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Thread: Pics of my sailing setup thus far - criticism/tips/derision welcome!

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    Default Pics of my sailing setup thus far - criticism/tips/derision welcome!

    Thought I'd post a few pics of how far I've got with converting the trusty OT Disco 158 for sailing. Been out on her a couple of times now and pleased with my efforts but I would welcome any input from those more proficient at sailing than me (all of you basically). Still on the to do list is to make some outriggers, and make new lee boards and rudder with aerofoil section. Its all been done on a very limited budget - under 300 for the whole thing including the canoe - so she may not be pretty but I've been able to get on the water despite tough times.



    Mast foot is bolted and G-flexed through hull. Bracing is oak. Made it pretty substantial as its a big old sail (44 sq ft)





    Lee board thwart clamps using pushbike wheel cam levers. Metal angle screwed and G-flexed to thwart.



    Rudder and stock, oak and ply, stainless fire door hinges used for gudgeon/pintles and you can just make out the uphaul line



    Rudder mount held onto canoe by lug that locates in hole in canoe and a pin that slides thru mount and canoe





    Tiller arm is extended boat hook, passing thru loop attached to seat to keep it close to hand



    I strap a barrel fore and aft for extra buoyancy, side bags are dry bags with inflated thermarests in! A bit heath robinson, but it is very floaty after capsize. Last but not least, my most essential upgrade is a rope stirrup attached to rear/kneeling thwart for post capsize recovery. Will do one on each side out of floating rope before next session. really works well - boat just flips upright and in you get.

    Last edited by fredster; 5th-October-2011 at 05:12 PM.

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    Love it.
    Looks awesome!

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    That mast thwart/foot looks excellent Fredster, very substantial. Ingenious side airbags too, I like it. You may find that your leeboard mount needs reinforcing as you get out in stronger winds, there's a huge amount of pressure on them. Gailainne had one on his canoe that he thought was plenty strong enough and it bent like plasticine! The "more knowledgeable section" will no doubt be along soon to cast an expert eye over it but I reckon it all looks pretty good, well done.

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    It really does look good - and all for ~300? Amazing!

    I definitely know less about sailing than you but with that sail I wouldn't want to be in anything faster than a force 2-3 before getting the outriggers fitted. Mind you, going with the wind I'm sure you'll have one of the fastest canoes out there. Great job.

    MP

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    Your leeboard bracket will definitely not be strong enough as you get more proficient and sail in stronger wind. The ones that we use are 3 1/2 inch by 3 1/2inch by 3/8 inch thick. We tried 1/4inch thick to start with and managed to bend them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Your leeboard bracket will definitely not be strong enough as you get more proficient and sail in stronger wind. The ones that we use are 3 1/2 inch by 3 1/2inch by 3/8 inch thick. We tried 1/4inch thick to start with and managed to bend them.
    How thick can I get away with using Ally?

    I seem to be doing things the other way around to fred. I can't afford the sail yet, so I'm just making bits to go on the boat first.

    Couple of weeks back I made a pair of out riggers, which may have been a tad too small. But good prototypes, just need to be twice as big.

    And today I have just finished a leeboard, salvaged from a door. Made from 20mm rough looking ply, just need a rudder now (plenty of door left)
    Last edited by joe.ford; 5th-October-2011 at 08:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredster View Post


    I've my doubts about that cooking arrangement: I know I take weight considerations a bit far sometimes... but I believe most of us manage with slightly smaller fuel containers

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Your leeboard bracket will definitely not be strong enough as you get more proficient and sail in stronger wind. The ones that we use are 3 1/2 inch by 3 1/2inch by 3/8 inch thick. We tried 1/4inch thick to start with and managed to bend them.
    Is that in ally Dave or steel? Mine are steel, 4mm thick and boards (there will be two eventually) are 3 foot long. I must admit to having a suspicion that my brackets would be weak spot and wondered about using a hardwood block at each end of thwart, say, 3" cubed to take the load a bit better? Failing that I can fabricate chunkier metal brackets as I have a welder.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregandGinaS View Post
    I've my doubts about that cooking arrangement: I know I take weight considerations a bit far sometimes... but I believe most of us manage with slightly smaller fuel containers
    Arf! Nothing worse than being camped miles from home, running out of gas and not being able to boil a kettle. I simply won't risk missing my morning cuppa.
    Last edited by fredster; 5th-October-2011 at 09:23 PM.

