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Thread: More Leeboard ?'s why not one shorter one each side & other ?'s

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    Default More Leeboard ?'s why not one shorter one each side & other ?'s

    A few more leeboard questions...... My sail will be a reefable SD Bermudan Expedition.


    I am making a leeboard and could without much extra effort make one for each side. This would mean they could be shorter. This might have the following advantages .... or not . The fact folk don't have one leeboard each side suggests there is no advantage or maybe disadvantages outweigh ?

    1. 2 shorter ones maybe useful in shallow water and avoid a few more underwater obstructions or kelp beds ?

    2. Also when the boat tips the total leebord area in the water would remain the same with one each side ?

    3. The boards can be lighter & don't need to be as robust as less force acting on them ?

    A related question is I see folk suggesting leeboard area in water should be about 2 % of total sail area. Easy if I opt for a leeboard each side, but if I have only one I am unsure how much extra to allow , I suspect I will only be sailing in gentle breezes for the forseable future.

    4. On a different issue I could easily make the distance of the leeboard from the mast variable, would this have any advantages , say for different sail areas / wind conditions?

    Thanks

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    In answer to some of your questions (in bold) .....

    Quote Originally Posted by seabeggar View Post
    A few more leeboard questions...... My sail will be a reefable SD Bermudan Expedition.

    I am making a leeboard and could without much extra effort make one for each side. This would mean they could be shorter. This might have the following advantages .... or not . The fact folk don't have one leeboard each side suggests there is no advantage or maybe disadvantages outweigh ?

    1. 2 shorter ones maybe useful in shallow water and avoid a few more underwater obstructions or kelp beds ? In practice the amount of sailing I've done in water shallower than the length of a leeboard is negligible. And I have sailed a few creeks and estuaries in the South.

    2. Also when the boat tips the total leebord area in the water would remain the same with one each side ? I can't discern any difference between one tack and the other. I sail a Solway Dory Shearwater

    3. The boards can be lighter & don't need to be as robust as less force acting on them ? Maybe, but I'd guess not as heavy as one longer board, and don't forget the leeboard mounting bracket needs to be fairly substantial.

    A related question is I see folk suggesting leeboard area in water should be about 2 % of total sail area. Easy if I opt for a leeboard each side, but if I have only one I am unsure how much extra to allow , I suspect I will only be sailing in gentle breezes for the forseable future.

    4. On a different issue I could easily make the distance of the leeboard from the mast variable, would this have any advantages , say for different sail areas / wind conditions?

    Thanks
    Dave S will be beter able to answer your questions but I know those who have tried twin leeboards have gone back to one - less weight, less faff and no loss of performance I think.
    Last edited by GavinM; 13th-May-2012 at 04:20 PM.

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    2 Boards will work, but will be twice the work ,need 2 brackets to hold them and will weigh more than one long one. One long board is the normal way of doing it in the UK. A long board will leave one side of the canoe free for coming alongside another canoe in a supported rescue, or coming alongside a jetty. The long board can be angled back further, to reduce weatherhelm when running.
    2% is a bit small for an efficient leeboard. 4 or 5% would be better.

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    My long leeboard has been bashed loads of times this week when coming ashore! Rocks just below the waterline in front of what looks like soft sandy/ gravel beaches leads to a false sense of security and before I know it, my leeboard has hit something and is nearly twisting the thwart off my canoe!!

    Another point, while on Lock Locky, I sailed right over a shallow bit, which was easy 100-meters from the shoreline and I had to jump out of the canoe to avoid damaging the canoe. It all happened so quick, I would not have had the time to loosen the leeboard off and it was quicker to lighten the load grabbing the gunwale to hold the canoe while jumping out. This was the only time I had any moments of the whole trip. There was a buoy indicating the shallow water, but generally these shallow bits apply to the big ships, not a lightweight flat bottom canoe. Not in this case though!

    A single leeboard allows you to easily adjust the centre of effort when paddle sailing and might be harder to do with two leeboards, but a lower depth of two leeboards is a huge advantage in my opinion.

    I would look at the places you are most likely to sail and whether paddle sailing without a rudder is likely. If you are sailing where there is a fair risk of bottoming out a long leeboard in shallow water and you always use a rudder, I would go for two short leeboards personally, otherwise visa versa.

