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Thread: Useful modifications to your sailing canoe.

  1. #61
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    Thanks Jurassic, I think it may need some additional bolt downs on the front end , my concern is for a wave to get underneath the edge of the deck and push it up and rip it off.

  2. #62
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    That looks great. What about your bow handle? You could put a rope hadle through the gunwales.

  3. #63
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    There is normally an eye plate bolted on the front deck plate for the jib, so maybe I could fit a short rope handle with a clip on caribiner to that when the deck is in place.

  4. #64
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    I'm trying to finish my experimental bow deck this week end, I'm still to make a wave deflector, this will be a simple vertical sheet of ply, attached to the rear of the deck, not curved or tilted forward (too difficult). I'm wondering if anyone would care to suggest if there is a optimum wave deflector height off the deck or a minimum height?
    Thanks.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by unk tantor View Post
    I'm trying to finish my experimental bow deck this week end, I'm still to make a wave deflector, this will be a simple vertical sheet of ply, attached to the rear of the deck, not curved or tilted forward (too difficult). I'm wondering if anyone would care to suggest if there is a optimum wave deflector height off the deck or a minimum height?
    Thanks.
    2" is the answer, if anyones interested.

  6. #66
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    2 inch will be fine, but if lots of water does rush back along the fore deck it will jump a vertical coaming. So it will work to keep some of the water out and compared with your open boat it will be more seaworthy.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    2 inch will be fine, but if lots of water does rush back along the fore deck it will jump a vertical coaming. So it will work to keep some of the water out and compared with your open boat it will be more seaworthy.
    Thanks Dave, I may make another one in a marine ply and maybe create a laminated deflector with a curve or 'V' across the deck and forward slant.I also wasn't sure where the outriggers attach on a curlew; On the mast thwart or behind it?

  8. #68
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    We would normally put the outrigger beam on the mast thwart, with a hole through the middle for the mast. It is easy then to bolt the beam to the mast thwart. Alternatively it can bolt to the gunwales behind the mast. Does your new deck come near the mast thwart. I will be making your new outrigger beam tomorrow, so i will need to know whether to put a hole in it. Also does your kicker attachment on the mast have enough clearance to allow the outrigger beam to sit on the mast thwart?

  9. #69
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    The deck is well clear of the thwart: I made it so it can drop in front of the mast thwart and then be pushed forward an inch or so to engage on the under side of the gunnels,I'm sure it is short enough to be able to do this even with the outriggers in place. the kicker eye is approx. 85mm above the thwart. there are also bolt holes in the mast thwart about 30mm from the inner gunnel edge on each side

  10. #70
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    I'm going to take some tools (saws, drill, workmate etc) to Resipole. I'm hoping I can fit my new component there and use it over the weekend so some fine tuning of your deck, outriggers etc maybe possible Unk.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    I'm going to take some tools (saws, drill, workmate etc) to Resipole. I'm hoping I can fit my new component there and use it over the weekend so some fine tuning of your deck, outriggers etc maybe possible Unk.

    Nice one Jurrasic, I need to put all my fittings back on my canoe so I'll be taking my box of bits up there too.

  12. #72
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    I've made a spraydeck for the bow section of my canoe


  13. #73
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    Luv it Keith, nice job.

  14. #74
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    Default To jam or not to jam?

    Last year when we started sailing the 35ft Expedition Rigs there was some debate about cleating off the mainsheet while sailing (in that instance to allow the use of two hands on the paddle while paddle sailing or steering with the paddle). At the time the prospect of locking off the mainsheet was one that I found scary, I couldn't imagine a time when I'd be comfortable doing such a thing and was sure it'd inevitably lead to a capsize. It's funny how time and experience changes your opinion on things however and after fitting a ratcheting block I started to become more comfortable having some resistance in the sheet, then I found myself often tying a slip knot in the sheet before the block to jam it (in light winds while paddle sailing and latterly in stronger winds while videoing or bailing water out of the canoe).
    As the arrival of my new canoe becomes more imminent I've started wondering whether to incorporate a mainsheet jammer into my set up for the new boat. I know Keith (Windorpaddle) uses one and couldn't help noticing that GavinM had one in his new canoe as well.
    This arrived through the mail yesterday.

