Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: Outrigger Help

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Braintree, Essex
    Posts
    1,744

    Default Outrigger Help

    Need a little help with my outriggers.

    They are nearing completion and I'm a little stuck.

    It's time to think about attaching to the boat, and I suddenly realised I have no idea how far out the outriggers should be

    I've got a Bermudan 44 sq ft sail and the out riggers are 6ft long, 1 ft tall and 1 ft wide.

    Hope someone knows the answer


    Joe
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Helensburgh, Scotland.
    Posts
    1,740

    Default

    I think the Solway Dory ones are mounted on an eight foot beam Joe. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to go and measure mine at the moment but I'm sure someone will confirm whether I'm correct. Graham (OCSG member but not on here) has his mounted on two alu box section beams that can be adjusted for angle allowing the canoe to heel more or less. Gailainne off here has SD amas mounted on alu tubes recycled from old windsurfing booms, he can adjust the length of the beams. I'm sure you know that the SD beam is steamed into a gullwing shape so that the amas are carried clear of the water most of the time.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Braintree, Essex
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    Thanks for the help

    I'm going to cheat I'm affraid. Steaming wood to get the bend seems like hard work, so I'm going to use tube or box section. Makes it easier to adjust when I get the bends wrong
    Last edited by joe.ford; 8th-January-2012 at 04:48 PM. Reason: really bad speling toay
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Helensburgh, Scotland.
    Posts
    1,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    Thanks of the help

    I'm going to cheat I'm affraid. Steaming wood to get the bend seems like hard work, so I'm going to use tube or box section. Makes it easier to adjust when I get the bends wrong
    Yeah if I were trying to make my own I'd probably use two separate beams to get the bend instead of trying to steam one, it'd be easier if not quite so elegant. Your floats are a lot bigger than the SD ones so you may have to beef up the beam accordingly (or use front and rear beams a la SteveC/Greenbean). Graham's floats are also bigger than the SD ones (but smaller than yours) and he manages with a single support. I'm guessing that your problem might be the amount of twisting force a 6ft long outrigger could generate and whether a single support would be able to withstand that? Maybe two lighter spars would be the way to go rather than one monster spar?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Braintree, Essex
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    I'm using 2 beams to aid recovery if I fall out. So I can get between the beams and use them to hall myself back in
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    grange over sands, cumbria
    Posts
    931

    Default

    Our outriggers are 4ft long, 6inches wide and 10inches deep. They have a buoyancy of around 40lbs. The beam is about 4 1/2inch wide by 7/8inch thick, and 8ft long made from Ash.
    With a 6ft outrigger i think you will need 2 beams. They should be strong enough to take a force at least the same as the buoyancy of your outrigger. I would guess a buoyancy of around 90lbs. I wouldnt make your beams too long or you will not be able to right your canoe if you do manage to capsize it. You cannot push down hard enough to sink the outrigger if it goes too deep as you right it, because as you push down you end up floating in the water. But you may be OK because a 90lb outrigger will be very hard to sail under. Just be aware that if you use your outriggers to support you in stronger and stronger winds, eventually you may still capsize, and then what?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Braintree, Essex
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    you may still capsize, and then what?
    Remove 1 of the outriggers, put the canoe the right way up again and reattach the out rigger

    Is 8 ft the distance from one outrigger to the other?

    I was thinking of having the outriggers about 3 ft away from the canoe

    Joe
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Helensburgh, Scotland.
    Posts
    1,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    Is 8 ft the distance from one outrigger to the other?
    Joe
    Yes that's the length of the beam (which stretches from the outside of one float to the outside of the other).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    grange over sands, cumbria
    Posts
    931

    Default

    This may work if you have a slick way of attaching the outriggers to the beams, but it may not be easy to do in the conditions that first caused the capsize. I would imagine this to be a force 6 with 3ft high waves. How are you planning on attaching the beams to the canoe? If this was straps onto a couple of thwarts, you may be able to put some slack in the straps, push the outrigger beam assembly towards the canoe, right the canoe over the near outrigger, re- enter and put the outriggers back out again. Never tried this but it may work.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    grange over sands, cumbria
    Posts
    931

    Default

    Righting the canoe over a 90lb outrigger willempty most of the water out so it should come up nearly dry.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Deepest darkest Wales
    Posts
    3,945

    Default

    Beach cat sailors have a slightly different set of approaches to the problem of outriggers too buoyant to be fully sunk...

