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Thread: Spring Creek sailing rig video.

  1. #1
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    Default Spring Creek sailing rig video.

    What does everyone think of this rig for a beginner?



    Seems to my untrained eye to be pretty solid and simple. I like the additional stability, that would be reassuring with family members aboard.

    I looked at getting a simpler setup, like a sail kit from Brookbank, but they don't ship to the USA. I'm not finding many canoe sailing resources this side of the pond.
    "It seems as if our children may someday read of the American wilderness - desert or any other kind - as we read of the lost Atlantis."
    -Edward Abbey

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    Parts of it, like the clamp system look quite strong and effective but the leeboard attachment looks rather insubstantial to my eyes. Ok for light winds but may not be up to stronger breezes. The "rudder" is limited in the angle it can be moved thro - could be a pain at times when you want to make a sharper turn and have to get a paddle out. The volume of the floats is quite small so again ok for light winds only. What's the cost?

  3. #3
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    Default The price of this rig...

    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    Parts of it, like the clamp system look quite strong and effective but the leeboard attachment looks rather insubstantial to my eyes. Ok for light winds but may not be up to stronger breezes. The "rudder" is limited in the angle it can be moved thro - could be a pain at times when you want to make a sharper turn and have to get a paddle out. The volume of the floats is quite small so again ok for light winds only. What's the cost?
    On the Spring Creek website they list the complete kit at $784 USD.
    "It seems as if our children may someday read of the American wilderness - desert or any other kind - as we read of the lost Atlantis."
    -Edward Abbey

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    So that's 500 of our pounds - quite a lot, but comparable to what we pay over here for a rig and some fittings. If I wanted to buy rig, leeboard, rudder and outriggers from Solway Dory it would add up to more than that, but would be stronger, of much better quality and provide much higher performance in a wider range of wind strengths.

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    Windorpaddle - Thanks for the input. After looking at some other rigs, I see what you mean about the rudder and the leeboard.

    I just came across another US supplier, BSD Balogh Sail Designs. What do you think of them? They are much more expensive.

    http://bsdsails.com/rigsCanoe.html
    "It seems as if our children may someday read of the American wilderness - desert or any other kind - as we read of the lost Atlantis."
    -Edward Abbey

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    Wow those BSD kits seem very expensive to me. For comparison by my calculations an Expedition Bermudan, Expedition Leeboard and mount and stern mounted rudder from Solway Dory would be $814 (obviously shipping and taxes would add to that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Wow those BSD kits seem very expensive to me. For comparison by my calculations an Expedition Bermudan, Expedition Leeboard and mount and stern mounted rudder from Solway Dory would be $814 (obviously shipping and taxes would add to that).
    Yeah, I thought they were awfully expensive too! I've contacted Solway Dory, just waiting for their reply. I don't know if they would ship to the USA. The choices for pre-built kits in the States just seems really limited.
    "It seems as if our children may someday read of the American wilderness - desert or any other kind - as we read of the lost Atlantis."
    -Edward Abbey

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    I have no direct experience of the Balogh stuff but I've heard they are very good (and rather expensive!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by plainsman View Post
    Yeah, I thought they were awfully expensive too! I've contacted Solway Dory, just waiting for their reply. I don't know if they would ship to the USA. The choices for pre-built kits in the States just seems really limited.
    I'm pretty sure Solway Dory have sent stuff across the pond in the past (to Triguy in Canada http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...n-35-High-Spec ). They're really busy at the moment (building me a new canoe amongst other things ) but I'm sure you'll hear from them soon.

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    We used to send rigs to the other side of the Atlantic, but we had to stop when 2 consignments in succession were damaged by the shippers and we were refused compensation.
    The only American rigs that i have seen that seem to be good quality are the Balloch rigs, but i have seen some others which i thought were not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    We used to send rigs to the other side of the Atlantic, but we had to stop when 2 consignments in succession were damaged by the shippers and we were refused compensation.
    The only American rigs that i have seen that seem to be good quality are the Balloch rigs, but i have seen some others which i thought were not.
    Thanks for the quick response Dave! I'm bummed that you can't ship over here, but I certainly understand why. I think I may just start trying to piece something together, instead of buying a whole kit. That should be a good learning experience!
    "It seems as if our children may someday read of the American wilderness - desert or any other kind - as we read of the lost Atlantis."
    -Edward Abbey

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    I am probably sticking my nose into somewhere where it doesn't belong... so if I am talking 'out of turn', forgive me.

