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Thread: Advice sought on Repair of a Tyne Prefect folding canoe

  1. #61
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    Some more discussion ,comment and advice on skinning / waterproofing an SOF boat https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...s/topics/77402

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    Hi Rufus Will you be posting photos of the folder/ Justen do you want any stringers to replace your broken ones. rgds Tony

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by samB View Post
    Were these the two from Henley? If so I think you got a bargain. What with Christmas / family and new year I couldn't get down there.

    Sam
    Hi Sam, yes these are the same ones. I'd been trying to buy them from the 16th of December but didn't manage to get them until the 2nd of Jan when the seller finally gave up with the other prospective buyers that he had given first dibs but never followed through.
    They looked better in his pics than in the flesh but are complete (a couple of damaged stringers) and the skins are intact but the silver hulls are starting to scab and flake in places. The double has a couple of holes in the canvas deck and the canvas doesn't feel like there is any strength left in it but the canvas on the single seems okay.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodisgood View Post
    Hi Rufus Will you be posting photos of the folder/ Justen do you want any stringers to replace your broken ones. rgds Tony
    Hello again Tony. Thank you, your offer is mighty generous. I need to get them assembled and find exactly which ones are crackered, one is snapped and may be salvagable but there are two where the ends have rotted off. I'm also going to measure them up and see about sourcing some pvc with a view to skinning them yost style. I'm currently preparing for a complete bathroom rip out and refurb as that was my bargaining chip with the misuss for taking on more kayak projects....

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    Dear Justen,
    I hacve not tried Isoflex roofing sealant because I had not heard of it. Whilst researching various goos to apply I did come across tanking but like roof sealing compounds these are very viscose and unfortunately black. Tynes are silver. Call me fussy but this could make a Tyne (a thing of beauty ) appear like a derelict grounded railway carriage with applied tar patches. I'd sooner drown. Maybe I am just a prima donna. I dare say it may work. I have yet to try the Gummipaint as three of my test frames and buckets are in use at present and the fourth will shortly have a second attempt at fabric paint and silicone. Gummipaint is intended for Hypalon but is more viscose than the British made Hypalon paint that I tried previously so one never knows. At some point I do actually need to apply some keel strips and waterproofing to my Tyne and use it. Everything bar the skin is in good order.
    onward and upward.
    If you have some roofing compound you could try your own test by painting a square of canvas and then lining a colander with it compound side inward then filling the colander with water and leaving it to sit and examining it periodically to see if it holds water.

    Anon.
    Malcolm Tierney

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrubsboy View Post
    Hello again Tony. Thank you, your offer is mighty generous. I need to get them assembled and find exactly which ones are crackered, one is snapped and may be salvagable but there are two where the ends have rotted off. I'm also going to measure them up and see about sourcing some pvc with a view to skinning them yost style. I'm currently preparing for a complete bathroom rip out and refurb as that was my bargaining chip with the misuss for taking on more kayak projects....

    I've got pvc from these guys . Good service and reasonable price.



    http://www.attwoollsmanufacturing.co.uk/fabrics/

  7. #67
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    Hi Justen Think you have work i moved 4 months ago and have not stopped. Have done 24 tip trips with my estate car and trailer full, plus a 6 yrd skip. Have put a bath in, in place of a shower ripped half of the kitchen out plus removed all wallpaper and carpet from every room, replaced every outside air brick, removed tower and tank from loft, it goes on and on. Your so lucky just to have a bathroom, but dont tell the wife !. rgds Tony

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    Nothing to do with me but item 331763657205 on the bay = tyne sprint, located in London.

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    Dear All,
    I have applied Veneziani Gummipaint to a sample. It is considerably more viscose than the first hypalon paint that I tried. After two coats a few pin holes were still visible when held up to the light but after three all seemed well. An initial test was carried out with the sample pressed into a colander and filled with water. Nowt issued forth so the sample has been attached to a frame and immersed. Hypalon paint is intended for the re-finishing of rigid inflatable boats so it will definitely not fail of itself; this test will determine whether it shall render canvas waterproof. Fingers crossed.

    The original silicone test piece and the polyurethane backed canvas are still watertight as is the canvas treated with silicone mixed with aluminium powder. This means that the canvas treated with silicone and the polyurethane backed canvas have now withstood nine weeks and two days of continuous immersion.