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    Thanks for posting some pics of your rig. I see what you mean, a lot of similarities with my own.

    Your clip-on rudder assembly looks tiny compared to mine, but then you have drilled 3-holes in your canoe to mount it, albeit just under the gunwales!

    As others have said, your mast thwart & foot looks great. A nice job and looks really fit for purpose.

    I would agree that the weakness in your rig is the leeboard mount. Only last weekend did I hit the concrete slipway with my leeboard as I sailed a bit too close to it and watched how my leeboard thwart tried to twist itself off the canoe for that split second. Luckily nothing broke, but the forces involved were pretty big. Half an hour later, I noticed that the club had put a few more buoys out to warn people of the slipway and the lowish water line!!!

    If you make a stronger, thicker bracket, I would also be tempted to make the bracket slightly bigger so that it has greater surface contact with the leeboard and the thwart to spread the forces out a little more. As you say, if you are fitting two leeboards, one on each side and they are much shorter that the SD leeboards, you might be okay as the leverage on each bracket will be smaller. In addition to this, should a bracket fail while sailing hard, you still have another leeboard to save your bacon. I might be tempted to fit the other leeboard and see how you get on!

    As for outriggers, I am trying not to go down that route if I can help it. As my experience at sailing my canoe grows, I feel that I can handle stronger & stronger winds and find myself looking upwind at other boats or at the surface of the water for the next big gust, but then I do most of my sailing on inland lakes and might feel differently if I was in the sea or on a large expanse of water. I am also picky and am avoiding F5+ winds at the moment.

    We were messing about with rope stirrups last weekend. Have you tried yours and found them to be the right length? We found that the toe loops needed to be much higher than yours seem to be. Almost a foot higher in fact because as you push down on them, they push away under the canoe towards the other side!

    It all looks good though, well done. I don't think people know just how much work goes into converting these canoes into sailing canoes, until they have done it themselves.

    Give me a shout if you are testing it out in these parts sometime and I'll try to join you.

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    Cheers for comments and tips Chris - rudder mount looks a bit sketchy I know but it feels rock solid. I put a fair amount of force on it when testing it and it didn't budge an inch. Obviously the true test will be some strong wind - will report back if it it fails at all. I will be improving the lee board bracket. For now I'll just weld a larger bracket and put some strengthening on it, but to be honest its early days and I'm only going out in light winds. Like you say with two smaller lee boards the stress to thwarts and brackets is reduced somewhat compared to a larger board, but obviously everything on boat has to be man enough for the job.

    I know what you mean about outriggers, but it is my intention eventually to get this canoe out to sea (albeit close to shore) to get round to Deben and Walton backwaters and to have them will be reassuring in these choppier waters. My brother has a well equipped joinery shop so anything made of wood is free or very cheap for me to make! Just need to construct a steamer to bend the ash outrigger beams now.

    I'm sure our paths will cross in the future, look forward to meeting you at a meet.

    Edit: forgot to say, stirrup length as pictured worked really well for me. Its main function is to get the boat (with sail and mast attached) upright. My canoe has a lot of flotation so from there its easy to get back in canoe without using the stirrup. Having said that I might experiment with a second loop higher up to use for getting back in boat.
    Last edited by fredster; 6th-October-2011 at 07:37 AM.

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    Using just screws (even with good glue like you have) to attach the leeboard angle bracket to the thwart is a risk in my opinion. There's so much force involved as mentioned, especially on the "wrong" tack. I would be inclined to use countersunk head bolts (technically called machine screws) with the nuts on top of a bigger bracket.

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    Default A little hijack ;)

    Just to hijack the thread a little, and to save starting an identical thread

    (a little edit) forgot to add the before shot



    Here's some pictures of the leeboard, it's 4ft long by about 1ft and was (before sanding) 18mm thick



    The normal looking back and below a strange looking front, but I like



    What is best to varnish it with?

