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Thread: Advice sought on Repair of a Tyne Prefect folding canoe

  1. #1
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    Default Advice sought on Repair of a Tyne Prefect folding canoe

    Hi,


    I've just acquired one of these lovely things. I think the hull (rubber on canvas according to the brochure in this post here) needs replacing,




    ... though the canvas deck looks to be in good condition.


    Some of the brass/copper fittings on the frame also seem to be corroded and in need of tlc--though perhaps someone here will know whether in fact there is some treatment that will restore what may simply be surface corrosion. (One screw broke as I tried to unscrew it, and I noticed at least one other missing, so can anyone recommend where I would go to find replacement brass/copper screws?)



    Because the deck looks to be in good condition, I'm tempted to try skinning the frame using Tom Yost's methods, but keeping the canvas deck.

    (Someone did that here on a different Tyne, but without keeping the deck. I think I could do so, perhaps by sewing the canvas deck to strips of PVC that could then be glued to the pvc hull.)

    An alternative would be to try to get Wayland Kayaks to sew a new hypalon hull onto the existing deck. This would cost something over 400 and might well mean giving up the kayak and frame for a period of weeks or months. I'm expecting the home-spun pvc replacement might come to substantially less (under 200 not counting the value of my time) and would have the advantage of giving some satisfaction and meaning I should be in a better position to repair when needed. (Or to try the same method on my brother's Hammer Seewolf, which looks like it may need some tlc soon.)

    Any thoughts and advice welcome.
    Ian

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    Ian , have you thought of getting canvas and waterproofing it with a silicon sealant spray ? (far nicer working with canvas than pvc imo )

    I found Atwools most helpful and efficient in delivery (when I bought PVC ! earlier this year ) http://www.attwoollsmanufacturing.co...canvas-fabric/

    A post somewhere on SOTP (a tent maker ) had canvas from http://www.whaleys-bradford.ltd.uk/fabrics

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    I'm not sure I would use silicone, because of suburban rumors that it makes other adhesives fail to work in future repairs. But I imagine the maker(s) offer suggestions.

    Two products that are useful for spot repairs are Aquaseal and Seamgrip. Both are polyurethanes. Aquaseal is thicker, has more body, while Seamgrip is more able to soak into fabrics. If you want to reseal small areas of canvas where the factory coating has come off, these products may help. They remain perpetually flexible.

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    What a great project!
    For the brass fittings. take them off if you can, overnight soak in vinegar or coke, then metal polish or if you're not to worried about shininess, just use wire wool.(or just metal polish)
    For the brass screws, I think you are local to Cambridge? Try Mackays. I'd be very surprised if they didn't have what you needed.
    For the canvas, as a temporary repair, get some 'Thompsons roof sealant' (B&Q I think - although if you are Cambridge, I can let you have half a can to try.) It is a rubbery type paint which I used to waterproof the canvas on a coracle. It is flexible so you could paint the inside, let it dry, then fit the skin and do the outside. A disadvantage is that it is black so unless you want a complete black hull, it will look odd.
    I have a copy of Percy Blandfords book about skin on frame kayaks - I think there are instructions for a folder in there, so there will be useful information for you about repairs to the stern. I'll have a look later.

    Sam

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    Dear All,
    I knew I'd find some enthusiasts here! Thanks for your replies and ideas and sorry about the delay replying; I've been away from internet for ten days. Sam, you remember right, I'm local, so I'll give Mackays a go for screws, and vinegar a go for fittings. (I've also got a shed that needs a new roof, so perhaps I'll try some roof sealant for both projects!)

    My received wisdom (from reading around the internet, so happy to be corrected) is that the usual sealants for canvas work well on non-folding boats. On folding boats rubber coatings were used before the synthetic rubbers like hypalon were developed, but from what I've read applying these involves fairly nasty toxic solvents so they are (were) best applied in factories. I'd be interested to hear Percy Blandford's advice. What does he use for his folders?

    Tom Yost seems to have developed a wonderful method for dealing with pvc using a (no doubt toxic!) glue called HH-66 (see the links in my original posting). I'm tempted to give this a go as it looks simple enough that even a do-it-yourself ignoramus like me should be able to manage. PVC has a long history of use with folding boats. (I've an Ally canoe that uses pvc to good effect.)

    Andre, thanks for the suggestions for suppliers.
    Will post more as I've more news.
    All the best,
    Ian

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    I'll pop into work, maybe later today and scan the relevant pages. If you PM me with an email address I'll send them to you. It seems he advises PVC or proofed canvas but comments that a laminate of rubber/canvas/ rubber/ canvas/ rubber is often used on folders despite being expensive as 'light rubberised fabrics have not proved durable for touring skins'. Sam

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    Beware of vinegar and brass. Long immersion can leach the zinc leaving a nasty friable alternative to a working screw.

    Bronze screws do not suffer this way - but spendier.

    http://www.seaware.co.uk/Marine/Fast...order=1&page=5
    This post may vanish at any moment.

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    Thanks for the advice, Doug; and for the link. I'll have a look for bronze. I'm not sure whether the fittings and screws I have are bronze or brass (or copper?), but am happy to replace lost ones with better. (Or am I asking for trouble from a bimetallic corrosion effect if I don't manage to get the exact same metal?)
    Sam, I've pm'd you my email address. Much obliged.

