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Thread: HELP rigging grumman sail

  1. #181
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    Okay, I have your address. I'll send it saturday AM.

    To me, Photobucket is very buggy. Lots of ads to wait for, but it's free. When I want to post a pic:

    1) select the pic so it is the only one on the screen
    2) mouse over to the column on the right that has the bars that give you a choice of how to send it
    3) left click on the bottom one
    4) it will change to a pale yellow field and say "copied"
    5) go back to your post on SOtP and right click in your post and select "paste"
    6) a bunch-o-gobbleygook will show, but it will change to the pic

    That's my technical synopsis.

  2. #182
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    Thank you, Outnbacker.
    I'll try following your photo suggestions when I am back at my computer in town. Using the iPhone here at the lake.
    SB


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
    Nothing to be sorry for, Bob. Now we understand about the different brackets and thanks to outnbacker we have good visuals.
    Figuring out how to send a PM was simple enough... now on to photobucket.
    You guys are the best.
    SB
    they are, ain't they? between the two of you guys i've gotten more of an insight in to sailing and building a rig to do it with than i have from just about all the half dozen books i've bought .

    p.s. hey outnbacker, your fears about me drowning myself with the big gunter on a 15 footer are unfounded. the winds i've managed to sail with are rarely strong enough to be worrisome, and when they are i'm spry enough to hike out and wary enough to spill some wind when i should.
    ___________________

    just figurin' this stuff out

  4. #184
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    Good on ya, then. My experience was entirely different. The wind was blowing off the mountain pass onto a lake with an open fetch of 1-1/2 miles. Waves were only about 1 foot, but there were streamers and whitecaps everywhere. It comes down from the pass at noon every day at about 25 -30 mph. The guys in fishing boats were heading in because they couldn't get the right action on the troll lines. And there I was, in a Grumman 18 with that 64ft gunter. I was hiked out til my butt was creased by the gunnels and the boom was dragging in the water, but it was not enough to keep it down to a dull roar. Just too twitchy. It was like sailing on 2X4 piece of lumber. It would have been better to have had a hiking plank along to get my weight out further.

    Instead, I had the Epiphany of Trimaranism and haven't looked back. Actually, it was something I thought of as a kid in 1969 at a Boy Scout Jamboree, after watching several Grumman canoes capsize with full compliment.

  5. #185
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    Silverbear,
    My wife will mail the bracket monday morning 1st class.

  6. #186
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    There is no longer a need for your bracket, so do not send it. This has been a busy morning. The people with the third Grumman rig (for a square stern) returned from their road trip and gave a call this morning. It turns out that it is not a Grumman rig, but some kind of aftermarket sail kit of lesser quality. The mast thwart and leeboards thwart are all of one cast aluminum piece and the mast does not pass through to the floor. Strange set up. I did not open the sail, but it appears to be much smaller than the Gunter sail. The leeboards are flat and the rudderer set up is poorly made. Plus the seller wants $200.00 for it. No sale.
    So I have purchased the wooden masted rig which is complete for $150.00. Upon closer inspection and opened up the old sail is made of cotton and has a few minor tears which could be patched, but for what reason since I have a spare mast and sail of more recent vintage, both in good condition. I checked the pintle bracket and it fits my 17 footer...yay! This afternoon I'll rig it up with the original sail and mast to see how it was set up, then on the next clear day will set it up with the newer aluminum mast and sail. The sail is not attached to the mast and boom on the newer one, so studying the old one should help in lacing up the newer one. It can't be all that hard.
    I want to thank you again for your consideration and willingness to send the bracket. Much appreciated, but no longer needed. Another fellow out there may read this thread and come begging.
    Before too awfully long I will have taken my first sail canoe ride and one of these days will be able to post photos. Thanks for all of your help...
    SB

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
    There is no longer a need for your bracket, so do not send it. This has been a busy morning. The people with the third Grumman rig (for a square stern) returned from their road trip and gave a call this morning. It turns out that it is not a Grumman rig, but some kind of aftermarket sail kit of lesser quality. The mast thwart and leeboards thwart are all of one cast aluminum piece and the mast does not pass through to the floor. Strange set up. I did not open the sail, but it appears to be much smaller than the Gunter sail. The leeboards are flat and the rudderer set up is poorly made. Plus the seller wants $200.00 for it. No sale.
    So I have purchased the wooden masted rig which is complete for $150.00. Upon closer inspection and opened up the old sail is made of cotton and has a few minor tears which could be patched, but for what reason since I have a spare mast and sail of more recent vintage, both in good condition. I checked the pintle bracket and it fits my 17 footer...yay! This afternoon I'll rig it up with the original sail and mast to see how it was set up, then on the next clear day will set it up with the newer aluminum mast and sail. The sail is not attached to the mast and boom on the newer one, so studying the old one should help in lacing up the newer one. It can't be all that hard.
    I want to thank you again for your consideration and willingness to send the bracket. Much appreciated, but no longer needed. Another fellow out there may read this thread and come begging.
    Before too awfully long I will have taken my first sail canoe ride and one of these days will be able to post photos. Thanks for all of your help...
    SB
    ...and not long after that, you will have taken your first canoe dumping under sail, and will be the one who comes begging for tips on how I built my trimaran

    Glad to hear that the bracket fits.

