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Thread: HELP rigging grumman sail

  1. #241
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    I feel your pain.

  2. #242
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    Thanks. I "googled" the problem and did not come up with anything. Just now I rebooted this laptop and see my images fine. Don't know...
    SB

  3. #243
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    Am I still the only one seeing my pictures here? I booted up the laptop first thing this morning and went to this site... and
    there are my pictures. I'll post a couple of the mast thwart and step to see if they come up...
    ... I see them.
    SB

    e more to see if they come up.


  4. #244
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    These two are visible. I have some suggestions but they will have to wait til I have a proper keyboard.

    Bob

  5. #245
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    Thanks, Bob. I am truly befuddled. I believe that I posted the others in exactly the same way as these two. That these two are visible is encouraging.
    SB

  6. #246
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    I'm going to try inserting the photos from post #235 of the canoe as it was when I bought it last fall.









    And here are a couple showing the initial polishing...





    From where I am the pictures appear to be inserted. If anyone can see them (or not) let me know so I'll either give up or continue re-inserting the remaining photos. Thanks and I apologize for the hassle.
    SB

  7. #247
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    I don't know anymore about the photo situation than I did before, so will let it go for now. On another subject I have a question. I'm trying to find a replacement lateen sail for this canoe. Sometime in the future I may well go to another mast and sail type (something which can be reefed), but unless something falls into my lap I think I'll use the mast I have through this summer and try to come up with a good alternative next year. I can use the tired old cotton sail I have for now, but who knows if it will hold up even for this one summer? I want to have a contingency plan in case the sail splits in a sudden gust of wind. I found a plain white sail of the right dimensions on ebay which is new and shipped for$90.00 and is made for a Super Snark or Sea Snark. It differs from my old sail in that mine attaches to the mast and boom with rope laced through grommets in the edge of the sail. The replacement has sleeves instead. I checked with the seller to be sure my mast and boom would fit and they won't since the sleeves are for a maximum of 1 and 1 eighth while my mast and sail would need at least 1 and 1 quarter diameter. If I were to fold over the sleeves and stitch them together then I could attach grommets and be good to go. It is a plan anyway. I'll keep looking, but so far I have not found a duplicate of the Grumman lateen sail.
    As recommended I recently purchased a copy of Todd Bradshaw's Canoe Rig: The Essence And The Art (great book) and fell in love with his bat sail... very cool and since it is similar to a gunter rig using a two part mast I could utilize the wooden section of the mast I have and make the rest. Sail area is 37 square feet which seems to me to be just about right for a 15 and a half foot canoe. And it can be reefed. Something to think about anyway. I've done a lot of stitching while teaching native crafts, making moccasins, mukluks, bags and all sorts of stuff, so am familiar with basic things a heavy duty sewing machine can do. Might make a nice project for next winter, but in the meantime I need an emergency plan for now. Anyone know of a source for a lateen sail to fit a Grumman mast?
    SB

  8. #248
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    I just came upon "intensity sails" who have relatively cheap sails.
    They may have sails for a Sunfish since that is such a large class of boats.
    A person who has one for a Laser said the cloth and stitching is good, but the sails are not certified to an "official" class standard - which you don't need anyway.

  9. #249
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    Hello SB,

    I am not particularly fond of the original Snark sails. Made of lightweight nylon, they were set on too-light spars and bagged excessively in high winds, but the boats were (are) kind of narrow and low and weren't much used in higher winds anyway, so everything kind of worked out. Canoes can be stiffer than the original Snark family.

    I haven't seen the newest replacements in the flesh....

    Masts are so easy to make that I'd not let using the current lateen one be a barrier. That said, you really ought to make a new mast step if you jump to a sail that is much shorter on the boom than that lateen. If you did that, the opti sail I modified in the current thread 'some sail rigs' might do you nicely for around $100.

    Alternately, I can send you a plan for a much earlier lateen of about 40 sq ft that is designed to be made of cotton, and you could make one using a good brand of cotton unbleached muslin. It uses only edge round with no broadseams. A tailor or dressmaker might sew it up if you don't want to. It is an easy sewing job with a domestic machine, but the panels SHOULD be joined with a French or flat felled seam:



    Sail edges could have grommets or be sleeved. Installing grommets on any of these sails is easy, but you really want to use good SPUR grommets and the tools to set those are usually $30-40.

    Personally, I would just sail and repair your current cotton sail into oblivion, unless it rips every time you touch it. The foot could use a bit of reinforcement. Repairs can be the same type of unbleached muslin. Enjoy it while it lasts and while you figure out exactly what really nice sail you want.