    Malcolm Tierney

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    I suppose the next question will be how well the best of these test pieces stands up to repeated folding. Thanks again for so carefully documenting all this work you're doing. It really is most interesting. Ian

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    Repeatedly re-folding the samples and re-testing after each testing would surely send me to the funny farm but I could take some of the samples off and repeatedly fold and re-fold them prior to re-attaching to the test frames is certainly a possibility.
    I am presented with the problem of endless possibilities and permutations. I have to temper my experimental ardour due to lack of space and the need to finish off other projects.
    it would be a good idea though to also test seam sealing.
    It has occurred to me that it may be possible to re=skin a boat in a similar fashion to a sofa with shaped panels pinned in place over the canoe frame, pinned, basted, (That is a sewing and not a culinary term) and stitched. If the seams could be successfully sealed then the skin could be turned inside out such that the seams were within and leaving a tidy job. This is how some sofa cushions are re-covered. Has anyone tried this?
    The trouble is that I have more ideas than life times to test them in.

    Malcolm Tierney

  12. #72

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    Can I ask a question about the rubberised canvas of the Tyne canoe? How rigid or stretchable was this material? Did it stretch just enough to contain the assembled frame or what?

    Thanks,

    Shuggy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm T View Post
    It has occurred to me that it may be possible to re=skin a boat in a similar fashion to a sofa with shaped panels pinned in place over the canoe frame, pinned, basted, (That is a sewing and not a culinary term) and stitched. If the seams could be successfully sealed then the skin could be turned inside out such that the seams were within and leaving a tidy job. This is how some sofa cushions are re-covered. Has anyone tried this?
    Malcolm Tierney
    Yes. Have a look here, Malcolm, for one example--very nicely written up.

    A slightly simpler technique for those without the sewing skills is to use Yost's glued PVC method. I tried a mixed route for recovering my Tyne Prefect, adjusting Yost's method slightly so as to sew a rebuilt canvas cockpit (my Mum's sewing skills, not mine) to strips of pvc, which I then glued the deck to the main pvc hull. Two photos here. I'm still considering doing the job again to reuse the original Tyne canvas deck on a silver, grey or white pvc hull. But reproofing the original hull might be even better, so I'm following your trials with great interest.

    All the best,
    Ian
    PS Shuggy, you'll notice a few wrinkles show on my PVC hull. On the original you wouldn't see these as the hull is made a centimetre or two short and the frame levered in to stretch the skin, whereas the (cosmetic) disadvantage of the Yost method is that you wrap the frame to glue the hull and so you never quite get that tension. It is still one of my favourite canoes though--and it is nice to be able to fix one's own boat.
    Last edited by idc; 8th-February-2016 at 07:27 AM. Reason: PS

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuggy View Post
    Can I ask a question about the rubberised canvas of the Tyne canoe? How rigid or stretchable was this material? Did it stretch just enough to contain the assembled frame or what?

    Thanks,

    Shuggy

    Shuggy,
    These things have some stretch in them, but really very little that you would notice just handling the skin. As you say, just enough to contain the frame. Maybe of the order of a centimetre or two along the full 12ft of the boat. I don't think of them as elastic, but when you press down heavily on the 'scissors' join between front and back of the frame, it levers the bow and stern into the ends of the skin and that lever creates the tension that provides the rocker and ensures a smooth fit to the skin. If you bang on the skin it is tight like a drum.
    All the best,
    Ian

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    Hi all. Without the ladder frame in the centre of our canoes no stretch would be possible, they are obviously designed this way. Probably none of ours are as tight as when new, and therefore do not glide quite as smoothly as a hard hull model. Shuggy can i assume you have a Tyne or similar, if so can you post photos you will be joining a small group of owners who love these craft, and between us have gained much experience and knowledge. The latest being Malcolms testing of several sealing products, of which im sure we all appreciate. Once finalised im sure many will use his recommendations, and end up with a watertight boat that also folds. Anyway welcome to the site. Tony

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    I'm thinking that if you used Malcolms settee panel idea and sewed PVC panels inside out on the frame, you could then take the skin off and put another line of stitching in to make the skin tighter before turning it the right way out. I think I'd then glue strips of PVC all along the outside of every joint to water proof them.

    One day I'll have a folding boat - There's a frame on ebay at present but for silly money and doesn't seem interested in (what I think) realistic offers.

