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Thread: Capsize Recovery Device

  1. #1
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    Default Capsize Recovery Device

    Just had a great idea. Gonna make a Capsize Sock!

    A long sausage shaped nylon tube like a wind sock with a 12” diameter opening and closed off at the other end so it will hold water. It would need to be about 3-foot long and on the opening side, will need 2 or 3-straps.

    I will need to come up with a quick release way of attaching a paddle across the centre yoke and then suspend the water filled sock to the end of the paddle.

    This idea will allow the weight to increase the higher the sock is lifted out of the water, unlike a bucket which will weigh no more once it is lifted clear of the water!

    It can’t fail and it will be small enough and light enough to take with you.

    We have plenty of the waterproof nylon sheet left, so I’ll get my wife to make one before the Rutland Water meet.

    Just the paddle connection to think about now. See image below for what I'm thinking about.


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    Alternatively... eat fewer pies and (unless you've some medical reason not to, such as a bad back) just practise the comparatively straightforward matter of getting back into your boat

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    Sort of like an inverse paddle float.. Linky with this you can hold onto the paddle and thwart at the same time, kick your leg over the paddle, another over the gunwhale and shoogle in. Normally I have so much baggage tied in, I just clamber over that
    Cheers,

    Alan


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    ...
    Last edited by lubaloo; 2nd-March-2012 at 02:19 PM. Reason: a bit flippant

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    Hmm... Maybe it would be easier to make a couple and just hang them from the gunwales, less to go wrong!

    The idea stems from Daves bucket on a string idea, but Dave was saying that the bucket had a tendancy to float and when I tried it last, much of the water tipped out of the bucket as it came out of the water!!!

    The paddle float looks okay. I have seen it before, but feel that I would still sink it! Too many pies!!
    I had wondered if the paddle float might work together with the sock or a variation of it to help get back in.

    Alternatively... eat fewer pies
    But I like my pies.
    As we get older, we also become less athletic Greg. Your time will come, just you wait!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    Alternatively... eat fewer pies and (unless you've some medical reason not to, such as a bad back) just practise the comparatively straightforward matter of getting back into your boat
    Ive got a medical reason.

    Im too fat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Idea View Post
    Ive got a medical reason
    ...but you have outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    As we get older, we also become less athletic Greg. Your time will come, just you wait!
    Don't suppose there's much between us in age, and I'm way, WAY slower and less agile then I was. Trying to keep up with my daughter has flagged up that I'm well past the "time to start Pilates" stage...

    This idea looks worth a shot, as does the paddle float idea.

    Your idea might appeal more if the same bag could be used as a drogue: waterproof zip in the bottom?

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    The key to the bucket on a string is getting the string the right length so that the bucket stays in the water long enough but not too long. I can't see why the sock idea wouldn't work but why bother using the paddle, why not just leash it directly to a thwart? Paddle floats work well but I've stopped carrying mine most of the time as I can get back in without it. Practice is the key as Greg says.

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    Just a thought why not try one of those collapsible garden refuse buckets? They're deeper than a conventional bucket so would give you more chance of retaining water and they fold flat when not in use.
    http://www.toolspot.co.uk/product/collapsible-leaf-bin

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    The bucket full of water hanging off the gunwale is enough to let me get back in. Don't need any more weight or lever arm. The problem with the paddle idea is the difficulty of assembling it whilst in the water, and the stability of it all. The bucket is tied on inside the canoe and in a capsize deploys itself. You adjust the lanyard holding it into the canoe before you set off on the water, and in a capsize it will be already set and should work without having to fasten ,or adjust anything.

    By all means try and better the bucket idea and refine it, but don't try and come up with anything too complicated that may be difficult to deploy. Your life may depend on it!! KISS.

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    The bucket is also really useful for emptying the water out of the canoe after the capsize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    The bucket full of water hanging off the gunwale is enough to let me get back in. Don't need any more weight or lever arm. The problem with the paddle idea is the difficulty of assembling it whilst in the water, and the stability of it all. The bucket is tied on inside the canoe and in a capsize deploys itself. You adjust the lanyard holding it into the canoe before you set off on the water, and in a capsize it will be already set and should work without having to fasten ,or adjust anything.

    By all means try and better the bucket idea and refine it, but don't try and come up with anything too complicated that may be difficult to deploy. Your life may depend on it!! KISS.
    Exactly, when Gailainne and I were messing about last spring (when the water was still very cold) we came to the conclusion that by the time I faffed about rigging up my paddle float (ie putting the float on the paddle then lashing the the paddle shaft to a thwart) we were getting too cold too quickly. Better to get out the water as quickly as possible by using a simple system like the bucket or no system at all if you can get back in unaided. The problem with using the paddle as an outrigger is that it tends to swivel round out of position under the gunwale rendering the system useless. The only way round this is to lash it more securely which wastes more valuable time. Even with a drysuit on you're only as good as the insulation you're wearing underneath so unless you wear lots of bulky insulating layers (which make you overheat in normal use and further reduce agility) you'll get cold very quickly. Best to keep it simple and get back in the canoe fast, bailing the water out will warm you up again.