  8. #188
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    Thankfully I'm a good swimmer and will also take the precaution of going out in gentle winds to get a feel for things. I also want to learn how to reef the sail. It may well be that by next summer I will have real outriggers made. The lake I live on is only a thousand acres so the chances of getting caught in a big wind are less than on big water. The likelihood of a trimaran in my future increases as I get older. Tomorrow I'm going to the library to check out a book on the rudiments of sailing. So much to learn, but what an adventure!
    SB

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
    Thankfully I'm a good swimmer and will also take the precaution of going out in gentle winds to get a feel for things. I also want to learn how to reef the sail. It may well be that by next summer I will have real outriggers made. The lake I live on is only a thousand acres so the chances of getting caught in a big wind are less than on big water. The likelihood of a trimaran in my future increases as I get older. Tomorrow I'm going to the library to check out a book on the rudiments of sailing. So much to learn, but what an adventure!
    SB
    it's truly addictive. ever since i finally got the thing wet the first time all i've done is just sail it for the sake of sailing. half the time i don't even bring my fishing rod. whoulda' thought?
    ___________________

    just figurin' this stuff out

  10. #190
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    Time for a little update. Yesterday I took the 17' Grumman out for a first sail in a very gentle wind. I spent a couple of pleasant hours getting the feel of sailing into the wind, tacking in a zip zag to get where I wanted to go. In the afternoon I went out again in a bit more brisk wind (not whitecaps) and things got a bit hairy. Did some downwind running and got into trouble as I was turning with too much wind in the sail... and over she went. I lost my glasses and one paddle, got banged up a little with a couple of bruised ribs and sore upper arm. I was seen from shore and rescued by a power boat which towed me and the canoe slowly to shallow water over the course of about a half hour. I wanted it to be slow so that not too much pressure would be against the mast. I don't know what it takes to bend one, but also don't want to find out. By the time I got in to shore I was quite cold and shivering... this is July, so how dangerous is it capsizing in big water in spring or fall? Plenty dangerous! While I have replayed in my mind the tipping and dunking several times, trying to understand where I screwed up, still it was fun and I will be out again in a few days when things warm up and current storms pass. Great fun except for the swimming part. I'll be reading again the posts dealing with outriggers. And that will be sooner rather than later...
    SB

  11. #191
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    With plenty of end and side buoyancy most people should be able to self rescue a canoe in less than a minute. You need to practice to be confident that you can do it but I would recommend that you do this first.

  12. #192
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    Where would I find a description of this procedure?
    SB

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
    Where would I find a description of this procedure?
    SB
    Have a look at this page

  14. #194
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    Thank you, Keith. Besides the excellent description there is a lot of good information there on the basics of sailing a canoe, advice on sail making and more. A good link for a novice like me, sir!
    SB

  15. #195
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    This is a question for Outnbacker. I'm in the process of making up an initial set of outriggers and am trying to figure out how far out from the canoe the floats should go. If I remember correctly your supports are made from 2x4's and just guessing from the picture it looks like they would make a total span (end to end) of about 12 feet. Is that right? Or is it more than that?

    I've not yet tried posting photos again, but will when I'm around my laptop. Out here at the lake I just use the smart phone and won't even begin to try sending from it.

    Re-reading posts on this thread has been helpful. I discovered that I had my leeboards reversed with the thin edge forward. A common mistake, no doubt. I also had the leeboards too far back from the mast, very nearly to the mid point on the hull. I read where the leeboards should go about 2 1/2' aft of the mast, to begin with anyway. That sound right?

    Lots of storms up this way recently with too much wind for a novice to deal with even when it hasn't been storming. I'm anxious to try a run with the leeboards turned around Correctly and positioned closer to the mast. .. Perhaps tomorrow. Eventually I'll know better what I'm doing, have outriggers and a push-pull arrangement for turning the rudder. It's fun even as things are, so I know that it will get better yet. Thanks in advance for any suggestions from anyone.
    SB


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  16. #196
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    The Grumman instructions for initial leeboard placement call for putting them as close to the front thwart as possible (for the lateen) and about 2 1/2" aft of that for the gunter. Later you may want to move them rearward.

    Do you have the 'official' rigging instructions? They are in the Grumman files in the Yahoo Canoe Sailing group/forum.

    Bob

  17. #197
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    Bob,
    Thanks for the clarification. I have the leeboards positioned up a few inches behind the front thwart and have not yet had a chance to give it a run. Yes, I have printed out the Grumman manual describing the rigging. Still in the process of making the outriggers. Good weather is in the forecast so I will take it out for a sail without the outriggers. Thanks again for your help.
    SB


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  18. #198
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    Silverbear:

    Sorry you dumped it. It's not a pleasant thing when unplanned. Running down wind can get you into the "death wobble" in such a narrow hull - no wide transom with those "hips" to stabilize the boat. Dealing with tangled rigging can complicate recovery but I'm glad you got some help.

    Since you are already in the process of building a trimaran, I'll dispense with encouraging you to just try it again, but this time with capsize practice. You should consider the latter in any event.

    My struts are made from ordinary Lowes lumber, but are 2X3 "scants", not 2X4. I made them each in two pieces mostly because the lumber comes in 8ft lengths, being off the shelf. And, to make storage and transport easier. Cost was about $3 each. So I wacked off the length to 5-1/2 ft each making the beam 11ft to the center of the pontoons.