    Sam

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    Dear All,
    A while ago I had to dismantle a scaffold tower in a storm as the hire period was over and the shop were sending a lorry to collect it so down the tower must come. The storm discovered the failed seam tape on my overtrousers in an embaressing fashion. I have discovered however that it is possible to buy rolls of iron on waterproof seam tape in a variety of colours and widths. It can be bought specifically for two or three layer waterproof fabrics. I must test some.
    Alternatively for seam sealing just use Stormsure.
    Than you very much for information regarding skinning. If seaming can be reliably made waterproof then skinning in several panels will obviate the need for stretching skins in order to persuade them into compound curved shapes though of course some tension will still be needed.

    Malcolm Tierney

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    Dear Sam,
    If you have any woodwork skills you could build your own folding boat to one of Percy Blandford's designs. These are available online from Clark Craft of Tonawanda in New York State so there is no need to wait for lady luck to smile on you as you can make your own. I have mail ordered plans from them and although I had to wait a week or two for them to turn up (being a limey), turn up they did. My plans were for a rigid canoe so I can not give chapter and verse on Percy Blandford's folders.

    The Veneziani Gummipaint has now successfully remained watertight for one week and four days. If it fails in the next week I shall not know as I am off for the half term break. The sample shall be examined again on my return. The Gummipaint is now one of four consistently remaining watertight.
    Polyurethane backed canvas.
    Silicone coated canvas
    Canvas coated with silicone and aluminium powder
    Gummipaint

    Malcolm Tierney

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    Hi malcolm - woodworking skills are not the problem - space is! At present the garage is home to my home built cedar canvas, stitch and glue kayak, strip built sea kayak and the pbk 20 I'm renovating at present. My next build will be a pbk51 (I think it is) canoe to join the fleet of what some people may think are too many boats. But if a folder comes up at the right price, I'll have it.
    Sam

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by idc View Post
    Shuggy,
    These things have some stretch in them, but really very little that you would notice just handling the skin. As you say, just enough to contain the frame. Maybe of the order of a centimetre or two along the full 12ft of the boat. I don't think of them as elastic, but when you press down heavily on the 'scissors' join between front and back of the frame, it levers the bow and stern into the ends of the skin and that lever creates the tension that provides the rocker and ensures a smooth fit to the skin. If you bang on the skin it is tight like a drum.
    All the best,
    Ian
    Great, thanks!

    Shuggy

  21. #81
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    Dear All,
    Veneziani Gummipaint is still watertight. It will be three weeks on Tuesday so that can be considered a success.
    Now I have returned from half term and as the PBK20 is nearly done I could start removing samples and folding them prior to re-testing them. It should be stated that they are folded onto the frames for testing. I take a 600mm square of canvas, treat it and fold then staple it onto the frame (above the waterline), so it is already folded but what we want to know is how well the treatments withstand repeated folding.

    Malcolm Tierney

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    Dear All,
    In response to a request for further testing all the test samples that have thus far proven successful have been:-
    Removed from their frames.
    The frames and samples dried.
    The samples folded and re-opened flat 20 times.
    The samples have been re-attached to their frames.
    All samples have now been immersed in salt water with added detergent.

    The samples are three repair samples;
    1. Silicone sealant
    2. Silicone sealant with aluminium powder
    3. Veneziani Gummipaint

    and one other sample of unmodified synthetic canvas with polyurethane backing.

    The cotton canvas samples have been developing mould which given that some have been continuously submerged for months in cold water outside under a tarpaulin is forgivable. We would not treat our canoes / kayaks this way. Would we?


    If and when failures occur I shall notify this site.

    Regards,
    Malcolm Tierney

  23. #83

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    Hi
    I'm new to kayaking.
    Ive just bought myself a tyne sprint 2 man Kayak, which I'm very excited about, but could really do with some
    advice with.
    After spending a lot of time cleaning and purchasing some bits like gummipaint and fabsil.
    I went to put the skin on and have found there is no way its going to fit.
    I've tried everything, split into 2 and pushed each half to very near the end.
    But the skin seems to be 150mm short.
    I would say its the original skin, silver and blue.
    Do they shrink after time?
    Look forward to hearing from anyone.
    Luke

  24. #84
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    Hi I have owned two Tyne sprints both have fitted their skins perfectly, never heard of one shrinking, are you sure you are fitting it correctly?. Can you post photos.

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    Where are you located Luke?
    Regards,
    Malcolm

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    It does require a bit of force on the lever (the 'scissor') to push the two halves fully into the ends. It might stretch the skin a little--which could have shrunk; but I doubt it could shrink anything like as much as 15cm. If its sticking you might find some talcum powder helps it slide in. You can put a bit of weight onto it ... but gently not to break anything.