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    I've rigged up a loop of cord around my seat with a short length coming off that with a carabiner on it ,in event of capsize I can clip my bucket handle quickly onto the carabiner. I have yet to test this out and the cord is shock cord.
    I've got a suspicion this might not work with stretchy rope somehow...

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    I think the capsize sock leashed directly to the side of the canoe would work. The advantage of the bucket is that it serves two purposes (as a counterbalance and then as the most effective method of bailing out your canoe quickly once you're back in).
    Unk, I think you might be be better off using conventional cord instead of shock cord for this particular application.

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    Dry bags !!!! Ready made capsize socks.

    Two longish dry bags rolled up and ready to deploy on one side.

    Right the canoe, pull them down into the water, fill them up, tighten the strap holding them against the side of the canoe at the right length, swim round the other side of the canoe and get in, dump the water from the dry bags and sail off.

    I have had no luck with the bucket method. Last Autumn a few of us met up on Ferry Meadows and another chap tried the bucket method and coudn't get it to work either. He then tried the length of line attached to the opposite gunwale and couldn't get that to work either.

    It's not just me that has had difficulties with the bucket method, so I guess more practice is required.

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    I like the idea of a water sock to counter balance an outboard motor though! I'm going to try that in the next few weeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Dry bags !!!! Ready made capsize socks.

    Two longish dry bags rolled up and ready to deploy on one side.
    Yep, I reckon that'd work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Just a thought why not try one of those collapsible garden refuse buckets? They're deeper than a conventional bucket so would give you more chance of retaining water and they fold flat when not in use.
    http://www.toolspot.co.uk/product/collapsible-leaf-bin
    I reckon that kind of bucket would be too flimsy - and too big.

    I've got one like this and it worked well on the one occasion I tried it. I didn't fancy having such a big solid bucket in the boat all the time.


    Not very dear either! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-Outdo...item3371a8b182

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    Do you mean like this




    I posted this a while ago

    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...-rescue-system

    scotty7367
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    Deleted original post, rash comment.
    Last edited by mikgee; 2nd-March-2012 at 08:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    I reckon that kind of bucket would be too flimsy - and too big.
    I imagine those refuse bucket things would leak Keith but it wouldn't need to retain water for long. I was also thinking that the extra depth would mean that the column of water would have more margin for the canoe leaning as you climbed aboard. I'm not sure if they'd be strong enough (although I suspect they would as long as you didn't attempt to lift the whole thing out of the water while it was full). I do like the collapsible bucket you show though and as you say it's great value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty7367 View Post
    Do you mean like this




    I posted this a while ago

    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...-rescue-system

    scotty7367
    That is the slowest, least practical canoe rescue system I've ever seen. Why didn't he just climb back in and bail it with a bucket? Madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    I was also thinking that the extra depth would mean that the column of water would have more margin for the canoe leaning as you climbed aboard.
    That was my eureka moment earlier today. A column of water that doesn't lift out of the water completely and the more pressure you apply on one side of the canoe to get in, the force (Weight of water) increases on the otherside counteracting it and keeping the canoe fairly level.

    It's just applying that principle in some way that is lightweight, cheap, easy and reliable.

    As my kids would say "Being an old codger" I would like to be able to pull one side of the canoe down to just above waterline and climb back in, without the gunwale dipping under the waterline and start filling the canoe again! Equally I don't want to have to climb over the gunwale which is 3-feet up in the air. Using a column of water means that I can calculate the water levels while practicing and then should it happen by accident in the middle of Loch Ness, it should be a piece of cake.

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    Alternatively... pull the canoe upright... sort out the rudder and sails... and get on a beam reach, close hauled (whilst still in the water): in any decent breeze, you'll be able to put your entire weight on the upwind gunwale without it dipping significantly.

    Worked nicely for me 3 times in succession in force 5-6 (maybe 7) winds and monster swells on the day of the round-the-island race

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    Im using an alternative "reversed" option here.... Takes a bit to inflate (the helium tank is a bit heavy to manipulate fast), but works fine!

    Tony BR
    www.companhiadecanoagem.com.br
    www.canoacanadense.com.br/english.htm
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    I don't think it'd ever really be a piece of cake Chris, it's bloody hard work hauling yourself into the canoe even when it's stabilised by something but as long as you know you can do it that's the main thing. If the canoe's capsized it'll have lots of water in and be sitting low in the water anyway (irrespective of having side and end buoyancy). Getting back in is similar to trying to pull yourself out of a swimming pool while out of your depth, it's bound to involve a bit of an effort. In my experience the gunwale is almost certain to dip back under the water as you climb aboard allowing more water back into the boat but in some ways having that happen makes re-entry a little easier. I know we keep saying it but practice really is the key (no excuses now you have a drysuit ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    Worked nicely for me 3 times in succession in force 5-6 (maybe 7) winds and monster swells on the day of the round-the-island race
    Dam, that's a lot of capsizes Greg. Did you spend much time sailing then? Lol

    That's how my kid brother gets back onto his wind surf board, using the sail. He's only 10-stone though and built like a racing snake unlike Mr Pie eater here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Dam, that's a lot of capsizes Greg. Did you spend much time sailing then?
    That was the finest bit of canoe sailing I've ever done... and possibly the finest I'll ever do. Going into and across the wind was fantastic. We were both carrying a LOT of sail... and it was VERY wet sailing: Gavin's self bailer was working overtime, and I was having to deal with several inches of water sloshing about at all times - but we were flying.