    Scants are used to frame the walls and roofs of those large garden sheds. You might have to sort through the whole bunk to find four that have no warp, twist or too many knots. Also, you'll want to eliminate any that have grain that is not in the right direction to take the upward pounding of waves. Your trimaran will be fast so it has to be strong. Vertical grain will be nearly impossible to find at a standard lumber rack, but I used quarter grain which is a fair compromise. No issues to date, through many very fast and rough tests. The main thing is minimum knots, which are breaks waiting to happen.

    You can spend about $50 to $100 on vertical grain spruce or fir at a specialty lumber store, like my bud did for his, but that's your choice. We couldn't find spruce any place, but got fir. Just as strong but about 20% heavier - about like mine, which are a hybrid species of Hem-Fir for general use. Mine are still pretty light, being tapered. They act like shock absorbers with a little flex, but are solid as the day I made them, reinforced by e-glass lamination.

    Forming ther upward arc is another subject for another day, and it is optional. Get the wood first.

  19. #199
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    Thank you for responding to my questions. This initial version of outriggers will no doubt not be the last, so I am simply forging ahead. I am not done with big boy sailing (without the training wheels of outriggers), but also want something I can attach to lesson the chances of swimming when I don't want to, especially early after ice out and late in the season before freeze up. In such cold water conditions the risk of hypothermia is no small thing. Also at such times there are few people at their cabins on the lake. Add in my being 71 now and outriggers seem to me as sensible as a life jacket.
    I took the rig out yesterday and there was so little wind I couldn't tell much about how changes in lee board positions affected sailing. I'll take it out again today, hoping for more than just a whisper of wind. Even so, it is nice finding just enough wind to move the canoe along. It doesn't take much. Your advice about practicing a capsize is wise. I can do that while still close to shore in shoulder deep water.
    Regarding the outrigger struts, I have already purchased 4 2x4x8s, searching for the best ones of the lot. About $3.00 each. I have no idea what species of tree they are from. I'll follow your 11' beam lead and cut mine off and will taper them later. This initial set of struts may not get anything more than a coat of varnish and they'll be tried out without even that. Proof of concept first. I'll describe the float arrangement when I can accompany narrative with photographs. Next time I'm at the laptop in town I'll address the issue of posting photos. I wonder if anyone uses a host other than photo bucket, like google cloud or Picasa. The advertising is annoying and so far I haven't been successful anyway. Is there an alternative to photobucket? Without pictures to refer to narrative can get lengthy and confusing. Like describing in words how to tie your shoes...
    Thanks again for your valuable input.
    SB


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  20. #200
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    The advice I echoed for capsize recovery is only passing the word from others here. It's worth having the knowledge of how challenging it can be in adverse conditions - one of those being 71 years of age. For me, having practiced it at 50 - ten years ago - it was tough in windy weather. With the tri config, the most likely scenario is being dismasted, but not rolled.

    Even though I prefer to sail in tri mode, the pontoons can be left at home when I afix my row kit, or only one can be used for fishing or just putzing around - another advantage to having two piece struts.

    if you Google a website under the name Gary Deirking (or Dierking) you will find an excellent presentation of how to build some beautiful pontoons. He is in Australia, I think, and leans towards the native outriggers they have there. The ones you see on my rig are the result of over imagining the hazards and possible failures. So, they are massively over-built, with complete plywood skeletons and cross frames. The next version I built are much more like Dierking's and are much lighter. My friend uses those on his Old Town Tripper Tri. The next iteration for mine will be 10ft long and much thinner and lighter.

    Be careful: The creative instincts may explode and burst the walls of your shop.

    As to the pics, I don't know. I am lost when it comes to some of these simple things. I have some pics on Picasa, but haven't been there in years. I suffer with Photobucket, and have some choice variations on the name.

    I'll get some very early pics up to show the testing phase using bare 2x4's and unpainted , glassed pontoons on a different boat. Proof of concept.

  21. #201
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    I use Picasa and find it very easy.
    After uploading a picture, I go to where you can see it full size.
    Right click on the image, pick "save image location".
    Come back to the Reply screen here, select the Insert Image icon above and copy the location.
    Finished

  22. #202
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    I should probably go and see what I can do at Picasa.

    Gorgeous project you have going there.

  23. #203
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    Its just a skin on frame kayak - 15'
    Didn't have the deck skin on at the time.
    Didn't mean to divert the thread, it was just an example.

  24. #204
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    ...just?

    Anyway, thanks for getting me off my duff and into Picasa. I've been over there updating and adding pics and vids. I'll try posting images from there from now on.

  25. #205
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    The skin on frame (SOF) kayak is "relatively" easy to build, "relatively" cheap, and lighter than most anything else (30#).
    The boat shown is a Yost Sea Tour EXP 15'. The plans are free, but you might need a little help finding them now.
    Unfortunately, I can't figure out an easy way to add a sail/rudder/leeboards, like the canoes here.

    Relatively cheap doesn't mean I haven't figured out how to increase the price with my desires.

  26. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcUp View Post
    The skin on frame (SOF) kayak is "relatively" easy to build, "relatively" cheap, and lighter than most anything else (30#).
    The boat shown is a Yost Sea Tour EXP 15'. The plans are free, but you might need a little help finding them now.
    Unfortunately, I can't figure out an easy way to add a sail/rudder/leeboards, like the canoes here.

    Relatively cheap doesn't mean I haven't figured out how to increase the price with my desires.
    I get that. SOF construction leaves few hardpoints for bombs and missiles.

  27. #207
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    Happily done with bombs and missiles, retired May 13.