  27. #87
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    Of course you could also have a go at gluing yourself a new skin. Instructions here: http://www.yostwerks.org/SkinMenu.html
    I'm not particularly handy and it worked for me ...
    I think the pvc skin is probably slightly lighter than the old rubberised canvas skin. (Though I do like the aesthetics of the original skin.)

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    Hi all,

    A very useful thread to find !

    I have just pulled my parents 1961 Tyne 15 foot double out of the loft in the hope of getting it back on the water. Unused for these last 30 years or so it cost my parents 55 in 1961 and was used in Sweden and Scotland through the 60's and 70's ! It is in great original condition but there is some minor cracking to the hull along the keel strip and where it has been folded. Also the carry bags are in poor shape. It's too good and original to want to reskin so I'm looking for any prior experience or advice on safely removing and replacing the keel strip and repairing or reinforcing the other minor areas of cracking to the hull. Eric

  29. #89
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    Dear All,
    Regarding the ongoing tests. The samples when folded showed no signs of wear or distress from folding. The folds were made in thirds horizontally then thirds vertically over the first set and finally in half horizontally so I aimed to produce more stress than we do when folding a kayak / canoe.

    Recently I have been working for a fashion designer who was working on some designs at home some of which included a plastic film applied to fabric. This I am informed is a heat applied material called Framis and is the same material as used on waterproof seams as a seam tape. Framis is usually applied in a hot press but could also be applied with a smoothing iron. This material would not be thick enough to use as a rubbing strip but may be useful as a patch repair. It is available in a range of colours.
    It seems we are starting to enjoy an embaressment of options.

    Malcolm Tierney

  30. #90
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    For rubbing strips the options are:-

    Rubber applied with vulcanising solution.
    P.V.C. applied with HH-66
    Hypalon applied with Hypalon cement.

    The last whilst the most durable nearly requires a remortgage and it would seem that to obtain a long enough length would require the purchase of enough to re-skin the hull. You may obtain some offcuts from an eBay trader if you are lucky and patient.
    I have purchased P.V.C from eBay along with a tin of HH-66 but have yet to apply this.

    Malcolm Tierney

  31. #91
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    I repaired a 1962 vintage Klepper skin some years ago with a hypalon strip, a rather poisonous process. Looking for documentation, I find I described it here and here. I seem to remember paying something over 100 for the narrow strip of hypalon plus the glue and accelerator, the toluene and the acetone. Asking for acetone or toluene at a chemist in quantities required for cleaning up hulls now seems to make you a 'person of interest' to the authorities , though there are suppliers on the internet. In any case I would heartily recommend a respirator and a well-ventilated area should you go down this route.

    The hypalon came from a marine company of some sort who sold the stuff for the repair of ribs / zodiacs. The repair is holding up well some five years later. I must get that boat out on the water again; it's been a little neglected of late as the Tyne Prefect is so light for lugging around!

    Lastly, I don't know how good your Tyne's skin is, but I initially tried patching my Tyne's skin with some repair material that the previous owner sold me with it and it rapidly became clear that the hull was delaminating and there was nothing firm enough to glue the patch to. (So that was a waste of a big tube of aquaseal!) Hopefully your's is in better shape. But that is why I ended up glueing a new pvc skin, and why if I try one of Malcolm's solutions I expect to scrape off all the loose decayed rubber from the fabric core before applying it. This will likely be a lengthy job.
    Last edited by idc; 2nd-March-2016 at 07:18 PM. Reason: feedback on how patch holding up

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    Quote Originally Posted by idc View Post
    Lastly, I don't know how good your Tyne's skin is, but I initially tried patching my Tyne's skin with some repair material that the previous owner sold me with it and it rapidly became clear that the hull was delaminating and there was nothing firm enough to glue the patch to. (So that was a waste of a big tube of aquaseal!) Hopefully your's is in better shape. But that is why I ended up glueing a new pvc skin, and why if I try one of Malcolm's solutions I expect to scrape off all the loose decayed rubber from the fabric core before applying it. This will likely be a lengthy job.
    My Tyne's hull seems to be in pretty good shape apart from the cracking along the keel strip and on a few other small areas (where folded). No sign of delaminating and the hull seems to be basically sound and solid. Cracking doesn't seem to penetrate the full depth of the hull but it does reach the fabric substrate in places. If I could remove the existing keel strip without causing further damage and replace with a new equivalent that would probably be all that's required (and the same to patch the other small affected areas).