    Sadly, my tacking was slow with so much water aboard... and I was caught between just sailing swamped (OK in straight lines) or bailing as I sailed (not easy given that I needed to be hiked out so far that I couldn't reach the gunwale). Experimenting slowed me down, and as Gavin couldn't see why I'd lagged behind, he wanted to head to shore for a conflab. At this point I discovered that sailing (and surfing) directly downwind with 4" water in the boat was a LOT more challenging than going upwind.

    My first two dunkings were each recovered inside 15 seconds (from over to back up and sailing again). Despite sailing only a few yards away, Gavin didn't even notice those! The third was a slower recovery as I had to get to the other side of the canoe: maybe 45 seconds. After that, opted for a broad reach rather than running directly downwind... which solved the problem: no more dunkings.

    To me, canoeing's a watersport, and doesn't get any better than what we got up to that afternoon... but the key thing was capsizing being NO BIG DEAL. Ideally, a capsize in a canoe should be little bigger deal than coming off a windsurf, or rolling a sea kayak (something I'd happily do even in big surf) - but must admit, I wasn't faffing around with buckets, socks, stirrups or paddle floats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    That was the finest bit of canoe sailing I've ever done... and possibly the finest I'll ever do. Going into and across the wind was fantastic. We were both carrying a LOT of sail... and it was VERY wet sailing: Gavin's self bailer was working overtime, and I was having to deal with several inches of water sloshing about at all times - but we were flying.

    Sadly, my tacking was slow with so much water aboard... and I was caught between just sailing swamped (OK in straight lines) or bailing as I sailed (not easy given that I needed to be hiked out so far that I couldn't reach the gunwale). Experimenting slowed me down, and as Gavin couldn't see why I'd lagged behind, he wanted to head to shore for a conflab. At this point I discovered that sailing (and surfing) directly downwind with 4" water in the boat was a LOT more challenging than going upwind.

    My first two dunkings were each recovered inside 15 seconds (from over to back up and sailing again). Despite sailing only a few yards away, Gavin didn't even notice those! The third was a slower recovery as I had to get to the other side of the canoe: maybe 45 seconds. After that, opted for a broad reach rather than running directly downwind... which solved the problem: no more dunkings.

    To me, canoeing's a watersport, and doesn't get any better than what we got up to that afternoon... but the key thing was capsizing being NO BIG DEAL. Ideally, a capsize in a canoe should be little bigger deal than coming off a windsurf, or rolling a sea kayak (something I'd happily do even in big surf) - but must admit, I wasn't faffing around with buckets, socks, stirrups or paddle floats.
    Greg, I remember that great day's sailing well. Your third capsize recovery, which I did witness, was extremely impressive and when it comes to athletic canoe sailing you are in a complete class of your own. Having sailed your canoe later in the day in more subdued conditions after we set off from Netley SC I have to say there is no way I'd have been able to readily recover from a capsize in your canoe in the sea state rough, F5, gusting 6 conditions of earlier in the day, without outriggers/ amas - so capsizing for me, in your boat, would have been an issue. The point here is that what works for a skilled, athletic and slim canoe sailor like you, may well not work for an overweight, late 50s canoe sailor like me. I completely agree with earlier posts about the importance of keeping things simple and the importance of practice, practice, practice when it comes to capsize recovery.

    However, discussion about untested, or relatively unproven, or ingenious contraptions for capsize recovery does worry me a tad. Not that I'm against debating possible innovation in this area (debate is healthy and can stimulate genuinely new and useful ideas), but my concern is that someone might just depend on an idea which works in theory, or in calm conditions but not when needed for real.

    Solutions for capsize recovery will vary but having tried a variety of methods I rely principally on two;
    1. Outriggers / amas - I have little sympathy for the idea that sailing canoes with outriggers / amas represent loss of canoe sailing purity and see them as a great innovation which functions extremely well as part of an integrated and seaworthy 'semi trimaran' design. I know I'm very unlikely to capsize with amas but even more importantly, I know that with amas I can rely on being able to get back into the boat without difficulty after a capsize.
    2. I do however, for reasons of convenience, sometimes sail without amas in sheltered waters and if so often take a bucket on a string ready rigged so as to fall out, in the event of a capsize - with the lanyard of the right length so that the bucket rim is just above the water when the canoe is upright and level (ready to counterbalance me as I climb back aboard). I first tried this technique 3 years ago and have practised since - so know it works. I use a heavy rubber bucket of the type sold by yacht chandlers and also take it on extended sailing trips. It sinks well and is also useful for bailing and additionally as; a receptacle for small items when sailing, a seat when camping ashore, a washing up bowl and as a small sea anchor.