    Cotton has issues: it mildews quickly, it stretches and doesn't recover well, and ultimately it may rot. But it is easy to work with.

    Nylon was once popular for sails until Dacron came along. Balogh and some lateen makers still use it. It is bright and colorful though sun damages it, sometimes quickly. It's worst property is that it stretches, and stretches even more when wet--just the time you want it NOT to stretch. I made a crab claw/lateen out of it and it does work rather adequately, but I found it hard to control seam flatness (ie: puckering) in such soft stuff. (I bought a few yards of a half coated nylon for $1.29 a yard, nearly 5 feet wide, so my investment in the sail is trivial.)

    As far as I know, all the Grumman lateens were also nylon, but generally well made. They weren't that special. I wouldn't spend a lot of time chasing one down unless it was sold with a complete rig for a decent price.





    I plan about to post a few lateen items in that other thread.

    I read MarcUps recent post about Intensity Sails and I concur with him about those, but a Sunfish lateen is at least 75 sq feet and needs spars something like 13+ feet long, so it is perhaps too much for a 15 foot canoe.

    Here is a convenient link for folks searching for a sail to adapt:

    http://www.boat-links.com/Sails/

    My best,

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Cavenagh; 25th-April-2017 at 07:05 PM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcUp View Post
    I just came upon "intensity sails" who have relatively cheap sails.
    They may have sails for a Sunfish since that is such a large class of boats.
    A person who has one for a Laser said the cloth and stitching is good, but the sails are not certified to an "official" class standard - which you don't need anyway.
    Thanks for the tip. Took a look and it appears to be a bigger sail, so I don't think it would fit.
    SB

  11. #251
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    Bob, Once again you have given me much to consider. The most immediate takeaway is that I will follow your suggestion to use the lateen sail I have for the time being, patching it if need be. And I'm also thinking that it might be a good idea to make that cotton lateen from the plans you mentioned. Doing so would buy some time and also give me experience working with cotton and grommets with a resulting sail that works. Jumping right into a bat wing sail project first off might not be so wise a move. If the bat wing is to turn out well then I need to know what I'm doing and give it the time it deserves. I like the look of unbleached muslin cotton. Nylon I will stay away from. Dacron sounds like a good choice and I am also wondering if cotton would be easier to work with. Longevity is not so much a concern when one is 72. The sail I have and am looking to replace is 64 years old so if I were to make both a lateen and a bat wing they should last me til my 136th birthday. I suspect I'll not only be done with sailing by then, but also done with everything else as well. Ha!
    SB

  12. #252
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    Hello SB,

    I will scan and post a couple of older lateen designs in a separate thread.

    Cotton is mostly obsolete for sails save for those made as period pieces. It IS easy enough to sew with a domestic machine; the biggest challenge is keeping the panel joints straight and true. It is fine for practice work, but some things don't translate to dacron.

    Dacron is MUCH nicer to sew as it arrives crisp and straight. Panel seams can be simple overlaps and most of the common cloths have seam allowance guides. Duckworks currently sells
    Challenge 3.8 Oz. Genoa for $8 per yard, 36 inches wide--or $8 for 9 sq ft.

    Unfortunately, I can't lay my hands on a fully developed plan for a 40-45 sq ft lateen in dacron, and the best dacron sails use broadseam in addition to edge round. Easy enough to design, I just don't have one available, and I don't have time to work one up right now. There IS a lateen guide in the appendix to the MAINSAILS booklet from Sailrite, but that is a more complicated sail than is necessary. You COULD use the plans designed for cotton and make nice looking sails that work but they might not be quite optimal.

    Bob

  13. #253
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    I'm once again going to try posting some photos of Sail Canoe #2. This time I'm using Google Chrome as the browser. The other times I was using Opera. Here are photos of the fifteen and a half foot square stern of unknown manufacture as it was when I bought it last fall for $200.00. If you can see the images please let me know and I'll post the other pictures of it's transformation into a sail canoe. Thanks. SB








  14. #254
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    I see them

    Sam

  15. #255
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    Thank you, Sam. Here are some more. Polishing away the old oxidation is somewhat tedious, but in my view is worth the effort. I used an orbital buffing machine and Mother's metal polish. I also made disposable pads for the buffer from old sweatshirt material, cutting out circles a bit larger than the machine and loosely stitched around the outer edge, then drew up the stitches tight and tied it off. The white paste turns black... cut the stitching and throw it away. Paper towels rubbed over the polished area removes the rest of the black from the canoe. Then do it again. And again. And...







