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Thread: Kite?

  1. #1

    Default Kite?

    Hi

    Has anyone tried using a Power Kite as a means of propulsion with a canoe? The reason I ask is because my self build is taking a bit longer than I expected so I won’t have time to install a sailing rig this year. Planning a trip on the lochs before summer though it might be worth a try?


  2. #2

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    I've tried it once in a surf kayak with 10' flexifoil with no real success, but I reckon a modern inflatable leading edge traction kite that's not too big could be really good in an open canoe!

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    Friends tried this.



    The paddler is Peter Stokx of Canad.be and he's teamed up with a top level kite specialist... but they are experimenting with a land kite that's light and compact when not in use as the kite-surfing sort are apparently far too cumbersome for "expedition" use.

    The whole topic has been talked about at OCSG meets... but Jurassic is our resident expert: kite surfing background...

    Ps. See also here.
    Last edited by GregandGinaS; 6th-January-2012 at 08:46 PM.

  4. #4

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    It's just the problem of sinking kite and lines in the event of a crash.!

    Surely there must be a lightweight inflatable kite?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by wavecloud View Post
    It's just the problem of sinking kite and lines in the event of a crash.!

    Surely there must be a lightweight inflatable kite?
    That was my fear, I have body dragged myself in water with a land Kite before but never let it crash. I think if it total submerged it would be goodbye kite. Maybe a couple of blow up arm bands attached just below or above the foil could prevent this?

  6. #6

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    Providing it doesn’t crash looks do able, when I have finished my build hopefully next month I will give it a go and let you know how I get on.

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    There ain't hardly nuthin' new under the sun.....

    http://www.nhuttonboatbuilders.co.uk/jacobs_ladder.html

    N.B. as the lines are brought to deck level there is very little heeling moment - the potential for VERY high speeds is considerable.
    Ditto new failure modes...



    The kitesurfing folks have brought waterstarting an inflatable kite to quite a fine art.

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    I played with one in a double sea kayak about 25 years ago - deploying a simple small power kite from the bow seat, so at least my paddling partner (not Ann!) could brace/paddle and steer with the rudder. I once took it on a trip that headed out thro the Corryvreckan - it was sort of stuffed under the decklines but getting partly washed away at times. I vividly recall my mate asking me firmly to "get that bl**dy thing packed up and start paddling!" We were paddling out thro pretty big swells at the time with the front half of the boat being lifted clear of the water as it rose to the waves... There were some pics and account of the trip in Canoeist magazine at the time.

    The big issue with kites is being able to relaunch the thing if it dunks so the more recent inflatable versions must be the way to go. Quite a spendy plaything tho...

  9. #9
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    It goes without saying if you power the kite up in the wrong area (ie off the beam of a canoe without outriggers) you'd be swimming in a flash. As Greg says water launchable kites with inflatable elements tend to be bulky. My smallest is 8m and that packs down to about the size of a 60-80litre rucksack, you also need to carry a high volume pump to inflate the bladders. Peter Lynn make Kites that are supposed to be water launchable but don't need inflating (they rely on air pressure created while flying to inflate the kite), they also incorporate an auto-zenith feature (if you let go of the bar they just park themselves at 12o'clock overhead and fly there themselves). This makes them relatively easy to fly and a bit safer but sustained immersion would mean they'd deflate and turn into wet laundry with strings attached. Flexifoil used to make inflatable two line trainer kitesurf kites (can't remember the name) in quite small sizes but I'm not sure if they still do. The other problem with most entry level traction kites is that they don't have any depower ability to handle varying wind conditions (my 5m power kite is far less forgiving than my 8m kitesurfing kite). That fact could make them a bit of a handful or even dangerous in gusty conditions.
    I reckon a reasonably experienced kite pilot could keep a (land) power kite flying okay as long as the wind was steady but you'd need someone else along to steer the canoe (you need both hands free to fly the kite). I also can't see how you could launch a land kite while you were already afloat (you'd have to launch it on land before getting in the canoe) which would severely restrict it's usefulness imho. Another disadvantage of a power kite that I've just thought of is the complex bridle that is necessary to hold the kite in shape, inflatable kites have a simpler bridle (or no bridle depending on type) as the inflated bladder gives the kite it's shape.
    Greg and I talked about having a try at doing some kite sailing but I think it'd just be for fun not as a serious expedition technique. I'll be interested to hear how you get on if you try it Junk yard dog. Here's some inspiration for you in the meantime.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzN8ziJZqQE
    Last edited by Jurassic; 6th-January-2012 at 11:03 PM. Reason: double emoticon, doh!