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    I cant help but thing someone who knows about restoring vintage aircraft might be able to help. Old dope and canvas wings must be simialr to a canvas canoe??

    Flexane is a painatable urethane might be worth researching?

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    Hi idc I also have a tyne it is a double called the sprint, I have the same problem as you. The bottom of mine was much worse than yours, in the end I removed what was left of the rubber. I ended up painting it with a can of silver paint I found in the shed I have been to sea in it several times with Andre and only ever get about a mug full of water inside. The deck skin has about 4 patches on it. I have owned it about 2 years, and have had 2 new canvas bags made for it. Re the brass mine looks the same as yours, seeing as it is hidden when together I will leave it as is. All the wood on mine is original and undamaged, paddles are original I am more than happy with it, and know it has only had 2 previous owners. Tony

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    Quote Originally Posted by backwoodsman View Post
    I cant help but thing someone who knows about restoring vintage aircraft might be able to help. Old dope and canvas wings must be simialr to a canvas canoe??

    Flexane is a painatable urethane might be worth researching?
    That's an interesting thought, backwoodsman. The British Imperial War Museum Duxford is down the road from us here in Cambridge. I might pop by one weekend and see whether they have anyone who can advise. Good thinking!

    Tony, I must try and join you for a paddle some time. It would be great to see how you repaired yours and to learn a few tricks. (North) Kent is only about an hour from here (when the traffic is ok). It's just a matter of finding some spare time. Let me know if you are ever up in Essex, Suffolk or Cambridge.

    How expensive was it to get canvas bags made? I might be needing a couple of those at some point ...
    Thanks again for your replies.
    Ian

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    idc posted in this thread http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...710#post532710

    the skin on the Prefect is peeling terribly and either needs all the old silver scraping off and some new flexible coating painting on (suggestions welcome for something that will work without compromising the ability to fold), or else a new skin sewing/gluing together. I've actually bought the materials for the latter, but need to find the time now to actually put it together.

    Also looking for suggestions for a flexible paint.

    Got Woodisgood's folder and need to do some repairs (split the skin at the rear,under the stem -about six inches -will use stormsure and fabric for this. )


    In post 10 above Woodisgood used a silver paint.

    To strengthen the hull fabric I may use flexible contact glue and polyester fabric (extra kingsize flat sheet ) -worked with a dinghy cover -may work here.

    Will report back once experiments are done.(don't want hull failure 2 miles offshore! )
    Last edited by andre; 22nd-May-2014 at 01:01 AM.

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    Thanks, Andre. Is Woodisgood's silver paint repair on your boat holding up well on the folds? If so, I wonder if Woodisgood can remember the brand or type of paint that he used.

    On my old Klepper T9 (rubber canvas hull) I patched the worst cracking of the skin along the fold lines with hypalon strips and a two part hypalon cement. (A nasty toxic process using solvents and sandpaper to prep the surfaces; I should probably have used a proper respirator and would do so if I ever have to do the job again.) I then used stormsure/aquasure to seal up the edges and fill in the odd nick in the rubber. I have been very satisfied with the longevity of the hypalon strips/cement, which I think are strong and which blend in well to the silver hull (I think they were light grey strips). I've tried applying patches on the Prefect (from the repair strips that came with it), but once in the water the bubbling of the material simply spread--I think I have to accept that the hull material has simply reached end of life, though the backing cloth beneath the rubber and silver coating seems ok. Hence my wondering about whether to try sealing it with something else.

    Anyway, I have now bought the materials to have a go at reskinning it, so when I have some spare time I intend to give that a go. But if a good sealant could be found, I'd probably have a go at resealing the old skin as well.
    Keep us posted with how your repairs go and I'll do the same as I get round to them.
    All the best,
    Ian

    PS I recently read about someone using Sikaflex 291. That may be worth thinking about.
    Last edited by idc; 22nd-May-2014 at 01:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idc View Post

    PS I recently read about someone using Sikaflex 291. That may be worth thinking about.
    I will have a look at that - may even have a cartridge gun tube of the stuff lying around. (some of these ''elastic ''glues not so elastic -but that Swedish paddler seems ok with sika 291) Had a look at the data sheet -not resistant to alcohol ,so let your whiskey or meths leak !


    http://www.adhesive.com/type-contact-adhesive

    In the right hand column ,this site says contact adhesives ok for dry suits and runbber boats..

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    This guy on the folding kayaks forum (post 7 ) has used sika thinned with turps successfully (and gives detail) and in post 8 ,this other guy has used white spirit and slicon sealant successfully




    http://foldingkayaks.org/phpBB/viewt...hp?f=36&t=1921

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    Thanks for the research, Andre. Sounds promising.
    Ian

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    Quote Originally Posted by idc View Post
    Thanks, Andre. Is Woodisgood's silver paint repair on your boat holding up well on the folds? If so, I wonder if Woodisgood can remember the brand or type of paint that he used.


    Ian,

    Spoke with Tony Woodisgood today.

    The paint is Rustins Aluminium Exterior paint and the skin was primed with ordinary exterior undercoat.

    Does not appear to be pealing,but I am going to seal the whole hull again ,and possibly recover with a thin polycotton sheet.