    Plainsman, like you I researched (via the web, not from direct experience) and found all of the people selling sailing rigs for canoes (you missed Lost in Woods Boatworks in Canada). At the end of the day I felt that Solway Dory had a good product at a fair price (and the currency exchange was favourable at the time) and there was a ecosystem of people using the sailing gear and talking about (on this forum).

    I appreciated Dave's responses to my (many) questions, and my Solway Dory equipment (sail, rudder, lee board) arrived in Canada in great shape.

    So, Dave, I want to encourage you to find a solution to the shipping issue. You have a great product and people would be willing pay a bit more to ensure that the equipment arrives as you sent it. We realize that you are a small business and 'eating the costs' when deliveries are damaged is not something that is easy to absorb.

    Here are my thoughts.
    - is there an option to have additional insurance on the shipment that would be paid by the customer.

    - better packaging. In my case, there could have been more packaging between the rudder and the lee board, as the bolts on the rudder dug into the lee board (but nothing that couldn't be sanded out). But I think the rudder and lee board should be able to be very securely packaged to ensure that they don't get damanged. The real issue is the mast/sail. I thought using the cardboard tube was a grea idea... but I can see that it could be vulnerable to damage. I think you could use plumbing PVC piping - it would be very robust and wouldn't add too much more cost (but that cost could easily be absorbed by the customer)

    At the end of the day, Solway Dory has to decide how and who they do business with... but you have great products, and I want to encourage you not to leave out North America!

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    I have some Spring Creek gear. I picked up the universal receiver, the simpler/less expensive stabilizer floats (ethafoam), the portage wheels, and the rowing outriggers with oars. I have to say everything is substantial, well engineered and executed, corrosion resistant and very functional. I would purchase any of these items again.

    Having said that, I am in the process of trying to convert my canoe for sail. I agree with others that their sailrig strikes me as entirely recreational and not intended for serious use. Dave at Solway Dory has been so kind as to offer me much advice while planning my rig. If they bent 1/4' aluminum angle on their leeboard mounts I doubt Spring Creek's would hold up to much force. The mast step is just a press fit to the bottom of tha canoe. After much research I dismissed those parts of the sailrig. I do love the stuff I have. The floats pull in and up away from the water, or can be deployed out and down in seconds easily so I can stand and fish from the canoe. The rowing rig is awesome. You have to have substantial gunnels though. I had to replace the low profile aluminum ones on my rec canoe so the clamps would not pop off under pressure.

    BSD is well known and respected. I have seen their gear and would purchase it if my budget allowed.

    That brings me to Solway Dory. Dave has been so helpful to me, taking time and offering professional advice despite how busy he is. I've never held their gear, but what I see online tells the story. Especially the countless videos of their gear in action. I do so wish that an appropriate carrier could be sourced to allow shipment stateside. I must confess to know nothing of their business model, but wonder if they could find manufacturing/distribution channels elsewhere? Duckworks? I really wish they would at least sell plans as they once did but understand this may not be a best business practice. I am trying to emulate their products with available materials. "Kit" sales with requisite hardware and instruction would be great. Just add ash! I just don't see anything remotely similar on the US market. For me in my situation, an open canoe readily adaptable to sail and back again is the ticket. We need an OCSG here!

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    http://flic.kr/p/afs6mM
    Self made rowing seat with outriggers and oars converted to double paddle.

    http://flic.kr/p/afs61B
    Rowing rig

    http://flic.kr/p/afuTgG
    stabilizer floats


    http://flic.kr/p/afuSUb
    easily transported

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    Hi Guys, I did most of this sailing kit stuff way back with pics, have look on my (BigH) Canoe sailing kit thread. It Cost 150 in 2009. be safe. BigH

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    Hi bigH,

    Did you ever get the rig on either the canoe or 'yak? Although the price on the Wayland site has gone up it still looks pretty reasonable for a starter kit, but does it work?

    Regards

    Mike

    (Thwartsandall)

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    Hi Thwartandall, Sadly no, I have only had the Wayland Kayak out once this year, and blaming my old age, forgot the sail kit, and get this, the seats, I keep them in a separate bag, making three to remember, luckily I always have my canoe, so the trip was saved, It turned out to be a real crappy trip weather wise,wind and rain, still managed to get a bit of paddling in, but no sailing. Like I said when I posted the first report of the Wayland sail kit, you get a lot for your money, still do! Sorry I can not give any impassions on the sail kit, but one day? be safe, regards, BigH.