    I'd been watching it for ages on Fleabay (well actually the seller had nine in stock originally and the one I finally bought was the last one left) and it was at a really great price so I couldn't resist it. I'll have to make a removable thwart to fit into the seat rails in the new canoe to mount the jammer on (so that I can take it out when sailing two up). I know that DaveS likes to have the sheet coming straight from the boom to his hand and I'm going to try that as well initially (mounting my existing auto ratchet block on the boom) but it'll be nice to be able to use this as well and try both systems back to back to see which I prefer. If I don't get on with the jammer I can always sell it on.

  15. #75
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    Nice bit of kit, Chris! I tend to use mine in easier conditions, especially by myself. With her on board and leaning back on the centre thwart where the jammer is, it's easier to use the sheet straight from the boom, where I have a switchable ratchet block fitted. When it's a bit windy I prefer to use the sheet from the boom as well. The jammer I ended up with has the cleat orientated so you have to pull down to release it - not what I'm used to in other boats and not as easy in stronger breezes - hence my using the sheet from the boom when it gets exciting!

  16. #76
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    Interesting Keith. I hummed and hahed for ages before buying it but it was too cheap to pass up (it came with an auto ratchet block which on it's own would cost more at full price than I paid for the whole thing). I currently use a Ronstan switchable auto ratchet block that I really like so I'll stick that on the boom so that I can just turn the ratchet off if I use the jammer.

  17. #77
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    The mainsheet jammer will be really useful. It frees up a hand whilst sailing and i would use it when taking pictures on the move, bailing on the move, paddle sailing etc, I do prefer to have the sheet to hand though when sailing in stronger wind, sitting out on the gunwale. It allows you to quickly ease the sheet in gusts. I also like the support that the sheet coming from the boom gives when i am leaning out as my abdominable muscles are not what they used to be, and quickly moving back into the canoe in a lull is muchh easier if i can pull on the sheet. I suppose i could do sit ups to build up my 1pack (my 6pack disappeared years ago0 but i would still prefer the instant control that comes from holding the sheet.

  18. #78
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    Good well it sounds like I've not made a blunder buying it then (it cost me 48 for the whole thing including the auto ratchet block which on it's own retails at 52). Hopefully I can use it when conditions are right and at other times just remove it and switch on the ratchet on my other block which can stay on the boom (or even just take the sheet out of the fairlead for the cleat?) I want to try sailing with the sheet coming straight from the boom to my hand as well (as you both prefer in strong winds Dave and Keith). Up to now I've only had 35sq ft to balance and it's rare that I've had to really hang out (I have a lot of mass to help me anyway ). I really noticed the difference when I sailed Wayne's boat at Coniston last Autumn, I had to hang out far more aggressively even though it was reefed (presumably there was still more than 35sq ft up) which is one reason I was caught out in my MOB moment!

  19. #79
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    How wold it work if you aranged the cleat on the boom so you can lock it of , and at the tug of the sheet have it free in your hand ?

  20. #80
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    An open cam cleat on the boom in front of the sheet pulley should work really well. It would be easy to lock the sheet off, and very easy to release, and back in your hand. I might have a go at this. At the moment i tie a slip knot in the sheet which locates against the pulley. It is a pain to adjust it if you want to ease the sheet a little, and sometimes when you pull on it, it doesn't release easily.
    And an open cleat will not cost that much (sorry Jurassic), or need a thwart to put it on.

  21. #81
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    It's funny you should mention that Mick as I'd wondered about doing exactly what you suggest and might give it a try if I find myself not using the jammer contraption very often (it'll also depend on whether I'm a convert to having the sheet coming straight from the boom to my hand as up to now my preference has been to use a stand up block on a thwart in front of me).
    Dave, I'm really not bothered about the cost of the jammer, I'm pretty confident I could sell it on if needs be or I could take the cleat and block off it (both are quite nice in their own right) and re use them separately.