  28. #208
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    Thank you guys for the outrigger and photo posting information. I'm in town for the day with access to my laptop so will see what I can do with picasa. I use picasa on my computer and have for years, but I'm guessing Marcup is uploading to the cloud, is that right? I hope I can make it work and dump photobucket with all of it's advertisements. Simple and straightforward is good.
    SB

  29. #209
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    Default Silverbear's 1963 17' Grumman with 1953 sail rig

    If this works then I have posted a photo of my sail canoe with it's original sai from 1953. Photo was uploaded to Picasa.
    SBl

  30. #210
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    Try again and if the photo doesn't appear I'll give it soe more study.
    SB

  31. #211
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  32. #212
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    Woohoo! Here's a couple more...

    Seems to work fine. Thank you so much! Pretty tired looking sail and I have the leeboards reversed and too far back, but it floats and looks like a sail canoe. I'll post more recent photos later with the newer sail and mast and what I'm doing with the outriggers.
    Thanks for your patience with my inept photo attempts.
    SB

  33. #213
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    It happens to everyone.

    Congratulations.

  34. Default

    Hello,

    I am am new to this forum and new to Canoe Sailing. I have a 17' Grumman double ender I would like to rig with a sail. I found this forum while searching for information on the original Grumman sail kit which I understand did not perform too well. I found a lot of good information here, more than anywhere else. I am hoping to gather enough parts and build the rest. I am especially interested in the rudder attachment and mast step Grumman used. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

  35. #215
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    Gentlemen,

    I just found out Picasa is no longer available for storing pictures on the web.
    Sorry to mislead you.

    Something called Google Photos is the new software - but everything I read says it is aimed at storing photos off of cell phones.

    I have not found out how to use it, but other complaints that you cannot make an album to group photos seems to make it much less valuable to me.
    All my pictures were automatically transfered to Google Photos, but so far I can't see how to use it at all.
    All the helpful and expected prompts/ actions have disappeared.

    Sorry.

    If anyone else has a favorite photo uploading/ storing site, please let me know.

  36. #216
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    Here are larger versions of silverbear's images.



    Keith

  37. #217
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    Thank you for making the photos bigger, Keith.
    SB

  38. #218
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    If I can remember how to insert photos there will be images showing the new outriggers I made...




    Following the lead of Outenbacker's outriggers (roughly) I used 2x4's to make the arms supporting the floats. Framework for the floats is heavy wall 3/4" copper water pipe with a T supporting the rear and to make the front curve upwards a 45 degree elbow is used, then a short straight section and then another 45 degree elbow. I copied the idea employed by Spring Creek using friction to hold the uprights in place all the while being adjustable in height. A 3/4" hole was drilled, a kerf line cut and then a carriage bolt and wing nut to tighten down (reduce the diameter) of the hole making a very snug hold down. Swimming noodles provide the flotation. Ones I found come in roughly two sizes; with a 1/2" hole at the core and with the other a 3/4" hole. I bought some of both sizes, but for the outrigger floats used the 3/4". One full "noodle" was fitted over the front section after adding a short section leading up to the T. The remains of that cut off noodle fit over the tail section aft of the T. I glued sections together with rubber contact cement, but don't know that is really needed. At the bottom end of the copper pipe I forced in a wine bottle cork leaving a bit of cork exposed which was drilled and into that drill hole a cotter pin was inserted with the idea of acting as a stop if the rear section of noodle works it's way off the tail section of pipe. That, too, appears to have been unnecessary. More photos will follow.
    SB

  39. #219
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    More images...









    Some random commentary. Middle seat was purchased on ebay and is a low folding beach chair. I added "feet" cut from the noodle with a 1/2" diameter hole which are zip tied to the chair which keeps it from wanting to wobble due to the keel and also makes it float. Very comfortable to sail from and I can move it out of the way when I need to go forward to the mast. The stern seat has a little back rest which clips on to the built in seat. It is from here that I will sail if I have a passenger at the bow and is also the spot where I do my fishing. Also if I need to paddle any distance I do that from the stern seat. I changed the rudder control to something approximating what Outenbacker did making it a push pull setup. Using what I had, bits of hardware are from a steering arm on a 30 hsp Mariner outboard engine, a spring dealy from a kiddie bicycle trailer and a long section of electrical conduit (3/4"). A bicycle handlebar grip fits over the end for a nice hand grip. The little section of swimming noodle the conduit slides through is 1/2" in diameter so the 3/4" conduit is very snug and acts as a friction "grip", holding the rudder in place once it is in position. This has worked out better than I imagined it would. I still had more noodles (only $1.50 each) so have employed them as additional side flotation held in place with zip ties. What else? ... the black things that look like cup holders are for a depth/fish finder pictured to the right in one of the photos. I had two of the holders so clamped one on each side so that the finder can go to either side and the unused one can hold a coffee cup. Made up a bracket for a bow light and also made an electric trolling motor side bracket with a fitting to hold a stern light. Walleye fishing on my lake is often best around sunset and if they are hitting then it may be fairly dark coming home again... lights keep things legal and safe. I have cut down the copper uprights holding the floats to the support arms, shortening them. Each upright is capped with a copper end cap. Looks better and keeps water out of the copper pipe which probably doesn't really matter. I have also removed the stock bow seat which came with the canoe. A low beach chair can go there for the occasional passenger. That spot is actually for the dog and she doesn't want anything more than a rubber pad to lie on. Made a canoe dolly from a bicycle kiddie trailer. That's about it. I have not been sailing in white cap conditions and don't plan to. I have been out in a brisk wind and find the outriggers make for a fast and stable ride. Woohoo! Thanks for the many good ideas and guidance. That's it for now.
    SB

  40. #220
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    Hello Silverbear,
    Looks like a good working prototype for sure.