    (Hull seam split under stem on paddle from Hampton Wednesday 10 days ago.Skin nice and dry after hanging in my shed ,but will have to wait for a dry day to put the Tyne together to effect skin repairs (or pack everything out my shed ! )
    Last edited by KeithD; 4th-June-2014 at 04:53 PM. Reason: fix quote

  18. #18
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    Dear All involved in this thread (this seems to have been active quite a while ago.);
    I have recently acquired a two man folding sailing Tyne kayak. just like the Prefect mine has a perishing skin. Rubber perishes over time and the coating on mine is behaving according to type. It has taken a while to find this forum and in the mean time I have been doing some research of my own.
    it would be very interesting to know of the results of any repairs made in response to this thread.
    As I would prefer to repair rather than replace the skin (I love old things) i have been researching repair methods and have found scant information. I have searched for canvas waterproofing and have decided to test three methods.
    The three waterproofing treatments are:-

    1.
    Flexithane Hypalon paint
    This is a flexible polyurethane paint intended for the restoration of Hypalon rigid inflatable boats.
    It is available from Polymarine of Colwyn Bay.
    It is recommended by the manufacturer that this is left to set for four weeks before folding

    2.
    Backwoods woterproofing

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    I do not know if you have removed the broken brass screw or screws but in case you have not I shall offer the following:
    If a screw breaks off below the surface (It always does) then to fit a new screw requires the removal of the existing screw. using a drill corded or cordless use a 2.5mm drill bit and drill a ring of holes perpendicular to the surface and around the screw tight up to it. Next, carefully (breaking the drill off in a hole would only add insult to injury) drill at an angle in the existing holes so as to join the holes Do this all round facing at the same angle relative to the axis of the screw. Now do the same again but canting the drill the other way. I would suggest canting the drill at about 20 degrees to the vertical. Do not bend the drill bit in use as this will snap the bit. now with gentle leverage running the drill work around the screw to leave a crater around the screw. now if the screw is not already flopping awound it should be possible to get a grip on the mortal remains of the aged fastening and persuade it to loose its grip.
    should you be sceptical about this procedure I would state that I specialise in the renovation of sash windows and have had to do this on hundreds of occassions.
    having made the hole it can now be tidied up to a larger 10mm hole and a fluted beech dowel inserted with a good smear of polyurethane wood adhesive. I use Fast Grab which is fast but not as fast as the five minutes claimed for it. Bison P.U. Max is the ultimate for strength if you are not in a hurry. Once the dowel has set trim it flush. I use a multi tool but before I had one I used to saw them off and then plane flush with a block plane. You could use a really sharp chisel after sawing if you do not have a block plane.
    Now re-drill and put in a new screw.
    I usually buy brass screws from Toolstation but if you want anything more esoteric then Clerkenwell Screws can usually help at a price.
    I hope that this is of use.

  20. #20
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    Hi Malcolm,
    Thanks very much for your input. I haven't come across Flexithane Hypalon Paint, so I'd be very interested to hear how it works for you. I think I may have seen the Tyne sailing canoe on ebay a few weeks ago, if that is the one you bought. Glad to hear it went to someone who intends to get it back into good working order.

    I still haven't fixed the original skin on my Tyne Prefect. In the end I made a new one by gluing pvc canvas using the Yost method (see Yostworks.org for more on this). This worked pretty well and I've been doing a lot of paddling of this boat as it packs into a single backpack that fits better in the car (an estate) than my two pack Klepper (the long bag doesn't fit in the boot and has to be fitted into a passenger seat or strapped to the roof).

    I'm still interested to fix up the original skin. Do let us know how you get on. If I can't repair the rubber, my plan is to try sewing the original canvas deck to strips of pvc and then gluing this deck on to a hull made from pvc using the old hull for a pattern. I just haven't found time for this yet!

    If you haven't found foldingkayaks.org yet (I suspect you will have if you've been googling for repairs to rubber skinned kayaks), you might enjoy some of the stuff there on folding kayaks. There are certainly some fans of old folding kayaks/canoes who would be very interested to hear how the Flexithane works. Most of the posters are in North America, so Tyne canoes are not well known there.

    Anyway, good luck with the repair and tell us how it works out.
    All the best,
    Ian
    Last edited by idc; 29th-October-2015 at 09:00 PM. Reason: mistake

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    Hi Malcolm I have owned a Tyne two man folder for a couple of years, not a sailer but it is in excellent condition and was made in 1967. It has one small patch on the hull and a small canvas one on the deck which I glued on after stitching the tear, it was only about 1 1/2" long. It is complete with seat cushions and padded back rests original paddles, seats folding trolley etc. I owned a previous one and was given some original hull material of which I still have. It would be useful for patching depending on how much you need. I have used some on the inside of the hull to strengthen the areas where the frames sit. What I have would be good for the hull or the fore and aft edges which seem to wear more than the rest, as per photos on here. If anyone wants any for patching let me know. rgds Tony

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    Dear Tony,
    thank you very much for the offer though all the canvas is intact it is just the proofing that is spalling and thus a brush applied proofer or paste is probably best suited. Thank you for the offer though. I have never yet paddled a folding kayak as this mine patently not watertight yet. I understand that one has to be rather more careful with a folder and should enter it whilst bouyant nad not push off from shingle etc. Have you ever suffered tears whilst paddling and what action did you take?
    I have pre-emptively bought Stormsure emergency patches for short term use should the need arise.
    Regards,
    Malcolm