  22. #82
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    Well I got to try the mainsheet jammer contraption out at the weekend sailing on Ullswater at the OCSG meet in conditions varying from very light to pretty lively. Initially I was very nervous and wasn't at all happy using it without my outriggers on (I had a few scary moments when the sheet was cleated off and I was hit with a gust or wind shift). I think familiarity would help a lot with this but on this occasion I put the outriggers on and found it to be quite useful. In light winds on Saturday I used it while paddle sailing without outriggers and it was fine but it is very easy to inadvertently cleat off the mainsheet while sheeting in. On Sunday we sailed in fairly boisterous conditions and I again used my outriggers. I sailed most of the day with the sheet cleated off and just started to luff a bit to depower the sail during the gusts (instead of easing the sheet as I'd normally do). Sailing like this left one hand available for bailing (which I needed to do frequently) and taking pictures and video which was great. Running back downwind I re-routed the sheet outside the cleat as I wasn't happy running in strong gusts with the possibility of accidentally cleating the sheet.
    So what's the verdict? Well I certainly wouldn't pay full price for one of these things but for what I paid I'm fairly pleased with it. I don't think I'll use it all the time but it'll be a nice option to have when the conditions are right.

  23. #83
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    I've never had a problem with this swivel cleat.



    Great bit of kit. Easy to lock off and undo as long as you remember to pull the sheet downwards into the cleat jaws when you want to lock it off and lift it up out of the jaws when you want to release it. I have used this sort of cleat for years on other boats, so to me it is instinctive and I don't think about it anymore.

    Not sure how yours works Chris, but I love mine.

  24. #84
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    I'm currently in the process of converting my rudder system from a push pull set up to a more normal left right set up (there's probably a name for it)

    Tried it out last week and after making some slight modifications, attacking bits with a saw. Made a big difference and now I know which set up I prefer

    Now to turn the flimsy prototype into something a little stronger.
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    I'm currently in the process of converting my rudder system from a push pull set up to a more normal left right set up (there's probably a name for it)

    Tried it out last week and after making some slight modifications, attacking bits with a saw. Made a big difference and now I know which set up I prefer

    Now to turn the flimsy prototype into something a little stronger.
    It's called the traditional tiller setup!

    I had an idea once that was fairly simple. It would extend the range of a conventional tiller without extending the length and sweep of the tiller.

    It required two pivot bearings, two hinges and a few meters of timber to hold it all together. See below:





    In the end I went for a slightly longer tiller (About 2 or 3-feet longer) which works fine, but the sweep is quite large. In order to deflect the rudder by a small amount, I need to move the tiller a fair bit and it really looks like I'm busy maintaining the course, but it is no bother because the tiller is incredibly light.

    Good luck with your tinkering.
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 4th-September-2012 at 12:14 AM.

  26. #86
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    For that to work, the pivot points would have to move closer together as you put the tiller over. I have seen dummy tillers set up with a push / pull conection to the rudder. Keith had one that worked well. I am not good at drawing programs so i cannot show you, but i am sure Keith will have a photo.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    For that to work, the pivot points would have to move closer together as you put the tiller over. I have seen dummy tillers set up with a push / pull conection to the rudder. Keith had one that worked well. I am not good at drawing programs so i cannot show you, but i am sure Keith will have a photo.
    Or you could add a telescoping section in between each fixed pivot (two required in that set-up). Maybe use close-fitting tubes. Of course, you could use lines and wheel! -or just lines to a remote tiller - as I use in my racing kayak.

    Graham (very new to canoe sailing but really enjoying it)

  28. #88
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    Yes I used a sort of remote tiller system with a dummy tiller fastened to the stern seat. I started with a pair of lines but found it a bit vague so changed to a single wooden rod between the side arm of the dummy tiller to the side arm (aka bellcrank) of the rudder stock. It worked well but was rather fussy to attach each time I set up the boat for sailing.
    [I'm trying to upload some photos of that system but photobucket is having a glitch at the moment...] Ok - hope this works as they are not showing up on the PB site






    I took the opportunity when changing canoes to bite the bullet and convert my skills to a simple push-pull tiller. Ok so it's a different action but it only took a few minutes to get the feel for it and a few hours to really feel intuitive in even challenging conditions - where I thought I would feel very vulnerable, having spent decades sailing boats with a "conventional style" tiller arrangement.
    Last edited by windorpaddle; 4th-September-2012 at 06:32 PM. Reason: add pics

  29. #89
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    Good idea Keith. Simple idea that looks as though it would have been quite effective.