    I have tried using the force of the wind on the sail as a counterbalance when getting back in. It is a very useful technique and one I need to practice more.
    Last edited by GavinM; 3rd-March-2012 at 08:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Solutions for capsize recovery will vary but having tried a variety of methods I rely principally on two;
    1. Outriggers / amas - I have little sympathy for the idea that sailing canoes with outriggers / amas represent loss of canoe sailing purity and see them as a great innovation which functions extremely well as part of an integrated and seaworthy 'semi trimaran' design. I know I'm very unlikely to capsize with amas but even more importantly, I know that with amas I can rely on being able to get back into the boat without difficulty after a capsize.
    Without the athletic abilty of Greg and without the outriggers, 14-stone oldies like myself need a reliable method of getting back in, otherwise we represent a risk to ourselves and other sailors with us.

    Outriggers would be a real pain on my forthcoming Caledonian Canal sailing trip given the amout of portaging required so in that instance I would have to disagree with you that they would represent a loss of canoe sailing purity. It wouldn't disable it completely, but canoe sailing with outriggers is moving towards dinghy sailing in my opinion and you are getting very close to needing a slipway or gentle slope (Beach or otherwise) in which to access the water. Dropping the canoe over the side of jetty or canal edge is far from ideal, as is getting in and out of the canoe when moored alongside one!

    I don't dispute that outriggers are great once actually sailing, but they change the dynamics of canoe sailing, they are added weight and added cost.

    I feel that the bucket method of climbing back inside a canoe without outriggers needs to be practiced or developed in some way for those of us that don't have/ want outriggers and hopefully whatever method is reached, it will be reliable in rough conditions, lightweight, simple, low tech & cheap.

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    Greg and I discussed his re-entry technique and a potential evolution of that to something similar to a windsurfing waterstart at some length last year. It's something I aim to experiment with a little more once I'm fit enough and the water's warmed up a bit. There are some significant differences between a windsurfing rig and a canoe rig though (principally the windsurfer's universal joint at the mastfoot and the fact that a windsurfer rig isn't a soft sail like a canoe sail and will hold an aerofoil section irrespective of the effects of gravity or wind/air pressure). Whether it would be possible to use the rig to aid re-entry of (and even possibly re-righting) the canoe I'm not sure. What I will say though is that although the windsurfing waterstart looks very dynamic it relies mostly on technique and not strength and is physically a lot easier than might be expected. If something similar were possible with a sailing canoe (and Greg's testimony suggests it is) it might be possible to develop it into a physically less demanding option than the conventional struggle to re-enter the canoe. An intriguing prospect and one I intend to explore using my windsurfing experience.
    PS I should add that I'm neither particularly young (48), particularly light (200lbs/14st/90kg) nor particularly fit.
    Last edited by Jurassic; 3rd-March-2012 at 10:00 AM.

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    Met up with the wifes boyfriend.

    He was joining thehalves of his canoe together, but didnt have any duct tape to waterproof the join.

    He decided to come out regardless.



    Er....

    It leaked.

    The kids make balancing a flooded canoe on lumpy water look easy.

    He decided they were lying when he fell in.

    He discovered he couldnt get the canoe to stay still so he could get back in.

    I got him to shove it under my outriggers arms and then climb up between the boats.

    By sitting on my outrigger arm, he could stop his boat trying to turn over - despite all the water.



    He got cold. Luckily, he had a wet suit on and we wernt that far from the shore and the car.



    I dropped him off on the beach so he could move to get some warmth going, and I paddled both the boats back.



    Paddling it with the two ended paddle wasnt possible as it was too wide. I ended up using a sort of C shaped J stroke, which worked.

    Luckily, the wind and tide were with me, so it didnt take long.



    He has now decided he wants an outrigger too.

    Considering the problems he had, I think that could be his best option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    ....Outriggers would be a real pain on my forthcoming Caledonian Canal sailing trip given the amout of portaging required so in that instance I would have to disagree with you that they would represent a loss of canoe sailing purity. It wouldn't disable it completely, but canoe sailing with outriggers is moving towards dinghy sailing in my opinion....
    Outriggers didn't stop a number of portaging, sorry trundling , on portable trolleys over 2 miles across Mull or along a rough track a mile across Jura. This highlights the difference between a sailing canoe with outriggers and a sailing dinghy. I don't deny outriggers will be a bit of an embuggerance on a great Great Glen / Caledonian Canal trip which I'm hoping to do later in the summer and I can certainly see the case for not taking them along the Caledonian Canal. However, don't forget Loch Ness is long enough to have a water horizon and waves can reach several feet high in a good blow.
    Last edited by GavinM; 3rd-March-2012 at 10:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Greg and I discussed his re-entry technique and a potential evolution of that to something similar to a windsurfing waterstart at some length last year.
    As noted in previous discussions... what I did was NOT a windsurfer's wet-start... but something altogether more straightforward: simply using pressure on the sail to counterbalance the self-rescuer's weight as he/she climbs back into the canoe.