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    Useless bit of info. Commercial sailing vessels, Thames Barges, Dutch barges and fishing vessels have two lee boards, but deploy only the one on the side away from the wind, surprisingly the "lee board". Loading stresses on the upper pivot are reduced as the hull /leaboard interface is in compresion and the pivot is in tension. I would imagine, never having sailed an open canoe, but being familiar with the friction within the case of a centre board, that twisting loads on the pivot fixing must be high when your leeboard is actually a windward board. and proportionally higher the deeper / longer the board. Whether this would make for increased complexity would surely depend on how much you inted to sail, and how often go to windward and tack. You could, of course with two, angle each one, front towards the centreline, thus giving lift to windward. There is at least one pocket cruiser design that has two "off centre" boards positioned in order to clear the cabin area of centre board or dagger board cases, and the Mini Transat sailing boats which have canting keels, have angled dagger boards to provide lift and sideways resistance to reduce leeway. This , with enourmous load and complexity may be found in the big 60ft monohulls racing the single and two handed ocean circuit.

    Of course, I'm on record here of believing that if you want to go sailing, you want a purpose designed sailing boat. but then there are people who ride monocyles, and race tricycles, so each to his own.

    Impcanoe
    (Imp being International 10sq metre sailing canoe , sail number 60, I once owned. More details of the class by searching International canoe or IC on a website such as Yachtsandyachting.com)

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    If you sail with the leeboard clamped up really tight you're obviously going to damage it by running aground but there's no need to do this. The leeboard pivot only needs enough tension on it to prevent it rotating by accident, I sail with mine "finger tight" and on the occasions that I've clipped a rock, hit the beach etc it's just kicked up with no damage to the leeboard and virtually no stress on the leeboard thwart. I often have to nip it up a bit tighter when running and reaching as it starts to swing back on it's own without the pressure of preventing leeway but that's fine as I want it canted back then (and once it is leaned back it's less likely to get damaged by an obstruction anyway). I had far more scary moments (and some damage) while using the clip on leeboard which although shorter didn't have the facility to kick up on my set up. I don't think it's an accident that all the boats that I've seen in the OCSG have a single pivoting leeboard, it's simple and it works.

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    In the past i have tried 2 shorter boards, canted inwards, that i swapped on each tack. They certainly worked and the canoe pointed high when going to windward. But they had to be changed over on each tack which was a pain and annoyance, and they didn't work well when running downwind as it lifted the canoe sideways when you didn't want it. The long board angled back at 45 degrees makes the canoe behave when running downwind, especially in strong winds.
    I have been sailing canoes for nearly 20years and have run into many underwater obstacles but have never managed to break a board or damage the single pivot A single board is used by sailors in the OCSG because it is the best compromise that works. Other things also work, but usually the downsides are greater.
    Steamerpoint's advice that "he would go for 2 boards" is based on what experience? I think he has only ever had one.

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    Is there another benefit to angling the lee board back when running downwind other then reducing the drag Dave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Steamerpoint's advice that "he would go for 2 boards" is based on what experience? I think he has only ever had one.
    Dave, I never said anything about having two leeboards that angle inwards, I said that I can't see a reason why the gentleman couldn't have two short leeboards on each side of his canoe if he is likely to operate in shallow water, but if he wants to set the leeboard position for paddle sailing, two would be a pain to adjust. If they were parallel short leeboards that he puts down into the water and forgets about them, what's the problem?

    I don't dislike my pivoting leeboard in anyway and have found it excellent for paddle sailing in calm winds as I can set it easily, but I have at times regretted it's length when it comes into contact with a shallow unseen object.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    I would imagine, never having sailed an open canoe ....... Of course, I'm on record here of believing that if you want to go sailing, you want a purpose designed sailing boat. but then there are people who ride monocyles, and race tricycles, so each to his own.
    So you wouldn't know that a cruising sailing canoe can be a 'purpose designed' very seaworthy sailing boat which can outsail many cruising dinghies? And do on occasion.
    Last edited by GavinM; 18th-May-2012 at 05:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post

    Of course, I'm on record here of believing that if you want to go sailing, you want a purpose designed sailing boat. but then there are people who ride monocyles, and race tricycles, so each to his own.

    Not forgetting recumbents!

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    Quote Originally Posted by unk tantor View Post
    Not forgetting recumbents!
    Ha the recumbent connection rears it's head again!
    An open mind is a wonderful thing............