    Mike

    (Thwartsandall)[/QUOTE]

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    Thanks BigH, Maybe putting "1 of 3", etc. on your bags like couriers do on boxes might jolt the grey matter. I do that on my tent gear (it is embarrasing as a scout leader if you are not "prepared") and I'm just a "junior rating" by compare to your level of experience. Impressed you still went a-paddling without the seats! keep at it as long as you can. A friend of mine passed on his tent to our scout group when he gave up camping at 90 years young - you've a long way to go yet. Keep paddling ;-)

    As for the Wayland kit - as you rightly say, you'd struggle to do cover the material cost and do it your self, so time for me to put on the charm offensive to she who must be obeyed and present my cost benefit analysis. Was angling for a new canoe, might be able to persued that this is a far cheaper option!

  19. #19
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    "...for a beginner."

    I say get the product that will go the distance, no matter what stage of development you may find yourself at the present. The water doesn't care if you are a beginner.

    Not trying to start a war here but...that said, I have researched virtually every manufacturer, some with thouroughness, others superficially. There are few choices, IMO. For simple, safe recreational puddling about, balogh seems good enough, but prohibitively expensive. They have cool sails, but the outriggers and pontoons (floats)??? Uh uh.

    CLC has good kits if you want to go that route. Sailboatstogo? Nope. Too weak. Again, not sturdy enough. Most of the ready-to-go stuff isn't.

    Me? I ended up building my own, using a used Grumman sail kit but fab'ing all the other things that go with it, including substantial out riggers that will stand up to anything out there that is manufactured or professionally built. I've built two complete sets for different canoes and they have more than passed the wind tunnel test.

    It can be done with very little expense compared to buying the rig.

    Now, among the pro built products, I have to say that Solway Dory is far and away the very best, most ingenious gear that I have seen. Easily adaptable to many off the shelf canoes and they make the boats, too. They've pretty much written the book on this subject and aren't stopping anytime soon. If there is a way to obtain their products here, it would be money well spent if you think you can't or do not wish to build it your self. But I would also consider what canoe you have. You might be trying to put a tuxedo on a Nebraska hog.



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    Nice rig Outnbacker! I've got a SF Pete 16'. The design errs towards sailing and ther back end was extended and blunted to accept a rudder. Whilst I'm not precious about what the rig looks like, I don't want to fork out Solway Dory money for something that may not get that level of use, but don't want it looking like a binliner strapped to a broomhandle either! I don't doubt at all you get what you pay for, but can't justify that kind of cash. My DIY skills are limited, so the Wayland rig looks best value for money. I'll let you know if SWMBO approves the transaction!!! Cheers!

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    Thwartsandall,

    Thanks, and good luck with that Charm Offensive. I have tasted defeat, and it is bitter and woeful.

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    I agree with OutnBacker, I too am a newbie to the sailing canoe concept, but have some experience with small sailboats. Based on the input from OutnBacker and others to my thread on putting together a clamp-on sailing rig, I'm confident I can manage the task. Let me be perfectly clear, I am not an engineer, there is ample information available for determining the CE for placement of the leeboard/sail, how to attach things to your boat(check out Bradshaw's book on canoe rigs)as well as design things, the list is extensive. I'm not a finished wood worker, but I can measure twice and cut, I can sand and apply finishes, I know how to glue things together and so forth. I'm not an experienced canoeist, but again I agree, there are many options available both new and used when it comes to the "most" suitable canoe for sailing. For example, I have a new Merrimack Tennessean which I could probably setup for sailing, but it's only 14.5' long, so a little cramped if I want to take a passenger along, and my wife would kill me for drilling any holes in this beautiful canoe. I now am looking into a good used royalex or aluminum canoe(the tried and proven Grumman 17). But first I am going to attempt to fabricate my own pontoons/stabilizers/outriggers, whatever you want to call them. This is a more complex task involving some wood working, shaping of foam, use of epoxy and fiberglassing. Since I can't afford to buy a kit ready to install, and don't feel the aforementioned cheap kit is worth the money, if I want a sailing canoe, I have to find a good used appropriate canoe, and then put together the sailing rig components. I will have to purchase materials, hardware and a sail, yet for far less than buying a ready to install rig. There is another part of this project that I feel should be explained, the idea of taking on a challenging project you've never tried before. Naturally it will take me more time, and I'm sure I'll make some mistakes, but we learn from our mistakes. I'll have a lot less invested if I screw something up, certainly less than the Spring Creek kit, which just isn't well designed compared to the successful kits from Balogh and Solway. If I take advantage of the willing folks on this site who will share with me what they did, how they did it, and use a little common sense, and some trial and error, I think this project will be most rewarding. To be fair, the Spring Creek kit is probably fine for very light use. There are some that will argue Balogh is over priced and some of their designs are not as good as what they cost. I'm sure some would say the same about Solway too. CLC has a lot of good information to offer too, and some of their products(stitch and glue kits)are well designed, but they're not inexpensive either. They offer classes and hands on instruction to build their kits, which is a great service. They offer a kayak/canoe sailing kit, but it's expensive and you have to do the build yourself, or pay to attend their classes. If they were next door, that might not be too bad, but those who have to travel, eat and sleep during the class adds to the cost. Bradshaws book on canoe rigs is well worth the money, he does a great job of explaining and provides detailed drawings, even some measurements. I think it all boils down to what you are willing to invest in time as well as money to setup your own sailing canoe. I firmly believe if we do things correctly, use examples that are available here and else where, use good quality materials, you can put together as nice a rig as you want. I don't have the canoe yet, but I have the time and budget to attempt building a set of pontoons. I know I'll need them anyway, plus they represent the most complex part of the components I need to build. I like starting with the hard things first. If I fail in my first attempt, I can quit or try again. I remodeled a 100 year old house 12 years ago, didn't know a thing about wood working, but I developed enough skills and self confidence to move on to fiberglassing and more finished wood working with this opportunity to build my own sailing components. I'll post photos as I move along, even the mistakes, it's all about learning….hope this helps.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayrel View Post
    the Spring Creek kit, which just isn't well designed compared to the successful kits from Balogh and Solway. If I take advantage of the willing folks on this site who will share with me what they did, how they did it, and use a little common sense, and some trial and error, I think this project will be most rewarding. To be fair, the Spring Creek kit is probably fine for very light use. There are some that will argue Balogh is over priced and some of their designs are not as good as what they cost. I'm sure some would say the same about Solway too.
    I am a fully qualified ex-military airframes engineer and have the skills to make most things, but when it came to obtaining some outriggers, I didn't give buying a set from Solway Dory a second thought. The time and expense it would take me to produce a set and achieve a level of quality equal to what these guys produce would have cost me more in real terms!! They are quite simply a work of art to the very highest possible standards. I am so pleased with them, I have made a soft cover for them so they are transported safely in the car or trailer.



