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Thread: Fisher prospector - Is this a tall order ???

  1. #1

    Default Fisher prospector - Is this a tall order ???

    Having had my plans since last year and not having enough covered space to build, i have had to wait till the weather gets better and after all this time my wife finally sanctioned the canoe after she had ago in one at the BCUK weekend at delemere.
    But we are having our holiday camping in scotland again this year with my brother and family...and i happened to mention that i would like to get the canoe built by then to take with us.
    He asked how long i thought it might take to build to which i said it shouldnt take too long once i get going. He then offered to help me build it in his 20foot garage...Now this is the problem........He will take his motorbikes and gym out of the garage for the weekend if after 2 days of 2 men building this i can take it away with me on the roof of my car.
    Is this possible ?????
    If so then any advice tips/tricks that might help will be apreciated...
    I have read alot of the self build blogs and they all seem to take quite abit of time..

  2. #2
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    Default

    Hi Shaun,

    I hate to be the voice of doom, but I very much doubt a Prospector can be built in that time. The main problem with building in a short space of time is not so much the man-hours, as the time it takes each step to cure. If you add up this time (say 8 hours x 5 operations - joining planks, tack welding, taping the insides, filleting & taping the outsides, inwales, outwales, seats), I very much doubt you could do it in a weekend.

    Some practical suggestions then!

    1) The SF Prospector is a lovely design, but lots of work because it has 5 planks per side. If you went for a design that uses fewer planks, this would significantly speed up the build. Canoes like this one would be quicker to build, or how about the SF Wren or Raven for example?

    2) Summer is nearly here, so if you don't have a garage of your own, do you have a garden or driveway where you could rig up a makeshift tarp tent to build the canoe in?

    3) Where are you going in Scotland? It's great to have your own canoe, but many places would hire you a nasty tupperware thingy for the week at reasonable cost.

    Good luck!

    Blutack.
    The Canoeist's prayer: "Lord grant me the serenity to walk the portages I must, The courage to run the rapids I can, And the wisdom to know the difference".

    John Muir Trust - Wild Places for Nature & People.

  3. #3

    Default

    I do have space at home to build but it would be outside which is not a problem.I am not wanting to come away with the canoe fully finished but just so long as it is ridged enough to transport.
    I understand what you are saying about building a simpler canoe but i have looked at alot before making my choice and i think the prospector fits nearly all what i would like to do with it
    If it has to be done in smaller chunks then so be it
    I am not too sure where we are heading as i leave that to SWMBO i just have to drive but what i do know is it is on the coast and not too far away from some other loch's. I will find out exactly where tho

    Plan of action...

    1. Get ply at home and cut all pannels
    2. Transport panels to brothers on the friday night and join them together.

    Saturday morning

    3. Stich the panels together and cut out moulds.
    4. Epoxy between the stitches.
    5. Start making seats and other bits while epoxy is curing.
    6. Remove moulds and stiches.
    7. Fill where necessary and tape the seams completely on the inside.

    Is this possible in a Day providing the epoxy cures in time ofc ??

    So are you saying that everytime i epoxy it has to cure for a full 8 hours ?

    I will have to think about the rest as some bits look like they get a bit fiddly..Especially after seeing some of the build blogs

  4. #4

    Default tarp

    if you have room at home to finish it,why not put up a tarp and start it at home (no rushing,more time)i have built prospectors in a 12'x24' tunnel tent 2 at a time.if you can resin up in early morning the sun will speed up curing time(last summer with doors on tent zipped up temperature would reach 120 degrees) i would go back after 3 hours open up tent and continue with next stage,in the 3 hours waiting time(outside of tent) i would make seats,rip down timber for inwale,outwale,gunwale and any thing else that needed doing,end result












    don't rush take your time and you will be fine.
    Last edited by MagiKelly; 26th-April-2007 at 08:31 AM. Reason: Pictures
    barry
    the things we do for love,paddle,paddle,then paddle some more

  5. #5
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    Default Its possible with Poly !!