    All it needed was an extra thwart to mount the tiller and bobs your uncle. I think if I were to ever modify my canoe again, I would probably opt for this setup. Then if it didn't work that well, you are only a small step from a push/ pull setup.

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Good idea Keith. Simple idea that looks as though it would have been quite effective.

    Then if it didn't work that well, you are only a small step from a push/ pull setup.
    Simple concept - yes. But a bit fussy to organise well. Not my idea really - there's nothing new under the sun, as they say! Sometimes called a Norwegian or Scandinavian tiller, useful to work round a motor or mizzen mast where a longer conventional tiller would not do it. See this page, especially part way down: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/...rob/index7.htm
    The author seems very reluctant to relearn how to steer a boat with a push pull tiller - just like you are, Chris! And I was for many, many years!! But it really isn't that hard - many others have done it and "converted" their skills. By the way, the bellcrank I used on the remote setup would not be long enough to adapt to a push-pull as it it needs to be about a foot long to get the appropriate leverage, especially off the wind in a nice breeze.

  31. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    Simple concept - yes. But a bit fussy to organise well. Not my idea really - there's nothing new under the sun, as they say! Sometimes called a Norwegian or Scandinavian tiller, useful to work round a motor or mizzen mast where a longer conventional tiller would not do it. See this page, especially part way down: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/...rob/index7.htm
    The author seems very reluctant to relearn how to steer a boat with a push pull tiller - just like you are, Chris! And I was for many, many years!! But it really isn't that hard - many others have done it and "converted" their skills. By the way, the bellcrank I used on the remote setup would not be long enough to adapt to a push-pull as it it needs to be about a foot long to get the appropriate leverage, especially off the wind in a nice breeze.
    I love it Keith. This is the solution I was looking for last year.



    I am sure I could pick up the push/ pull system and would only capsize a couple of times before it became instinctive, but I feel that the push/ pull system is a work around and not the perfect solution.

    For example, 99.9% of all motorcycles have an indicator switch on the left hand handlebar and a motorcyclist will use his left thumb to control the indicators for turning in both directions. Any motorcyclist will use this switch instictively, so imagine my surprise when I was given a BMW R1150R as a courtesy bike while my BMW scooter was in for a service and I discovered that instead of one switch that controlled left and right indicators, they had fitted a two switches on each handlebar. (One for turning left and one for turning right!) Nightmare! It is so instinctive to an experienced motorcyclist to use your left hand to apply the indicators, several times I turned right without indicating! People do get the hang of it, but why fix what is not broke?

    This is the same with canoe tillers as far as I can see. If it is reletively easy to make a bellcrank tiller setup that gives a sailor the same controls as in a conventional sailing boat, then why not? No new skills to learn, easier to adapt to so less initial stress and less risk of getting it wrong. Happier sailors, more people involved in the sport.

    The only downside I can see is more weight and an extra thwart.

    I feel that it could use the SD rudder assembly with the foot long side arm and just needs the dummy tiller, thwart and an adjustable rod, so few new parts to produce.

  32. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    I am sure I could pick up the push/ pull system and would only capsize a couple of times before it became instinctive, but I feel that the push/ pull system is a work around and not the perfect solution.

    People do get the hang of it, but why fix what is not broken?

    This is the same with canoe tillers as far as I can see. If it is relatively easy to make a bellcrank tiller setup that gives a sailor the same controls as in a conventional sailing boat, then why not? No new skills to learn, easier to adapt to so less initial stress and less risk of getting it wrong. Happier sailors, more people involved in the sport.

    The only downside I can see is more weight and an extra thwart.

