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Thread: Adding a jib

  1. #1
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    Default Adding a jib

    I see that there are some canoes with jib sails added and I'm wondering if it would be a beneficial addition to my prospector.

    I'm not sure what size jib I might be able to add or how I could do it and still maintain the easy reefing of the Bermudan sail by rotating the mast.

    What about the added strain to the thwart and the mast foot?

    How would this effect the balance of the sail / leeboard?

    Any thoughts or experience?

    Otherwise - I still have my 44 ft rig - could I install the at the stern and have loads of sail area?

    Cheers

    Steve

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    Starting from the end of your post - mizzens can be good and useful but 44 is big! Could you still get at it to reef or furl?

    Jibs are a mixed blessing for the reasons you have already identified, expecially with a roller furling Bermudan. Graham D in the group has managed to sort one out. You will have to email or Facebook him as I don't think he is on here.

    I have used a jib - with a lugsail so the mast did not have to rotate much and I could set it in conjunction with a small mizzen. Or I did play with one on a fixed bermudan but could only rig on the beach - for racing really.

  3. #3
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    A subject I have been much obsessing with this last year!
    I brought a copy of a pico jib for about 35, its just over 1msq I think. It connects to the mast in the "fractional" manner so avoids attaching to the mast on the sleeved down, less stiff upper part. The luff came with a wire forestay, which I kept to try and maintain stiffness although replacing it with a rope one would help packing it away when not in use. The halyard ties off on a cleat on the mast thwart but I'm going to change this to a cleat on the mast itself as Windorpaddle has done on his canoe.
    I have experimented with putting on a easily removable backstay with 3mm dacron rope tensioned on an in line clamcleat on dry land but when I put tension on it it just seemed to bend the upper section of the mast back rather then add anything to the jib luff ( this might alter when under wind load ,on the water I suppose).My mast is the older 1.5 inch version by Solway Dory and I have toyed with the idea of adding a internal 1" sleeve from the mast foot to the upper attachment point of the jib in order to improve stiffness, although this might loft up too much extra weight. All this stiffening, as you know, is to try and get the jib to remain taut heading up to wind.
    Last edited by unk tantor; 3rd-January-2012 at 09:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unk tantor View Post
    A subject I have been much obsessing with this last year!
    I brought a copy of a pico jib for about 35, its just over 1msq I think. It connects to the mast in the "fractional" manner so avoids attaching to the mast on the sleeved down, less stiff upper part. The luff came with a wire forestay, which I kept to try and maintain stiffness although replacing it with a rope one would help packing it away when not in use. The halyard ties off on a cleat on the mast thwart but I'm going to change this to a cleat on the mast itself as Windorpaddle has done on his canoe.
    I have experimented with putting on a easily removable backstay with 3mm dacron rope tensioned on an in line clamcleat on dry land but when I put tension on it it just seemed to bend the upper section of the mast back rather then add anything to the jib luff ( this might alter when under wind load ,on the water I suppose).My mast is the older 1.5 inch version by Solway Dory and I have toyed with the idea of adding a internal 1" sleeve from the mast foot to the upper attachment point of the jib in order to improve stiffness, although this might loft up too much extra weight. All this stiffening, as you know, is to try and get the jib to remain taut heading up to wind.
    I used a backstay (3mm kevlar) with the rig that I could only set up on the beach - to keep the jib luff taut as mentioned.
    When I used a jib with the shorter lug sail mast I even rigged the main halyard as a backstay when I wasn't using the mainsail. A jib and a mizzen is a good combination for blowy conditions, like many Drascombes use.

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    If you fitted an "anchor loop" (for want of a better name) to the rear of the canoe (as many folk use at the front to allow easy retrieval of an anchor over the side of the canoe) could you not then use that to haul a backstay out to the rear of the canoe? In conjunction with an extra long backstay this would allow you to rig the backstay whilst on the water and mean you could still let it go if you needed to reef. Just a thought, I'm sure one of the long standing OCSG members must have thought of this before (you seem to have already thought of/tried every other "new" idea I come up with ). Right I'm off back to virtual spectate on the Dakar Rally again now, see you in two weeks!