    You may want to consider the end-of-strut clamping system when you taper the lumber. As an example, my struts begin the taper just outside the gunwales and narrow to 1-1/2" at the tips, with a 5/8" hole for the threaded rod in the pontoon. With a 1" hole, it might get a bit thin. Tapering will greatly lighten the outboard weight. Additionally, you can reduce weight by routing the tapered edges with a 1/2" round over bit. Any reduction in weight is rewarded by less sluggishness while tacking, as one pontoon takes the heel from the other, resulting in faster turns - especially in light air when momentum matters.

    One other thing: If you get into some sudden wind, I wouldn't relay on those pool floats to keep you upright. Decent static stabilizers yes, but you'll need more substantial construction out there to be able to really use the canoe as a trimaran, unless you install some type of outboard butt rest for hiking. Maybe, since you already have the foam in place, just add another tube around the existing ones. Just slice the new ones down one side and slip them around the old ones, glued in place. The gap on the top won't be a problem I'm thinking. The displacement would be instantly doubled for a few bucks and you would have a very good comparison of effect.

    On balance, I like your work so far, and you've got an excellent multi-purpose craft there.

  41. #221
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    Thank you for your kind words and good suggestions. I will, indeed, double the swimming noodle floats and at some point will lighten up the outrigger supports by reshaping and narrowing them outboard of the gunnels.
    I have a second canoe project I'm working on. I picked up a 15 1/2' aluminum square stern toward the end of summer, one which had been at the wrong end of a snowplow and was gashed and then welded back together. I think it's going to make a nice sail canoe being narrower than a 15' Grumman and somewhat lighter. We've had an extended Indian summer here in the upper midwest of the USA which has given me many nice days to tinker outside on sail canoe #2. What I had to start with was the spare wood and aluminum Grumman mast and a tired cotton sail to go with it. There are a couple pictures of this 1953 version of the Gunter rig in earlier pictures in this thread. I have since repaired small tears in the sail with clear sail repair tape and will find out next summer if it will hold wind. It has been fun designing and fabricating everything else to make it into a sail canoe, including mast thwart and step, lee board thwart, outrigger thwarts and rudder. The rudder has been especially interesting and a challenge using what I had on hand. I am just now making up the push/pull tiller control and a system for raising and lowering the rudder blade. I cut out leeboards from a hardwood table top tracing the original Grumman leeboard as a pattern. Next comes shaping them and sanding them down. Come spring they will get a coating of fiberglass resin. They are heavy and oak, I believe. I have given the canoe skin an initial polishing using a buffing machine with Mother's polishing compound to remove the oxidation and giving the old canoe a new shine. Looks nice, I think. The copper float supports are made and I ordered a set of black swimming noodles for flotation. Thanks to your excellent suggestion I will order more noodles in order to double the floatation. I so much appreciate your input on this. Even with the additional flotation I suspect you are right about the danger of capsize in a big wind. I think I'll be alright with my intended sailing conditions which will be pretty much exclusive to smaller bodies of water. The lake at my summer place is only a thousand acres limiting somewhat the size of waves and being caught at great distance from port in a quick weather shift. Other intended sailing lakes are of similar size, so I think I'll be okay. I intend to have the second canoe finished by the time ice is out on local lakes. The 17' double end Grumman will be moored on the lake where I spend my summer and the smaller square stern will stay on a trailer at my apartment in town, ready at any time for a day of sailing near by. Do I need two canoes? No, but I like making things and will have put the second mast and sail to good use. It's been fun in the making and I find myself sail canoe dreaming in my sleep... which is a good way to spend hibernation in the long and cold dark which is coming soon enough. I'll post photos when I'm further along. Should it be here or on a new thread?
    SB

  42. #222
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    Of course you need two canoes! What are you thinking? I heartily endorse anyone having two canoes. Besides, it helps justify the fact that I also just acquired a second one . Grumman, 15ft, very nice shape for a mid 80's model.

    As for the thread: Speaking for myself only, I don't see the need to open a new one, as long as this discussion is revolving around aluminum versions, with their particular aspects for modifications.

  43. #223
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    Silverbear here. I'll be posting some photos soon of my very nearly finished second sail canoe, also aluminum and also using a gunter Grumman mast and sail. I'd like to make this sail capable of being reefed and have read references to Outenbacker having done this, but can't seem to find either a description or photos telling how to go about it. This mast and sail are from 1953 so the lower section of mast is wood and the sail is threaded to the boom rather than having a sleeve. Is this a suitable candidate for reefing or does the sail need to have a sleeve for the boom...
    My sail is 65 square feet so it would be nice to be able to reduce it to 45 square feet or thereabouts. This canoe also has outriggers which should go a long way in keeping it free from capsize, but at just 15 12 feet long and being fairly narrow it should fly in a decent wind. Reducing sail might be a prudent thing. Many thanks for a link or photos... Happy Easter and spring to everyone. Just today our lake here is now ice free so I am hoping to give the old canoe it's maiden sail in a week or so.
    Silverbear

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    The earliest gunters I have seen were sleeved on the boom. Later that was dropped in favor of using the rig loose-footed (ie: uses a boom but sail is attached only at tack and clew), though Grumman did include a grommet midway along the foot. I suspect this was for a loosely tied line to keep things under control while rigging the sail. Reefing should work with either arrangement.