    Hi I just started building a Christine - (6th canoe build)
    I build usually outside as my garage is full of , so it the only way. I can usually find somewhere to store it overnight or if it rains but not to build.
    As a boatbuilder I know only too well the problem of waiting for epoxy to cure. I have built a Prospector in a weekend apart from finishing off but with Poly of course. At present Im up to stitching panels and am 2 hours into the project !!
    You will have a long wait just to see your panels joined - maybe do it Friday night and have all day sat to stitch and glue ??
    Best of luck they are a great boat 4 Prospectors built !!
    I find the painting and varnishing the worst job Yeuch !!
    Jay

  6. #6

    Default

    I dont want to rush the build and make a rough looking canoe as i could never be happy with that.

    So curing time all depends on temp ?

    Barry having looked at your prospectors it doesnt look like you have used tape on the outside of the side joins. Is this correct ? Or is it difficult to see from the pics ?? As the final finish looks Excellent.

    I think SWMBO is ok about a tarp on the garden so this might be the way i go and like you have siad No Rushing and More time.

    I am planning on getting some 10mm MDF for making templates of the panels so i can then just lay them on the Ply and us them to mark around.

    Thanks for all your help and responses and watch this space

    shaun

  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    I do have space at home to build but it would be outside which is not a problem.I am not wanting to come away with the canoe fully finished but just so long as it is ridged enough to transport.
    I found that after stitching the canoe was pretty rigid - I would say enough for two people to carefully handle it and put it on a roof rack. If you start to run out of time but have tacked the chines I would leave the stitches in including those on the bulkheads and centre former for transportation.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    Plan of action...

    7. Fill where necessary and tape the seams completely on the inside.
    FYI - it took me 6 hours; working on my own, to completely fillet and tape the inside cabin area only - so with 2 people working you could expect to halve it, also if you don't fillet (just fill in the gaps) that would save time too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    So are you saying that everytime i epoxy it has to cure for a full 8 hours ?
    It depends on what hardener you use and the temperature - high temp and fast hardener would probably work o.k. I did mine using fast hardener one afternoon, the next morning they'd cured enough to handle without fear of breaking the joint. I would say (my opinion only based on experience) that when joining the panels the butt joints need to fully cure as you don't want them to move after you've glued them. I assume you'd glue and tape at the same time?

    Make sure you get the panels halves lined up correctly as this will reduce the amount of fettling required to make the chines line up nicely - see Jem's page for the string method http://jemwatercraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25

    You could try this also to save time and that is to align one of each panel type, glue/tape, cover with a non stick plastic or similar then put the other identical panel(s) over to match your already aligned one and repeat the glue/ tape procedure.

    Good luck.
    Pete.

  8. #8

    Default taping outside

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    I dont want to rush the build and make a rough looking canoe as i could never be happy with that.

    So curing time all depends on temp ?

    Barry having looked at your prospectors it doesnt look like you have used tape on the outside of the side joins. Is this correct ? Or is it difficult to see from the pics ?? As the final finish looks Excellent.

    I think SWMBO is ok about a tarp on the garden so this might be the way i go and like you have siad No Rushing and More time.

    I am planning on getting some 10mm MDF for making templates of the panels so i can then just lay them on the Ply and us them to mark around.

    Thanks for all your help and responses and watch this space

    shaun
    paul fisher of selway fisher states you do not have to tape outside joints if you use epoxy resin except the keel joint which should be done with 3" tape or 2 overlapping lengths of 2",thicken resin with filleting blend and fill out joints and wire holes,its worth getting selway-fishers booklet on how to construct a canoe using stitch and tape method
    barry
    the things we do for love,paddle,paddle,then paddle some more

  9. #9

    Default

    How do i do the quote boxes ?

    as it will help alot when replying to posts

    Ah the search facility helps alot i found out how to do it so will replay later on
    Last edited by ShaunMc; 26th-April-2007 at 09:47 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    How do i do the quote boxes ?

    as it will help alot when replying to posts
    When replying to a message use the quote button at the bottom right of the post.