    Any idea if the keel strip can be removed with a suitable solvent ? if so what solvent does the job without damaging the hull material and what material and adhesive to use to replace the keel strip ?

    Or I could simply try silicone sealant to treat the hull cracks and fabsil to treat the canvas deck.

  33. #93
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    If the areas either side of the cracks are sound and if you can get a strip that is wide enough to span the problem area then you could simply sand down the cracked area and glue the hypalon (or rubber) strip over the top. That is what I did with my Klepper T9. A slight increase in weight of your skin is the result. The hypalon cement seems to be pretty impressive stuff. But my T9 had been very carefully looked after by the previous owner, who religiously applied Klepper boat wax (I think, or Klepper milk, I'm not too sure of the difference) at least once a season. This must explain why the rubber was in such good shape 50 years down the line.

    My Tyne's skin was 'bubbling' (there used to be photos at the start of this thread but I'm afraid the free image hosting site that I posted them on a few years ago has stopped being free or gone under or something). The previous owner had glued a long keel strip with some glue that had gone hard, flakey and brown, and this was removed simply by pulling it off. Although I glued a new patch over the worst bits and to parts of the skin that looked smooth and good, the bubbling spread and it was clear that the rubber layer underneath the top silver skin was shot. Scraping the bubbles with a paint scraper takes things back to the fabric substrate, but its a lengthy job and leaves patches of the silver and rubber where the rubber isn't yet decayed. Still, I'd like to try one of Malcolm's solutions on this. And if that fails, I'll try ripping the seams and using the pieces as templates for a new pvc skin to be glued to the good canvas deck.

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    Very useful information here so far and much appreciated.
    So far I have my kayak fully assembled in the workshop and cleaned up after it' years in storage.
    My Tyne hull looks like it is a multi layered fabric. Does anybody know what the original silver outer layer (it seems to be bonded onto the fabric supporting layer) of the hull was made of ? On the storage bags this layer has completely failed and can be scraped off down to the fabric substrate as idc, above, describes. On the hull it is fortunately mostly in a much better state but does need some local repairs. I'd like to know what it is made of so I can patch or repair with matching or compatible material. Thanks, Eric

  35. #95

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    I think that if I scissor/talcom with another person it will go. Hopefully with out anymore damage.
    Heres a few pictures of how far out I am. ( not that interesting)
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wrxf8dhq8...-NkUJrRia?dl=0

    I spent quite a few hours sanding the bubbling silver pvc, trying to remove any peeling bit. After a long session on that, I noticed that where it joins to the deck
    Its crispy and flakey. After removing all of that, I gave it a clean with some Fabsil universal cleaner which started it peeling again.
    A bit like striping wall paper, once you start where do you stop.
    Looking back maybe a stronger mix of cleaner might have striped off just the silver layer without damaging the rubber underneath.
    I think sanding might have been a mistake in places, as I've gone through the silver and the thin canvas down to the black rubber!

    Hi Malcolm thanks for all the testing I'd really like to keep this original skin. I'm on Old st and Golden lane, Clerkenwell.

    Hi Idc after a couple of trips out in it, I think thats the way to go!

    Luke

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    Hi Luke are you sure you have the bow in the bow and the stern in the stern, they look the same but are different. It is quite different from my 1967 one, so i guess they were modified all the time. On my first Tyne, which Andre now owns i took all the silver off with a heat gun ( very carefully ) this removed all the silver but seemed to melt the rubber underneath into the canvas this i think seemed to help seal it. I only painted the hull after that with silver paint and it never ever took in more than a cup full of water. On the inside of the hull where the frames had worn into the inner layer i put soft wax, proper bees wax warmed up, this area never leaked. I also rubbed some on the worn areas where the poles had rubbed over the years i do believe all these things did help after all there is only so much canoe in the water at any one time. I never treated the canvas deck, as i have never treated the deck on my latest tyne mostly if i was out and got small waves over the bow most of it just rolled off again. I think most of the water came from the paddle drips, and me getting in with wet feet. Anyway i was quite willing to go on using it in the sea until i passed it on to Andre. Keep us posted re the fitting process rgds Tony

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukebeech View Post
    I think that if I scissor/talcom with another person it will go. Hopefully with out anymore damage.
    Luke, Mine looked the same initially and I didn't think it would go but it did fit when the hinged floor section was pushed down with care. You don't want the 2 open cross formers in your picture in place until after the floor is pushed down and bow and stern sections are in place.
    Floor first, then gunwhal rods, then the remaining rods joined with the sliding ferrules. Finally the 2 open formers and then the coaming (all this taken from a copy of the original instructions for my 15 ft double). Eric

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    Dear Eric,
    You have instructions!? Wow. Is there any way that you could scan and share them?