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    My thinking was that the backstay would be rigged up on the beach but could be easily let go to enable reefing and/or mast recover in event of a blow up or capsize. The backstay would fly loose but could be brought down the mast and stored in a similar way to the halyard. A bit messy and time consuming if you need to reef in a hurry but then I only sail, so far, on relatively confined estuary waters, on extended open crossings this might be less then ideal.

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    Would it not be the case that you would rig it with the jib in light winds where the extra sail area would be useful/ required and not on other occasions when the wind is strong enough that reefing might become neccessary? If you are suddenly caught out and need to reef, as others have said, some kind of system that allows to to drop the jib/ forestay & backstay in a hurry, allowing you to reef the main would be a good idea. Nothing worse than having too much sail up when out on the water and not being able to take down/ reduce the sails. I guess that's where a sharp knife comes in handy.

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    Is a backstay and forestay tension necessary? Una rigs tend to go well upwind but can be a bit more sluggish of the wind. Contemporary thinking seems to be that any slot effect is of little or no value i.e. it's about the sail area not the number of sails per se. My plan, almost completed, is to add an offwind foresail, a bit like a very flat cut small asymetric spinnaker. Significant forestay tension will, I hope, not be necessary.

    My thinking is for my sailing canoe;
    • Close hauled, a foresail would only add something to my 5 sq m (54 sq ft) main for a narrow wind range, say f2 to 3 at best. Less wind and I may paddle sail, more and I will have plenty of power and I'll be hiked out most of the time. The other issue would be that a foresail would probably mean too much lee helm when sailing close halued, unless it were small, which would cut down the off wind value.
    • I hope for wind angles between 80 and 160 degrees my foresail will add something (it is about 2 sq m).
    • Downwind, I don't expect my foresail to add much - apparent wind less than real wind and every increase in speed dimishing the apparent wind, so beyond a certain sail size I will run into rapidly dimishing returns for any further addition of sail area.
    • This all might change if an objective is racing where every small increase in speed can make the differnence between winning and losing. But then any racing may only be with other sailing canoes where the addition of more sail area may not be allowed and if against dinghies on handicap, then more sail area should mean a corresponding change in handicap (Portsmouth Number).
    However, I know others appear to have had some success with jibs on sailing canoes and of course, much of the above is conjecture until I actually try it out. Maybe this weekend if the weather serves?
    The other simple approach is just to make the mainsail bigger, which might be a better alternative to a adding a foresail with all the potential complexities. I have sailed a lot with a 5.5 sq m (taller) mainsail in the company of other sailing canoes with 5 sq m mainsails and there is a small but noticeable advantage. But I tend erode much of that by being overweight and carrying too much stuff.
    IMO a jib (as opposed to an offwind foresail) does start to make more sense if there is a mizzen (as windorpaddle says above). Bear in mind that the quickest and simplest way to reduce sail area is round mast furling with a bermudan - so another potential reason to think about a larger main rather than adding more sails.
    Last edited by GavinM; 4th-January-2012 at 10:54 AM.

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    I would very much agree with your thinking, Peregrine. From both theoretical and practical-experience points of view. My spinnaker is useful as a reaching "turbo charger" but at 4.4sqm/47sqft is a bit large and exciting in F3+. When running it is also useful but still rigged as a headsail. I've found that setting the tack at the mast stops it from being blanketed by the main. The sheets run right back to my seat, the cleats being screwed to the hanger/spacers - handy but out of the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unk tantor View Post
    My thinking was that the backstay would be rigged up on the beach but could be easily let go to enable reefing and/or mast recover in event of a blow up or capsize. The backstay would fly loose but could be brought down the mast and stored in a similar way to the halyard. A bit messy and time consuming if you need to reef in a hurry but then I only sail, so far, on relatively confined estuary waters, on extended open crossings this might be less then ideal.
    Yeah the long backstay that could be released to allow reefing is the same as I thought (when not in use it could be simply wound into the main as it reefs around the mast). My point with the "anchor loop" is that it would allow you to reset the backstay again while on the water (i.e. clip the backstay into the anchor loop in the cockpit then haul it out to the stern, tie off the anchor loop and tension the backstay). I'm not sure how well I'm explaining this, it seems simple in my mind's eye but is a bit more difficult to explain.