    Joe
    Last edited by joe.ford; 6th-October-2011 at 03:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    Using just screws (even with good glue like you have) to attach the leeboard angle bracket to the thwart is a risk in my opinion. There's so much force involved as mentioned, especially on the "wrong" tack. I would be inclined to use countersunk head bolts (technically called machine screws) with the nuts on top of a bigger bracket.
    It's going to seem as if I'm picking out Gailainne here (I'm not doing) but he had that very thing happen to him. He bought the Solway Dory leeboard bracket to replace the "plasticine" (alloy) bracket that I mentioned failing above. He attached it (the new SD bracket) to his leeboard thwart with four big countersunk stainless screws but all four of them ripped out at the OCSG Ullswater Classic meet. This resulted in his leeboard falling off when we were trying to sail down the lake and we had to abandon the trip to go back and fix it. Luckily I had some stainless M6 nuts and bolts with me so we drilled through the screw holes and put the bolts through instead. It's been fine since then. I'll post a pic of the SD bracket to let you see it in a minute.

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    Just to hijack the thread a little, and to save starting an identical thread

    Here's some pictures of the leeboard, it's 4ft long by about 1ft and was (before sanding) 18mm thick
    Oh no, it's definitely going to seem like I'm picking on Gailainne now because..............................he made a leeboard from ply, sheathed with mat and epoxy and that broke at OCSG Loch Ken meet (admittedly in very strong gusty winds). I think it was due to an unseen void in the ply causing a structural weakness. He'd tell you all these things himself but he's not been on SOTP much recently (he's been busy building a McGregor sailing canoe but I'm sure that'll be built like a Dreadnought! ) Not saying your leeboard will break as well joe, he was probably just unlucky.

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    You can see details of Gailainne's original set up here (including the plasticine leeboard bracket and the leeboard that broke). He's now using a 44sq ft SD Bermudan rig, SD leeboard and bracket on his original thwart and his original rudder set up (that's not shown on this thread) that works beautifully.
    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...91-Sailing-Rig

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Oh no, it's definitely going to seem like I'm picking on Gailainne now..............................he's not been on SOTP much recently
    Not surprised, probably scared to come on now

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    he made a leeboard from ply, sheathed with mat and epoxy and that broke at OCSG Loch Ken meet (admittedly in very strong gusty winds). I think it was due to an unseen void in the ply causing a structural weakness. He'd tell you all these things himself but he's not been on SOTP much recently (he's been busy building a McGregor sailing canoe but I'm sure that'll be built like a Dreadnought! ) Not saying your leeboard will break as well joe, he was probably just unlucky.
    Well Ive already got the Dreadnought (which fredster has named the Bismark) which I'm hoping to use for sailing, because when I hit something it will surely come off worse than my little craft. I'm told not to shoot weirs in it, as I'll break the weir

    The leeboard is technically a prototype, but will most likely become pernament. (Unless it snaps)

    next stage is to make the rudder, and decide on which sailing rig I need (yes I have convinced myself, I really do need one)
    Last edited by joe.ford; 6th-October-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    Not surprised, probably scared to come on now



    next stage is to make the rudder, and decide on which sailing rig I need (yes I have convinced myself, I really do need one)
    You know it makes sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    You know it makes sense!
    I've decided I don't want the triangle sail (I think) Quite like the look of a lugsail. Would quite like something the same size as freds, so when (If) I get good I'm not left too far behind. Going upwind and down.

    And ideally if there is a magical rig that means I don't end up like this too often
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    Here's some pictures of my SD leeboard bracket. I hope they don't mind me showing you (I'm sure they won't). Of course you could just give Solway Dory a phone and buy one of their brackets so that you know it won't fail. They sell them separately from the thwart at a very reasonable price.