    Malcolm Tierney

  39. #99
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    Ian, was that 100 for one keel strip?
    I tried to obtain some Hypalon strips a while ago and found nothing long enough and ended up plumping for PVC though Hypalon would have been better.

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    Malcolm, it was a while ago (5 or 6 years?), but from memory I think it was about 90 for the hypalon keel strip for the Klepper, and I *think* I ordered one wide strip and one narrow one (possibly 10cm wide and 5cm wide, or perhaps 5 and 2.5cm, I forget). The wide one was used along the keel, the narrow strip covered folds along the chine rods. But I've been meaning to take it out for a paddle, so once I've got it down from the loft I'll refresh my memory and give you the correct dimensions. The cost of the glue & accelerator and the toluene and acetone probably brought the price to 115 or 125. Something of that order of expense for the whole repair.

    I might even manage to post a photo, if anyone can recommend a good free photo hosting site that isn't associated with google or facebook. (I just don't really like either company--I'm allergic to their idea of what is reasonable behaviour regarding privacy.)

  41. #101
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    I also would like a copy of original instructions, did not know any existed till now. rgds Tony

  42. #102
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    Default Tyne folding kayak instructions

    scanned Tyne folding kayak assembly instructions for the 15ft double, these date from 1961

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cjpg

    if anybody can save these into a suitable format and post them directly on this forum they are welcome to do so.
    Eric

  43. #103
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    Here is the text - thanks, Eric

  44. #104
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    Thank you very much Eric and Andre.
    That is illuminating.
    Now I know which items to pack in which bag.
    Did someone have a Tyne catalogue / brochure too?

    Regards,
    Malcolm Tierney

  45. #105

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    Eric and Tony, thanks very much! I've managed to get it together. Also spent 4 hours with the heat gun and scraper removing the silver.
    This is quite a nasty job but is definitely the way forward. All up it will take me about 8 hours.
    He's a couple of pics of the frame if anyone can put a date to it.
    Also one from graphic design studio, the place where I picked it up from. Nice lamp shade!

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wrxf8dhq8...-NkUJrRia?dl=0

    Luke

  46. #106
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    Luke,
    Your pictures look similar but not identical to my 1961, 15 foot, double touring, there was also a 14 foot double and a 17 foot sports double (frames for these are still available from waylandkayaks.co.uk according to their website, there are some useful pictures on their site too).

    I love the picture of the frame used as a lampshade !

    I was inspired to get out our old family Tyne kayak after seeing a picture in one of the weekend paper (possibly the Times or Telegraph) colour supplements 2 to 3 years ago. An interview with an architect in his new glamorous London (?) pad had an interior picture showing a wooden folding Kayak frame suspended as an artwork ! Made me think that even if the kayak was unusable it may have a second life as an object d'art. Fortunately the condition is better than I expected to find and I hope to get it back on the water instead.

    Eric

  47. #107
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    Dear All,
    No news is good news.
    All the samples on test have so far withstood a fortnight of continuous immersion in salt water with added detergent. Not a drop spilled.
    Malcolm Tierney

  48. #108
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    Malcolm
    Could you give me a bit more information about your silicone covered sample?

    Did you dilute it with white spirit?
    What sort of ratio?
    How did you apply it?
    Does it discolour the canvas or look patchy?

    I'm building a skin on frame canoe at present and silicone sounds like it might be ideal for what I want.

    Thanks

    Sam

  49. #109
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    Dear Sam,
    being a cautious fellow and since I bought my Tyne to allow me to take my children canoeing / kayaking I want it to be watertight. So I set out to test waterproofing methods on test pieces prior to applying them to my Tyne thingy. (It is a double but I do not know which one.) My ration was about three parts silicone to two of white spirit. It is entirely clear and does not discolour the substrate and remains very flexible. This proved to be the case through the folding tests. Other people have had success with thinned silicone. The silicone used on my test pieces was Dow Corning 791. Andre Du Preez used the one with the indelicate name.
    For my own part I intend to treat my own Tyne with Veneziani Gummipaint. My only remaining question is what to clean the brushes out with. This is not mentioned on the tin. There is information available on the net: in Italian. As my mother (age 75) has been learning Italian for a year or so I have set her a wee live project to translate and find the relevant information but don't hold your breath.