    Sometimes, it's a good idea to know when it is better to just bite the financial bullet and pay the experts to produce something that will enhance the appearance of your canoe, will give many years of faithful service, will save your life when the chips are down and will hold their value should you decide to sell your canoe/ boat. Oh and best of all, you don't need the stress, frustration, the purchasing and wasting of materials that could be thrown away later, trying to build your own just to save 50 or 100 quid/ bucks! (Delete as appropriate)

    Don't get me wrong, I have built loads of things for my canoe including half the rudder system, a sailing rig, a retractable capsize recovery float, my canoe trailer etc. etc., but something like the SD outriggers, well they are in a class of their own.

  24. #24
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    Yup, they are indeed very well made. And they are so cute, all snuggly in those little sleepy bags.

    But I must respectfully disagree on the value of building it yourself. In the end, it isn't aircraft engineering, it's just craft. But I hear what you're saying, Steamerpoint. There is something to be said for just moving forward and getting out on the water.

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    I know it's not aircraft engineering, but my point is that my pair of outriggers including the laminated bent beam and postage came to around 300. (Current prices may have changed) but to buy the materials alone would have cost me 30 or 40% of this price. How much time does it take and what about the specialist tools and molds they have had to make/ buy to produce these things.

    Look at the photos of my bent beam. The plys have been glued/ laminated in a mold at the correct angle and this prevents the beam from straightening out over time. This beam is also light as a feather and stronger than it needs to be.





    Sure, straight wooden planks would have worked too, but the bent beams get the outriggers out of the water so the canoe sails faster, especially when running. They allow the canoe behave like a dinghy so roll tacking is possible.

    The outrigger floats have just the right amount of buoyancy to prevent the canoe from capsizing in general use, but not too much buoyancy that you can't right a capsized canoe should an unusually strong gust one day tip you over.

    You might be tempted to make a wooden rudder or a wooden leeboard, but you would generally buy your canoe rather than make one yourself. In my opinion, outriggers like the SD versions are something you would buy too, in my humble opinion.

  26. #26
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    I certainly agree as to the quality of the product, and to the fact that your back yard (or, garden) is nicer than mine, but I maintain that an average guy with average tools and a bit of knowledge of e-glassing, can build a very strong and worthy set of outriggers. Fly is simply achieved by the use of kerf cuts, glassed up strong. Or, build the pontoons less deep, so they clear the water most of the time on a run. But yes, a home build-up is not for everyone, for a variety of reasons.

    Well, I must be off. There is snow in the passes, and my load is heavy. And, there be idiots.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutnBacker View Post
    I certainly agree as to the quality of the product, and to the fact that your back yard (or, garden) is nicer than mine
    I've got my wife to thank for the garden as it's her main hobby. Personally I prefer sailing.