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    I've decided I don't want the triangle sail (I think) Quite like the look of a lugsail. Would quite like something the same size as freds, so when (If) I get good I'm not left too far behind. Going upwind and down.
    It sounds like the 44sq ft SD Lugsail is what you need Joe. I have the 35sq ft Expedition Rig (High Spec with reefing points) and while it won't perform quite as well as a big Bermudan (triangle) rig it's surprisingly good. I often sail with people who have big Bermudan rigs and they don't have to wait too long for me to catch up. The Expedition Rig is also a bit cheaper than the bigger full spec Lugsail. Probably the best thing would be to go to an OCSG meet so you can look at all the different types of sails and chat to people about the pros and cons of their set ups (they're also great fun to go to as well).

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    Nice work Joe - although I feel duty bound to tell you (as others have told me) that ply is not the best material for lee boards and rudders as half the grain is going in a direction that offers no strength. Having said that, thats what mine are made of as you know so at least we'll both be limited to milder conditions to learn in. I'm going to pester my chippy mate with a Makita planer to help me aero-section some hardwood planks for rudder and boards soon, the thought of all that planing by hand just doesn't bear thinking about. I've done an ash paddle that way, 'twas exhausting and removed only a fraction of the wood that would have to be shifted from rudder and lee board planks.

    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    Using just screws (even with good glue like you have) to attach the leeboard angle bracket to the thwart is a risk in my opinion. There's so much force involved as mentioned, especially on the "wrong" tack. I would be inclined to use countersunk head bolts (technically called machine screws) with the nuts on top of a bigger bracket.
    Thats a good tip Keith cheers, will get it done before next sailing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    Here's some pictures of my SD leeboard bracket. I hope they don't mind me showing you (I'm sure they won't). Of course you could just give Solway Dory a phone and buy one of their brackets so that you know it won't fail. They sell them separately from the thwart at a very reasonable price.
    Also a good tip! Money very tight at the mo though so I'm going along the path of bigger brackets in heavy gauge steel, attached as Keith suggests. I'll also reinforce brackets with a triangular piece of steel welded at each end and post some pics on here when done.

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    I'll also reinforce brackets with a triangular piece of steel welded at each end and post some pics on here when done.
    That sounds like it'd be strong enough, the triangular pieces would eliminate flex which may otherwise cause the bracket to fail.

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    Here we are then. Beefed them up, attached with g-flex and machine screws and made them longer and larger so thwart clamp goes through bracket and more area of bracket against lee board. Should do the job I hope.


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    That looks a lot stronger. Should do the job nicely.

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    A most useful and informative thread.Thanks for sharing. (After many months,my 3 plank sharpie canoe-also called a 6 hour canoe!-is again under construction.I'll certainly be using many of your ideas like the mast partner/thwart/step and the rudder hinges. )

    Maybe next year we can have a South East row/paddle/sail meet. Herne Bay to Harty Ferry with the tide,a meal at the Ferry Inn on Sheppey and back on the ebb springs to mind.Or maybe you've some places on the other side for something similar?

    There has been so much good advice from Dave S on these threads.The only problem I have found is that one has to open another window to type in the Solway Dory address.

    Maybe Dave S could could have the SD address as his tag line so one could simply click and look at the SD products and adventure sailing blogs.
    Last edited by andre; 10th-October-2011 at 04:27 PM. Reason: punctuation

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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post

    There has been so much good advice from Dave S on these threads.The only problem I have found is that one has to open another window to type in the Solway Dory address.

    Maybe Dave S could could have the SD address as his tag line so one could simply click and look at the SD products and adventure sailing blogs.
    Far be it for me to speak for Dave S but I think that he likes to keep a small degree of separation between his SOTP persona and Solway Dory for fear of being seen as pushing SD products on here. I think he prefers to let the products themselves do the talking and rely on satisfied customers to sing their praises. Dave S (and Dave and Jan P) are true canoe sailing enthusiasts in my experience and whilst they are obviously in business to make a living they're passionate about canoe sailing. Hence Dave is happy to give advice and share his vast experience even when it is unlikely to result in a sale. I don't have any connection with SD other than using their products (and I've been very impressed with everything I've bought from them). I've also had loads of advice and assistance from them (as have many canoe sailors).