    You will see at the beginning of the quote a square bracket [ followed by the word quote and your identifier and another ].

    At the end of the quote you'll see this (minus the speech marks) "[/quote]"

    To start a partial quote copy the bit as described in my first paragraph. Use the text you want then end it with the bit described in the second paragraph.

    Do this each time you want to quote different sections etc. Preview your message before posting to make sure you've got it right.

    Drop me a personal email if this doesn't make sense .
    Pete.

  11. #11

    Default

    Hi shaun

    Not got much to add, but am also building to a deadline, though probably not as tight as yours.

    my build blog is here : http://pegosaurus.blogspot.com/

    So far I found the most time consuming part was marking, cutting out and planing the panels to size. But it's important to get accurate, and as mentioned earlierusing that jemcraft technique of setting the fore/aft panels accurately helps keeps things aligned when stitching.

    The other problem you'll face is when you start thinking about your next build project when you haven't finished your first... how about this one:

    http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yachtsover35.htm#CAPE

    best of luck, and post some pics as you go!

    cheers

    Mike.

  12. #12

    Default

    Hi
    I would suggest not rushing it as you will mess up, particularly if it is your first boat, and you are not used to using epoxy. Each batch of epoxy will ahsve a working time of 15 mins or so, which will put you under quite enough pressure! I would suggest the best way to end up with a good looking first boat is to limit yourself to doing one major job a night. You then won't get brain ache, and you will make less mistakes. Even doing one job a night, or 3 on a weekend day(1 morning, 1 afternoon, 1 evening) you should be done in a month and you will end up with a boat you will be proud of.
    Don't expect too much though, I have done 3 now, and I know the next one will be better!
    James

  13. #13
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    Default Progress for one day

    Today not working too hard I am up to turning over my Christine to glass the outside. Ok Ive done a few and know some of the pitfalls but it would be possible with two people to get it glassed inside and out with epoxy in a weekend. I did this alone on a windy drive !!
    Of course you must have a New Zealand Chisel !!
    This makes things quick !! - Its an angle grinder with a very coarse 60 or 40 grit disc. We use them all the time for trimming wood etc. But be carefull you cant glue the dust back on !!
    So good luck take care - measure twice cut once.
    Cheers Jay

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibbo View Post

    I did mine using fast hardener one afternoon, the next morning they'd cured enough to handle without fear of breaking the joint. I would say (my opinion only based on experience) that when joining the panels the butt joints need to fully cure as you don't want them to move after you've glued them. I assume you'd glue and tape at the same time?

    You could try this also to save time and that is to align one of each panel type, glue/tape, cover with a non stick plastic or similar then put the other identical panel(s) over to match your already aligned one and repeat the glue/ tape procedure.
    I think i would try and glue and tape at the same time yes...unless anyone has bad experiance with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman
    its worth getting selway-fishers booklet on how to construct a canoe using stitch and tape method
    Ordered book today thanks for the tip.


    Quote Originally Posted by jhb0510
    Each batch of epoxy will ahsve a working time of 15 mins or so, which will put you under quite enough pressure!
    does all epoxy only have 15mins working time ??


    Quote Originally Posted by Paddlerjay
    Of course you must have a New Zealand Chisel !!
    This makes things quick !! - Its an angle grinder with a very coarse 60 or 40 grit disc. We use them all the time for trimming wood etc. But be carefull you cant glue the dust back on !!
    I do have an angle grinder yes but is that what you used for shaping the panels or for sanding the epoxy runs off ??