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    Quote Originally Posted by unk tantor View Post
    Is there another benefit to angling the lee board back when running downwind other then reducing the drag Dave?
    When the board is vertical the canoe should have a bit of weatherhelm. This is safe when going upwind as when hit by a gust the canoe will tend to turn into the wind and spill the wind , depowering it. When running downwind, especially in strong winds and waves, this weatherhelm is dangerous. A gust will tend to heel the canoe, increasing the weatherhelm and turn the canoe across the wind making a broach or capsize very likely. Angling the board back at 45 degrees moves the centre of lateral resistance backwards, which will give the canoe lee helm. This helps the canoe to track downwind.
    You could also do this with two shorter boards, but it will not move the centre of lateral resistance back enough, so will not be as safe.
    Lifting the board right up so it is out of the water is also possible, and this may reduce the drag in lighter winds. However, in strong winds and waves, the canoe can roll badly and again lose stabilty and make a broach likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Dave, I never said anything about having two leeboards that angle inwards, I said that I can't see a reason why the gentleman couldn't have two short leeboards on each side of his canoe if he is likely to operate in shallow water, but if he wants to set the leeboard position for paddle sailing, two would be a pain to adjust. If they were parallel short leeboards that he puts down into the water and forgets about them, what's the problem?

    I don't dislike my pivoting leeboard in anyway and have found it excellent for paddle sailing in calm winds as I can set it easily, but I have at times regretted it's length when it comes into contact with a shallow unseen object.
    The previous comment about angling the two leeboards inwards, and having to change them over, and the problems that this causes was in answer to Impcanoe. Assymetric boards can be very efficient and for racing boats can give an advantage upwind, but only when you have plenty of spare crew to change them over when tacking.
    2 Short boards are less efficient than one long one (which is probably why the old fashioned bi-planes and tri-planes of the first world war are no more i assume?) They clutter both sides of the canoe which is bad news when coming up against a jetty, or more importantly, when coming alongside another canoe to assist in capsize recovery. The shorter boards are not as safe when running downwind in strong wind and waves. They cost more to make and need 2 brackets and pivots etc.
    Apart from that they work fine.
    Yes they will sail in shallower water than one long one if you leave them down, but it is easy enough to angle them back to lower the depth and they still work.

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    So you wouldn't know that a cruising sailing canoe can be a 'purpose designed' very seaworthy sailing boat which can outsail many cruising dinghies? And do on occasion.
    Last edited by Peregrine; Today at 05:34 PM.


    i think this is going down the same route as the Aglesey Offshore race thread went last year. I have long known that boats pointed at both ends are referred to as canoe stern or canoe shape, and hence no doubt there are boats specially designed for such purposes.

    In the same way, as length is one of the characteristics of a design that affects speed, a 20ft "canoe" is likely to be faster than a 10ft short stubby mirror dinghy. However, it would appear from my reading of this site, that it is unlikely to have the stability to carry sufficient sail to be faster than a 20 ft dinghy, unless it has out riggers, or a sliding seat, or a trapeze, at which point it ceases to be an open canoe, and it is unlikely to be "dry" enough to be equally seaworthy unless it is decked in some way, when again it ceases to be an OC.

    To return to my point about two lee boards, Thames Barges, short ones of which are 90ft long, were crewed comercially, by a man and a boy (and perhaps a dog), and they managed to lift one board and lower the other, their boards being exceedingly large and heavy.

    I do understand the advantage of being able to coble up a sailing rig to help on long voyages, and I realise that there is a strong following for open canoe sailing. I just don't get it, but then I'm a dinghy and yacht sailor of 60 years standing, a river runner for 40 years, but an open canoeist for only 3. No doubt further posts will continue my enlightenment.

    Impcanoe

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    Funnily enough this thread
    Thread: V2 Rocket

    Has a phto of a Thmaes Barge for those unfamiliar.

    Impcanoe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    So you wouldn't know that a cruising sailing canoe can be a 'purpose designed' very seaworthy sailing boat which can outsail many cruising dinghies? And do on occasion.
    Last edited by Peregrine; Today at 05:34 PM.


    i think this is going down the same route as the Aglesey Offshore race thread went last year. I have long known that boats pointed at both ends are referred to as canoe stern or canoe shape, and hence no doubt there are boats specially designed for such purposes.

    In the same way, as length is one of the characteristics of a design that affects speed, a 20ft "canoe" is likely to be faster than a 10ft short stubby mirror dinghy. However, it would appear from my reading of this site, that it is unlikely to have the stability to carry sufficient sail to be faster than a 20 ft dinghy, unless it has out riggers, or a sliding seat, or a trapeze, at which point it ceases to be an open canoe, and it is unlikely to be "dry" enough to be equally seaworthy unless it is decked in some way, when again it ceases to be an OC.