    If your canoe is floating across the wind (with the sail on the lee/downwind side).... and you pull the hull upright with the sail cleated off (or holding the mainsheet)... you'll find the pressure on the sail is trying to force the canoe back down: the canoe really needs you hiked out on the windward side... so you can push down with all your weight without the rail dipping.

    Of course... all other things being equal, weather helm then intervenes: the canoe turns head to wind - which might be a good thing if you're lying in the bottom and want to sort yourself out. My preference, however, is to clamp the tiller to the gunwale (under my hand) before climbing aboard. This could be used to ensure longer to climb aboard.

    Note: the discussion Chris and I had was about a wet-start with the sail and operator on the windward side of the canoe - and whilst I'm looking to hearing Chris' feedback, I'm not sure about this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Outriggers didn't stop a number of portaging, sorry trundling , on portable trolleys over 2 miles across Mull or along a rough track a mile across Jura. This highlights the difference between a sailing canoe with outriggers and a sailing dinghy. I don't deny outriggers will be a bit of an embuggerance on a great Great Glen / Caledonian Canal trip which I'm hoping to do later in the summer and I can certainly see the case for not taking them along the Caledonian Canal. However, don't forget Loch Ness is long enough to have a water horizon and waves can reach several feet high in a good blow.
    It's just a lot more weight to drag around. You may want to take the outriggers off if your dragging the canoe through trees and they make lowering the canoe into the water much harder. A Topper or a Laser One can be dragged around by one person in the same way as a canoe with outriggers. It's not impossible but hard work.

    I accept that Loch Ness can get tricky, which is why I need to have a plan should I capsize, though I would be using my storm sail in rough conditions to minimise the chance of capsizing and if the waves were really high, we would either wait it out or lash the canoes together, somthing that would also be difficult if outriggers were fitted.

    I feel that we are drifting back to another thread I once started, "Side Buoyancy or Outriggers" which was about deciding the options, preventing the capsize from happening or sorting it out later if it happens. Now I have decided that (For now) outriggers are not for me, how to deal with sorting it out when it happens.

    You may also have to make some choices about what to do with your outriggers if you make the same trip later in the year, but because you also have a tall Bermunan rig, may choose to pay the 150 and use the locks, which will take longer to make the trip, but it will be less stressful in terms of physical effort.

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    Greg, if you use the sail to keep the gunwale up while you climb in on the windward side, does the canoe try to sail off with you hanging onto the side of the canoe?

    My original plan from discussions with Dave S was to pull the rig out, get back in and then rig it up again, but this option sounds interesting.
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 3rd-March-2012 at 10:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Without the athletic abilty of Greg and without the outriggers, 14-stone oldies like myself need a reliable method of getting back in, otherwise we represent a risk to ourselves and other sailors with us.

    Outriggers would be a real pain on my forthcoming Caledonian Canal sailing trip given the amout of portaging required so in that instance I would have to disagree with you that they would represent a loss of canoe sailing purity. It wouldn't disable it completely, but canoe sailing with outriggers is moving towards dinghy sailing in my opinion and you are getting very close to needing a slipway or gentle slope (Beach or otherwise) in which to access the water. Dropping the canoe over the side of jetty or canal edge is far from ideal, as is getting in and out of the canoe when moored alongside one!

    I don't dispute that outriggers are great once actually sailing, but they change the dynamics of canoe sailing, they are added weight and added cost.

    I feel that the bucket method of climbing back inside a canoe without outriggers needs to be practiced or developed in some way for those of us that don't have/ want outriggers and hopefully whatever method is reached, it will be reliable in rough conditions, lightweight, simple, low tech & cheap.
    I think some people would argue that the purity of the canoe is compromised by adding a rig, a rudder and a leeboard. Outriggers are just another step on this evolutionary ladder and I feel that to argue against their use based on aesthetics or cost is missing the point.
    This all ties in with Dave P's article in this months Gossip on seaworthiness and I think doing the maths based on Dave's algorithm and honestly assessing your own set up based on that when risk assessing potential trips is only sensible. I don't think that arguments on appearance have any place in a discussion about safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    Note: the discussion Chris and I had was about a wet-start with the sail and operator on the windward side of the canoe - and whilst I'm looking to hearing Chris' feedback, I'm not sure about this one.
    I'm not sure about it either Greg but I think it's worth experimenting a little. I suspect that the limit will be the re-entry that you've already mastered and I hope to at least achieve some level of proficiency with that technique. I also suspect that anything more dynamic than the technique you've already perfected would only be possible in a decked boat with the mast secured in place as it would rely on leaning the canoe to windward to the extent that the gunwale would be submerged. This would probably lead to a huge ingress of water into an open boat and create more problems than it solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    It's just a lot more weight to drag around. You may want to take the outriggers off if your dragging the canoe through trees and they make lowering the canoe into the water much harder. A Topper or a Laser One can be dragged around by one person in the same way as a canoe with outriggers. It's not impossible but hard work.

    I accept that Loch Ness can get tricky, which is why I need to have a plan should I capsize, though I would be using my storm sail in rough conditions to minimise the chance of capsizing and if the waves were really high, we would either wait it out or lash the canoes together, somthing that would also be difficult if outriggers were fitted.

    I feel that we are drifting back to another thread I once started, "Side Buoyancy or Outriggers" which was about deciding the options, preventing the capsize from happening or sorting it out later if it happens ...
    Two amas and an outrigger beam add just over 12kg. Although significant, I have not found this amount of extra weight a serious impediment to portaging. However, I take the point about the possible need to demount the beam for manhandling the canoe, should this be necessary. And, sure a Laser or Topper can be moved around as easily as a sailing canoe with or without outriggers - but Lasers and Toppers not cruising boats and not suited to expeditions.

    Solway Dory type outriggers certainly do help prevent capsizes but IMO as important, if not more, is their ability to assure easy and fast recovery after a capsize. So I do feel they are relevant to discussions about recovery as well prevention.

    I'm looking forward to meeting up at Rutland and hearing more about your trip.
    Last edited by GavinM; 3rd-March-2012 at 11:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    I don't think that arguments on appearance have any place in a discussion about safety.
    Hi Chris, I don't think I have mentioned appearance in this thread, though cost should be a factor. Many people might choose not to buy outriggers at 300+ and learn how to recover from a capsize if one happens instead.

    Lets face it, the chances of capsizing is not that high once you know how to sail well. I wouldn't want any canoeists thinking about taking up canoe sailing thinking that then need to buy all this gear, which could total an extra grand, when an expedition rig and a leeboard is all they really need.

    Outriggers have their place of course they do, but they are not an essential part of canoe sailing. Like everything, there will be strengths and weaknesses.
    Personally, I fall between the basic paddle sailing setup and the full Bermudan rig setup with outriggers. Anyone without outriggers will need to develop a method of self recovery just incase they do capsize and that is want I am trying to identify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint;387036........
    Lets face it, the chances of capsizing is not that high once you know how to sail well. I wouldn't want any canoeists thinking about taking up canoe sailing thinking that then need to buy all this gear, which could total an extra grand, when an expedition rig and a leeboard is all they really need.........
    Agree absolutely, outriggers are not essential for canoe sailing and there is a huge amount of canoe sailing on rivers, lakes, sheltered estuarys and so on that can be enjoyed safely without them. I'd never want to portray outriggers as an essential and I often sail without. However, there is no way I'd sail offshore, or in rough conditions in the Solent, or for several days in the Hebrides, or sail significant distances on my own without outriggers.

    And Chris, I have to say - you are great at getting stimulating debates going!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    As noted in previous discussions... what I did was NOT a windsurfer's wet-start... but something altogether more straightforward: simply using pressure on the sail to counterbalance the self-rescuer's weight as he/she climbs back into the canoe.

    If your canoe is floating across the wind (with the sail on the lee/downwind side).... and you pull the hull upright with the sail cleated off (or holding the mainsheet)... you'll find the pressure on the sail is trying to force the canoe back down: the canoe really needs you hiked out on the windward side... so you can push down with all your weight without the rail dipping.

    Of course... all other things being equal, weather helm then intervenes: the canoe turns head to wind - which might be a good thing if you're lying in the bottom and want to sort yourself out. My preference, however, is to clamp the tiller to the gunwale (under my hand) before climbing aboard. This could be used to ensure longer to climb aboard.

    Note: the discussion Chris and I had was about a wet-start with the sail and operator on the windward side of the canoe - and whilst I'm looking to hearing Chris' feedback, I'm not sure about this one.
    I've used this technique with very good results in the past. It was something that just seemed so obvious to me and I had used it with single handed dinghies such as Lasers, Toppers and Minisails. It avoids the hassle of removing the rig and then having to put it back once upright, in the very tricky conditions that have caused you to tip in the first place.

    I'm with Gavin on the outrigger issues. And in some conditions I would be rather nervous of sailing Loch Ness without them - or it could be a long wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Hi Chris, I don't think I have mentioned appearance in this thread, though cost should be a factor. Many people might choose not to buy outriggers at 300+ and learn how to recover from a capsize if one happens instead.

    Lets face it, the chances of capsizing is not that high once you know how to sail well. I wouldn't want any canoeists thinking about taking up canoe sailing thinking that then need to buy all this gear, which could total an extra grand, when an expedition rig and a leeboard is all they really need.

    Outriggers have their place of course they do, but they are not an essential part of canoe sailing. Like everything, there will be strengths and weaknesses.
    Personally, I fall between the basic paddle sailing setup and the full Bermudan rig setup with outriggers. Anyone without outriggers will need to develop a method of self recovery just incase they do capsize and that is want I am trying to identify.
    That's all true however going back to Dave P's seaworthiness article, I think that if you sail without outriggers you reduce the seaworthiness of your canoe and must lower your expectations accordingly. Don't be under the illusion that a canoe without outriggers can safely perform in the same conditions as a similar boat with outriggers can as it's simply not true. Sailing without outriggers means adjusting aspirations downwards (unless you have Greg's agility and prowess).