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    I know what you are meaning, both Chris's! It could be made to work but more string and faffing - having the knife ready is important but if you use kevlar string you will need more than just a knife!

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    Yes, I know exactly what you meant too Chris! Like Keith says more string though!
    I did try to find 3mm Kevlar rope for my backstay following Keith's example but struggled to source any either in chandler or on line.
    Its a bit of a moot point anyhow because. as I said, all the backstay seemed to do was bend the upper part of the mast.

    I would be interested in what more experienced sailors here think of my internal sleeving of the mast idea.

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    I'd been considering a Pico jib a la Unk on my new boat when I get it but I was thinking of using it mainly for entertaining a passenger in light winds not really for added performance. I don't think I'd bother with a backstay (as you say Keith, too much faff).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    I'd been considering a Pico jib a la Unk on my new boat when I get it but I was thinking of using it mainly for entertaining a passenger in light winds not really for added performance. I don't think I'd bother with a backstay (as you say Keith, too much faff).
    I agree, adding a jib is also about aesthetics and entertainment and the technological challenge as much as anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unk tantor View Post
    I agree, adding a jib is also about aesthetics and entertainment and the technological challenge as much as anything else.
    Ahh, now I understand. The faff factor is part of the attraction. I can relate to that.
    After all, there are many more convenient and reliable ways of getting from A to B, but none so much fun or satisfying than by sail!
    Last edited by GavinM; 4th-January-2012 at 06:25 PM.

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    The Bermudan mast is quite tall and if I fitted one in my canoe, it would be held in place by little more than two 4mm diameter bolts (One at each end of my mast thwart) with my mast thwart little more that 42cm above my mast foot, which until quite recently was held in place with a few grams of apoxy glue!!! The forces of leverage from such a tall mast onto the mast foot via the fulcrum (The mast thwart) would be extreme without adding a jib attached to the very top of the mast, especially if there is no backstay.

    If you fit a backstay as well (Which you would certainly need IMHO) then lowering the jib when the wind picks up would need to be done in the correct order, i.e. forestay with jib first and backstay last.

    I think you have hit the nail on the head though. If youv'e got 5 sq/meters of sail area, you already have quite a lot for such a small/ narrow craft and the only reason you would want more sail is if you are A) Nuts & B) racing, the latter of which would give little advantage because your handicap would change and you would be no better off.

    As your rig is brilliant at reefing quickly while on the move and without any noticable loss of stability, why would you want to compromise that by adding a few extra square feet of sail and risk damaging your mast/ and or canoe? (In my case anyway)

    Just get yourself a sail number, come racing and improve your sailing skills using the rig you have and win races that way without increasing your sail area.
    If you want to go 50 mph across the water, why not buy a catamaran or better still a speedboat with two big Mercury 300's on the back.

    As my parents used to say, "It's not about the winning, it's about the taking part that counts". Yeah right!!

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    Steamerpoint

    Having just read all the above posts I'm not sure if your thoughts were for me or one of the others. Anyway - assuming for me-

    My mast thwart is held in very securely. It's both screwed and epoxied to the boat. Further more passes through the buoyancy tanks to the gunwales. The mast foot is bonded to the floor of the canoe with epoxy mixed with microfibre and then filleted with filleting blend. If anything I risk tearing out the floor of the canoe


    My reasons for considering a jib sail are twofold.

    Firstly to give enhanced performance in light to moderate winds (in mind that's from force 1 to force 4). I usually travel with another person on board for safety reasons when out in the estuary and my canoe is often heavily laden, so the extra power would be useful (and fun). Above force 4 and my mainsail is plenty as it is. (I can just about keep it un-reefed as the wind gets to force 5 but I'm on the limit and hiked well out over the side. Above this and I have to swallow my pride and reef, but that's to save the boat rather than to stay upright.

    Secondly it would also allow two of us to sail together rather than just swapping around at the helm.

    However, it really has nothing to do with racing at all -

    Just thought though that a jib my actually be difficult with my wave deflector thingy fixed on the fore-deck - Doh!!!