    Outnbacker may pick up on this--he posted pictures of his reefed sail at least once. I think that reefing would be very prudent.

    Bob

  45. #225
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    Hello Silverbear, Hello Bob.
    Been awhile since visiting here, but spring is about to burst forth and I must be about my efforts to fashion yet another version of putting lipstick on a pig. I was tinkering with adding a mizzen to my rig, but the jib that I planned to use presented problems, not opnly in being too large, but making it difficult to reef because it needs to be rigged as a leg-o-mutton. Better to shelve that idea until I can acquire a small bermudan that can be rolled around the mast with no interference from a spar - like the brilliant SD designs. Dropping the sail with reef points is not practical way out there over the aft tip of a pitching canoe - even one stabilized with pontoons.

    As to reefing the gunter, here is a pic from near the beginning of this thread, way back when, that shows the attachment at the top of the mast for a reefing halyard. To reef a gunter, that's what you need - a separate reefing halyard to keep the gunter spar upright as you lower the sail with the main halyard. It is necessary because you don't have main sail slot in the mast, which make lowering the main easy.

    http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/Ou...ml?sort=6&o=11

    The description explains how things up top are made fast, but let me explain what happens with the halyard as it leaves the pic at the bottom edge.

    So, it goes down to a block at the mast partner, next to the main halyard and jib halyard - just like a "real" sailboat. From there, it turns aft and with everything else, is made fast on the leeboard thwart, within easy reach of the midhull tiller station. Just like a dashboard. You keep your coffee there, too.

    So, when you want to reef (assuming you have installed reef points in the sail), you first loosen the main halyard, allowing it to slip down a bit until the sail begins to fold down at the upper spar. Do not let the spar fall away from the mast. That's what the reefing halyard is there for - to keep it upright as the whole upper spar slide down to a point just above the lower boom jaw.

    Now, typically - on mine as an example - there is no topping lift like on a real sailboat. A gunter rig has a short mast and you can install a topping lift bit it will need to be abbreviated, so to speak. In other words, it would need to be a temporary line that can be quickly disconnected at the boom and made fast to the mast in an out-of-the-way spot below the running course of the two halyards as they run down the mast. When you need the topping lift, it can be attached somewhere along the top of the boom at a pad eye, say, at mid point. When not in use, the line is simply un-clipped from the boom and attached to a third pad eye some where near the bottom of the mast, where it will lie along the mast, out of the way. So, it's just a single line, attached at the top, but with two attachment points at the working end - one on the boom, one on the mast bottom for stowage.

    The topping lift when attached, keeps the boom and everything else from sagging into the boat as you are trying to tie the reef lines. I make do without it, but I'll likely add it this spring.

    Okay, you have the reef points gathered and tied. Now just hoist the main halyard and snug the reefing halyard to the mast and off you go. With the 65ft gunter, you'll reduce sail to approx. 50ft. It really helps to lessen the bend in the mast and there is still alot of power left. In those conditions requiring a reef, be sure to tighten the outhaul so the sail foot is as flat as you can get it. I'll try and get a sketch up of the proposed topping lift location for a gunter rig.
    Last edited by OutnBacker; 17th-April-2017 at 01:03 AM.

  46. #226
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    Bob, Thanks for responding. If I remember correctly the old cotton sail on my boom has grommets all along and is "laced" at many points from one end to the other (sail is furled and put away so can't check right now)... another variation from Grumman. In a few days I expect to have the canoe at Eagles Nest Lake and will take some photos and will be sure to include the mast/sail setup.

    Outenbacker, I recall now seeing that photograph and will look forward to your illustration when you have the time. I think I get the idea of what you have done and it does seem very much worth the effort. Even 49 feet is a lot of sail (I gather) and in a stiff wind I imagine that 65 feet is huge, especially for a 15 1/2 foot canoe. On this version of my outriggers I have tripled the amount of flotation which should help guard against capsize. On the other hand I have shortened the length of the outrigger struts to a little over 8 feet end to end so that I can legally trailer the canoe with outriggers in place. If I remember correctly the law allows 102 inches, which is 8 1/2 feet. So, we'll see how it behaves and no doubt reducing the sail square footage will make an important difference. Using good judgment in when to drop the sail entirely or when to stay ashore is perhaps most important of all.

    Many thanks to both of you for giving guidance to an old newbie. Much appreciated!
    SB

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    Silverbear,
    You are, of course, free to do as you wish, but I'd hesitate on narrowing the beam too much. You are proposing an approx beam 55% to length. Your gunter main is huge and the boat is technically a bit small for that sail. That thing can really catch a lot of air quickly. I'd suggest sticking with a beam that is closer to 70% of length or, about 10ft minimum. You have no idea what the pontoons will do at this point - especially if it gets suddenly brisk. With the gunter, there is risk of being overpowered to the extent that you may see the lee pontoon submerged. If that happens, you may not be able to hike out fast enough to prevent an un-scheduled swim.

    My current pontoons displace about 240lbs each. That's a lot of buoyancy. And they are 7ft long, 12 inches tall and 12 inches wide with constant convexity in all sections. In other words, they are very hard to submerge because they increase buoyancy in all directions as they are forced deeper. I've never seen them go half way under, even in very tough conditions wherein I was soaked, the boat was filling with water, and I was screaming like a 10 year old girl in a haunted house because I was sure the mast would go any second.