    I feel that it could use the SD rudder assembly with the foot long side arm and just needs the dummy tiller, thwart and an adjustable rod, so few new parts to produce.
    Ok - I give up, each to their own!...
    "Keep it Simple " is another adage I quite like, too! More weight and an extra thwart seem like avoidable downsides to me. And I'm not convinced by your assumption about "happier sailors, more involved"
    I think we will have to agree to differ!

  33. #93
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    Chris - you've got your dinghy sailor's hat on again. Rudders are controlled in many ways in many craft. I believe aircraft and gliders this is conventionally done through pedals. On large yachts, a wheel (or even one of two separate wheels) may be used. In a kayak, a rudder may be foot operated, but not by pedals as a footbrace is needed for connectivity.

    Push pull is "conventional" for canoe sailing: and that's not just a British / Solway Dory verdict - it's even used by Howard Rice on Sylph...




    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice
    I like two tillers for a number of reasons. The #1 reason is I sail Sylph long distances and like to have as many sitting steering positions as possible. When I am sailing upwind in heavy air I sometimes use the leeward tiller and then switch to the weather tiller to spell my hands. I rarely cleat the main or jib sheets, my hands can get tired and so I like the option of switching tillers and sheets from hand to hand.

    My tillers are a bit different than other canoe set ups I have seen. I have two BMW motorcycle cables (sheathed) that run through holes in the back of the coaming back to the rudder yoke. Inside the cockpit these cables run forward to a pedal steering set up. I often steer by feet alone and often using leverage against one pedal while steering with a tiller. Steering by foot is where it is at in a canoe. This frees my hands up for many tasks ranging from meal preparation while sailing, to navigating, repair, rigging, catnapping, etc.
    Source: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...88#post2982288

    Ps. All up, with multiple rigging options and the rest, that canoe still weighs ~70lbs

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    Keith & Greg, I was responding to Joe's post:

    I'm currently in the process of converting my rudder system from a push pull set up to a more normal left right set up (there's probably a name for it)

    Tried it out last week and after making some slight modifications, attacking bits with a saw. Made a big difference and now I know which set up I prefer
    It seems that he has tried the push/ pull system and is converting it to a traditional setup. I must conclude from this that he is not happy with the push/ pull system.

    While I accept that there are many different ways of steering a vehicle Greg (Steering wheel, rudder pedals etc.) they are instinctive. I.e. you turn the wheel to the right, it goes right, you turn it to the left and it goes left. Same with rudder pedals.

    The push/ pull setup isn't instictive. You pull it to turn left and push it to go right!

    What is wrong with looking into ways that can offer traditional tiller controls to a canoe sailor. At the moment there is no real choice.

    Keith, Joe and I would probably be happier with the traditional setup, so that would be two more happier canoe sailors. What's to disagree with?

  35. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    I love it Keith. This is the solution I was looking for last year. I am sure I could pick up the push/ pull system and would only capsize a couple of times before it became instinctive, but I feel that the push/ pull system is a work around and not the perfect solution.

    For example, 99.9% of all motorcycles have an indicator switch on the left hand handlebar and a motorcyclist will use his left thumb to control the indicators for turning in both directions. Any motorcyclist will use this switch instictively, so imagine my surprise when I was given a BMW R1150R as a courtesy bike while my BMW scooter was in for a service and I discovered that instead of one switch that controlled left and right indicators, they had fitted a two switches on each handlebar. (One for turning left and one for turning right!) Nightmare! It is so instinctive to an experienced motorcyclist to use your left hand to apply the indicators, several times I turned right without indicating! People do get the hang of it, but why fix what is not broke?

    This is the same with canoe tillers as far as I can see. If it is reletively easy to make a bellcrank tiller setup that gives a sailor the same controls as in a conventional sailing boat, then why not? No new skills to learn, easier to adapt to so less initial stress and less risk of getting it wrong. Happier sailors, more people involved in the sport.

    The only downside I can see is more weight and an extra thwart.

    I feel that it could use the SD rudder assembly with the foot long side arm and just needs the dummy tiller, thwart and an adjustable rod, so few new parts to produce.
    Push/pull tillers for sailing canoes are not a work around and, as far as I know, are chosen by all canoe sailors who have extensive expedition experience. I'm all for innovation and experimentation but could you not be trying to fix what's not broken?