    This one shows the use of a "Water Bag"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbE6p8KdtE0

    Other videos show different approaches - but ALL seem keen on a buoyant mast to prevent the complete inversion.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    461

    Default

    If you've got a hollow mast you could try filling it with poly beads, I have done this, not sure if it would prevent the canoe from turtling though, the idea was to just insure the mast floats to make recovering it easier to the canoe when the mast is removed from the thwart and foot (but still attached via the sheet to the bridle) during a capsize.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Poole Dorset UK
    Posts
    2,282

    Default

    I decided I would not try to bend my outrigger spars until I knew exactly where I needed the outrigger to sit.

    I simply tied 2 8 ft lengths of 3 x 2" onto it and laid it across the boat and tied it on.

    Doing this meant that I could chock the spars until I had them at exactly the right height. I could then measure them and bend them as needed.

    As it happened, by lucky accident, it rides at the height I wanted.

    I found some luggage straps to fix the spart to the boat instead of the ropes as they were faster.

    The spars fit in a socket on the outrigger and are held in with a push fit dowel.

    My spars are about 6 ft apart, and this is the absolute minimum I would have as I just scrape them with the paddle when Im in a hurry. A single would stop me paddling with a double ended paddle.

    The rear one is only just out of the way when I use a paddle to steer on that side - again by chance.

    With 8 ft of spar, the outrigger is nearly as difficult to lift out of the water as it is to force it under.

    As a result, I only need one outrigger.

    This has proved to be very useful as I can come alongside jetties, banks and other boats.

    I would suggest you try setting your boat up on the ground and working out where you need it all to go.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    As a result, I only need one outrigger.
    Many sailors use their outriggers when sailing hard in strong winds. I.e. They allow the canoe to heel over onto the leeward side so that the leeward outrigger is pressed down hard into the water. If you choose to use only one outrigger then you would only have this option on one tack and not the other. Just a thought.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Poole Dorset UK
    Posts
    2,282

    Default

    I thought that too.

    However, in practice, its the same on both tacks.

    I think its as hard to lift it out of the water as to push it under.

    That said, you probably get double the righting movement with two as one is resisting being pushed under and one is resisting being lifted all the time.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Peterborough, England
    Posts
    1,393

    Default

    You could be right, but my thoughts turn to riding a motorcycle with sidecar. The tend to turn well when turning away from the sidecar side so that the weaight is transfered to the sidecar wheel, though a nightmare on the oposite turn unless there is a passenger in the seat to keep the sidecar wheel on the road!

    How about developing a double outrigger setup that allows the outriggers to be pushed closer to the hull or right up to it.

    Edit: Idea. Perhaps some square section aluminium poles with smaller square poles that slide along inside these. Then with some pip pins you can adjust the length and slide the outrigers right in, right out and anywhere in between.
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 9th-January-2012 at 09:35 AM. Reason: Idea

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Braintree, Essex
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    You could be right, but my thoughts turn to riding a motorcycle with sidecar. The tend to turn well when turning away from the sidecar side so that the weaight is transfered to the sidecar wheel, though a nightmare on the oposite turn unless there is a passenger in the seat to keep the sidecar wheel on the road!
    Not quite true

    Left turns (UK spec) sidecar lifts, and have a little fun but controlable. Right turns Back wheel lifts and you go over the front without any control, And get the bike + sidecar on top of you

    I think it's more of a confidence thing, you think you can push harder as you are leaning on something Any way that's what I'm hoping for with the outriggers
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Poole Dorset UK
    Posts
    2,282

    Default

    My origional design was for 3 part arms that worked a bit like draw hinges.

    I cut the centre of my outrigger in an arc to go under the side and out of the way of my paddle and fully intended to make it retractable.

    However, when I tested with a couple of lengths of wood, I realised I didnt want to retract it and I needed it out a fair way to give me enough space to paddle without hitting it.

    Ive just measured it...

    My arms reach 1" past the canoe, which is 24" wide where they fit. The outrigger bracket is 4.5 inches wide and there is about one more inch for the dowel on the far side...Allowing for the curve of the plan of the outrigger making it 6 inches wide in the middle and the canoes 32"...

    The outrigger and canoe use 35.25 inches of my 8 ft spars.

    The gap between my canoe and my outrigger is 5ft.

    When reaching out and pulling to turn my canoe from a standstill, I use most of that.

    Hmmm....

    Motorbike and side car...

    Can you imagine trying to get a motorbike around a corner with really strong cycle trainer wheels on it that dont reach out past the engine sides?

    Take that as a canoe with no outrigger.