    I do understand the advantage of being able to coble up a sailing rig to help on long voyages, and I realise that there is a strong following for open canoe sailing. I just don't get it, but then I'm a dinghy and yacht sailor of 60 years standing, a river runner for 40 years, but an open canoeist for only 3. No doubt further posts will continue my enlightenment.
    I refer you to another thread, http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...hlight=starlit , which might give some idea of the capabilities of sailing canoes. The account refers to my decked sailing canoe. However, I know there are some open sailing canoes which are almost, if not equally seaworthy, by virtue of their lightness and ability to rise over waves. Windorpaddles's open canoe is a good example - which proved equally capable as mine in sometimes boisterous conditions last summer in the Hebrides. I suppose some might argue that a sailing canoe with outriggers (or amas) is a trimaran but to my mind a sailing canoe with mini amas out of the water most of the time is still a sailing canoe and in any case it would be a mistake to get stuck on semantics.

    The point is, sailing canoes can be seriously seaworthy sailing boats which are lightweight, easily transported and capable of being effectively paddled as well as sailed. They are very much in keeping with the 19th Century long distance cruising sailing canoe ancestors of International Sailing Canoes (the former sailed on long voyages by John MacGregor, Robert Louis Stevenson, Warrington Baden Powell, and Uffa Fox in the 20th century).

    And then there's ocean going Polynesian sailing canoes with outriggers.

    I'm about to see how much of Britain I can sail round in a sailing canoe, this summer. If I make it as far as Anglesey you'd be welcome to join me for a sail.
    Last edited by GavinM; 19th-May-2012 at 12:14 AM.

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    By way of a bit more explanation; the 'Open Canoe Sailing Group' includes members with decked sailing canoes and open sailing canoes. The common factor amongst these boats is their portability, ability to be paddled at a reasonable speed and good upwind and downwind sailing performance*. However, like all sailing boats there are compromises. My decked sailing canoe, at one end of the spectrum, is able to cope well with coastal passages but is heavy at just over 100 lbs unrigged and the paddling performance is slightly compromised by the weight of the boat and fairly wide side decks. At the other end of the scale, conventional canadian canoes with more minimal rigs, like Solway Dory's excellent expedition rig, and with a simple leeboard, make no paddling compromises yet sail very well and are easier to portage or get on and off a roofrack. Open sailing canoes are generally less capable of coping with rough sea conditions (with a few exceptions like the 18' open sailing canoe mentioned above), but are very at home on lakes, rivers and sheltered coastal waters (and on the open sea in for short passages in light to moderate conditions).

    As a yacht and dinghy sailor of 40 years standing, I was similarly sceptical about the whole notion of sailing canoes and after 6 years of sailing them I'm still surprised at their potential. A recent discovery for me, has been 'paddle sailing' in light winds - with the rudder raised and using sail / leeboard positioning, boat trim and the paddle to steer. In this way it's sometimes possible to maintain over 3 knots with ease in force 1 to 2 winds. Having a single long leeboard which I can easily pivot fore and aft, enables me to balance the turning effect of paddle strokes with either weather helm or lee helm, depending which side I'm paddling from ................. hoping I've also vaguely steered this thread back on track?

    *'Cobbled together' rigs are usually no use for upwind sailing and no-one in the Open Minded Sailing Canoe Group uses them.
    Last edited by GavinM; 19th-May-2012 at 08:00 AM.

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    Up to a point, I've no issue with the concerns raised in the Anglesea Off-Shore Dinghy Race thread being endlessly revisited (at least so long as we don't derail otherwise productive discussions). That's on two fronts:
    1. Even as a devotee of taking them out on the salty stuff... I'd be the first to acknowledge serious seaworthiness issues with "traditional" open canoes: concerns that merit wider attention.
    2. Over two decades or more, leading lights in the Open Canoe Sailing Group strike me as having come up with responses which warrant regular showcasing for a wider audience.

    As on the AODR thread (and elsewhere), I'm going to agree with Peter that there's a conceptual flaw at the heart of the very notion of an "open" canoe being "seaworthy": the damn great hole in the top that's so good at letting in water. As I noted in the 12' boat thread, I see this as a major issue for paddling, let alone for sailing. Screw up even slightly and you're swamped, whether on the river (let's assume with a paddle) or on open water (with or without a sail) - and as Lloyd noted recently, the paltry airbags conventionally fitted to "trad" open canoes in this country, in addition to being no substitute for skills and experience, make only minimal difference to how much water is held in a swamped canoe - and having been out a number of times with waves coming in over one gunwale and disappearing out over the other, I can testify to this!

    So where does that leave us? Heading for sea kayaks or small yachts for any truly challenging open water canoeing? Maybe. On the other hand, this does perhaps leave us (in Peter's phrasing) getting away from the "open" bit of an open canoe: we perhaps start venturing into even more extensive airbagging than that used for serious white water trad-canoeing (so we can paddle swamped)... or we may get into fabric decks such as these:



    For sailing purposes, we could still start with an open canoe... but if we want to be confident in exposed coastal waters then we might want to aim at the standard of specialist conversion that Keith's managed on his Penobscott:



    Note: the video might need updating at some point as Keith's just started experimenting with a new fabric for-deck.

    Take the matter further and you're onto something that's quite clearly VERY seaworthy... but which makes no claims to be an "open" canoe:



    If we accept all the above, what's left is Peter's scepticism about the value of starting with a canoe when one could start with a sea kayak (cue ) or opt for a tried and tested dinghy such as a Wayfarer. That's another argument entirely... but I'd suggest the answer comes on assorted (related) fronts, including:
    • More easily driven... so works with smaller (cheaper) rig and sails and comparatively small force-loadings (with all that implies about being dependable and easy to maintain in an expedition situation);
    • Can be paddled effectively... so no need for an outboard when the wind dies (and no reliance on a motor in the event of rig failure);
    • Can be paddle sailed at a good lick... so ideal for making great progress in light winds (where many dinghies would struggle);
    • More compact and portable: can be hauled up on a beach way more easily than a dinghy - and even portaged to the other side of a headland / island in the event of getting pinned in by a storm;

    Keith, Dave, Gavin and others can doubtless extend that list... but to re-iterate, I'd see these as applying to a canoe that's {a} in capable hands; and {b} somewhat transformed from the bare hull or minimally outfitted affair we commonly see in blogs on this site.

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    Just been playing around with an idea last night and think I might have something worth sharing and open for discussion.

    One thing I liked about the small clip-on leeboard that I bought from Solway Dory was that the inner edge nearest the canoe was rounded with a greater surface area than on the flatter outer edge. This undoutedly created some lift on the inner side of the leeboard and helped it into wind. The problem is that it needed swapping over on every tack, plus it would lift up when running. The rounded profile shape also had to work in both directions so it couldn't be the perfect aerofoil wing shape. With two short leeboards this could be possible as they would remain on the correct side at all times.

    Okay, I can see some of the more experienced sailors thinking already, that's no good because when the canoe is flat and level going in a straight line, both these leeboards would be pulling towards each other creating drag and slowing you down and these people would be right, unless......

    Only create the aerofoil shape on the upper section of the leeboard above the waterline. That way when the canoe is flat and level, the lower sections of the leeboards just act neutrally in the way a normal centre board or leeboard does, but when the canoe is heeled over, the leeboard on one side digs in deeper and the aerofoil shape on that side begins to work, counteracting the forces that are heeling the canoe.

    The two leeboards could be shorter than the long SD pivoting leeboard, so grounding them should be less of a problem for those operating in shallow water, they can be lowered and forgotten about unlike the old clip-on leeboard that needed switching over on every tack, the clever aerofoil top section can improve performance and the canoe will have the same amount to leeboard in the water on both tacks with the same amount of drag and grip.

    The downside is that when paddle sailing, you have two leeboards to set instead of one, plus there are two leeboards to avoid when paddling/ coming alongside a jetty/ other canoe. I just thought I would share this idea and open it up for comment. Below are a few crude sketches to show what I am trying to suggest.




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    Never really had much off a problem with grounding my single long leeboard. Sure, I bump it occasionally but have never done any real damage. Your idea sounds plausible but needs to be tried out in practice. Are you going to make twin leeboards?

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    I will watch your development with interest steamerpoint. The most alarming time my leeboard hit something it turned out to be a thornback ray. I don't know if twin leeboards could of avoided that collision.

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    I've never had any issues with a leeboard getting or causing damage in shallow water/rocks etc - the right amount of friction is the key thing; enough to keep it in place but still able to kick up when required - just as jurassic says above.

    The double shorter leeboard idea is interesting but I doubt that it would be effective enough to bother - not enough area in the water, it would be fighting with the hull shape/grip and anyway the boat should be sailed as flat as possible (not always easy but if you're heeling all the time then you have too much sail up, or you need to eat more pies!)