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    Anyway back on topic, are you still going to make a capsize sock?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post

    As we get older, we also become less athletic Greg. Your time will come, just you wait!
    errrr....I agree that inevitably, we do become 'less athletic' as we age. But, not to the point where we become somehow incapacitated, I think.

    I am definitely 'older' - not even middle-aged anymore (unless you know any 130-year-old women ?? ...... ) - and although I am clearly 'less athletic' than I was 40 years ago, I haven't gone completely to ruin, I am definitely not overweight, and I still don't have any trouble hoicking myself back into my boat, even in deep water...just a good strong scissor leg-kick, reach for the far gunnel, and in you go....not graceful...but not difficult either... Maybe a bit more practice?

    Not slaggin' anybody. I just don't think you need all the mechanical bits-and-pieces, just to get back in your boat. Just my 2 cents.

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    I think you should stiffen the top edge of the sock with wire or plastic so it stays open to fill with water and sew a small weight into the closed end so it drops straight down, rather than floating uselessly on the surface.
    Last edited by pieface; 3rd-March-2012 at 01:33 PM. Reason: spelling
    Cheers, Pieface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    errrr....I agree that inevitably, we do become 'less athletic' as we age..... and although I am clearly 'less athletic' than I was 40 years ago, I haven't gone completely to ruin, I am definitely not overweight, and I still don't have any trouble hoicking myself back into my boat, even in deep water...just a good strong scissor leg-kick, reach for the far gunnel, and in you go....not graceful...but not difficult either... Maybe a bit more practice?

    Not slaggin' anybody. I just don't think you need all the mechanical bits-and-pieces, just to get back in your boat. Just my 2 cents.
    A bit more practice climbing back in without outriggers or other mechanical assistance and losing a bit of weight could do me a lot of good but ..... when I'm at sea, swimming and there's a rig swinging about above me in the breeze, four foot waves and no prospect of getting ashore without getting back in the boat (or alternatively being rescued) then I'm always going to want a bit more than agility to depend on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    That's all true however going back to Dave P's seaworthiness article, I think that if you sail without outriggers you reduce the seaworthiness of your canoe and must lower your expectations accordingly. Don't be under the illusion that a canoe without outriggers can safely perform in the same conditions as a similar boat with outriggers can as it's simply not true. Sailing without outriggers means adjusting aspirations downwards (unless you have Greg's agility and prowess).
    Mines more seaworthy than yours, nah ne nah ne nah na!



    Or should I say:



    Seriously though, you hit the nail on the head Chris, to a certain extent skill can extend the limitations of the equipment!

    Once I get the hang of sailing my outriggerless canoe, I'll happily sail it alongside anyone with outriggers and demonstrate what is possible.
    My biggest headache will be keeping the water out or having something to get rid of it when it comes in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Anyway back on topic, are you still going to make a capsize sock?
    Yep and/ or find some drybags that will do the job.

    Decided to give the paddle arm a miss on the basis of technical difficulty and keeping it simple, but two socks hanging from the gunwale each side of my leeboard will be tested at Rutland Water I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    And Chris, I have to say - you are great at getting stimulating debates going!
    I know mate, it was getting a bit quiet around here over the last few days wasn't it.
    The sailing season is coming, the sailing season is coming, horah, horah. So much to look forward to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    errrr....I agree that inevitably, we do become 'less athletic' as we age. But, not to the point where we become somehow incapacitated, I think.

    I am definitely 'older' - not even middle-aged anymore (unless you know any 130-year-old women ?? ...... ) - and although I am clearly 'less athletic' than I was 40 years ago, I haven't gone completely to ruin, I am definitely not overweight, and I still don't have any trouble hoicking myself back into my boat, even in deep water...just a good strong scissor leg-kick, reach for the far gunnel, and in you go....not graceful...but not difficult either... Maybe a bit more practice?

    Not slaggin' anybody. I just don't think you need all the mechanical bits-and-pieces, just to get back in your boat. Just my 2 cents.
    Okay, lets do a body swap then. I can't even walk at the moment after damaging me knee last week, let alone pull myself into an open canoe with two frozen shoulders and a rebuilt hip. Not going to give up trying though.

    Oh, I'm also an insulin dependant diabetic with partial sight in one eye!! Come on, I'll swap ye, I'll swap ye!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pieface View Post
    I think you should stiffen the top edge of the sock with wire or plastic so it stays open to fill with water and sew a small weight into the closed end so it drops straight down, rather than floating uselessly on the surface.
    Hey Pieface, great idea about the weight, but not sure what to think about trying to keep the top open. I was thinking about swimming round, manually filling the bags/ socks and possibly even closing them off to stop water pouring out later. Remember that as I push down on the other side of the canoe to get in and the opposite side with the socks lift, they will also be squashed by their own weight against the side of the hull, which may try to push some of the water out. Filling them up, rolling the top over a few times to keep the water inside and then attaching them to the gunwale may be the answer, or not??