  10. #10

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    Just remembered an oil tanker used twenty foot Flexifoils to reduce fule costs when motoring downwind!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Here's some inspiration for you in the meantime.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzN8ziJZqQE
    COOOOOL

    Can they make any progress into wind? Also, do the handlebars that control the kite, also act as the tiller to control the direction of the cat or is that what the second person is for?

    Edit: Just watched the video again and have seen the second person holding the tiller!
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 7th-January-2012 at 04:15 PM.

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    My other hobby is kite buggying and I have a good range of fixed bridle kites that pull like you wouldn't believe.

    I think launching and landing the kites from a canoe would be nigh on impossible unless you used lei (kitesurfing) kites and even then I'm not sure you could land and pack the kite whilst on the water all that well. Kitesurfers are taught to do a deep-water pack but as I undestand it this is meant as a last resort emergency measure.

    Kites don't behave all that well in gusty winds either... You'd want nice clean onshore winds or you might find yourself being hoiked out of the canoe periodically. I'm a big bloke and it happens to me from time to time... Wouldn't want to experience it in a canoe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luffy m View Post
    My other hobby is kite buggying and I have a good range of fixed bridle kites that pull like you wouldn't believe.

    I think launching and landing the kites from a canoe would be nigh on impossible unless you used lei (kitesurfing) kites and even then I'm not sure you could land and pack the kite whilst on the water all that well. Kitesurfers are taught to do a deep-water pack but as I undestand it this is meant as a last resort emergency measure.

    Kites don't behave all that well in gusty winds either... You'd want nice clean onshore winds or you might find yourself being hoiked out of the canoe periodically. I'm a big bloke and it happens to me from time to time... Wouldn't want to experience it in a canoe.
    My thoughts exactly luffy m. I can pack down my kitesurf kites relatively easily on the water (I've had to do it quite a few times) and I think it'd be fine from a canoe. Launching, relaunching and landing might be tricky but should be possible with a LEI kite.
    I really don't think a lot of people appreciate how powerful kites are though, my smallest is 3m and that's easily capable of lifting me twenty feet in the air when it's powered up (this won't be news to luffy or others who've flown traction kites). I let my sister have a go with it in the field between Coniston Hall campsite and Houlthwaite and she refused to let go of the bar in a gust even though I'd told her to do so (that would have depowered the kite completely). She was dragged on her face about 50metres through all the sheep sh*t before she finally listened. On that occasion it was only her pride that was hurt (and our ribs from laughing) as it was a nice open field but they're potentially very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. I've been hauled a looooong way out the water by my kitesurfing kites (not talking jumping here but in an out of control/crash situation) and when I was learning my instructor reckoned we should only expect to be fully in control of the kite 80% of the time , most of the other 20% is spent being dragged through the water or through the air.
    I'm firmly of the opinion that while it might be a laugh to try a kite in a canoe it really isn't a viable replacement to a sail for tripping (in fact an umbrella would probably be a better idea).

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    I've got another really good vid to post later but I'm busy on Dakar watching just now. Back later.

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    9 meter flexifoil blade 1 yeah !!! Will explain going pub now.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    Friends tried this.



    The paddler is Peter Stokx of Canad.be and he's teamed up with a top level kite specialist... but they are experimenting with a land kite that's light and compact when not in use as the kite-surfing sort are apparently far too cumbersome for "expedition" use.

    The whole topic has been talked about at OCSG meets... but Jurassic is our resident expert: kite surfing background...

    Ps. See also here.
    That looks like a fairly small kite Greg but it's moving the canoes along reasonably well on what looks like a beam reach. I'd like to know if they launched the kite while afloat and if they did, how? I think it's also worth noting that they have two canoes rafted for stability and plenty of hefty blokes and kit as ballast.

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    I just read the thread you linked there as well Greg, lot's of good advice there which pretty much fits with my own thoughts.

