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Thread: just a thought....

  1. #1
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    Default just a thought....

    but. Couldnt a mass trespass like the ramblers did be organised and get the access campaign going? Like i said. Just a thought.......

  2. #2
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    Any get together would be an access awareness gathering. There is no trespassing going on because you can't trespass on a river. That's the main thing landowners and angling associations need to have drilled into them.

  3. #3

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    Reminds me of the protest organised by CRACK (campaign for river access for canoe's and kayak's) on the Seiont years ago.

    http://www.simondawson.com/phseiont.htm
    Last edited by Quarterstaff; 3rd-May-2012 at 03:04 PM. Reason: adding link
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    'If human beings were shown what they're really like, they'd either kill one another as vermin, or hang themselves'.
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  4. #4

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    Did it get press and TV coverage?
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    Did it get press and TV coverage?
    I don't think there was much, possibly a couple of local reporters but don't quote me. I was working as an outdoor instructor living under canvas for 98% of the time so I went for months not watching tv or reading papers, also it was before these times of mass communication!
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    'If human beings were shown what they're really like, they'd either kill one another as vermin, or hang themselves'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quarterstaff View Post
    ......... also it was before these times of mass communication!

    Still....150+ paddlers wasn't bad for the times!!
    Keltoi and associates - The sick and the wrong!

  8. #8
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    Back to the OP - is there a reason why something similar could be done again? Just look at how much attention the Avon paddle generated - and it didn't even happen!
    ​Change is inevitable; progress is optional.

  9. #9

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    Inertia is your biggest problem.

    You wouldn't get enough people off their bums to make a big enough impact.

  10. #10

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    so it all comes down to whether enough people actually want this badly enough or not then. Seems to me....

    1 - if folks don't want access badly enough to make the effort to turn up, then they obviouisly don't want it badly enough to matter that they haven't got it (otherwise they'd do something about it , like turn up) - decision made.

    2 - if however they do want it badly enough that "want" will result in them turning up, getting noticed and getting access on the agenda - decision made.


    I suppose what I'm saying is that the question we need to ask the general canoeing populace is "do we want access or not?". If we want it we need to make the effort to turn up to a mass paddle - lots of them over many months. Conversely, if we DON'T want it badly enough to make the effort to turn up to mass paddles, it's time to stop whinging about lack of access (because folks obviously didn't want it that badly to start with, otherwise they'd have been motivated enough, by a strong enough want, to turn up).

    Let people vote with their reponses to the suggestion, and abide by the decision once and for all, otherwise it's just pointless wasting time on it. It's sad for the minorty of folks who would make the effort, but hey, the minority suffering for the apathy of the majority is just a sad fact of nearly every aspect of life. That's all there is to it. Beating ourselves up about it by repeating the same old grumbles on this forum won't help

    If people will back it, let's give them a chance. If they don't take that chance the decision will have been made, with no one else to blame...move on
    Last edited by springer5; 4th-May-2012 at 03:56 PM.
    and there I was thinking I was clever for learning how to paddle...my dog's been paddling for years, and without a canoe !!

  11. #11

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    In 1932 'several hundred' ramblers performed the Mass Trespass on Kinder scout. At that time the would have been hundreds of thousands of regular walkers/ramblers. I would guess that they really believed things would change. With National Parks there was improvement but it then took 70 years for the C.R.O.W. Act to be enforced.

    I think the comparative percentage in our sport of people committed enough to face a prison sentence would be far less. Most paddlers just want to keep under the radar.

    There have been lots of suggestions of how to educate the public about the restrictive access that landowners etc are trying to enforce. Personally I believe our voice is only a whisper, in this day of the media and it's worship of celebrity I feel a famous and vocal 'champion' is our only hope.

  12. #12
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    I disagree. With the way the media jumps on stories these days the voice that once may have only been a whisper is turned, through exposure, into a loud shout.

    The Avon paddle didn't happen as those planning it acted responsibly. That is not to say that something along the same lines should not be tried again. It generated some media coverage without even happening. What would it have been like if it had gone ahead?

    If a mass paddle were to happen and gained sufficient coverage drawing wider attention to the access campaign, this could possibly get a few more off their bums and so on.
    ​Change is inevitable; progress is optional.

  13. #13

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    People have got/will get the access they deserve. If they want to fight really hard they'll get it. If they can't be bothered they won't, but then they can't have wanted it that badly in the first place, so it won't matter to them.