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    Dear Ian,
    thank you for the reply. I have bought some polyurethane reinforced canvas to test should repair of the existing prove impractical. i have indeed found the folding kayaks forum but for reasons that I can not fathom I have been unable to register despite several attempts. Thank you also for the reference to Tom Yost. I shall have a look at that.
    Regards,
    Malcolm

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    Malcolm ,

    I have used Sticks like Sh** to paint over a duck tape covered 10cm x 40 cm hole in my mirror dinghy as a temporary repair until scarfing.Used for two summers and was not only waterproof ,but on removal I found it had cured as a flexible rubber like sheet ,rather than as a rigid piece. So Sika or Sticks like should work. as a paintable flexible proofing.

    I have proofed a rebuilt frame tent roof -standard light weight poly cotton used for bed sheets etc with a flexible bathroom silicon sealant diluted 1 to 2 with white sprit -totally waterproof.

    Not tried this ,but the interwebs suggest a mix of beeswax and paraffin wax as proofing '
    Last edited by andre; 1st-November-2015 at 02:58 AM.

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    Hi Malcolm not had any tears in mine whilst afloat would never launch mine from beach always jump in when afloat. Used it mostly in the sea off the coast here at Herne bay I have found it very stable. Andre and I went out in a force 3 from Hampton last year with waves breaking over my bow, most enjoyable. I believe the stability is down to the low centre of gravity, although mine is the sprint double I have always paddled it solo. I move the forward seat back further back, plus move number 3 frame further along canoe this keeps it rigid across the coamings which has been removed when seat back was taken away. Hope this makes sense as it works perfectly well in practice, I have always been amazed at how well it all fits together I think they were very well made all those years ago, mine looks like it will last another 48 years as this is the age of mine. rgds Tony

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    Dear Andre and Tony,
    Thank you both for the advice. I notice that amongst the bag of goodies with my clearly much loved kayak was a tube of rubber solution and waterproof canvas in case. Methinks that the rubber solution with the pre-decimal price tag may just be past its best by now. I should offer it to the Robert Opie collection.
    The idea of using silicone thinned and applied with a brush I have seen elsewhere. Clear silicone certainly would not spoil the colour scheme too much. Working in the building trade as I do I have some experience of silicone adhesion being hit and miss. On a clean surface it sticks like a terrier to a rabbit but if there is contamination it may refuse. I suppose that when thinned and applied to a porous or semi absorbent surface that it really ought to penetrate. How is the durability of the repair? Silicone is one of the options that I am already exploring but in a different format. Being pastier when thinned from a mastic tube would certainly help to overcome the porous nature of fabric.
    The Tyne's really do look splendid. I have fallen rather in love with mine but I always feel a greater affinity for wood than plastic being in wood trades myself. Wood is so much easier to repair too.
    I must admit to a howling tyro's error with nomenclature. When I referred to skegs I meant leeboards. Whoops. Blush. Sorry. Any way the leeboards are still more like breadboards.
    On youtube there are a lot of videos of sailing kayaks all of which it seems are extolling the joys of skimming the waves whilst none show you how. Curses, and none show and old rig like mine. Lots of g.r.p. and a few Greenlanders.
    I have made the home brew beeswax / turpentine/ boiled linseed oil mixture now and blow me does it ever smell like the tin of Nikwax leather dressing that I only just finished this year. Nikwax's current leather dressing is like that horrid pulpy mess left by a nearly finished bar of soap in the dish. (Eugh). I noticed that on the canvas kayak site there are a number of recollections of using canvas kayaks and one American contributor stated that he used to just apply kerosene / paraffin wax mix to his wood and canvas kayak. This did have to be re-applied periodically. So much to think about. Thank you again.
    Regards,
    Malcolm

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    I am very much looking forward to hearing how you get on with your repairs, Malcolm. Regarding foldingkayaks.org not admitting you, it does seem as though the board owner deals with spam by only admitting people after he's vetted their posts. I'm inferring this from the fact that occasionally multiple posts from new members will appear all at once, implying to my mind that he has only just got round to going through a backlog of these after a period of days or perhaps weeks. I wonder if that might explain why you've not been able to register. Some sites (and foldingkayaks might be one of them--I joined five or six years ago when things seemed slacker perhaps because the spam problem wasn't so bad at that time) have become more cagey about new members since various hacks and spamming problems became worse.

    I hope they let you in soon. It would be nice to have more UK (and European!) members on the forum.

    Re the Tynes being splendid, I am inclined to agree.
    All the best,
    Ian
    PS Let me know if you all manage a folding Tyne canoe meet down in Kent one of these days. I might try and join you! (Work and family allowing.)