    At a very recent Dinghy Cruising Association meet a very experienced dinghy sailor took the helm of my sailing canoe and said he was surprised to find to find the tiller arrangement became instinctive in less than a couple of minutes. In fact, he's now seriously thinking of trying a push pull tiller on his cruising dinghy (a Cruz) which has a mizzen and consequently, a steering / helming position some distance from the stern.

    Best to try before you write off push pull?
    Last edited by GavinM; 5th-September-2012 at 01:43 PM.

  36. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post

    I am sure I could pick up the push/ pull system and would only capsize a couple of times before it became instinctive
    You wouldn't capsize, you'd just turn the wrong way for a fraction of a second (you realise immediately and instinctively correct). After about twenty minutes you wouldn't even have to think about it anymore (well I didn't anyway). My first attempt with a push pull set up was at Ullswater sailing amongst the sizeable racing fleet at Ullswater Yacht Club. I was very nervous for the first few minutes but I didn't crash into anyone or spoil anyone's race. Learning it on a quiet stretch of water would be child's play.

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    "The push/ pull setup isn't instictive. You pull it to turn left and push it to go right!

    What is wrong with looking into ways that can offer traditional tiller controls to a canoe sailor. At the moment there is no real choice".

    Nothing at all wrong with trying alternatives, bearing in mind they've already been tried.

    On the basis that push pull is not instinctive then neither is a conventional tiller ..... push it left to turn right and push it right to turn left! Beginners often briefly struggle with this, but fortunately our brains are very good at 'internalising' the movements necessary to get the required result and we quickly learn to use controls for boats, cars, boats, planes, computers in a variety of ways with having to think about it. I think that was what was meant by 'instinctive'."
    Last edited by GavinM; 5th-September-2012 at 01:03 PM.

  38. #98
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    Fair point, I will at least try the push/ pull system before I consider any further changes to my canoe. It's like someone telling you to walk on hot coals and saying "Don't worry, you will not burn your feet". Something tells you that they must be wrong.

    It is interesting that Joe is looking to convert his canoe back to a traditional setup though. He will have tried the push/ pull system and clearly hasn't got along with it.

  39. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Fair point, I will at least try the push/ pull system before I consider any further changes to my canoe. It's like someone telling you to walk on hot coals and saying "Don't worry, you will not burn your feet". Something tells you that they must be wrong.

    It is interesting that Joe is looking to convert his canoe back to a traditional setup though. He will have tried the push/ pull system and clearly hasn't got along with it.
    You're welcome to try mine. I'm hosting the next (Solent) OCSG meet and hope to make it to the last meet this year at Coniston.

    Back on rudder controls ..... about two years ago I tried a dinghy designed for disabled sailors. It had a joystick - push right to go right and push left to go left - entirley 'logical' or so you'd think - but the opposite way round to a conventional tiller. I found it suprisingly difficult for the first few minutes. Sometimes, what appears like it might be easy is more difficult than expected and sometimes the opposite is so ..... but then I've always struggled with left and right and when I was at primary school had to remember that my right hand was the one I write with. An even more confusing steering issue was when I had some steering quadrant repairs done to a yacht and the wires were reconnected the wrong way round - turn the top of the wheel to port and the boat went to starboard! I returned to the berth with difficulty and cancelled the trip until the steering was fixed.

  40. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by GavinM View Post
    On the basis that push pull is not instinctive then neither is a conventional tiller ..... push it left to turn right and push it right to turn left! Beginners often briefly struggle with this, but fortunately our brains are very good at 'internalising' the movements necessary to get the required result and we quickly learn to use controls for boats, cars, boats, planes, computers in a variety of ways with having to think about it. I think that was what was meant by 'instinctive'."
    Again, your right Gavin. Thinking back to my first sail in a Mirror when I was about 12-years old, I thought it weird, but you quickly learn.

    On that basis, I have solved the rudder instinctive issue and no one will ever struggle again! See below.