    Malcolm Tierney

  50. #110
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    Thanks for this Malcolm - looks like a trip up the road to Screwfix in the next couple of days.
    I hope your mum gets on ok with her homework!. Unless its a water based paint I now use disposable brushes except for the final coat.

    Sam

  51. #111
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    Dear All,
    A reply from Veneziani has been obtained by my dear Mother. After using Gummipaint brushes should be cleaned in acetone or Veneziani 6380 thinner.

    Malcolm Tierney

  52. #112
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    Dear All,
    Veneziani Gummipaint is now available via eBay along with 6380 thinner. Do not thin the paint for application. Use the thinner for brush cleaning only or the paint will bleed through and not fill the pores effectively.


    Malcolm Tierney

  53. #113
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    I’ve been thinking more about using thinned silicone sealantas waterproofer on canoes:
    I know that getting silicone on anything that I might wantto paint in future can be a big problem – one of my cedar canvas canoes hasblisters on the paint which I can only trace back to having used a spongeduring prep work which had previously been used with a silicone car shampoo. Irealised I had done so at the time and thought I had cleaned and sanded well enough to getrid before the final coats of paint.
    I’ve done a test piece and silicone does slightly darken thecolour but leaves an even coloured surface so that’s ok, but after a couple ofdays, after handling the sample I can feel the silicone on my hands. Would I befoolish to use this method of waterproofing? I can’t help thinking how easy itwould be to transfer the silicone from one boat to another and cause myselffuture problems.
    Does this silicone ever really dry enough to make thistransfer unlikely? Do I just need to give it more time?

    Sam

  54. #114
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    Silicone does really set and dry. Once set it will not transfer. Be careful, nay meticulous in your working so as not to transfer any to inappropriate places. Your hands will most likely be the culprit. It may pay to have a tub of 'Wonder Wipes' or Industrial Wipes' or another to hand. I applied thinned silicone with a brush.
    Silicone dries slowly. Leave it at least 24 hours to cure thoroughly. On my test piece one coat of silicone was sufficient. That was made up in December I believe and it is still watertight despite continuous immersion.

    Malcolm Tierney

  55. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by idc View Post
    Malcolm, it was a while ago (5 or 6 years?), but from memory I think it was about 90 for the hypalon keel strip for the Klepper, and I *think* I ordered one wide strip and one narrow one (possibly 10cm wide and 5cm wide, or perhaps 5 and 2.5cm, I forget). The wide one was used along the keel, the narrow strip covered folds along the chine rods. But I've been meaning to take it out for a paddle, so once I've got it down from the loft I'll refresh my memory and give you the correct dimensions. The cost of the glue & accelerator and the toluene and acetone probably brought the price to 115 or 125. Something of that order of expense for the whole repair.

    I might even manage to post a photo, if anyone can recommend a good free photo hosting site that isn't associated with google or facebook. (I just don't really like either company--I'm allergic to their idea of what is reasonable behaviour regarding privacy.)
    It looks like it was 10 cm and 5cm strips. See photos here: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/wamnc95vw...3-YkX9CGpPMuta
    You can see that there were two strips where it had been folded that had cracked sufficiently badly to need the strips, and a couple of smaller spots elsewhere to be covered with short patches. I've noticed the rubber bumpers are also coming loose in places, so I have the hull out for some more tlc today (Aquaseal will hopefully do the job, hence the photos). Other than that it is in pretty good condition for a 54 year old hull.

    I'm intending to take it down the Thames over the Easter weekend.

  56. #116
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    Tony posed a question earlier today (not on this thread ,though) , as to the weight of canvas to be used for the deck of one of his SOF boats .

    Percy Blandford ,in his instructions for skinning the PBK 10 and PBK 20 states that 15 oz canvas(509g/sq metre) should be used for both the hull and deck . for the single seater 72 inch(183 cm) canvas fits ,but for the two seater a 48 inch (120cm)width is needed . (Boat Building by Percy Blandford ; Foyles Handbooks -pub 1953 ,reprinted 1954 pages 26 ,29 and 33 )

    Atwools supplies all sorts of canvas -good service -have used them before http://www.attwoollsmanufacturing.co...canvas-fabric/

    A converter if other suppliers do not give both ounces and grams http://www.convertunits.com/from/oun...+(square+meter)

    I would go with 8 ,10 or 12 oz for the deck though and only 15 oz for the hull
    Last edited by andre; 4th-April-2016 at 03:26 PM.