    Pool noodles are very different because they are more or less cylindrical. Thus, they will reach their maximum buoyancy quickly and have no increasing reserve because they don't get wider as they go deeper. So, if they are forced under, that will be as much as you're going to get, and they will likely continue to go deeper until the boat begins to slew around and then capsize. All in a few short seconds. A good test is to set up your boat, then step out with one foot on a strut, leaning as far as you can (in shallows). If you can do this and submerge the pontoon, then.... In order for me to sink one of mine, I need to actually try to balance myself using a paddle as a crutch, completely outside the gunnel on one strut - and I weigh 235.

    So, I will again state the advantage of two piece struts: 1) you get a wider beam with less handling and storage issues, and 2) the set up time is only minimally longer than single piece struts.

    EDIT NOTE: Let me just add that Solway Dory has a beautiful trimaran that has good proportions. They're other, smaller outriggers are not a trimaran setup, but rather like trainng wheels - just in case. Those who use the latter do a lot of hiking out to minimize the use of the smaller pontoons. The trimaran is purpose-built to fly along with two hulls in the water at all times. That's what mine does. So, the logic of using good proportions is sound.

  48. #228
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    I would be foolish to disregard your sage advice. Having made my struts with too narrow a beam is not what I want to hear, of course, since it means doing them again. On the other hand making them is no great task and saving me from a possibly fatal dunking is certainly worth the time and effort to me. The ice just went out on our lakes up here and I know what it is like taking a dip at this time of year... it is literally breath taking. Even with a life jacket I would not last long. Even in early June the lake is cold and will suck the heat out of one's body. So I thank you you for your timely warning. Over this weekend I intend to launch this second canoe, but it will be with furled sail... just a paddle along the shoreline to say hello to the lake again. When I do set sail it will be with longer struts and with people around.

    Another thing I am considering for the future is a different sail more in line with the size of the canoe and the inexperience of the sailor. I don't need the thrill of dashing about and trying to hike out to avoid capsize... just a nice cruise on a beautiful lake is what I had in mind in the first place. So I will be watchful to see if something suitable presents itself. I wonder what the possibilities are to fit a smaller sail to my gunter rigged mast. Any suggestions? I have my doubts about the condition of my old cotton sail anyway and would not be surprised to see it develop a split. Could a lateen sail be fitted to my mast or does a gunter rig mast require a gunter sail? My questions reveal how very much I do not know. Thanks again.
    SB

  49. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
    I wonder what the possibilities are to fit a smaller sail to my gunter rigged mast. Any suggestions? I have my doubts about the condition of my old cotton sail anyway and would not be surprised to see it develop a split. Could a lateen sail be fitted to my mast or does a gunter rig mast require a gunter sail? My questions reveal how very much I do not know. Thanks again.
    SB
    Hello Again SB,

    Presuming I am thinking of the right item, the old cotton sail in #216 IS a lateen. Interesting that it was made by Ratsey's City Island loft. I don't know if they made any of the original cotton lateens for Grumman, or if yours is a replacement. Many of their sails were made by the Hard loft, which was about 20 miles from the Bethpage factory (City Island is about 30 miles). Regardless, it looks rather like the size of the Grumman standard sail (45 sq ft) and that is a sort of answer for you. If you continue to use it I can suggest some small rigging changes that may increase its life SLIGHTLY. Or you could get a similar sail in nylon or better yet, dacron.

    The gunter mast is about 10 feet tall and the lateen mast about 6 1/2. With a rigging trick you could use the taller mast, but since you have a shorter one there is little need. I am not the world's greatest fan of lateens because of reefing difficulty, but in moderate wind conditions they can work very well.

    The gunter can have more than one set of reefing positions. It wouldn't be hard to get sail area down to the same 45 sq ft as the lateen. Outnbacker really pushes his canoe hard, bending the gunter mast. I suspect that is not your interest. You might consider an entirely different sail, a bermudan or a lug. The 35 sq ft converted Opti sail I describe in another thread had enough power for casual sailing and a larger lug with reefing would also be an option.

    Both the Grumman lug and the lateen use booms about 10 feet long and both can use the forward mast step clip that is obviously in your canoe. A different mast location might require you to do something new for its step.

    My best,

    Bob

    p.s.: I just posted the Grumman Lateen instructions over at the Yahoo sailing canoe forum.
    Last edited by Bob Cavenagh; 20th-April-2017 at 02:56 PM.

  50. #230
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    Bob,
    I can't thank you enough for your keen eye and considerable knowledge. I believe you are quite right in that my old cotton sail is lateen. Because it had been mounted on a standard 17 footer by the previous owner I had made an assumption and am reminded of my mother long ago warning me about making assumptions... in particular the first three letters in the word and not to be one. I just measured the wooden mast and it is approximately 6 12 feet. It is raining today or I would take the sail out and open things up to measure and confirm what we think we know , but will make it official tomorrow. So, it is 45 square feet and not 65. That's a relief. Too bad it can't be reefed. (And why is that?) At any rate that makes the sail more appropriate for a 15 1/2 footer and less like an accident waiting to happen. Even if I end up having to replace the sail I think I'd stay with the lateen so that I could continue to utilize the wooden mast which I like the looks of.