    I tried a double leeboard setup on a previous canoe, including having each foil asymmetrical shaped to provide lift to windward. It worked quite well but I didn't persist with it due to the hassle of having to swap them at each tack. The best and most pragmatic solution (and mostly used on both sides of the Atlantic it would seem - by ACA and OCSG canoe- sailors) is to use one good board and keep it stuck in the water as much as possible, by keeping the heeling to a minimum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    not enough area in the water, it would be fighting with the hull shape/grip and anyway the boat should be sailed as flat as possible (not always easy but if you're heeling all the time then you have too much sail up, or you need to eat more pies!)
    Hmm... yes Keith, I see your point and another thing I have just noticed is that when the aerofoil part of the leeboard is actually in the water, it will be angled over trying to lift the canoe out of the water, rather than up wind!! Great if you want to build a hydrofoil canoe though! Hmm....

    Right off to do some video editing of our Scottish trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Hmm... yes Keith, I see your point and another thing I have just noticed is that when the aerofoil part of the leeboard is actually in the water, it will be angled over trying to lift the canoe out of the water, rather than up wind!! Great if you want to build a hydrofoil canoe though! Hmm....
    Come on Chris, we want to see the first Moth/Canoe hybrid!

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    Right ho

    i am going to withdraw. I've learnt a lot in the last few posts, not least a number of points regarding decks, boyancy and seaworthyness. I can see, in particlar, the advantages of being able to carry up a beach and car top. I remain convinced that our stance at Red Wharf Bay regarding seaworthyness is a reasonable one, and that a cut off speed for the slowest is most easily defined by an accredited Portsmouth Yardstick number. I remain very sceptical about the number used at the Lord Birket when I competed.

    Despite every effort to get someone else to do it, I remain also the Principle Race Officer for the Anglesey Offshore Dinghy Race, and my view regarding entry of open canoes, single hull or trimaran, remains the same.

    If a group of canoeists wish to sail in these rough waters, I might be able to help by putting the group in touch with a suitable support boat., although with the cost of fuel these days, and the consumption of large outboards, it is unlikely to be a freebie.

    To paraphrase our gracious Queen "good luck to all who sail in them"

    Impcanoe

  27. #27
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    From ImpCanoe - I remain very sceptical about the number used at the Lord Birket when I competed.
    I'm very curious to know more about the basis for your scepticism. While we do not have a formal Portsmouth Number due to insufficient data, quite a few of us have raced formally and informally with mixed fleets over the last 20 years in a variety of conditions and have consistently concluded the performance is similar to a Topper (1297) or Mirror (1385) - hence guestimating at 1300 for entering the Birkett regatta.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Come on Chris, we want to see the first Moth/Canoe hybrid!
    If I could borrow Keith's 5M sail, it might actually be possible.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    South Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impcanoe View Post
    Right ho

    i am going to withdraw. I've learnt a lot in the last few posts, not least a number of points regarding decks, boyancy and seaworthyness. I can see, in particlar, the advantages of being able to carry up a beach and car top. I remain convinced that our stance at Red Wharf Bay regarding seaworthyness is a reasonable one, and that a cut off speed for the slowest is most easily defined by an accredited Portsmouth Yardstick number. I remain very sceptical about the number used at the Lord Birket when I competed.

    Despite every effort to get someone else to do it, I remain also the Principle Race Officer for the Anglesey Offshore Dinghy Race, and my view regarding entry of open canoes, single hull or trimaran, remains the same.

    If a group of canoeists wish to sail in these rough waters, I might be able to help by putting the group in touch with a suitable support boat., although with the cost of fuel these days, and the consumption of large outboards, it is unlikely to be a freebie.
    That's a kind offer, thanks. I doubt I'll be able to take you up on it but others might.

    I have raced my decked sailing canoe (5M rig) at my local club with a 'trial' Portsmouth Number of 1270 (allocated by the Rear Commodore Afloat). My generally mid fleet position, on handicap, is more or less consistent this number, and my racing ability relative to the fleet. 1270 is of course, outside the upper limit of 1200 required for the Anglesey Offshore Dinghy Race. In my experience, light winds favour OCSG type sailing canoes, like mine, racing on handicap.

    It's worth noting that the only way OCSG class rules sailing canoes could gain an accredited Portsmouth Number is by racing with other sailing boats. The RYA strongly encourages the allocation of 'trial numbers' for new or previously unraced classes so as to promote racing and to gather enough race results to be included in their annual calculation of Portsmouth Numbers (based on race results).

    I wish you every success with this year's Anglesey Offshore Dinghy Race.
    Last edited by GavinM; 20th-May-2012 at 07:08 AM.

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