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    Dear Ian,
    Thank you for your reply. There is one other thing missing from my kayak. Paddles. By some strange quirk of fate, when I bought my anonymous g.r.p. kayak it was supplied second hand with a wooden paddle which I see is or at least appears to be by Tyne. Well blow me. What are the chances. Well having one as a pattern that I shall go the whole hog and make some. Tuppence ha'penny in material, I already have some 1/32" birch ply and laminating with West System marine epoxy should be straightforward enough and as for the shafts a few router jigs will be required but then I should be able to run out a few. The only tricky part might be sourcing the nesting brass tubes at the joint.
    I have photographed the mystery fittings from my Tyne and attempted to paste them into a reply but was unable to fathom how to insert them as this site seems to want to include only web pictures whilst mine are on the hard drive at present. If you have any ideas on how I could post these that would help. I am rather better at woodwork than I.T.
    Folding kayaks were a boon in the past prior to mass motoring and in the days of railway luggage vans as one could start and finish at different places provided they had a station. I have moved my Tyne in two bags single handed (It is a two man) but would not want to do this unaided for long. This would be easier (in some ways) than arranging vehicles at both ends of a run. I saw an old photo of kayaks and canoeists gathering for (I believe) the Devizes to Westminster run. Someone had a plywood single kayak strapped to the top of an Austin seven. We are so lucky these days.
    Regards,
    Malcolm

  29. #29
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    Dear All,
    thank you for the advice. I have commenced preparations for paddle manufacture having spent last weekend making mould forms for the glue lamination of curved plywood paddle blades. I would have finished these were it not for the time taken to march for climate change on Sunday. I have now run my waterproofing tests and there is a clear winner.
    Let me run you through the losers first. All the waterproofing tests were carried out on undyed medium weight canvas. This was not inherently waterproof and if held up to the light tiny pinholes could be seen.

    1.
    Hypalon paint.
    This had a high solvent content and very low viscocity and ran through the canvas and even a newspaper underneath. Once dry it had not closed any pores and was tested by pushing into a colander and filling with water. It was of course abysmal.

    2.
    Beeswax paste.
    A waterproofing mixture found on youtube. One pound of beeswax melted and mixed with half a pound of turpentine and half a pound of linseed oil. This closed the pores but when I put it in a colander and filled the colander with cold water it ran through at a disappointingly high rate.

    3.
    Latex rubber
    I used brushable mould making latex rubber. This was brush applied and smelled just like Copydex. It shrank slightly on drying and caused the edges of the canvas to curl. It also stuck the edge of the canvas to the newspaper I was working on.
    This closed the pores and looked promising so I fixed it to one of my softwood 150mm x 150mm x 180mm deep test frames and immersed it in a bucket of water so it replicated a 150mm (6") draught.
    It lasted less than 36 hours but did stay dry initially. it did not fail immediately as the above did.

    4.
    Fabsil Gold
    For waterproofing close weaves this is superb. It is so resistant to water that although it failed to close any pores in my test square when I put it in a colander and filled the colander with water it barely wept. i used this on the canvas spraydeck and cushions of the Tyne and can report that water runs off as from a duck's back. you can run the cushions under tap. Sadly this is not quite up to the mark for prolonged continuous immersion. I would highly recommend this for decks and spraydecks. It is essential to first clean the canvas with Fabsil universal cleaner prior to application. The Fabsil Gold is intended for boat awnings. It has a high level of solvent and is of a very low viscosity and will penetrate clean through the canvas thoroughly saturating it. Lay protection on things that you do not want to apply silicone to.

    There is however a clear winner. some of you will be saying "I told you so!". You did and I thank you for it.

    5.
    Acetoxy silicone
    This is the 'last man standing'. Some acetoxy silicone was purchased from Screwfix. I dispensed some with a cartridge gun into a plastic cup and thinned it with white spirit. This was then brush applied to a canvas square of identical specification to those above. I left it for a day to dry and stapled it to one of my immersion test frames. That was on Saturday morning and at 21.30 on Tuesday night it was still as dry as the Nullabor inside.

    I have also tested two proprietary waterproof canvases that I found via eBay.
    the first was 15oz cotton canvas with a waterproof treatment. This was stapled to a frame and immersed as per the latex and silicone samples. It was immersed at 10 a.m. on Saturday 28th of November and it lasted until some time on Tuesday. it was dry on the night of Monday 30th November. On drying the canvas for a day it witnesses a waterline. The canvas below the waterline is paler than the rest. If used for a folder this would be best used on the deck and treated with Fabsil. If use dof a hull silicone would be preferable.
    Also on test and still dry is polyurethane backed canvas. This appears to be a synthetic canvas and is sold for seat covers. Well it stays watertight beautifully and is tough but feels disconcertingly thin compared to 15oz cotton canvas. I certainly trust it not to leak but whether I trust it to stand up to the rigours of an active waterborne life I am not so sure.
    With regard to Percy Blandford's books, on the strength of an earlier comment I purchased 'Build Your Own Boat' and 'Boat Building' by Percy Blandford. he is clearly one of those authors who makes one feel nigh invincible. He tells you all you really need to know with no flannel. There were sadly no instructions on folding canvas kayaks. In 'Boat Building' though there were complete instructions on constructing the PBK10 and PBK20 rigid wood and canvas kayaks. This may have started something..........

  30. #30
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    Hi Malcolm Hope your tests are going well, l agree with everyone on this site re the Tynes they are rather special, and from my experience rather well made. I think i am rather lucky to have one in such original condition Andre could hardly believe it when he saw it first time. Unfortunately due to my move i have not been out for some time, but will rectify that as soon as possible. Andre and i have been talking about a Tyne owners club, perhaps you lot could give us some feedback about how you feel about this. As idc said some of us should get together for a Kent paddle, would be a nice idea for the new year. Even if all the craft were not seaworthy we could always share, as most of them seem to be doubles. I do not have the skills to post photos on here, but will try to get Andre to put some of my Tyne on here, just to show it off. Yes Malcolm i to love old things especially wood hence my title on here, the small canoe on my avatar is one i restored a couple of years ago, and was a real head turner, if thats a word. rgds Tony

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    Dear All,
    Rather than a specific Tyne owners club we could find a berth amongst the Historic Canoe and Kayak Club could we not or just meet informally for a paddle?

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    A most comprehensive test ,Malcom.Thanks for posting.

    What brand of silicone from Screw fix ? Was it Corn Downing or some other ?

    What was the flexiblility of the silicone ?

    Enough questions.... Be good to meet up for a paddle some time... in any sort of craft - open canoe decked canoe (like the Tynes)-great controversy over names ! ,sup ,sot inflatable or kayak.

  33. #33
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    Dear Andre,
    The silicone used was Dow Corning 781 acetoxy silicone. As long as it is acetoxy silicone I do not believe that the brand would make any material difference. They all stink with the same malodour of vinegar. It is very flexible. I have just checked the samples and the silicone repair is still tinder dry as is the polyurethane backed canvas. I intend to re-treat the failed 15oz canvas with Fabsil and re-test. i am hopeful for this as the effect upon the porous canvas was a very near miss whilst the 15oz canvas has a closer weave.
    The test buckets are in my garden under a weighted tarpaulin. They are thus exposed to low temperatures in my frost pocket of a garden.
    As this stuff is designed to bu used around showers, basins etc. it must be able to work at a good range of temperatures. I have observed, working in building that silicone does not break down noticeably. It can however lose adhesion and this is my greatest concern. As it is usually applied to hard surfaces sometimes contaminated with cleaning products I would surmise that such is a much more demanding task than adhesion to a rougher surface such as canvas which offers much more purchase.I would love to post my results on Folding Kayaks .org but am unable to register despite many attempts.
    Regards,
    Malcolm

    Regards,
    Malcolm

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    P.S. Erratum
    The Historic Canoe and Kayak Association

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    Malcolm,
    Thank you very much for reporting the results of your tests. It has strengthened my resolve to have a go at reproofing the original Tyne Prefect skin that I have.

    I would certainly try and attend any meet up that is arranged in Kent or elsewhere--though, it is bound to depend on whether I can fit things in with family and work. As well as the HCKC, there is the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association which I've found very welcoming when I've shown up in a vintage folder. They seem to do a regular meet up here on the Great Ouse, which is a very pleasant paddle, with plenty of backwaters, and can be reached surprisingly quickly from Kent given the M11.

    But I'd be happy just to meet up for a paddle. ;-)
    All the best,
    Ian
    PS I'll try and point foldingkayaks.org here. There's been very little activity there in recent weeks.

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    Malcolm,
    I posted on foldingkayaks.org mentioning that you've done some interesting tests and that you've had trouble getting on the forum. I received an email offering to help get you on there. I've sent you a PM.
    All the best,
    Ian

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    Dear All,
    I have just noticed whilst dealing with another matter that it is now possible to obtain RIPSTOP polycotton canvas. That could be a real boon. At least for those of us that can not run to Hypalon. I found this on eBay. It seems worthy of a test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodisgood View Post
    Hi Malcolm Hope your tests are going well, l agree with everyone on this site re the Tynes they are rather special, and from my experience rather well made. I think i will try to get Andre to put some of my Tyne on here, just to show it off. Yes Malcolm i to love old things especially wood hence my title on here, the small canoe on my avatar is one i restored a couple of years ago, and was a real head turner, if thats a word. rgds Tony
    A pic of tTony and his pristine Tyne here


    and Patches ,the old one here

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    Hello from Canada. I was moved to join the forum when a link from the foldingkayaks forum connected me to this thread and the photos of the two Tynes. Both boats appear to be 15' Tyne tandems, with the one configured for solo paddling. I NEVER see Tyne boats in Canada anywhere, ever. I suspect I may be the only Tyne owner in this fair land. And I love my boat. It's in beautiful shape. This spring I applied keel strips to the hull, and successfully applied narrow strips of a concrete patch material la Silaflex. I've been very happy with the results. seeing those photos is exciting for me. My boat has long-lost relatives on the other side of the pond! I'll try to post some photos of mine, but I'm usually inept at doing so on paddling forums.

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    Martin, welcome! We look forward to seeing your photos. Judging from how often Tyne kayaks show up in the North American-based foldingkayaks.org, I'd judge you are one of only a very few North Americans to own a Tyne.

    (I notice some of the photos I posted in the first post on this thread seem to have now disappeared. Apologies for that. I think ImageShack who they were hosted with, has removed all the free accounts that they used to have. But then its confusing that one of the photos is still showing up for me. I'll have to work out a new way to host images for this site.)

    Ian

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    Dear All,
    Further to my earlier tests I have just acquired a tin of chlorinated rubber. This sounds promising (but so did beeswax). I await the arrival of more canvas so that I may apply some of this and evaluate it. I am hoping that this is of a very similar formulation to the original coating, (one can but hope) such that it could form a more homogeneous repair than silicone and not preclude further adhesive repairs as silicone would. The silicone has now withstood eleven days of continuous immersion without any signs of weeping, mould or discolouration.

