agreement? Such agreements made by others are causing issues from the Dee to the Wye and Usk. If the people you have made an agreement with are unable to understand that the agreement is between you and them, and only you and them, then that is a problem for you and then, nobody else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    Myself and a number of friends have just been informed that our unofficial but perfectly workable access to a number of rivers in the area, lasting a number of years, is now finished.
    This forum has been over the evidence for a public right of navigation on all rivers again and again. There have been umpteen references to the ruling by Justice Lightman that PRN can only be removed by legislation or the exercise of statutory powers. If you choose to agree that your access to the rivers can be removed any other way then you are establishing your own personal voluntary "non access" agreement.

    Don't be surprised if others choose not to enter into this agreement.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    no one is using the Dove
    They are obviously following the advice given in my river guide concerning water levels. There are not many small rivers with adequate water at the moment. I notice the Usk was down to 3cm in patches.

    As to the rest, well, fishermen are given to confabulations about everything. Is there a gene for it?

  21. #21

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    Robbo,
    Can you give us the background to this? Who 'informed' you that your right of access has been rescinded? What gave them that power? Why are you submitting to their claim to have such a right? Would it not be preferable to assert your rights rather than submitting to such nonsense?

    As you know, your abuse of Andy warrants the removal of your post, under the rules of this forum. I am not going to remove it for the time being, because it illustrates how our cause can be unknowingly undermined by fellow paddlers, but would you please moderate your tone in any further communication? We have a long period where people have been treating one another with respect. I want this to continue.

    Thank you.
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


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    In a previous thread Robbo11 has admitted that he's not even a paddler he's a fisherman, so how his access has been removed for not paddling beats me......... if you look through a list of his previous posts you won't find many on non access issues....don't be sucked in by his fifth column activity he's just stirring things up
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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    Robbo11

    In 1932 these men believed that access to the countryside should be for all not just a selected few, they were jailed for their efforts. I am sure they had no intention of leaving a legacy, they just fought for what they thought was right. I am sure they upset a few people who had private arrangements at the time, but who now would argue that their fight was wrong!

    Without their stand we would not now have the CROW act.

    Bernard (Benny) Rothman, aged 20
    John Anderson, aged 21
    Julius (Jud) Clyne, aged 23
    Arthur Walter (Tona) Gillett, aged 19
    David Nussbaum, aged 19

    Question:- Do you think the right to roam in the CROW act is a good thing or a bad thing?
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Keep rattling those cages Andy !

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    I'm with you Andy.
    Sam

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    I'd appreciate any ifo you have on the Derwent please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnarrad View Post
    I'd appreciate any ifo you have on the Derwent please.
    The river runs from Ladybower to Borrowash. You will upset everyone who uses this river, and did so BC (Before Caffyn), if you canoe in the fishing season, between May and July. They seem quite relaxed about canoeing outside of this window. It all comes down to whether you want the aggro or whether you can live with this arrangement. Seems reasonable to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    It all comes down to whether you want the aggro or whether you can live with this arrangement. Seems reasonable to me.
    So this is a reasonable arrangement is it, you get the river to yourselves whenever you want it and threaten "aggro" to anyone who disagrees, I would say that is illegal threatening behaviour myself.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  29. #29

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    Thank you very much, just the answer I was after.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnarrad View Post
    Thank you very much, just the answer I was after.
    Have fun. Live and let live.

  31. #31

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    The legal test for reasonableness in negligence, adopted by the courts for all branches of reasonableness, is Blyth. It's all about back seats on omnibuses in SW4 and the agreement of 9 out of 10 people.

    Four things;

    1) Such an arrangement mentioned above will pass as reasonable
    2) You will be the 1/10
    3) This is more about a principle to you than what is practical
    4) I'm bored with the whole argument and am more interested in finding solutions so that we can all enjoy the rivers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    The legal test for reasonableness in negligence, adopted by the courts for all branches of reasonableness, is Blyth. It's all about back seats on omnibuses in SW4 and the agreement of 9 out of 10 people.