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve C View Post

    Secondly it would also allow two of us to sail together rather than just swapping around at the helm.

    However, it really has nothing to do with racing at all -


    Steve
    That mirrors my thoughts pretty much. I thought it'd be nice to get any "crew" involved in sailing in light winds (I'm thinking mostly of SWMBO here). In stronger winds I think there'd be plenty to keep them entertained without a jib (hiking out, shielding me from spray etc), not that I'd take Val out in strong winds anyway.

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    Our (ie other half's and mine) experience of using a jib in both our present and previous boats has been that the crew is not in ideal place for sheeting the jib. The sheets have been led back to cleats on the centre thwart and it's often easier for the helm to tend them. A foresail affects the view - from the scenery and lookout sense of the word! The jib of about 14 sqft is bad enough but the genoa at 25 sqft is much worse for both these factors. Genoa pulls like a train in the right conditions tho!

    When it gets a bit blowy all of a sudden and the foresail is eased then the sheets lash around in crew's face and she has a sense of humour failure, understandably! So much so that we don't use one at all when sailing together...

    We have a bit of a play with the spinnaker on the right sort of gentle day - can be entertaining and be dropped very pronto when necessary. I have made a netting pouch to make it quick and easy to stow.

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    Jib has got to be do-able - though perhaps best in lightish airs.

    You only really need luff tension when you are hard on the wind - off the wind a bit of sag does no real harm.....

    One of the classic ways to account for (oppose/realise) the luff tension is with running backstays - indeed it was the only way to do it when sails had four corners and some sort of gaff or yard.

    So the obvious problem is to accommodate the revolving mast.

    Method 1 - masthead bearing set allows the running (or indeed fixed) backstays and the headstay/jib to remain in position while the mast spins..... I can see about eleventeen ways of that going wrong - but persistence may be rewarded.

    Method two - Rig a fixed loop - could be of rope or tape just above where you want the head of the jib
    to this clip - a snapshackle with two tails for use as running stays and the head of the jib itself (or the swivel if you plan to use a furler) - This setup can be rigged ashore and can be reefed - but can only be dumped once per outing.

    When it's time to reef - trigger the snapshackle - have the crew gather and stow the whole plot then roller reef as normal.
    You probably need a second snapshackle at the tack.

    http://www.mailspeedmarine.com/shack...2-896679.bhtml

    N.B. - going from unstayed to stayed you might want to re-think the compression loads on the mast foot.....

    P.S. - a High cut clew is a godsend from the vis. point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougR View Post
    Jib has got to be do-able - though perhaps best in lightish airs.

    You only really need luff tension when you are hard on the wind - off the wind a bit of sag does no real harm.....

    One of the classic ways to account for (oppose/realise) the luff tension is with running backstays - indeed it was the only way to do it when sails had four corners and some sort of gaff or yard.

    So the obvious problem is to accommodate the revolving mast.

    Method 1 - masthead bearing set allows the running (or indeed fixed) backstays and the headstay/jib to remain in position while the mast spins..... I can see about eleventeen ways of that going wrong - but persistence may be rewarded.

    Method two - Rig a fixed loop - could be of rope or tape just above where you want the head of the jib
    to this clip - a snapshackle with two tails for use as running stays and the head of the jib itself (or the swivel if you plan to use a furler) - This setup can be rigged ashore and can be reefed - but can only be dumped once per outing.

    When it's time to reef - trigger the snapshackle - have the crew gather and stow the whole plot then roller reef as normal.
    You probably need a second snapshackle at the tack.

    http://www.mailspeedmarine.com/shack...2-896679.bhtml

    N.B. - going from unstayed to stayed you might want to re-think the compression loads on the mast foot.....

    P.S. - a High cut clew is a godsend from the vis. point of view.
    re Method one - that's what one of our members has done - Graham has some sort of rotating plate on the head of the mast for the backstay. Seems to be a challenge to make sure it actually rotates, both at the top and it may make the mast rotation tougher at the bottom as well, due to the extra compression. Lots of issues, as you say!

    re Method two - lots to play with! Would be too much of a pain for my tastes. I remember the hassle factor when gybing a gaff rigged 60ft training ship with its running backstays - best avoided due to the forces and weight aloft but we were in narrow Dutch canals so had no choice.