  42. #42
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    Dear All,
    Two coats of chlorinated rubber were applied to a medium weight canvas and immersed. In eighteen hours it had admitted water to a depth of eighteen millimetres. An abject failure. Given that this is intended for use below the waterline the results were to say the least disappointing.

    Could anyone recommend a marine paint for a PBK20? Percy Blandford is no more specific in his instructions than that. I have contacted International and Hempel and they are studiously avoiding me at present.
    I am making enquiries about what appears to be an Italian product called Gummipaint. Fingers crossed.
    Regards,
    Malcolm Tierney

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    Hi Martin glad to have another Tyne owner on board, be pleased to see photos when you can manage it. rgds Tony

  44. #44
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    Dear All,
    Further to skin repair investigations: it occurred tome recently that the clear colour of silicone will mean that the hull could look patchy. I remembered that metal powder is available for use in casting plastic materials such as polyester or polyurethane as used by model makers and sculptors. I have ordered a tin of aluminium powder from Alec Tiranti Ltd. and intend to misx some with diluted silicone and brush apply to a canvas sample for evaluation in order to establish whether:-

    A good colour match can be established.

    Sufficient strength and flexibility is retained in order to maintain adhesion, integrity and water tightness in use.

    The original sample of silicone sealant on porous canvas has now been submerged for over three weeks without a drop entering. I feel that I may have been too kind to this sample leaving it in good clean tap water and perhaps another sample should be subjected to brine and surfactants.

    Onward and upward.
    Anon.
    Malcolm

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    Very interesting. I look forward to reading the recipe for a good silver-coloured silicone solution. :-)

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    Default A bargain buy here. . .

    A bargain to be had here. Pity they aren't singles or I might have to buy them

    Sam

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    Happy new year to all Tyne owners out there. Hope more arrive in 2016. rgds Tony

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm T View Post
    Dear All,

    Could anyone recommend a marine paint for a PBK20? Percy Blandford is no more specific in his instructions than that. I have contacted International and Hempel and they are studiously avoiding me at present.
    I am making enquiries about what appears to be an Italian product called Gummipaint. Fingers crossed.
    Regards,
    Malcolm Tierney
    Not a marine paint ,but could be worth experimenting with.A similar floor paint lasted years on a mooring buoy off Hampton Beach. Could also be over painted if the grey colour does not suit.


    http://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsens...ails_container

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Not a marine paint ,but could be worth experimenting with.A similar floor paint lasted years on a mooring buoy off Hampton Beach. Could also be over painted if the grey colour does not suit.


    http://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsens...ails_container

    Dear Andre,
    Thank you for the recommendation. I have now applied two coats of Dulux Weathershield exterior gloss to the PBK20 that I have mostly built over Christmas. It is not quite complete. When using Weathershield it is important to add terebene (driers) to the paint decanted into a kettle otherwise it takes and eternity to dry. Terebene is very useful for accelerating all oil based paints but Weathershield especially. How many times have we stood back to admired our handiwork only to witness a squadron of flying insects embed them into the sticky wet paint? The faster it touch dries the better. There seems to be no trade off in terms of paint properties caused by its acceleration. Obviously don't add the terebene to the tin or the rest will set solid.
    Is the floor paint flexible and therefore a contender for use on the Tyne's?
    Although I have received the aluminium filler powder I have yet to add it to silicone due to time pressure from the PBK20. There are dire warnings on the tin of possible combustion if combined with water presumably as it is in powdered form although once bound into a silicone matrix and thus isolated from H2O it will hopefully be safe. If not then this might become the most interesting test yet.
    Anon,
    Malcolm

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm T;599642.
    Is the floor paint flexible and therefore a contender for use on the Tyne's?
    Although I have received the aluminium filler powder I have yet to add it to silicone due to time pressure from the PBK20. There are dire warnings on the tin of possible combustion if combined with water presumably as it is in powdered form although once bound into a silicone matrix and thus isolated from H2O it will hopefully be safe. If not then this might become the most interesting test yet.
    Anon,
    Malcolm
    I doubt if it is flexible enough for repeated foldings as in the Tyne. Even the paint Tony used on the old Tyne I bought from him flakes off in tiny particles . I'd use a very thin coat of paint to get a colour then proof with the thinned down flexible silicone sealant. Will be doing this in the next month or so when I repair the Tyne (Got to have it ready for Admiral's soon to be announced meet on the 7th February ! ) So will be able to report back .
    Last edited by KeithD; 6th-January-2016 at 09:20 AM. Reason: fix quote

  51. #51
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    The silicone looks a little better when dried but not as good as:

    Rust -O-Leum silver fabric paint. I have just sprayed a sample and frankly it looks the bees knees. this shall have a coat of silicone applied tomorrow Friday and the3n go on test on Saturday. I am very hopeful for this latest development. It looks really good: a good match for the Tyne hull colour. Fingers crossed. We already know that silicone is durable and truly waterproof and that it sticks like a terrier to a rabbit so the prospects are positive. for those of you on the Old Country side of 'The Pond' and that is most of the Tyne owners Rust-O-Leum fabric paint can be purchased at Homebase as I did today. It was 5 for a small aerosol. Mine covered a 600mm x 600mm square though I do not know how much further it would have stretched but as we are really only concerned with touching up then I suppose it should suffice.
    I have also purchased a can of the Italian Gummipaint for a trial and await delivery.