    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 3rd-March-2012 at 07:23 PM.

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    Pieface's observation that your sock may need some wire loop, weight or other structure to hold it open and allow it to fill is spot on. My bucket does this but even then it isnt foolproof. It can swing to one side and only half fill. For it to be really useful it needs to fill itself and remain stable when it lifts out as it is on the other side of the canoe and out of reach. Swimming back and forth around the canoe is a waste of time and energy, and when the water is cold this could become a killer.
    sk8r is right that some people can just climb back into an open canoe without any gadgets to help them but then there are lots of people who cannot. Weight tends to be the issue and at 14stones i know that i cannot get back into my canoe without putting under the near gunwale, and if too much water gets in stability becomes an issue. This is particularly relevant in strong winds and waves with a sailing rig up.
    My biggest headache will be keeping the water out or having something to get rid of it when it comes in.
    This is why i favour decked sailing canoes.

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    I think that when it is cold, swimming around to the other side, finding,and filling bags, closing them , fastening them on the gunwales, swimming back to the other side will take too long. Something that will self deploy will be well worth the effort of setting it up BEFORE you capsize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    I think that when it is cold, swimming around to the other side, finding,and filling bags, closing them , fastening them on the gunwales, swimming back to the other side will take too long. Something that will self deploy will be well worth the effort of setting it up BEFORE you capsize.
    Okay, mark 1 will have a weight on the bottom and a plastic ring in the top to keep the mouth open.

    It might also be better to be thinner as it goes down, a bit like a wizards hat. We want it to be taught as we lift it. Too much slack in the material and the water level will drop as it lifts and fills out at the same time.

    Ideas on the diameter of the sock anyone?
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 3rd-March-2012 at 07:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Okay, lets do a body swap then. I can't even walk at the moment after damaging me knee last week, let alone pull myself into an open canoe with two frozen shoulders and a rebuilt hip. Not going to give up trying though.

    Oh, I'm also an insulin dependant diabetic with partial sight in one eye!! Come on, I'll swap ye, I'll swap ye!!
    Wouldn't mind a "swap" , ....except for that one bit.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    Wouldn't mind a "swap" , ....except for that one bit.......
    LOL

    Been thinking about the wizard's hat shape and feel that it is not ideal. The best thing about a tube shape is that the weight of water increases at a steady rate as it lifts out of the water, whereas a wizard hat shape sock will slow down it's weight increase as it lifts clear of the waterline.
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 3rd-March-2012 at 09:38 PM.

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    In theory, the difference between theory and practice is small. In practice, the difference between theory and practice is large.

    Get out and get wet Chris ... and leave that drawing board alone for a while.
    Last edited by GavinM; 4th-March-2012 at 07:26 AM.

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    Okay been playing around with this idea still and the problem with hanging a few drybags/socks from the gunwale is the size they need to be to hold enough water and allow a bloke of 90kgs to get in on the other side. Two 10 litre drybags will only support 20kgs of my weight and while this will help, it's not enough.

    So I come back to some sort of arm that will increase the apparent weight in the form of a lever. An arm 900mm long holding 1kgs (Or a litre of water) I think I'm right in thinking will support my 90kgs of weight holding onto the side or it should if the width of the fulcrum (Pivoting point) was next to my hands as I climb in, except the whole canoe becomes the fulcrum. The principle is sound though, I need a lever or an arm.

    As discussed these can be clumsy to erect when the waves are big and the winds are strong. Well earlier this evening I have been messing about in the garage and I have come up with a system that is so simple, so easy to deploy fast and when it is not in use, I won't even know it is there! I think this is the way I am going to go with it.

    I found one of these in the garage:



    It's a tree pruner for those that don't recognise it. The handle is a discrete grey colour. It is light aluminium, yet capable taking some load and best of all, it is telescopic with the twist, extend and turn to lock system. Basically it can be extended in a second and locked out in the extended position in 2-seconds.

    Now by attaching it along the edge of the leeboard thwart so that it is out of the way and doesn't protrude in the stowed position, I shouldn't know it is there while sailing normally, but when I need it, twist, extend it and twist again to lock it off in the out position. Then quickly open & fill a drybag and hang it on the end and I am ready to climb in on the opposite side of the canoe.

    Here's how the idea would look setup on my canoe:


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    I like the idea of an easier way to board a canoe. If you change the sock for a float and put a stirrup tied to the float support you will have a ladder to get aboard. The float only needs to support part of your weight as the fulcrum will be closer to the floating canoe. If the support were to pivot on the edge of the gunwale the far end would wedge under the opposite gunwale the float in the water would be very easy to deploy. The web stirrup would self deploy. You may want the stirrup to sink to make it easy to get your foot in. This would be easier with a drawing.
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