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    Hi Junk Yard, being a traction power kiter and buggy pilot of to many years I cant believe I haven't tried canoe kiting yet. I've been 'working' on getting my solo fishing yak adapted for kite power. I need to set up a rudder to steer and keel fins to give it up wind traction ability. I have water and land kites to try. I'm leaning towards the 4 lined, 2 control handle land kites as I use in my buggy, as I have very precise control of the power and position..(I hope ). Starting out with small kites firstly!
    Some of the 'single skin' kites may be worth a look, eg the NASA Wing-> http://pdj.home.xs4all.nl/nasaplan.htm. Simple kites with plenty of sensible grunt. Can be flown on two or four lines. Being single skin they do not fill with debris (sand, fish etc). and of course, water. They pack down small to. Also I think they can be adjusted for different winds?? Not 100% re that.
    As stated above in previous post, in a canoe you'll need a helm to steer the boat and dagger boards for drive up wind. Please let us all know how you get on if you try it.

    Go on give it a go! ....What could possibly go wrong?

    Ian... (always wear a helmet)
    Last edited by Teign Beaver; 8th-January-2012 at 10:48 AM.

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    Let's go guys!

    Or more sanely:

    Last edited by windorpaddle; 8th-January-2012 at 10:47 AM.

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    Are they in control ? Or just mad? ..mad!

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    Nice, relaxed way to take the spouse cruising off through the Hebrides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teign Beaver View Post
    Are they in control ? Or just mad? ..mad!
    Barely... and yes, but gloriously - like most of us!

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    Check this out..I know we are heading off "canoe" kite topic a bit but...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJUH9...eature=related

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    30 knots! That'll do for me!! You don't see it starting or tacking/gybing tho...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junk yard dog View Post
    Hi

    Has anyone tried using a Power Kite as a means of propulsion with a canoe? The reason I ask is because my self build is taking a bit longer than I expected so I won’t have time to install a sailing rig this year. Planning a trip on the lochs before summer though it might be worth a try?

    While these videos show that Kite sailing is possible, dont underestimate the difficulty involved. Controlling the kite is one thing but controlling the canoe is another. Trying it out on a trip will just end in failure as well as being potentially dangerous. If you are going to do this, make sure that you go out in controlled conditions, with back up, and practice, practice, practice. How are you planning on controlling the direction of travel of the canoe.. The video of the stable outrigger canoe with 4 people in didn't look at all under control, with one flying the kite, and another trying to steer. Good luck, and i would love to hear how you get on.

  27. #27
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    Good morning,
    Hear in Australia a small featernaty yousesingal string kites to power up sea kayaks, Iv been on trips with them, thay take a bit to lornch ,thay need constant winds at about 8 to 10 knots min and thay can be hard to get down, the thing thats recomended is to always have a sea ankor with a crab on it , you youse this to dich it and retreav it quick, simpaly clip it on the string and put it in the water and let the water pul it out of the sky . in jeneral a sail is quiker and easier, I can get my kayak sail up and down in seconds, realy grate in shifting winds and big seas , the kite takes a lot of managment .

  28. #28

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    Guys I used to use one of these on my sea kayak.

    http://www.kitesrus.com/Merchant2/me...PSSL/kayakkite

    it worked really well. It is single lin so really easy to get up and once its up you can just forget about it and use your paddle as a tiller.

    I used a luggage start around my body so it was attached to me and not the boat so if I capsized i would not lose the boat. the luggage strap gives a means of quick release should things go sour.

    As these are single skin if they do get wet a quick shake and it will soon fly again.

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    Mmmm... interesting. I used to make kites. That looks like a large version of a single line inflatable sled. Food for thought.
    Fran

    Photobucket stole my sig



  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fran View Post
    Mmmm... interesting. I used to make kites. That looks like a large version of a single line inflatable sled. Food for thought.
    You got it in one. although it is not inflatable. It has two thin spars

  31. #31
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    Some of the sea kayaking fraternaty yoused thme in years gon by, thay atached them to the boat, with a quick releas on them , also you need a sea ancor or droge with a carabener on it , if you need to get it down quick you clip the crab on the string , dump the anchor, the anchor will pull the kite down , and with eny luck it will be at your canoe, you will also need a deck traveler , Id have to find a picture to remember how thay wher riged , if enyone is definatly keen I can find sume more info
    regards Mick M

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    I would think a Flysurfer kite would be Ok. Not sure of the current sizes that they do but they are all foil kites that are water re-launchable. I have a 3.5m Maniac and a 7m one and we have thought about using the little one with the canoe but we haven't tried it yet as we only have a canal close by and it has power lines along it and across it.

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