    Of course, it always comes down to ability, available time, the tools and equipment you have access to, the finished quality you want/ can achieve and cost.

    I'm sure the guys working in Solway Dory wouldn't dream of buying a pair of Balogh or Spring Creek outriggers when they have all the technical knowledge, tools and ability to make them, whereas most people don't. It's a case of balancing all the points and each person will be different and come out with a different conclusion.

    Take care in them passes.

  28. #28
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    I survived the passes.

    Steamerpoint, I must check my ancestry on the English side. Surely, we are long lost relatives, thinking alike as to domestic priorities. I built my back yard quite similar to yours, then said to my wife, "That's it. It's all yours. I'm going sailing." Since then I have had at least eight or nine canoes, four sailing canoes/tri rigs, and three trailerable sloops from 15 to 22 feet. I built the Asian garden enclosure extra tall to give her privacy and to keep her from seeing what I'm doing on the outside. So far, so good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OutnBacker View Post
    I survived the passes.
    Good to hear.

    Distant cousins by the sounds of it. I planted a small tree this year for, She who must be obeyed, to provide her with some privacy from a window of the house next door. Fingers crossed I will now be able to buy a few more canoes.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Good to hear.

    Distant cousins by the sounds of it. I planted a small tree this year for, She who must be obeyed, to provide her with some privacy from a window of the house next door. Fingers crossed I will now be able to buy a few more canoes.
    Beware of The Rules of Encroachment regarding the plantings. ...and I don't mean complaints from your neighbors. When I built the back yard, the Wife Unit wanted a planting area. "I don't plant", I said. Instead, I went into the house and found a 'Post-it' pad with those tiny two inch stickies. On it, I wrote a "Deed" giving her claim to a strip 4ft X 30ft next to the house. "Do with it whatever. I'm going sailing."

    Some seventeen years later, The She has completely taken over the patio area and the Deeded portion has grown to include virtually every nook and cranny. But the true horror is that she has managed to leverage herself a spot in my shop for her car and all the "seasonal pretties" that she doesn't want to keep in the house. She still has the post-it note. Oi vay....

  31. #31
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    [QUOTEtacker;509778]Thwartsandall,

    Thanks, and good luck with that Charm Offensive. I have tasted defeat, and it is bitter and woeful.[/QUOTE]

    OutnBacker

    Haven't lost my touch. The missus wants to go on a sugar craft workshop, so I chose that moment to negotiate my terms and will have a Wayland rig by spring. Must be a lucky day as someone gave me a simple pole rig today which should keep me going til then! Will post a review once I've had a play!
    Thwartsandall

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    Keep us posted on your experiences with Wayland. They recently took over production of Klepper kayaks, I believe.
    Did you buy from their local importer, or direct from Poland?
    Ian

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    Will do Ian - there seems a lot of interests in this rig. Looks great for the money - even at the new prices. I contacted the UK distributor in Reading, so just waiting for a quote back.

    Mike

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    Don't forget to check how long it will take them to supply the rig, if that may be important to you. There were some concerns expressed at one point on foldingkayaks.org that Wayland were having trouble fulfilling orders for their kayaks in a reasonable length of time. It was suggested that this might have been exacerbated by their taking on the Klepper business. That was over the last year or so, so hopefully they will have got over it by now. Simon (the UK distributor) should hopefully be able to give you a better idea. I have an older Wayland kayak (Harpoon, bought secondhand off ebay; my views on its merits and demerits can be found by searching on foldingkayaks.org) and have corresponded with Simon in the past. He seems a nice chap and obviously has by now got long experience of dealing with the Polish end of the operation.
    I keep meaning to drop him a line to inquire about a seasock for the kayak.
    Good luck with your inquiries and purchase.
    Ian

    PS I'm a satisfied user of a Solway Dory 35' expedition lugsail which I occasionally use on an Apache 16' in a simple paddle-sailing configuration. My Wayland Harpoon came with a downwind rig, which I've never used. The Solway Dory kit seems in my not particularly experienced view better quality, but it is, as you point out, more expensive.
    Last edited by idc; 14th-January-2014 at 12:35 PM.

  35. #35
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    Sail finally ordered with the very helpful Simon at Wayland. I told him about SOTP and reviewing the rig and he'd be interested to fin out how it works on an open canoe too. even checked with the factory that the leeboard thwart was easy enough to be adapted. Impressed so far. As IDC says 10-12 week wait is a "just in case", but for now we wait.......... and go and play with a cheap home made expedition rig instead! (Surprising how quickly a little sail can move you!)

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