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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    ...Maybe next year we can have a South East row/paddle/sail meet. Herne Bay to Harty Ferry with the tide,a meal at the Ferry Inn on Sheppey and back on the ebb springs to mind.Or maybe you've some places on the other side for something similar?

    There has been so much good advice from Dave S on these threads...
    Deffo up for a sailing/paddling meet Andre - think there's a few canoe sailors in the south east that might be keen to join in.

    ...and agree with you on Dave S and the Solway Dory thing. Sooner or later I'll end up doing it properly and buying some of they're kit, but for now money's tight so its DIY time. Fun way to learn really!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredster View Post

    ...and agree with you on Dave S and the Solway Dory thing. Sooner or later I'll end up doing it properly and buying some of they're kit, but for now money's tight so its DIY time. Fun way to learn really!
    Me too, had a chat with one of the Daves today (I think) and found my bit of angle ally is way too thin (6mm)

    But on the plus side, the leeboard has now been finished and varnished.

    Now when will the wind stop so Fred can test it for me
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    Nice thread, sometimes you learn by trying things, and seeing what works and what doesn't, some people just like to buy ready made, part of the fun for me of trying something new is putting my mind to work to solve problems and making things. With the stuff I made, I had failures and successes, the leeboard bracket, ply leeboard, were failures, basically not understanding the forces involved, not the steady forces, but the ones created by wind gusts, especially after doubling the sail area to a 44 sq ft bermudan after my little balanced lug.

    With the leeboard bracket I had 2 failures, the first was using a grade of aluminium that was too soft for the bracket. After buying a SD brkt he 2nd was using screws that tore out because water had gotten in and weakened the wood, so screws either need to be countersunk and sealed or replaced by bolts and nuts.

    The ply leeboard, was as Chris suggested probably a void in the ply, (it was exterior grade not marine grade). a layer of fiberglass would have been ample to make it strong enough, but truthfully the beauty and function of one of the Daves solid ash leeboards is worth every penny. BTW I still enjoyed figuring out a naca airfoil section and designing and building a jig that would allow me to accurately cut that section into a ply board 18 mm thk by 250mm wide by 1m lg.

    Successes, so far

    My removable leeboard thwart, my rudder setup, and finally my design for an outrigger system, (even if it is a bit eccentric)

    Stephen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    a layer of fiberglass would have been ample to make it strong enough, but truthfully the beauty and function of one of the Daves solid ash leeboards is worth every penny. BTW I still enjoyed figuring out a naca airfoil section and designing and building a jig that would allow me to accurately cut that section into a ply board 18 mm thk by 250mm wide by 1m lg.

    Successes, so far

    My removable leeboard thwart, my rudder setup, and finally my design for an outrigger system, (even if it is a bit eccentric)

    Stephen
    Ah I thought for some reason your leeboard was sheathed (is it the rudder blade then?). Fair play to you for having the ability to make the stuff yourself. I'm too talentless and lazy to do it so I just bought all my bits. I spend ages looking at the self build canoes on SOTP and wishing I had the facilities, space and skills required to build a canoe myself. Maybe I'll try some day if I pluck up the courage (I could always chop it up and burn it in my Kelly Kettle if it didn't work out! )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post

    The ply leeboard, was as Chris suggested probably a void in the ply, (it was exterior grade not marine grade). a layer of fiberglass would have been ample to make it strong enough, but truthfully the beauty and function of one of the Daves solid ash leeboards is worth every penny. BTW I still enjoyed figuring out a naca airfoil section and designing and building a jig that would allow me to accurately cut that section into a ply board 18 mm thk by 250mm wide by 1m lg.

    Successes, so far

    My removable leeboard thwart, my rudder setup, and finally my design for an outrigger system, (even if it is a bit eccentric)

    Stephen
    Ah I thought for some reason your leeboard was sheathed (is it the rudder blade then?). Fair play to you for having the ability to make the stuff yourself. I'm too talentless and lazy to do it so I just bought all my bits. I spend ages looking at the self build canoes on SOTP and wishing I had the facilities, space and skills required to build a canoe myself. Maybe I'll try some day if I pluck up the courage (I could always chop it up and burn it in my Kelly Kettle if it didn't work out!)