    Take the amount of force you can apply before a normal sidecar comes off the ground as having one outrigger.

    Turning away from the side car doesnt really apply as you cant sink the side car into the road.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Deepest darkest Wales
    Posts
    3,945

    Default

    With a single outrigger - if the Specific gravity of the ama (outrigger) is 0.5 - then it offers exactly the same amount of stability in both modes - i.e. same force to lift it as to sink it.

    This explains why the solid timber log outrigger was used so extensively in the pacific - and why it is still found on Wharram's Melanesia - and in some of Gary Dierking's designs.

    The quick-n-dirty modern approach adds a few water filled 3 litre lemonade bottles to the hollow ama.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Poole Dorset UK
    Posts
    2,282

    Default

    lol my first go was with a 2 ft plastic fender.



    I used the two pieces of timber without cutting them as I didnt want to waste wood. I was struggling a bit though as I was hitting the front spar with the paddle.

    It worked quite well, although it did slew the canoe each time the spars went into the water. The rest of the time it tracked surprisingly straight.

    This expeiment is what convinced me to go build a more permanent one.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Ok here goes - This might help

    I use big (ish) outriggers, they are the Ranger floats from the Selway Fisher plans. I don't know the exact volume of each float but I can say this -

    I am 11 stone and if I stand on an outrigger float it just about submerges. Dave S, you'll probably know straight away the volume just from that info!

    They are attached to my canoe with two Ash beams and are space about 3 metres apart. Just far enough out to enable paddling when required.

    They offer a very substantial benefit to sailing in either strong winds (force 4 upwards) and in choppy conditions and big waves. They are overkill when it comes to flat water sailing on lakes in gentle conditions.

    I have never come close to a capsize with outriggers fitted (they are that good!), but, I have deliberately capsized several times by standing on an outrigger and hanging onto the mast util it went right over. Recover was very easy (much easier that removing the mast when sailing without outriggers) by looping a rope around one outrigger and pulling back on it when standing on the other. It's safer to stand on the leeboard side so that there's no risk of being brained by it as the boat comes back over. The boat comes back upright leaving me neatly placed between the outrigger, the canoe and both the beams. Re-entry is child's play.

    Steve

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Deepest darkest Wales
    Posts
    3,945

    Default

    Is that recovery from a complete inversion or from a "Mast Horizontal" knockdown position?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DougR View Post
    Is that recovery from a complete inversion or from a "Mast Horizontal" knockdown position?

    I have never come close to a capsize with outriggers fitted (they are that good!), but, I have deliberately capsized several times by standing on an outrigger and hanging onto the mast util it went right over. Recover was very easy (much easier that removing the mast when sailing without outriggers) by looping a rope around one outrigger and pulling back on it when standing on the other. It's safer to stand on the leeboard side so that there's no risk of being brained by it as the boat comes back over. The boat comes back upright leaving me neatly placed between the outrigger, the canoe and both the beams. Re-entry is child's play.

    Yes it was completely inverted

    Steve

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Deepest darkest Wales
    Posts
    3,945

    Default

    Ta.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    grange over sands, cumbria
    Posts
    931

    Default

    11 stone is 154 lbs. Water weighs 63lbs /cu ft so 154 lbs is 2.44 cu ft.
    It is interesting that you can stand on an outrigger that can support your weight and pull the weight of the boat and other outrigger out of the water and re-right your canoe. I didnt think that would be possible.
    I do believe you though and i am glad that you have practiced this and proved me wrong. We have to right our Osprey outrigger canoe by pulling it end over end, sinking the stern first which doesnt have any buoyancy.
    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/articles...ecovery-tests/
    The Osprey has outrigger 12ft long with a buoyancy of around 250lb each.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Hi Dave

    My outrigger just submerges to about level with the surface when I stand on it. If I step on it briefly as I climb out to get onto a pontoon say, I can usually do it with only wet toes. So only just supporting me.

    I think the reason why it's so easy to turn my canoe back upright is that as the outrigger I stand on starts to sink to the water line and I lean backwards on the rope attached to the far side outrigger, I'm pulling the weight of the canoe over the now sinking outrigger which is progressively adding it to own my weight. In other words the further it tips up the more my weight and the canoe's weight become combined. Once this happens the sinking outrigger goes down fast and over it all goes.

    I'm really hoping to come to an OCSG meet before long so I'm happy to demonstrate if you like.

    Steve

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    grange over sands, cumbria
    Posts
    931

    Default

    Looking forward to eventually meeting you Steve, and seeing your capsize recovery in action.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •