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Thread: Do we know of anyone ........

  1. #1
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    Default Do we know of anyone ........

    ........ who has ever been charged, trialed and sentenced for canoeing on a river in the so-called closed season? If not, why are we having this access discussion?


    "Pedal five hundred miles on a bicycle and you remain basically a bourgeois; paddle a hundred in a canoe and you are already a child of nature" - Pierre Trudeau

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    There are about 3 examples of prosecutions, sorry can't remember the details.

    I don't think the access campaign is just to stop actual prosecutions that are happening but also to stop people being intimidated by the fear of prosecution, and the other threats that are made by those who object to the navigation of rivers. We need to get a clear right to navigate all rivers at all times enforced by a legal ruling or Act of Parliament, this would reduce the amount of threats and intimidation that canoeists get.

    Barney

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    I have no fear of being prosecuted when canoeing, whenever or wherever I paddle. I am aware that there is a (slim) chance of confrontation and in extreme cases, threatening behaviour and things like car vandalism. But these are so unlikely that I just get on with it, and if I meet anybody who says I shouldn't be there, I smile and chat reasonably about our opposing views, whilst carrying on.
    Paddler,blogger,camper,pyromaniac: Blog: Wilderness is a State of Mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barney View Post
    There are about 3 examples of prosecutions, sorry can't remember the details.
    The details are really important. You may be thinking of cases such as this:-

    Rawsons v Peters - where a canoeist had to pay nominal damages (50p) for disturbance to fishing even though no fishing was taking place. The case is described here (see page 138). It is worth noting that "The House of Lords Select Committee on Sport and Leisure referred to Rawson v Peters as, ‘one notorious case which has led to litigation." (see page 140) and "In Halsbury’s Laws of England it is stated that, ‘Lord Denning MR added (although he was not reported on this point) that there are many cases in which a canoeist has a right to navigate; the right may be acquired by long user or by grant or reservation, and if the canoeist has the right, the owners of the fishing rights must allow the navigation and put up with the disturbance of the fishing.’(my underlining).
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
    ........ who has ever been charged, trialed and sentenced for canoeing on a river in the so-called closed season? If not, why are we having this access discussion?

    No one.
    One reason is because there is no offence of canoeing - or boating et al even on public navigations in the closed season for coarse fish 15 march to 15 June or the closed season for game fishing (Salmon sea trout & brown trout closed seasons vary according to location & species). Thus, if there is noi offence of paddling outside the closed season then the fact that there is no public navigation doesn't come into it.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Perry View Post
    No one.
    One reason is because there is no offence of canoeing - or boating et al even on public navigations in the closed season for coarse fish 15 march to 15 June or the closed season for game fishing (Salmon sea trout & brown trout closed seasons vary according to location & species). Thus, if there is noi offence of paddling outside the closed season then the fact that there is no public navigation doesn't come into it.
    David,
    I am confused... are you suggesting there is an offence of canoeing inside the open season?

    If so, can you please tell where in statute this offence is to be found?
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
    ........ who has ever been charged, trialed and sentenced for canoeing on a river in the so-called closed season? If not, why are we having this access discussion?

    Environment Agency (Wales) v Coventry City Council 2011 for 'alleged wilful disturbance of river bank and spawning gravels' by a party of disadvantaged school kids rafting on the R.Dee as part of an activity holiday. Case dropped by EA (Wales) on 14th November 2011 when they realised they were being complete *rses.
    'Life is Art, and not otherwise' C.S.Lewis

  8. #8
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    Doug

    Absolutely not an offence but I was being specific in that the original poster asked whether anyone had been prosecuted for paddling during the closed season - which i've assumed was a reference to fishing closed seasons. As there is no offence specific to canoeing in the closed season then the answer is clearly no. The cases mentioned therefore were not for canoeing in a closed season. The Rawsons v Peters case was for disturbing the riparian rights of fishermen. Had there been a recognised public navigation on that river no case against the paddler would have succeeded because you have a right to paddle and whether fishermen are 'disturbed' is irrelevant.
    http://www.davidwperry.blogspot.co.uk/

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    The Coventry Vs EA Rafting Case features in my access video (for those that haven't yet seen it it's on my website)

    What I found by speaking to various user groups, and settling down on Fishermen and Canoeists etc is that from the one's I spoke to - they were fine. Only one angler around me has any issue. This would suggest he's in the minority. Now I know that's a bit of a general statement but I feel that its really just the minority that have much of an issue.

    I think that there are people on both sides who don't help the situation. As a matter of interest I was with some friends on the Leven in Cumbria last weekend. We came out through a field which is no longer the get-in. We were challenged by a passing angler, but nothing more than that, he let us past, we went past, we went home. No need to get all angry in his face, he was polite, and so were we.

    I actually agree with some environmental cases being allowed against both parties, be they kayakers or anglers. But what it really boils down to - for me anyway - is this:

    If both parties stopped backbiting and arguing with each other, and both went back to the landowners as a combined force, then the latter would really be in the S@ŁT. I reckon that landowners etc want us to argue amongst each other and therefore create a situation so that they don't have to do anything.

    Just my 2 pence. No doubt no everyone might agree with it.
    Last edited by Jim_Mountainworx; 9th-June-2012 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Didn't put the quote in so had to change it to make sense!
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  10. #10
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    whats the difference of me taking a narrow boat on a river in closed season compared to a canoe????

    No closed season with ditch crawlers

    The main arguments I get on narrow boats with anglers (and usually the fishermen at the top end of the staffs and worcs canal) is that they pay to join a club that has the fishing rights, all you need to point out is that they lease the rights of BW and BW own the waterways rights

  11. #11
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    Default Good sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Mountainworx View Post
    The Coventry Vs EA Rafting Case features in my access video (for those that haven't yet seen it it's on my website)

    What I found by speaking to various user groups, and settling down on Fishermen and Canoeists etc is that from the one's I spoke to - they were fine. Only one angler around me has any issue. This would suggest he's in the minority. Now I know that's a bit of a general statement but I feel that its really just the minority that have much of an issue.

    I think that there are people on both sides who don't help the situation. As a matter of interest I was with some friends on the Leven in Cumbria last weekend. We came out through a field which is no longer the get-in. We were challenged by a passing angler, but nothing more than that, he let us past, we went past, we went home. No need to get all angry in his face, he was polite, and so were we.

    I actually agree with some environmental cases being allowed against both parties, be they kayakers or anglers. But what it really boils down to - for me anyway - is this:

    If both parties stopped backbiting and arguing with each other, and both went back to the landowners as a combined force, then the latter would really be in the S@ŁT. I reckon that landowners etc want us to argue amongst each other and therefore create a situation so that they don't have to do anything.

    Just my 2 pence. No doubt no everyone might agree with it.
    This must be one of the most sensible posts on the Access issue that has ever appeared on this forum. A lot of people complain about CE, but it might do our cause a lot more good if members got behind their local Access Officer and offer to help instead of just whingeing!
    'Life is Art, and not otherwise' C.S.Lewis

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    If we were truly democratic and considered the interests of every concerned party, and then had a vote on the matter, kayakers would win , as no doubt all the fish would be totally fins up for us. :-) So we are on the moral high ground here.

    i have never had any trouble with anglers, well actually I have. Sometimes we have to wait while they ferret around in those hideous bags they have full of writhing maggots and other unspeakable things for a camera.
    We have frightened a few though, as I have crept up quietly on a few who were snoozing, apparently in the dark the sound of a spaniel tail thwacking rhymically on my pfd is utterly terrifying. Or maybe it's just the fact that they are not used to females creeping up on them in the dark with club shaped objects in their hands. :-)

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    but it might do our cause a lot more good if members got behind their local Access Officer and offer to help instead of just whingeing!
    Sometimes they winge because the local access officers agree to restrictive agreements against CE policy...

  14. #14
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    Default Get involved

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicky View Post
    Sometimes they winge because the local access officers agree to restrictive agreements against CE policy...
    All the more reason to get involved and offer to support your local CE Access Officer - who is also a volunteer
    'Life is Art, and not otherwise' C.S.Lewis

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    Nigel, sometime support does not work when agreements are made by access officers and or Ce with are contory to there own stated policies. That was all I was saying. I have seen a lot in ther 26 years I have been involved with access issues not always for the best.

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