    Four things;

    1) Such an arrangement mentioned above will pass as reasonable
    2) You will be the 1/10
    3) This is more about a principle to you than what is practical
    4) I'm bored with the whole argument and am more interested in finding solutions so that we can all enjoy the rivers

    1) Only in your opinion, which only has the same weight as my opinion.
    2) I think 5/5 is more likely.
    3) Correct on principal, practical to both sides not just one.
    4) Provided your solutions are fair to both sides, go for it.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

  33. #33

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    Just found this:http://www.caffynonrivers.co.uk/_res...nce_a_pron.pdf
    Basically, paddle where you fancy, if i'm reading it right?

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnarrad View Post
    Just found this:http://www.caffynonrivers.co.uk/_res...nce_a_pron.pdf
    Basically, paddle where you fancy, if i'm reading it right?
    Hi dnarrad.

    Who's a clever boy! Do what you want, when you want but be responsible for your own actions.

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    For those who may feel intimidated at paddling the section of the Derwent that passes through the Chatsworth Estate it may help to know the terms under which the estate is managed. The house and 1,822 acres of parkland is under the control of the Chatsworth House Trust, considerable tax reliefs are obtained by running the estate as a charity and in return they have to allow public access. The link below is to the 2014 report and accounts, I have take an extract from them to outline some of the aims of the trust.

    Strategies and activities for achieving objectives

    The charity holds a lease of Chatsworth House and its essential contents, with approximately 1,822 acres of land including the garden, park and woodland surrounding the House.
    The Council have implemented the following activities to help achieve the objectives:
     Opening the House and gardens at Chatsworth every day from mid March to early January, keeping much of the park open every day of the year.  Holding various events and exhibitions displaying collections of art, sculpture and other historic artefacts open to the general public.  Offering educational programmes for school visits and self-led activities at the Farmyard linked to key elements of the school curriculum.  Holding a popular annual Country Fair.  Keeping the Park and Stand Wood open all year round for free public use.  Holding international horse trials and other sporting events.  Allowing use of grounds and buildings for other charity activities.  Generate income for the purchase of works of art for the public benefit.
    http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk...141231_E_C.PDF
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudman View Post
    For those who may feel intimidated at paddling the section of the Derwent that passes through the Chatsworth Estate it may help to know the terms under which the estate is managed. The house and 1,822 acres of parkland is under the control of the Chatsworth House Trust, considerable tax reliefs are obtained by running the estate as a charity and in return they have to allow public access. The link below is to the 2014 report and accounts, I have take an extract from them to outline some of the aims of the trust.



    http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk...141231_E_C.PDF
    I can categorically state that beyond any doubt the Derwent Fishery is not open to the public. This means that a licence is required to fish and to boat on the river. You we see the grounds security guards patrolling the river banks telling people to remove boats and leisure craft from the water. Don't be guided by this fool. He won't be with you when you are confronted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    I can categorically state that beyond any doubt the Derwent Fishery is not open to the public. This means that a licence is required to fish and to boat on the river. You we see the grounds security guards patrolling the river banks telling people to remove boats and leisure craft from the water. Don't be guided by this fool. He won't be with you when you are confronted.
    The need for a fishing licence has no bearing on this discussion, maybe you would like to back up your statement that a licence is required for boats with a few details like who has the legal right to issue them. you may also like to look through the details of the charities aims and obligations and find where it says that public access excludes the river. I can't find any but with your "superior" legal mind maybe you can.
    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
    Grp Cpt Sir Douglas Bader CBE,DSO,DFC,FRAeS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo11 View Post
    I can categorically state that beyond any doubt ............
    We believe the evidence of ancient navigation rights on all rivers capable of being navigated is absolutely overwhelming. Sadly, the possibility of confrontation is always with us.
    Last edited by KeithD; 9th-February-2016 at 11:06 AM.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnarrad View Post
    Basically, paddle where you fancy, if i'm reading it right?
    Not quite. Caffyn's research is invaluable, and his conclusions apply to MOST waterways.... but it doesn't have the same bearing where a court has explicitly extinguished any right to navigate - as on the Yorkshire Derwent, where we see the downside of clarification of the law!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    Not quite. Caffyn's research is invaluable, and his conclusions apply to MOST waterways.... but it doesn't have the same bearing where a court has explicitly extinguished any right to navigate - as on the Yorkshire Derwent, where we see the downside of clarification of the law!
    A public right of navigation can only be extinguished by Parliament or via powers specifically delegated by parliament. Courts do not have this authority so they can not extinguish a public right of navigation. See http://www.caffynonrivers.co.uk/_res...nce_a_pron.pdf
    Keith

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