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    I think it is great that people have a go at making things themselves. That is how i started out canoe sailing , and indeed i am still doing it now. My best advice though would be to spend lots of time doing research first and search the forums etc for what has worked well and more importantly, what has failed. People who are starting out on a low budget often waste a lot of time and money re-inventing the same mistakes that others have made and often make several attempts at getting it right when spending a bit more time on research and planning would get there more quickly and more cheaply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    I think it is great that people have a go at making things themselves. That is how i started out canoe sailing , and indeed i am still doing it now. My best advice though would be to spend lots of time doing research first and search the forums etc for what has worked well and more importantly, what has failed. People who are starting out on a low budget often waste a lot of time and money re-inventing the same mistakes that others have made and often make several attempts at getting it right when spending a bit more time on research and planning would get there more quickly and more cheaply.
    Wisdom

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    Just a thought, does anyone know if small leaf lime would be a suitable wood for a leeboard / rudder?
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    Default just to continue the hijack

    Just completed a kickup rudder today, just needs varnishing and a lot of sanding. But at least it works smoothly now. Hope you like the garish colour of the cord

    Down position



    And the Up position (just to prove it goes up too) with self setting built in (read it as there are some tight spots still)

    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Looks great Joe.

    Did you go for plywood in the end then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Looks great Joe.

    Did you go for plywood in the end then?
    At the moment I'm looking at using ply for the prototypes.

    And of course it goes nicely with the Plywood canoe
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    I know I'm going to regret asking this but, what the hell

    In readiness for the new Sailing rig......

    How do you know where to put the mast foot and thwart?

    I already have these set up, but are positioned for the poling pole sail set up (the square sail) But I suspect that it needs moving further forward (infront of the front seat) as the canoe is 14foot long, and it would give me a bit more room in the rear

    (here's the canoe, just for visual reference )

    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Joe, I am sure more experienced folk will come along to give better advice, but to my mind I would consider sailing your canoe backwards so that you are sitting on the front seat and then fit the mast thwart & mast foot just behind the back seat. (Which would now be the forward seat when sailing) Unfortunately, this might then be in the way when you want to go paddling again, so using bolts with wingnuts to secure the mast thwart would be an option!

    Essentially your leeboard wants to be at the widest part of the canoe and your leeboard wants to be in line (Or just behind) the centre of effort of the sail.

    Just google how to measure the centre of effort on your sail as different sail types have different ways of measuring. Mine worked out at being 18-inches to 2-feet forward of my centre yoke/ leeboard.

    Getting this bit right will determine how manoeuvrable your canoe sails, so worth spending some time calculating the right position. Hope this helps a little?

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    Had a lttle test paddle today with the new rudder, here's some pictures of my set up



    Sail currently down and no rudder attached, just the bracket attached to the gunnels.



    Here's my set up (until new sail arrives). Too lazy to put sail away so just plonked it on trolley and did it at the car, also made a nice shot



    And finally the new clamp and rudder.

    After solving a minor technical issue, everything worked very well. Why don't we use rudders more often? Very useful when paddling into a head wind.

    Got a video to put on later, when I find the camera cable
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Thanks for the reply Chris, Don't really like the idea of paddling it backwards. As although it dos'nt look it has got a front and back It's not that it's an asymmetrical hull, more the fact that one end came out stronger than the other
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Looks good Joe. Your Clip-on rudder looks simple to strap into place.

    Do you have a tiller/ push-pull tiller somewhere? I can't see how you would operate the rudder while sailing.

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    Have you considerd a cat rig ? manufacturing for sea kayaks is diferant from Canoes, we mount forword so we can clear the sail with a dubbel padel, and so we can flaten them against the deck. Cat riging is a mast mounted as fare forwword as posabel, dont now how it wold sail , the advantage is it frees up space in the boat . it may be worth while reserching cat riged boats

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Looks good Joe. Your Clip-on rudder looks simple to strap into place.