    Guys thanks for all the Feedback and this is helping alot to build my plan of action

    Hopefully will get my blog up and running before i start the build

  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    I think i would try and glue and tape at the same time yes...unless anyone has bad experiance with this.
    This method is recommended by Jem and others when doing the internal fillets and works well because the glue gets pushed into the tape. Sometimes referred to as a wet on wet operation. I didn't do it this way myself but I can't see why it wouldn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    does all epoxy only have 15mins working time ??
    Again it depends on what hardener and temperature it is. But you could use 15 mins as a starter. You'll find out when you begin... The key is preparation. Get your tape and whatever else you're doing cut up first etc so the mixing is the last thing you do. This will maximise your working time with the epoxy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    I do have an angle grinder yes but is that what you used for shaping the panels or for sanding the epoxy runs off ??
    Be real careful with the angle grinder. It does remove epoxy, wood etc very very quickly. I found using a worn disc (previously used when removing the paint from my Triumph Vitesse) the best as the cut is less. Try using a new 80 grit one and you'll go through everthing like a hot knife through butter if you're not careful.

    You might be better off using the random orbital sander as it's less aggressive in my experience. I used a combination of electric plane and a spoke shave for shaping my panels.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    Hopefully will get my blog up and running before i start the build
    Spend your time preparing for the build rather than blogging...

    Pete.

  16. #16

    Default preparation

    preparation is essential to ensure a comfortable stress free working enviroment.
    barry
    the things we do for love,paddle,paddle,then paddle some more

  17. #17

    Default

    On butting the panels I glued mine first and taped the following day. It gave me more of a chance to get the alignment right. But once set up, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get the first side glassed.

    I planed all my panels to size with hand tools. it was hard work and took me all day, but I enjoyed it.

    I'm using west epoxy 105/205 and have found I get about 20-25minutes useable time with the filleting mix, at current evening ambient temp (I suppose between 12 and 16 degC).

    I want to go home and get on with mine now!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat View Post

    I want to go home and get on with mine now!
    Go, go now. If you do then I'll go home as well... My whole life revolves around building my canoe at the moment. I just hope I enjoy paddling as much as the building.

    Pete.

  19. #19

    Default

    I think i can get away with marking up the MDF i will use as templates in the house on the dinning table then once they are cut out it is just a case of drawing round them on the marine ply.

    After looking at the plans am i correct in thinking that i will be shaping 4 planks at the same time ?? im just going on what is on http://www.selway-fisher.com/Stitch%20and%20Tape.htm


    from selway fisher stitch and tape page
    A. Having marked and cut out the plywood panel (plank) shapes sets of planks are planed up together (with the Christine, the bow and stern are the same shape and therefore there will be 4 of each shape - bow, stern, port and starboard).
    If this is the case am i better of clamping them together with clamps prior to putting in the work mate ?? so that i can turn them over without them moving

    Looking at ordering the epoxy and have come across UK Epoxy resins..are these ok to use??? if so looking at these quantities.

    2x1.5 kg UK Epoxy Resin/Hardener
    0.3 kg High Density Filleting Blend
    2x50 mm wide fibreglass tape 50 metre roll

    Does that look about right ??

    Shaun
    Last edited by ShaunMc; 27th-April-2007 at 09:33 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default

    Personal message sent.
    Pete.

  21. #21

    Default uk epoxy resin

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunMc View Post
    I think i can get away with marking up the MDF i will use as templates in the house on the dinning table then once they are cut out it is just a case of drawing round them on the marine ply.

    After looking at the plans am i correct in thinking that i will be shaping 4 planks at the same time ?? im just going on what is on http://www.selway-fisher.com/Stitch%20and%20Tape.htm




    If this is the case am i better of clamping them together with clamps prior to putting in the work mate ?? so that i can turn them over without them moving

    Looking at ordering the epoxy and have come across UK Epoxy resins..are these ok to use??? if so looking at these quantities.

    2x1.5 kg UK Epoxy Resin/Hardener
    0.3 kg High Density Filleting Blend
    2x50 mm wide fibreglass tape 50 metre roll

    Does that look about right ??

    Shaun
    thats the one i have always used.the quantaties look right for one canoe (i have always bought the larger quantaties as i build more than one at a time)
    barry
    the things we do for love,paddle,paddle,then paddle some more

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