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Thread: HELP rigging grumman sail

  1. #241
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    I feel your pain.

  2. #242
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    Eagles Nest Lakes, Ely, Northeastern Minnesota, USA
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    Thanks. I "googled" the problem and did not come up with anything. Just now I rebooted this laptop and see my images fine. Don't know...
    SB

  3. #243
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    Eagles Nest Lakes, Ely, Northeastern Minnesota, USA
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    Am I still the only one seeing my pictures here? I booted up the laptop first thing this morning and went to this site... and
    there are my pictures. I'll post a couple of the mast thwart and step to see if they come up...
    ... I see them.
    SB

    e more to see if they come up.


  4. #244
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    Dec 2012
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    Pennsylavania USA and Ontario Canada
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    These two are visible. I have some suggestions but they will have to wait til I have a proper keyboard.

    Bob

  5. #245
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    Jun 2016
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    Thanks, Bob. I am truly befuddled. I believe that I posted the others in exactly the same way as these two. That these two are visible is encouraging.
    SB

  6. #246
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    Jun 2016
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    I'm going to try inserting the photos from post #235 of the canoe as it was when I bought it last fall.









    And here are a couple showing the initial polishing...





    From where I am the pictures appear to be inserted. If anyone can see them (or not) let me know so I'll either give up or continue re-inserting the remaining photos. Thanks and I apologize for the hassle.
    SB

  7. #247
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    I don't know anymore about the photo situation than I did before, so will let it go for now. On another subject I have a question. I'm trying to find a replacement lateen sail for this canoe. Sometime in the future I may well go to another mast and sail type (something which can be reefed), but unless something falls into my lap I think I'll use the mast I have through this summer and try to come up with a good alternative next year. I can use the tired old cotton sail I have for now, but who knows if it will hold up even for this one summer? I want to have a contingency plan in case the sail splits in a sudden gust of wind. I found a plain white sail of the right dimensions on ebay which is new and shipped for$90.00 and is made for a Super Snark or Sea Snark. It differs from my old sail in that mine attaches to the mast and boom with rope laced through grommets in the edge of the sail. The replacement has sleeves instead. I checked with the seller to be sure my mast and boom would fit and they won't since the sleeves are for a maximum of 1 and 1 eighth while my mast and sail would need at least 1 and 1 quarter diameter. If I were to fold over the sleeves and stitch them together then I could attach grommets and be good to go. It is a plan anyway. I'll keep looking, but so far I have not found a duplicate of the Grumman lateen sail.
    As recommended I recently purchased a copy of Todd Bradshaw's Canoe Rig: The Essence And The Art (great book) and fell in love with his bat sail... very cool and since it is similar to a gunter rig using a two part mast I could utilize the wooden section of the mast I have and make the rest. Sail area is 37 square feet which seems to me to be just about right for a 15 and a half foot canoe. And it can be reefed. Something to think about anyway. I've done a lot of stitching while teaching native crafts, making moccasins, mukluks, bags and all sorts of stuff, so am familiar with basic things a heavy duty sewing machine can do. Might make a nice project for next winter, but in the meantime I need an emergency plan for now. Anyone know of a source for a lateen sail to fit a Grumman mast?
    SB

  8. #248
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    Ft. Worth, Tx
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    I just came upon "intensity sails" who have relatively cheap sails.
    They may have sails for a Sunfish since that is such a large class of boats.
    A person who has one for a Laser said the cloth and stitching is good, but the sails are not certified to an "official" class standard - which you don't need anyway.

  9. #249
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    Hello SB,

    I am not particularly fond of the original Snark sails. Made of lightweight nylon, they were set on too-light spars and bagged excessively in high winds, but the boats were (are) kind of narrow and low and weren't much used in higher winds anyway, so everything kind of worked out. Canoes can be stiffer than the original Snark family.

    I haven't seen the newest replacements in the flesh....

    Masts are so easy to make that I'd not let using the current lateen one be a barrier. That said, you really ought to make a new mast step if you jump to a sail that is much shorter on the boom than that lateen. If you did that, the opti sail I modified in the current thread 'some sail rigs' might do you nicely for around $100.