    Malcolm Tierney

  52. #52
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    Dear All,
    The Gummipaint has been received in pillar box red, (Its a long and enervating story) and shall be applied shortly. Mean while I would like to attest to the tenacity of Stormsure. In my recent building (Not quite complete yet) of a PBK20 i gashed the hull on my garage door. This has now been repaired with Stormsure and is very tough. The kayak has yet to be launced but when using Stormsure in the build on the canvas seams I unfortunately managed to get quite a bit on my hands. It would not come off with white spirit, industrial solvent wipes or Swarfega. I had to drive home with gloves on to avoid besmirching my car. I am still removing thick bands of Stormsure from under my finger nails as it finally loses the struggle with my shedding skin. Awesome. Just don't get it on your hands. I found the only thing which even paid lip service to removing wet Stormsure was methylated spirits. Stormsure is supplied with disposable gloves. Use them. Please.

    Malcolm Tierney

  53. #53

    Default whole hull painting

    I have a folding kayak made by my grandfather in the 40's & the rubberised canvas hull is full of perish cracks. Do you think that silicon sealant/white spirit painted over the entire hull would be a good way to revitalise it or is this likely to be only suitable to repair small areas?

    Thanks - for all your research :-)

    Alastair

  54. #54
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    Hi Rufus is it possible to post photos of the kayak Malcolm is the best one to speak to regarding canvas research.you will have to post 1 or 2 more times before you can post any photos. rgds tony

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodisgood View Post
    Hi Rufus is it possible to post photos of the kayak Malcolm is the best one to speak to regarding canvas research.you will have to post 1 or 2 more times before you can post any photos. rgds tony
    Dear Rufus,
    I am only at the research stage and as yet have not applied silicone to rubberised canvas.
    I can tell you that another member has applied silicone to rubberised canvas as a repair. Silicone certainly works on clean new canvas and is tough waterproof and durable. It has outlasted all other repairs that I have tested so far. I would advise removing any loose material from the skin prior to treatment. I have yet to do this to my own Tyne double but I anticipate trying a suede brush on it. Please see my results so far as above in this thread. The silicone sample had lasted approximately five weeks of continuous submersion the last time that I looked. That really should suffice.

    Malcolm Tierney

  56. #56
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    [
    !940's rubberised ,canvas hull full of perish cracks...... I would re skin the boat . If you want to get on the water while deciding about the re-skinning ,I would paint the hull with a 1 : 1.5 mixture of silicone (1) and white spirit (1.5 ) AFTER brushing the hull with a hard brush to get rid of any flaky bits .I would assemble the canoe before painting ,paint it with the silicone ,and use the canoe without disassembling it ,to see how the quick 'n dirty repair has worked ,then dis assemble once dry of water , reassemble the folder and see if the repair keeps water out even after folding. If you are wanting to reskin to sell ,rather for your own use ,I would suggest against that - as you would not recoup your costs if done properly .Better to sell frame as is . But.... do a quick repair and get out paddling as soon as possible!


    Three tubes of this Silicone sealant http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Adhe...e+310ml/p85399 and 1.5 litre of white sprit should get you on the water for about ten quid
    Last edited by andre; 18th-January-2016 at 05:27 PM.

  57. #57

    Default

    Wow guys thanks for the quick and informative responses! I have been reading the relevant sections of my grandfathers memoirs and it seems likely that it is actually a 1953 build as the 40s original was given away. Design based on the klepper Aerius Zweier but with a slightly modified hull shape. Its unclear from the documents whether the skin is a "7 ply printers blanket" cotton/rubber or a later 3 ply "plastic".

    i have photos of my grandfather with my father and siblings in the '50s , my father and myself in the 80s so i really need to resurrect these canoes and get out with my own kids!

    btw is everyone really located in Kent , uk? I am in Cranbrook.

    i dont want to divert this highly useful discussion on skin repairs. When i can see the canoes again and assess whether they look repairable i will report back. Thanks again.

  58. #58
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    Dear All,
    I have news of the latest tests.
    The silicone mixed with aluminium is holding up fine. The silicone applied atop fabric paint has failed. This is a shame as the fabric paint looks better. All is not lost however. Close inspection has revealed a thin application of silicone in a couple of areas so I shall make another sample and try again.
    Meanwhile the original silicone sample is still A1 as is the polyurethane backed synthetic canvas. i think that one would have to be an Olympian or an instructor to surpass the hours afloat annually that those two samples have now done.

    Malcolm Tierney
    (Saint Mary Cray, nearly in Kent)

  59. #59

    Default

    Hi Malcolm, have you tried isoflex (roofing rubber seal) in your many tests? I've just bought a pair of Tynes and the skins are starting to crack and the silver coating is flaking off like yours. The stuff is black though.
    Cheers
    Justen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrubsboy View Post
    Hi Malcolm, have you tried isoflex (roofing rubber seal) in your many tests? I've just bought a pair of Tynes and the skins are starting to crack and the silver coating is flaking off like yours. The stuff is black though.
    Cheers
    Justen
    Were these the two from Henley? If so I think you got a bargain. What with Christmas / family and new year I couldn't get down there.

    Sam

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