    Do you have a tiller/ push-pull tiller somewhere? I can't see how you would operate the rudder while sailing.
    I've got the standard pushpull tiller(hidden on the right hand side). I did it the classic way of "that looks long enough". Then found it was a tad too short.

    I also did the other classic thing of make the tiller up, without making sure it works on the canoe, the gunnels and clamp get in the way, so I had to hold it below the gunnels on the outside (hand in the water method)

    Needs a few tweeks, and to raise the rudder up a few inches so the stock isn't in the water

    Joe
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    Needs a few tweeks, and to raise the rudder up a few inches so the stock isn't in the water

    Joe
    Sounds familiar. I had difficulties initially with my traditional tiller fouling on the sheet, which was tied to my rear seat. Later I developed a steel frame that allows my tiller to pass under, while the sheet bridle is tied above. Now works a treat.

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    I noticed you braced your mast foot diagonally against the underside of the thwart.

    In the same manner, would it be possible to fit a brace between the top of the dutch board handle and a second swivel mounted in the middle of the board thwart? This would take considerable load off the single pivot you are using at present.

    If my description doesnt make sense, please say so and I will attampt a drawing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mick m View Post
    Have you considerd a cat rig ? manufacturing for sea kayaks is diferant from Canoes, we mount forword so we can clear the sail with a dubbel padel, and so we can flaten them against the deck. Cat riging is a mast mounted as fare forwword as posabel, dont now how it wold sail , the advantage is it frees up space in the boat . it may be worth while reserching cat riged boats
    I've been wondering about moving my mast further forward, Mick. Haven't got around to it yet, but I have been looking at rigs like the Kuvia Kayaksailor and your own Flat Earth sails and have been envying you the ability to raise a paddle without getting arms and neck entangled in boom or sheet. I was advised by Dave (of SD) that one would need to run halyards back to where one was sitting. I suspect it will be a while before I get around to it ...

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    Hi, its easy to run an un stayed mast by having a tube for the mast to slot into , or a hole in a thot and a mast step block for it to sit in . if you do run stays thay wont need to run fare back from the mast , id imagin only about 300mm

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    Your sailing rig looks great to me. I'm very envious. I think most yachts and dinghys would have the mast and lee board set more forward, particularly as you don't have a jib to balance the rig. It might be worth experimenting a little. If the balance is right, when you leave go of the main sheet and the rudder the boat should gradually turn up to be head to wind. I've sailed into Walton Backwaters and the River Deben many times. At low tide you can usually watch the seals on the way in to the Backwatwers and there's a nice beach just inside the entrance on the port side. The Deben entrance can be quite tricky with fast tides. Best to keep away if there's an Easterly wind.

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    Been fiddling with the canoe again.

    I've got my flotation sorted, I've gone for the Fredster special. The exercise ball a whole 6.99 each from Argos.

    Have to glue in the straps yet.



    I'm also now on the Mk2 Rudder, well reworked mk1. The uphaul and downhaul lines were catching, so whilst looking in the stock, I came across some spare fuel pipe (copper pipe). So after a bit of gentle tapping with a BIG hammer, I had this



    Also now on the Mk2 clamp. didn't like the old set up, it was too fiddly to get on and off. New method.

    Push onto the end of the canoe, and strap to the seat or gunnels. Using rope here (painters) as I was too lazy to go to the car and get the straps



    And the final shot of the rudder, all set up. No the copper pipe isn't going to be that long, need to get the hang of pipe bending before I trim them down