    Alternately, I can send you a plan for a much earlier lateen of about 40 sq ft that is designed to be made of cotton, and you could make one using a good brand of cotton unbleached muslin. It uses only edge round with no broadseams. A tailor or dressmaker might sew it up if you don't want to. It is an easy sewing job with a domestic machine, but the panels SHOULD be joined with a French or flat felled seam:



    Sail edges could have grommets or be sleeved. Installing grommets on any of these sails is easy, but you really want to use good SPUR grommets and the tools to set those are usually $30-40.

    Personally, I would just sail and repair your current cotton sail into oblivion, unless it rips every time you touch it. The foot could use a bit of reinforcement. Repairs can be the same type of unbleached muslin. Enjoy it while it lasts and while you figure out exactly what really nice sail you want.

    Cotton has issues: it mildews quickly, it stretches and doesn't recover well, and ultimately it may rot. But it is easy to work with.

    Nylon was once popular for sails until Dacron came along. Balogh and some lateen makers still use it. It is bright and colorful though sun damages it, sometimes quickly. It's worst property is that it stretches, and stretches even more when wet--just the time you want it NOT to stretch. I made a crab claw/lateen out of it and it does work rather adequately, but I found it hard to control seam flatness (ie: puckering) in such soft stuff. (I bought a few yards of a half coated nylon for $1.29 a yard, nearly 5 feet wide, so my investment in the sail is trivial.)

    As far as I know, all the Grumman lateens were also nylon, but generally well made. They weren't that special. I wouldn't spend a lot of time chasing one down unless it was sold with a complete rig for a decent price.





    I plan about to post a few lateen items in that other thread.

    I read MarcUps recent post about Intensity Sails and I concur with him about those, but a Sunfish lateen is at least 75 sq feet and needs spars something like 13+ feet long, so it is perhaps too much for a 15 foot canoe.

    Here is a convenient link for folks searching for a sail to adapt:

    http://www.boat-links.com/Sails/

    My best,

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Cavenagh; 25th-April-2017 at 07:05 PM.

  10. #250
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    Jun 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcUp View Post
    I just came upon "intensity sails" who have relatively cheap sails.
    They may have sails for a Sunfish since that is such a large class of boats.
    A person who has one for a Laser said the cloth and stitching is good, but the sails are not certified to an "official" class standard - which you don't need anyway.
    Thanks for the tip. Took a look and it appears to be a bigger sail, so I don't think it would fit.
    SB

  11. #251
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    Jun 2016
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    Bob, Once again you have given me much to consider. The most immediate takeaway is that I will follow your suggestion to use the lateen sail I have for the time being, patching it if need be. And I'm also thinking that it might be a good idea to make that cotton lateen from the plans you mentioned. Doing so would buy some time and also give me experience working with cotton and grommets with a resulting sail that works. Jumping right into a bat wing sail project first off might not be so wise a move. If the bat wing is to turn out well then I need to know what I'm doing and give it the time it deserves. I like the look of unbleached muslin cotton. Nylon I will stay away from. Dacron sounds like a good choice and I am also wondering if cotton would be easier to work with. Longevity is not so much a concern when one is 72. The sail I have and am looking to replace is 64 years old so if I were to make both a lateen and a bat wing they should last me til my 136th birthday. I suspect I'll not only be done with sailing by then, but also done with everything else as well. Ha!
    SB

  12. #252
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    Hello SB,

    I will scan and post a couple of older lateen designs in a separate thread.

    Cotton is mostly obsolete for sails save for those made as period pieces. It IS easy enough to sew with a domestic machine; the biggest challenge is keeping the panel joints straight and true. It is fine for practice work, but some things don't translate to dacron.

    Dacron is MUCH nicer to sew as it arrives crisp and straight. Panel seams can be simple overlaps and most of the common cloths have seam allowance guides. Duckworks currently sells
    Challenge 3.8 Oz. Genoa for $8 per yard, 36 inches wide--or $8 for 9 sq ft.

    Unfortunately, I can't lay my hands on a fully developed plan for a 40-45 sq ft lateen in dacron, and the best dacron sails use broadseam in addition to edge round. Easy enough to design, I just don't have one available, and I don't have time to work one up right now. There IS a lateen guide in the appendix to the MAINSAILS booklet from Sailrite, but that is a more complicated sail than is necessary. You COULD use the plans designed for cotton and make nice looking sails that work but they might not be quite optimal.

    Bob

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