    Fair comment re high cut clews - my jib is fairly high but still somewhat obstructive. The Pico ones are nice and high but rather too small to be much use other than as entertainment. With a high clew the sheeting angles need more thought, depending on where you fix the tack - the higher the clew the further back you need the sheetleads/cleats.
    Last edited by windorpaddle; 4th-January-2012 at 10:26 PM.

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    Steve, is your mast foot made of wood? The reason I ask is that Ian (IDC) had a wooden one break away with a 35 sqr/ft rig, but he believes that the wooden foot was allowed to become saturated in water for too long and the wood itself began to break down! Mine is wooden, but for extra safety, after glueing it in place with G-Flex, I screwed it in place with 4-screws through from the bottom. Each time I finish with the canoe, I dry the mast foot and store the canoe in my garage out of the weather. Now my mast thwart is the weakest link but with my 35 sq/ft rig, I am comfortable that the bolts are strong enough. If I went up to a 44 sq/ft Bermudan or bigger, I would definitely beef up the mast thwart.

    The racing reference was general. I love racing and am secretly trying to rekindle it among canoe sailors.

    I never thought about the snapshackle idea. That's a really good suggestion Doug. A very affordable quick release system.

    I know what you mean about keeping the crew occupied and engaged. My son gets a bit bored after an hour, while I'm luvin it, luvin it, luvin it! Not sure of the answer though. I keep him busy with bailing out the spray that keeps coming in, but start to feel guilty after a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    The racing reference was general. I love racing and am secretly trying to rekindle it among canoe sailors.
    Oh really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Oh really?
    Dam, I said that out loud didn't I?!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve C View Post

    Just thought though that a jib my actually be difficult with my wave deflector thingy fixed on the fore-deck - Doh!!!

    Steve
    The high cut clew like the pico jib should clear the cuddy Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Steve, is your mast foot made of wood? The reason I ask is that Ian (IDC) had a wooden one break away with a 35 sqr/ft rig, but he believes that the wooden foot was allowed to become saturated in water for too long and the wood itself began to break down! Mine is wooden, but for extra safety, after glueing it in place with G-Flex, I screwed it in place with 4-screws through from the bottom.
    <snip>...
    Hi Chris (and all),
    Just to expand on your anecdote, my first attempt at gluing in the mast foot clearly didn't apply enough epoxy (and cheap, two-part glue type from the DIY store at that), nor enough pre-epoxy sanding and prep. It never got the chance to break away while sailing because I lent the canoe to some friends who paddled it full of water for a day, without bailing (it seems); and at the end of the day discovered the foot floating in the water among all the heavy expedition bags. We inferred that the wood had swelled with the water and the resultant forces--perhaps with the help of a glancing blow from one of those heavy bags sloshing around in the canoe--had 'popped' it off the hull. It did worry me what would have happened if I'd had the chance to sail it in strong weather and my dodgy work had had to face any strain. So for my second attempt at gluing it in, lots of prep and sanding was done, proper epoxy was used to glue, and generous fillets were applied around the foot to prevent water working its way under the foot. No problems since (fingers crossed).

    Very dear friends they are, but I still have trouble understanding people willing to share a canoe for hours with several inches of water in the bottom. Surely it is just plain uncomfortable *not* to bail the stuff out and mop up!

    All the best,
    Ian

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    I think that on boats ive seen using a forestay, the mast is stood on a mast foot thats usually at least 2 inches tall and several feet long to spread the downforce generated.

    If you try running a forestay without a strong enough setup, you will deform the bottom of the boat and may even put your mast through the bottom.

    This risk would increase if you use a backstay too.

    Not sure if all the canoes you are thinking of using back and forestays on are decked, but if not, they stand a good chance of folding the boat in half when its under load, as the side tanks and decks strengthen the hulls.

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    I'm really not sure about this now. It seemed like a good idea to start with but ???

    May be I'll have to borrow a jib (my dad has a comet zero) and set up some jury arrangement just to see.

    Steve

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    Having a look see...

    Sounds good to me

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