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Thread: Sailing Canoe rescues Wayfarer crew

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    Default Sailing Canoe rescues Wayfarer crew

    A video from the 2010 Florida Ultimate challenge showing a sailing canoe (actually a Hobie tri-island SOT -) rescuing the crew of a capsized Wayfarer dinghy



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERCQ_2PSWaE

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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    A video from the 2010 Florida Ultimate challenge showing a sailing canoe (actually a Hobie tri-island SOT -) rescuing the crew of a capsized Wayfarer dinghy
    Looks / sounds like the Wayfarer crew could not get back in their boat without re-capsizing it, or just became exhausted and couldn't climb over the gunwale.

    Last edited by GavinM; 4th-March-2012 at 03:39 PM.

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    The Wayfarer had way too much sail up IMO and a damaged rudder didn't help them!

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    They're bloody death traps those dinjies, one of us should write to the Sun and start a campaign "Ban this killer craze". Stick to sailing a canoe with outriggers, much safer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    They're bloody death traps those dinjies, one of us should write to the Sun and start a campaign "Ban this killer craze". Stick to sailing a canoe with outriggers, much safer!
    Yeah, this one as well.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Yeah, this one as well.
    Haha, nice one Peregrine! I remember those infomercials.

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    This is the 'updated version' !! Joe originally had a Python'esc knotted hanky! Not a 'chav' hat!! I loved the coastguard chappy ..so professional. Also, I wonder how much Apple payed for product placement!!? I'm suprised it aint a bloomin Prius in the background..

    Oh, and I'm toying with sticking a sail on my Ranger now!.. We have a strong fleet of Wayfarers down here!
    Last edited by Teign Beaver; 4th-March-2012 at 06:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teign Beaver View Post
    This is the 'updated version' !! Joe originally had a Python'esc knotted hanky! Not a 'chav' hat!! I loved the coastguard chappy ..so professional. Also, I wonder how much Apple payed for product placement!!? I'm suprised it aint a bloomin Prius in the background..
    Damm! didn't spot it wasn't the original, which is here if anyone's interested ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RAhfVqzVWw . I prefer the knotted hankie.

    Show them Wayfarers what's what.

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    To add .. The latest version to be released soon.. Joe rings the local coastguard..but its been closed down!

    Cheers for the memories Peregrine.
    Last edited by Teign Beaver; 4th-March-2012 at 07:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teign Beaver View Post
    To add .. The latest version to be released soon.. Joe rings the local coastguard..but its been closed down!
    Very topical TB! We're shortly going to lose Clyde Coastguard up here.

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    Hi Jurassic, yes the cut backs have affected us down here ie Brixham CG is going. I wasnt happy like others. But Ive got to thinking as long as the lifeboat crew, cliff rescue etc have the 'local' knowledge (which is more likely the a button pushing phone operative..sorry ) we should be ok?? After all Falmouth Coastguard have coordinated rescues 1000's of miles away! I feel a new thread subject coming on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teign Beaver View Post
    Hi Jurassic, yes the cut backs have affected us down here ie Brixham CG is going. I wasnt happy like others. But Ive got to thinking as long as the lifeboat crew, cliff rescue etc have the 'local' knowledge (which is more likely the a button pushing phone operative..sorry ) we should be ok?? After all Falmouth Coastguard have coordinated rescues 1000's of miles away! I feel a new thread subject coming on!
    Hmm, I suppose the proof will be in the pudding but I was recently on an RYA VHF course and the consensus amongst both students and instructors seemed to be that the changes were cost driven and essentially a bad thing.

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    Well Jurrassic.. despite what I said, I dont want to be the one to test it out!

    One thing, all credit to the Coastwatch people. I dont know if you have them? They are mostly retired LOCAL seafarers, they look out from a tower (like the old days) where I kayak fish sometimes ..Gives me a nice feeling.

    CHECK THIS OUT! http://www.nci.org.uk/

    All ok down my way but people up north..try not to have a marine incident!
    Last edited by Teign Beaver; 4th-March-2012 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teign Beaver View Post
    Well Jurrassic.. despite what I said, I dont want to be the one to test it out!
    No I'm definitely with you on that one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    ..... Stick to sailing a canoe with outriggers, much safer .....
    Seriously ..... as my experience of coastal sailing in a sailing canoe has gradually developed I've unexpectedly become convinced this is correct. In general, I'd now far rather capsize 'in anger' in a well-found sailing canoe with 'Solway Dory type' mini outriggers floats than in a sailing dinghy (particularly a heavy cruising dinghy). The size of the Solway Dory type outrigger floats is crucial - large enough to prevent the vast majority of capsizes, small enough to permit easy righting of an inverted boat yet large enough to provide crucial extra stability when climbing back aboard.

    Having 'participated' in a fair number of accidental and deliberate dinghy capsizes over the years I'm very conscious of the potential for a combination of wind, waves, hypothermia, panic and exhaustion quickly making it impossible to self recover. Luckily, this has never happened to me and taken overall, with the right precautions, sailing is a safe sport. However, referring back to the first video above, it appears to me likely that some combination of the rough windy conditions, cold, fear and exhaustion did make self recovery unachievable.
    Last edited by GavinM; 7th-March-2012 at 07:08 AM.

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    Wayfarers are great fun to sail and easy to right after a capsize, deliberate or not!

    Just comes down to who's at the helm.

    I got up to RYA Level 5 in a Wayfarer.... This includes, rudderless sailing and sailing backwards. They do all those things with ease!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    it appears to me likely that some combination of the rough windy conditions, cold, fear and exhaustion did make self recovery unachievable.
    My understanding was that the rudder broke, so even if they got back in, it would have been challenging in those winds! They could use the jib to take them down wind I guess.

    A two man crew in a normal sailing dinghy should be able to right the boat fairly easily, even in waves and wind, as one person gets scooped in as the other person pulls it over. I have done this many, many times and for a well trained crew, it is fairly easy. Just the direction of the wind and waves to think about in adverse conditions.

    A major advantage with a dinghy is that they are designed to recover from a capsize, often with internal buoyancy evenly distributed, a transom that allows the water to escape, self bailers etc.

    Any water that is still left inside your canoe once it is recovered needs to be manually removed and this takes time and effort, whereas in a dinghy, you can forget about it.

    Outriggers on canoes give the canoe much more stability where stability in the lateral direction is limited, but even with outriggers, a sailing canoe is hybrid, not designed for purpose. Put it another way, why don't you see dinghies with outriggers if outriggers are the answer?

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    Just watched the vid - the folks in the Wayfarer were clueless in my opinion!

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    "My understanding was that the rudder broke, so even if they got back in, there was little they could do in those winds but use the jib to take them down wind."

    That shouldn't have been a problem.. A good dingy sailer can sail just as well without a rudder, especially if he has a crew member with him.

    A Wayfarer will usually have to be bailed out manually.

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    I had already changed my post a second after I posted it, remembering my RYA training that you can sail without a rudder, though it is far from easy and dam right difficult in strong winds!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    I had already changed my post a second after I posted it, remembering my RYA training that you can sail without a rudder, though it is far from easy and dam right difficult in strong winds!
    Isn't it funny - I find it harder in light winds... A bit like surfing tiny waves is harder than surfing big ones because you just don't have so much power to play with.

    I think they were a bit out of their depth in those seas...

    I reckon the bloke in the canoe wouldn't have stood a chance if he had some sort of problem.... His gear would get distributed all over the ocean....

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    Quote Originally Posted by wavecloud View Post
    I think they were a bit out of their depth in those seas...
    I agree. It is important to know your limits and it looked like they didn't know theirs!!

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    Did they ditch the boat as well?

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    What do you reckon the wind strength was? Bout a 6? Right enough way too much sail. They should have had a couple of reefs in the main and furling jib or storm jib or no jib at all though that does limit your options if the rudder goes. Without the jib to balance the main and take the bow away from the wind it's harder to sheet in the main sufficiently to get much drive. With the rudder gone and the luff of the main out of the mast slot there was not much to be done other than drop the main and run or deploy something as a sea anchor to keep the bows into the wind while they sorted the sails out.
    Wayfarers are great sea boats in the right hands but if they do a total inversion they are pigs to get back up. The Wayfarer World and the New Mk 5 have drain flaps or tubes and empty quickly once you get them sailing again.
    Regards,
    Stravaiger.
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    "Waste of time reasoning with the morally demented"

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    Quote Originally Posted by wavecloud View Post
    Wayfarers are great fun to sail and easy to right after a capsize, deliberate or not!

    Just comes down to who's at the helm.

    I got up to RYA Level 5 in a Wayfarer.... This includes, rudderless sailing and sailing backwards. They do all those things with ease!
    I can't agree that Wayfarers are "easy" to right after a capsize. There are several different internal configurations (as the post above mentions) that affect how quick they are to turn turtle, but they all do to a greater or lesser extent. And older designs come up with an awful lot of water in tehm (so I disagree with "you can forget about it" above) Using masthead buoyancy will reduce or stop this turtling (depending on how much is used) but even from on its side a Wayfarer is a big beast for less experienced,especially slightly built, dinghy sailors - when I was instructing RYA courses (I'm an SI) many people would struggle to right them unless using all the tricks that I was there to coach them in.
    Last edited by windorpaddle; 7th-March-2012 at 11:28 AM.

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    Just for clarification... this is Peregrine's old set-up... and his normal sailing territory:



    That's one of the most seaworthy craft I've ever seen. It's a somewhat wet boat in those conditions (through spray) but it's fitted with a self-bailer that appears to work very nicely. In the event of a capsize and recovery, the mini-outriggers and side tanks mean it comes up pretty much dry.

    The worst case scenario is perhaps a swamped footwell: a few inches of water in a confined space, trapped side tanks and by bulkheads to the front and rear. Fortunately, the sail area is more than enough to allow the sailing when swamped. In the event of rudder failure (or even a de-masting) it could be paddled: single blade or long double blade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    I can't agree that Wayfarers are "easy" to right after a capsize. There are several different internal configurations (as the post above mentions) that affect how quick they are to turn turtle, but they all do to a greater or lesser extent. And older designs come up with an awful lot of water in tehm (so I disagree with "you can forget about it" above) Using masthead buoyancy will reduce or stop this turtling (depending on how much is used) but even from on its side a Wayfarer is a big beast for less experienced,especially slightly built, dinghy sailors - when I was instructing RYA courses (I'm an SI) many people would struggle to right them unless using all the tricks that I was there to coach them in.
    It was the old ones that I learnt in. You hit it on the head with 'for less experienced, especially slightly built' I probably find it easy because i'm 6'3" and was over 16 stone!

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    Did the rudder break? All that was said was that it came out of the water? Perhaps due to a lot of leenage in a strong gust? And yes, it definitely looked like they had too much sail up for the conditions.

    However, how relevant is the reason for the capsize? We must all assume we'll capsize occasionally, even if experienced. See below for an excellent write up concerning 3 experienced dinghy sailors who quickly got into major difficulty due to a combination of factors leading up to and following an initially non threatening capsize. It concerns another Wayfarer - not that I think this is particularly significant as I believe them to be generally very seaworthy boats.

    The lesson I take from the account below is how it's often a combination of several things all going wrong in quick succession , together with challenging conditions which can catch us out.

    http://www.bluedome.co.uk/beginners/capsize.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    Just for clarification... this is Peregrine's old set-up... and his normal sailing territory
    Thinking about it, that might be a photo he took... though I got the territory right!

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    Superb pic and great boat, whoever is at the helm!!

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    How to recover from a capsize and not even get wet.


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    Just to provide some background for the Wayfarer incident. Apparently, I was about 30 minutes behind them, when they went over. The conditions seemed to be perfect. As I remember, winds were about 8-12 mph, seas mildly choppy. I was actually sleeping on one of the trampolines (double outrigger canoe) when my son woke me up and said that I should take over the helm. The wind had come up in a matter of minutes. No thunderstorm, no nothing, all of a sudden the wind speed went from 8-12 to 25- 30. I have no direct knowledge, but I would guess that the Wayfarer turned upwind to reef, lost its rudder, apparently couldn't get its sail down (video looked like it could have been ripped, or hung up on a spreader) and eventually went over. I think two other boats went over that day, one of which was a Sea Pearl 21, skippered by a very experienced sailor.

    The guy doing the rescue was participating in a 1200 mile around Florida Challenge, was extremely experienced, and had sailed thousands of miles in the AI. I think he actually invented the Mirage Drive.

    While we didn't turn turtle, we had quite an exiting time. We came about to reef the mainsail (no jib), but the force of the wind bent the mast to such a degree that the masthead fitting (home built, unfortunately by me) gave way, and we lost our rig. After recovering the rig, we used our paddles to get ashore, repaired the rig, as best we could, and headed out again that night. A storm came up, but that is a story for another time.

    My conclusion is that stuff can happen in an instant, be prepared. Good preparation always involves practice, practice, and more practice.

    I should add, I really enjoy this site and am considering moving from a 24' double outrigger, to a 15' open canoe rigged for sailing. I am trying to learn as much as I can from you folks. As I see it, this may be a site for the Canadian open canoe, but you invented, or at least developed canoe sailing.

    Voice from across the pond.

    Bob

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    Hi Bob, great to hear from you and to have a very useful first hand account of the day from a participant in the Florida Challenge. It makes it seem much more tangible somehow. You may have seen these canoe sailing websites but maybe they would be useful to others - http://www.ocsg.org.uk/ , http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/ and 'Open Canoe Sailing Group' on Facebook.

    I look in on 'Skinny Hull' but can you recommend any other North American canoe sailing websites?

    Would be great to see the odd update or picture of your open sailing canoe. Maybe one day we'll manage a transatlantic canoe sailing event.
    Last edited by GavinM; 8th-March-2012 at 06:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Maybe one day we'll manage a transatlantic canoe sailing event.
    Err..... You might be on your own with that one then!!

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    Maybe one day we'll manage a transatlantic canoe sailing event.
    The OCSG have already taken part in two "transatlantic" events ie where canoe sailors visited the other country's "nationals" meet to race, socialise and forge international connections. Five of us visited the ACA meet at Moose Pond, Maine in 1995 and then about five Americans came to Windermere in September 1996 for an international meet. Each time the host nation provided sailing canoes for the visitors to use - here's some pictures:

    Busy race start


    Close racing


    Hectic change over during team relay race


    Dave Stubbs, International Series winner - in the first sailing canoe he built - it's still in good order and being sailed regularly by its present owner.

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    Fantastic insight Bob, thanks for posting that. It's strange watching the video to see the beautiful azure water in such a threatening state.

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