    LOL, now dare you to try sailing a canoe with this setup!

    I am nearly back to full health and have been contemplating going on one if not both of the remaining meets.

    I have a problem with the caravan gas heater and have been talking to the dealer today about them taking a look at it if I can't sort it myself. They are in Poole not far from the Solent and I could kill two birds with one stone. The Lakes are very pretty and I have never sailed there, so this is on my wish list sometime too.

  41. #101
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    And Viking replica ships I have seen on TV documentaries just have lateral side arm tillers, so they were quite happy pushing or pulling too... It's just what you get used to.

  42. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post


    I am nearly back to full health and have been contemplating going on one if not both of the remaining meets.

    I have a problem with the caravan gas heater and have been talking to the dealer today about them taking a look at it if I can't sort it myself. They are in Poole not far from the Solent and I could kill two birds with one stone. The Lakes are very pretty and I have never sailed there, so this is on my wish list sometime too.
    One thing to consider if you decide to do the "Last Chance" at Coniston is that the campsite on which the meet is based doesn't take caravans (even Eribas). It's not the end of the world though as there is a Caravan Club site adjacent (Park Coppice). It would just mean a ten minute walk to the water (you can access the lake and leave your canoe at the lake edge for the duration of the meet, Sue did this last year). I love Coniston and I can't wait to go back for another mudfest!

  43. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    One thing to consider if you decide to do the "Last Chance" at Coniston is that the campsite on which the meet is based doesn't take caravans (even Eribas). It's not the end of the world though as there is a Caravan Club site adjacent (Park Coppice). It would just mean a ten minute walk to the water (you can access the lake and leave your canoe at the lake edge for the duration of the meet, Sue did this last year). I love Coniston and I can't wait to go back for another mudfest!
    What do the guys with small camper vans do? It's not a problem taking the tent, but if I make the meet, I would want to go for a few more days and the extra luxury of the van would make it more pleasent.

  44. #104
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    Campervans and motorhomes are allowed on the Coniston Hall campsite - it's just caravans that aren't. Not really sure why - probably the local planning regs.

  45. #105
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    Camper vans are allowed but caravans are not i am afraid. The caravan site is not far away though and i would have said 5 minutes walking. You can trolley the canoe around though the site along a path or drive around with the canoe and pay a day visitor rate.
    Back to the push pull tiller. Joe probably had trouble with the push pull tiller because he was using a home built set up, which wasnt set up and working well. If the rudder centre of effort is well behind the rudder gudgeons on the canoe, the push pull feels very heavy. He probably also had a short tiller arm which again makes it feel heavy and unresponsive.
    The push pull has other advantages over a "normal dinghy tiller". You can reach the long push pull tiller from anywhere in the canoe, even when with a passenger. In fact Hilary, sitting in front of me, can easily steer and control the canoe whilst i do other things, such as paddling or having a break. If i move back in the canoe to make room for a passenger i can still operate the tiller without it fouling me, etc.
    As Chris says, why not try one first before righting it off. A dinghy, which is wider with a transom, allows you to sit to the side of a standard tiller near the rudder and it makes most sense. A long narrow boat, like a canoe, where you are sitting near the centre, probably 7 ft from the rudder, is easier to control with the pull /push.
    I will let you have a go with one when we next meet, at Beauly or Coniston.

  46. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Camper vans are allowed but caravans are not i am afraid. The caravan site is not far away though and i would have said 5 minutes walking. You can trolley the canoe around though the site along a path or drive around with the canoe and pay a day visitor rate.
    Back to the push pull tiller. Joe probably had trouble with the push pull tiller because he was using a home built set up, which wasnt set up and working well. If the rudder centre of effort is well behind the rudder gudgeons on the canoe, the push pull feels very heavy. He probably also had a short tiller arm which again makes it feel heavy and unresponsive.
    The push pull has other advantages over a "normal dinghy tiller". You can reach the long push pull tiller from anywhere in the canoe, even when with a passenger. In fact Hilary, sitting in front of me, can easily steer and control the canoe whilst i do other things, such as paddling or having a break. If i move back in the canoe to make room for a passenger i can still operate the tiller without it fouling me, etc.
    As Chris says, why not try one first before righting it off. A dinghy, which is wider with a transom, allows you to sit to the side of a standard tiller near the rudder and it makes most sense. A long narrow boat, like a canoe, where you are sitting near the centre, probably 7 ft from the rudder, is easier to control with the pull /push.
    I will let you have a go with one when we next meet, at Beauly or Coniston.
    Thanks Dave, I'll give it a try. Might bring it back half full of water in it though!