    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    I think that your buoyancy, whilst being inexpensive, might not work well enough in a capsize. If you are sailing and you capsize a long way from the shore, you really need to be able to re-enter the canoe and still be able to bail the water out. Your canoe, whilst not sinking, will come up full to the gunwales and will be probably not be bailable. The standard minimum used in the OCSG is fore and aft bags AND side buoyancy. Correctly positioned buoyancy in a sailing canoe is the biggest factor in safety and not something to save a few quid on. I am not allowed to sell a sailing canoe unless it passes tests that prove it can be righted, re-entered AND bailed dry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    I think that your buoyancy, whilst being inexpensive, might not work well enough in a capsize. If you are sailing and you capsize a long way from the shore, you really need to be able to re-enter the canoe and still be able to bail the water out. Your canoe, whilst not sinking, will come up full to the gunwales and will be probably not be bailable. The standard minimum used in the OCSG is fore and aft bags AND side buoyancy. Correctly positioned buoyancy in a sailing canoe is the biggest factor in safety and not something to save a few quid on. I am not allowed to sell a sailing canoe unless it passes tests that prove it can be righted, re-entered AND bailed dry.
    Funnily enough I was looking at the side bags earlier, will have to get some I think. After seeing Freds side bags, I'm impressed. Not only do they provide flotation, but they also make a comfy seat (not that I'm brave enough for that yet)
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    The rudder blade pivot bolt...Its washers...

    I use two polythene lids from ice cream tubs (not the white ones, the semi transparent ones), and cut two 4" washers from them. These stop the rudder sticking in the stock when it gets wet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Idea View Post
    The rudder blade pivot bolt...Its washers...

    I use two polythene lids from ice cream tubs (not the white ones, the semi transparent ones), and cut two 4" washers from them. These stop the rudder sticking in the stock when it gets wet.
    That could explain it, I just thought the ply had expanded due to getting wet. I didn't do a very good job with the varnish (apparently)

    Oh no this means I'll have to eat that tub of ice cream now. What a shame
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Good morning,
    Im geting a lot of engoyment from reading this thred, I love making my own gear to, so much that I started doing it comershaly .
    I make up gear for sea kayaks mostly , but for sume un explanabel reson I wont to make a sail that sutes a open canoe, Im after a starting point , on dimentions , tipe and fetures you might wont in your sails , I think I can probably suply at a good cost to. eny help wold be apresiated , in patiqular Im after theas dimentions luff length, leech length , gaff length and deg of the mast and foot/boom length, do you prefer a boomed sail or loos footed ? and if you know, how much twist and the % of fulness ? eny comnts and input most apresiated

  56. #56
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    I have a little question about the rudder.

    How good a fit should it be in the stock? It appears I made it a very good fit. It seems to move ok when I grab the end and move it, especially being as it's about 3 ft from the pivot point and has more leverage behind it.

    But when I use the strings it's quite heavy (and probably a tad tight), of course this might be different in the water with the rudder trying to float up. Should have inspected Freds more closely

    And lastly, does anybody know if epoxy resin sticks to royalex?

    Joe
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post

    And lastly, does anybody know if epoxy resin sticks to royalex?

    Joe
    It depends what type you use Joe, normal epoxy such as West System 105 will stick to a certain extent but will tend to crack off if the canoe flexes. What you need is West System G-Flex, it's designed to work with plastics like Royalex and will stay intact even if the plastic flexes. I've used it (along with quite a few others including Solway Dory) to attach the mast foot and D ring patches in my Royalex canoe and it's remarkable stuff. It's fairly expensive but worth it imho. More info here (including some amusing and impressive videos). http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/

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    Agreed. Amazing stuff. 35 a go but if you consider how much that quantity of Araldite would cost its not too dear.

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    I was hoping to use the epoxy that is left over from building the canoe.

    It's from Rob at http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/ He used to be on here as epoxymanuk

    Got any left Fred? 35 seems over the top just to glue in 1 mast foot I suppose there is always Duck tape, I could duck tape the mast foot in
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    I was hoping to use the epoxy that is left over from building the canoe.

    It's from Rob at http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/ He used to be on here as epoxymanuk

    Got any left Fred? 35 seems over the top just to glue in 1 mast foot
    I suspect that you'd encounter problems when you sailed in any kind of stronger winds Joe and if the mast foot comes unstuck you could be looking at damage to the mast thwart and potentially the mast coming out and punching through the bottom of your canoe. The G-Flex is a lot to pay for one installation though it's true. Maybe Fred can help you out with some G-Flex? It has a shelf life so there's no point in hording it, failing that I'll see if I can find some small bottles and decant some of mine if you want?

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