    Outenbacker, with the reduced sail footage do you still feel that it is critical to lengthen the outrigger struts? The reason I had shortened them up to 8 plus feet was so that I could legally trailer the canoe with the outriggers in place. I did make them two piece. As you suggested I took a look at the Solway Dory outriggers on their Osprey. Very nice. They are running a beam of 10 feet on a 16' canoe/boat with 75 square feet of sail... it must fly!
    SB

  51. #231
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    The blue and white furled sail in #219 looks very like a Gunter.

  52. #232
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    Yes, it is a Gunter and is a candidate for Outenbacker's reefing system which I intend to do this summer. In case anyone is confused, the off whie sail with wooden mast was briefly raised on the 17 foot Grumman double end canoe when I first got both the canoe and the sail rig from different sources. Since I already had the all aluminum mast with blue and white sail you mentioned, I used that newer setup on the Grumman. At summer's end I purchased a 15 and a half foot no name square end canoe not yet pictured which is getting the old cotton lateen sail with wooden mast. Anyone have a used 45 foot lateen sail up for sale?
    SB

  53. #233
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    SB,
    Bob's advice is good. I might also add that for your 15 footer, a 34ft main off a Glen-L 8-Ball or an El Toro would be about as well matched and simple as can be. As Bob says, you'll have to set up a different step position some where aft of the current location. I think the boom on those is about 7ft long. The Glen-L version is a simple sock type that slips over the mast and is loose footed so it would be easy to reef by rotating the mast. Fasten the luff with a few simple button snaps to keep the sail winding. You could go with a narrow beam as you will - or, just sail it in polite conditions with no O'riggers at all.

    This weekend I'm pretty busy but I'll try to set up my boat in the back and install a topping lift, as I envision it. Then, I'll try to make a video showing how the sliding gunter reefing system works. No promises because I'm installing a 500lb front room window and all the exterior and interior trim.

    Yes, the Solway Dory tri uses similar proportions to what I suggested as the best beam to width ratio. My advice is simply steered towards keeping you out of the water. You can certainly use a narrower beam realizing the potential for a swim. The boat won't sink. If you had pontoons that were, shall I say...more advanced in design...I would not be so critical in my observations. If you lived anywhere within a hundred miles of me, I would just give you mine, as I'm building new ones.

  54. #234
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    Just attempted to post photos of sail canoe #2. No deal.
    SB

  55. #235
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    Here are some photos of Sail Canoe #2 which I purchased last fall. The weld repair you see if the result of the canoe having been hit by a snow plow.



    The canoe is fifteen and a half feet long and of unknown manufacture. The remnants of a decal suggest it was made in Louisiana.



    I paid $200.00 for it.


  56. #236
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    I started cleaning up the oxidized skin using Mother's aluminum and mag wheel polish which is a paste. To apply it I used a hand buffing machine and made disposable pads for it from discs cut from old sweat shirts. I cut the discs a few inches greater in diameter than the pad it was to fit and then used a heavy thread and needle (using what I had I used a synthetic sinew as used in leather work and a sail needle)... and stitched it loosely... then drew the two ends of the thread tight and knotted it. Once the pad turned black I snipped the thread and stitched on another pad. Paper towels were used to rub away the blackened paste from the canoe and what you see is the result.



    Some difference!
    SB
    Last edited by silverbear; 23rd-April-2017 at 12:02 AM.

  57. #237
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    Winter interrupted cleaning up the oxidized aluminum, so i made up hardware indoors. Mast thwart and step, outriggers and struts to hold them and most time consuming was making the rudder using what I could find in my department of dead stuff. The aluminum plate came from leftovers salvaged from an aluminum dock which had been made in turn from old high school bleachers. There are some bolt holes in the rudder blade which were already there and I'm wondering if I should fill them with epoxy or is this not a problem? The blade is fairly heavy, weighing over twice as much as the grumman rudder on my double end sail canoe. The price was right, though. It took some head scratching coming up with the lift mechanism. I made the little pulley wheels from patio door rollers. I made the seat for the middle from a lawn chair, cutting down the legs in front and sectioning the rear support. I like it and the price was right, again.













    The floats were purchased on ebay (only place I could find black swimming noodles). These are extra dense and I'M using three noodles for each section... two of them being slit along the edge so that they could be fitted around the central float. Zip ties bind them together. I will apply contact cement where one section meets another. Length of the copper uprights will be determined once the canoe is afloat.
    SB

  58. #238
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    And these final pictures were taken yesterday. I opened up the sail and yes, it is a 45 square foot lateen sail. I'm hoping the old cotton sail will last through the summer. I have added swimming noodles along the inside of the gunnels to provide plenty of flotation. Originally there was white styrafoam in the bow and under the stern seat, now long gone. And that's about it until the lake warms up a bit and a nice warm day with a gentle breeze makes a sailing invitation I cannot refuse. At that time photos will follow.
    SB








  59. #239
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    Hmmm.... no pics here.

  60. #240
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    Well. this is frustrating. I spent a good bit of time yesterday posting photos of my second canoe rig. First I tried using Picasa as I had in the past and the attempt failed. Then I went to Google Photos and did it there with apparent success. I could see them anyway. This morning I booted up the laptop and I couldn't see my photos. I do not understand. Then I went to My Google Photos and saw them... then went back to this forum site and there were my pictures. I'm guessing there is some kind of photos sharing permission problem or something like that. If anyone knows I'd appreciate knowing how to fix this. In the meantime I'll see if I can find a solution.
    SB

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