    If they want it handed to them on a plate is just isn't going to happen. It's a British "condition" that people want the system to improve, but only if someone else is going to do it. Even our earliest folklore is riddled with it (take Robin Hood for example - HE stood up to them for all of us didn't he, while everyone else just sat back and thanked him!).

    The historical evidence so far is that canoeists can't be bothered to fight for access (as Izzetafox has said). That clearly being the case, those few of us who do want it need to accept that we are out numbered by those who don't and call it a day.

    Continually lamenting (on this forum and elsewhere) the absence of something that "the canoeing community" have, by their actions (or rather lack of them) indicated they don't want, is pointless.
    Last edited by springer5; 4th-May-2012 at 09:41 PM.
    and there I was thinking I was clever for learning how to paddle...my dog's been paddling for years, and without a canoe !!

  14. #14
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    I think putting 150+ canoes/kayaks on the river at the same place would be used against us. But maybe three seperate locations with 50 at each, they cant say to much.
    These locations could be
    one south
    one midlands
    one north

    What rivers would be chosen?
    Which are in dispute?

    Hampshire Avon
    ?
    ?
    ?
    ?
    Ratty (Russ)

    I know only that what is moral is you feel good after. What is immoral is what you feel bad after.
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
    I think putting 150+ canoes/kayaks on the river at the same place would be used against us. But maybe three seperate locations with 50 at each, they cant say to much.
    These locations could be
    one south
    one midlands
    one north

    What rivers would be chosen?
    Which are in dispute?

    Hampshire Avon
    ?
    ?
    ?
    ?
    A sound idea Ratty which has also been suggested by others on this thread as well in the past, myself included.

    The frustrating irony is that the canoeing world is full, most weekends, of people launching their canoes and paddling on rivers. And because most rivers are contested a lot of those canoes must inevitably be making unofficial "protest" paddles (for all intents and purposes) each time they go out, in ones twos and threes or whatever.

    So...these people are already out there, they're already paddling where the system says they shouldn't be, and they already take the attitude that "someone" needs to do something about official access, but ask them to come to an organised "protest paddle" (which at the end of the day is exactly the same thing they're already doing, just in larger numbers) and either no one's interested or they'll give you a load of reasons why it's a bad idea.

    They're all mad!! .... but that's what we're up against.
    and there I was thinking I was clever for learning how to paddle...my dog's been paddling for years, and without a canoe !!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by springer5 View Post
    So...these people are already out there, they're already paddling where the system says they shouldn't be,..........
    If only they were using the access map to record the fact that they were paddling and the reactions they received this would itself contribute to an accumulation of valuable information, recording the "de facto" access that occurs in many places without opposition or the harassment that occurs in a relatively small number of places. The Access Map provides the opportunity to record incidents and also the opportunity to simply report the access situation, good, bad or indifferent.
    Keith

  17. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
    I think putting 150+ canoes/kayaks on the river at the same place would be used against us. But maybe three seperate locations with 50 at each, they cant say to much.
    These locations could be
    one south
    one midlands
    one north

    What rivers would be chosen?
    Which are in dispute?

    Hampshire Avon
    Derbyshire Derwent - anywhere but Matlock!
    ?
    ?
    ?

  18. #18
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    The Seiont rally happened after some pretty alarming actions from local anglers; rocks being thrown at canoeists. If that happened now, I can guarantee there would be a substantial reaction.

    Whenever we see interviews with access campaings on the telly, the background is filled with boats buzzing backwards and forwards across the river. This is a complete misrepresentation of your average angler's experience of canoe access. Normally, there will be a couple of groups of half a dozen paddlers who will take about three minutes to quietly pass a swim. My last 'proper' river outings were on the Upper Wye and the Middle Tywi, we saw no anglers on either day. I think the last time I met an angler was the Middle Wye, a couple of fly fishermen. We nodded, passed on the far back and were of no trouble at all. That's how we should exercise our rights to navigate rivers; quietly, politely, insistently.

  19. #19
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    I'd just mention that that there were no fisherman on the Lower Dart last weekend.

    Adrian - I agree with your view on how we should exercise our rights - hence my decision to paddle last weekend on a "closed" river when levels were appropriate. However when there are rivers, perhaps such as the Avon, where the situation is particularly dire, would it not be helpful to highlight the problem?
    ​Change is inevitable; progress is optional.

  20. #20
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    Entirely up to you. I think we should just get on and paddle it when the levels are sensible. I see you describe the Avon as 'dire' but it is worth remembering that this particular river has a statutory right of navigation.

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