  57. #117
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    Dear All,
    Repairs to the skin of My Tyne double thingy have started. I patched all the holes at the points where it had been folded and frayed with Stormsure applied with a short stiff synthetic brush supplied with that particular tube of stormsure. Unfortunately I got a bit carried away with the Stormsure and ther are some unsightly runs in places.
    Having done that the skin was rubbed down with 120 grit aluminium oxide paper then brushed, wiped with a tack cloth and finally cleaned with cotton rags an methylated spirits (wood alcohol stateside) before applying a coat of Veneziani Gummipaint.
    The worst of the runs will be attacked with a curved scalpel prior to applying a second coat of Gummipaint to the bald parts. A third and final coat will then be applied.
    Previously having applied Gummipaint I struggled and failed to completely clean Gummipaint from a brush but have now found that the residues can be removed with Rustins Brush Restorer after a good soak.

    The keel strip to my Tyne is almost completely detached.
    With my Tyne was a box of 'lasso Tape' which had been used to reinforce the skin over the line of the ribs. In the bottom of the box I found a receipt from Tyne Boats
    206 Amyand Park Road
    St. Margarets
    Twickenham
    Middlesex
    It acknowledged payment for rubber solution and a keelstrip and gave the following typwritten instruction in red ink:-

    "It is advisable to remove old paint* with very fine sandpaper,using same lightly only. Apply thin coating of solution to hull and keelstrip, working 2-3ft. at a time only,allowing solution to get tacky, i.e. 30-60 seconds."

    *From this I infer that the Tyne boats were probably finished with a brush applied flexible paint.

    This also suggests that I may re-attach the now detached keelstrip with rubber solution.

    Malcolm

  58. #118
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    Dear All,
    Rubber Solution.
    Hm.
    This seems to be an ambiguous term. I had believed this to be the goo that I use to attach patches to bicycle inner tubes with but on reflection this also applies to Copydex which is good (ish) for children to stick cut out pictures into a scrap book but not much else. Rubber solution of the velocipedal kind seems only to be sold in tubes of approximately 5gms. With a 17 foot keel strip to attach this is not going to do: neither will Copydex.
    Ibought some Pang's Vulcanising solution and Schrader's rubber cement. Both were used on a sample of inner tube but to no avail. For an internal patch on a tyre being retained ;partly be internal air pressure this may work but certainly not well enough for the keelstrip.
    I recently had to buy some shoe laces for my son and whilst in the cobblers I asked him about his contact adhesive. That should cover a large area. He had cans of approximately 10 litres. They were Svig and Marco Neobond. The problem with contact adhesive is that it does really require pressure to make an even and continuous bond and around the bow and stern where the curvature of the hull skin and in my case rubber reinforcement is tightly radiused pressing would not be an option. I think that the answer has been staring me in the face all along. (Thank you Andre Du Preez) Silicone. Whilst on the job where I discovered the failure of my over trousers I was using a combined sealant and adhesive called GB Pro. This was horrible as a sealant as it is too low in viscosity but very adhesive. This should make it ideal for attaching the keelstrip. Having bought a surfeit of masking tape I shall use some to ensure that the margins of the keelstrip are evenly adhered. This is the last job to do before floating the Tyne so fingers crossed.

    Malcolm
    Last edited by Malcolm T; 13th-June-2016 at 09:24 PM.

  59. #119
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    Looking forward to the launch, Malcolm.
    Could you be interested in a Tyne folders get-together some time? There seems to be a concentration of owners down in Kent, and there's plenty of nice water there, plus it's only about an hour's drive for me from Cambridge. That said, I'm hellishly busy for the next six weeks or so. I may raise the topic again once things have calmed down. Thank you very much for all your investigatory work on this and for documenting it so thoroughly. I expect to be following in your footsteps soon. (Again, once I've some time for working on this.)
    All the best,
    Ian

  60. #120
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    Hi Ian
    I would be interested in a meet up with all the Tyne owners, but am as you are very busy over the next few weeks/ months. If eventually a date is made i will make sure i set aside the time. I think a get together is a very good idea correspondence between owners is also a positive thing. Malcolm has been most generous in the past, and a gathering would be most enjoyable. Perhaps we could all keep this in mind, for perhaps a late summer thing and make a real good day of it. I hope the other Tyne owners respond soon.
    I did suggest a while ago about doing a Tyne register, or similar, then we would all know how many there are out there and there location. I would be willing to take this on, but of course need every ones input. Rgds Tony

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