    Assuming these also posted successfully, then we have the answer. To post photos through Google Photos I need to be using Google Chrome at the time. I can do that. I'll post some more now.
    SB

  16. #256
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  17. #257
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    And these final pictures were taken a week ago. In another week or two when the lake has warmed up a bit more I'll take her out for a first sail.
    SB












    And that's all there is. Spring is slow coming in northern Minnesota. There are still patches of snow in the forest (with new snow forecast tonight) and the lake feels like a refrigerator with the door wide open. Patience, old bear. While spring progresses and the canoe sits I am working again on Sail Canoe #1 which I sailed last summer and had just begun polishing. That one is the 17 foot Grumman double ender. I had wanted both canoes to be tweaked and ready for water by the time of the fishing opener which comes in two weeks. They'll be ready and so will I.
    SB

  18. #258

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    Hello SB,
    I hate to spoil your day, but the images of Post #256 and #257 are invisible to me.
    regards Bob

  19. #259
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    Same here...

  20. #260
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    Sigh... well, it's back to the drawing board. I'd like to know if there's something besides Google Photo and Photobucket that actually works. I long for Picasa...
    SB

  21. #261
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    I use flickr.com - not had any problems . . . . .yet!

    Sam

  22. #262
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    Thanks Sam, I downloaded Flickr and haven't yet figured out how to use it. Also am trying Imgbb and will try posting a photo. If anyone can see this I'll be amazed...

    I see it didn't work.
    SB

  23. #263
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    Hello to all...
    After some communication with Silverbear and Bob Cavenagh, I thought I'd post a video of some improvements to the Grumman gunter sail arrangement. Some time ago I modified the very basic gunter rig to be able to reef the sail and have more control of trim by eliminating the boom sleeve. Thus, the main is now loose footed and I can achieve far better tuning in light airs as well as safety in higher winds.

    Along with those improvements, I have recently completed the installation of lazy jacks, which also serve as a topping lift. The gunter rig is an evolution of the gaff rig, and shares it's short mast. With the gunter having a short mast, there is no real practical way to install a topping lift except to run it along side the sail. At the same time, the gunter can be a handful to wrestle when lowering the sail to stow - especially in windy conditions just prior to landing. So, by installing two lines for a topping lift, the result is a lazy jack arrangement.

    In this installation, I simplified the rig to only require a static line system with no blocks. Tensioning is achieved by simply sliding a taut line hitch knot to keep the boom in its aloft position while either reefing or lowering the sail. When under way, I just slide the knot down to the boom to slacken the lines so there is no printing on the lee side of the sail.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po9C1IR5c80&t=11s
    Last edited by OutnBacker; 11th-June-2017 at 03:07 PM.

  24. #264
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    Thanks for sharing this. Along with setting up reef points this is on my list of must-do improvements to the Gunter rig this summer. So much to learn. I was not familiar with the taught line hitch knot so googled it and now I'm teaching myself this handy and useful knot. If boy scouts can learn this then so can I. I also did not know what dog ears were for attaching the lazy jack lines to the mast. These are just stainless steel rings, are they not? And they would be attached to the aluminum mast... with stainless steel eye straps, is that right? How are these lines attached to the boom... would a single dog ear suffice? I also plan to do away with the boom sleeve and leave the foot loose (and fancy free). All of these nautical terms are interesting, mate. Thank ye.
    SB

  25. #265
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    Hello SB,
    The taut line hitch is plenty strong for such light applications as this, but it's probably not a purely marine type of knot. I just use it because it works. Certain cheaper lines made with slippery materials might not hold as well. My lines are just nylon poly stuff you might keep in your camp kit. it seems grabby enough to hold friction.

    Dog ears are a term I have heard all my life to describe the mast tang fittings at the top end of the shrouds on a standing rigged mast, the bottom end terminating at the turnbuckles. They look like dog ears and hang down with a hole for the upper end of the shroud to be attached with a cable thimble or something. It's just a strip of metal bent at an angle to sort of match the angle of the shrouds.

    Sorry to confuse you because I did report that I was tying the jacklines off at the mast with a pad eye. That no longer applies and I have switched to the dog ears as they help to keep the lines separated better on either side of the sail. Plus, I already had them installed in planning for shrouds, which may be the next thing I do. I'll send a pic in your e-mail.

    John

  26. #266
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    I confuse easily. Thank you for the clarification.
    SB

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