    Much will depend on the forecast whether I bring the caravan or not. If the weather is like now (Here in the South East) I'll just bring my bigger 2-man tent, but if it's a bit miserable, I'll bring the caravan and just leave it on a campsite somewhere. I can leave the canoe on the car roof and drive to where everyone else is for the sailing.

    Is there any difficulty bringing the van to Beauly or is it a similar arangement?

  47. #107
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    The next OCSG meet is on / by the Beaulieu River, or at Bucklers Hard to be more precise. - just in case anyone is struggling to find the location. See http://www.beaulieuriver.co.uk/ for more details of the river and Buckler's Hard. A minimum OCSG level 2 ability is required as this is a tidal location. If the weather is kind we might get out onto the Solent. I don't know about caravans but will check.

  48. #108
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    CONISTON : Park Copice (Caravan Club site, but open to all) has an agreement allowing you to drive from the site ,through the campsite, to the lake ... for launching purposes.The gate has a padlock (combination) to which you have the code. Cars then have to be returned to a car park just through the gate.
    You can then leave your canoe on the shore, with all the others.
    It's a big site, all hard standings, in woodland, with excellent facilities. You'll need to book for that weekend as its the start of half term.

  49. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Thanks Dave, I'll give it a try. Might bring it back half full of water in it though!

    Much will depend on the forecast whether I bring the caravan or not. If the weather is like now (Here in the South East) I'll just bring my bigger 2-man tent, but if it's a bit miserable, I'll bring the caravan and just leave it on a campsite somewhere. I can leave the canoe on the car roof and drive to where everyone else is for the sailing.

    Is there any difficulty bringing the van to Beauly or is it a similar arrangement?
    Caravans, tents and campervans are all OK at Bucklers Hard (on the Beaulieu River). The camping field is reserved for the OCSG for the 12th to 15th Oct.

  50. #110
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    Great, thanks for the update Gavin.

  51. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Back to the push pull tiller. Joe probably had trouble with the push pull tiller because he was using a home built set up, which wasnt set up and working well. If the rudder centre of effort is well behind the rudder gudgeons on the canoe, the push pull feels very heavy. He probably also had a short tiller arm which again makes it feel heavy and unresponsive.
    Yes it's Homemade

    No it isn't heavy.

    The reason I don't like the push pull set up is simply because I have no idea which way the rudder is facing simply by placing my hand on the tiller. I physically have to turn around and have a look. Not the best thing to do half way through a turn, when you are about to be knocked unconscious by the boom.

    And an added bonus (after leaving the tiller too long) it's now hands free. You just sit on the till and slide you backside from side to side to steer.

    This proved to be just to scary, so out came the saw for some final tweaking
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  52. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    The reason I don't like the push pull set up is simply because I have no idea which way the rudder is facing simply by placing my hand on the tiller. I physically have to turn around and have a look.
    I added a visual mark on the push pull arm and another one on a nearby thwart right in front of me, such that when the marks align, the rudder is straight. That way I always know the relative position of the rudder without needing to turn around and look at it.

  53. #113
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    If you put a gun to my head and asked me which way my canoe will turn if I either push or pull the rudder stick I couldn't tell you.
    So what?
    Within a split second of sailing my canoe even after months off the water I find I can point my canoe in the right direction by use of the rudder stick.
    The push/pull rudder is a wonderful tool, as is the human brain.
    Last edited by unk tantor; 7th-September-2012 at 05:30 PM.

  54. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by unk tantor View Post
    If you put a gun to my head and asked me which way my canoe will turn if I either push or pull the rudder stick I couldn't tell you.
    So what?
    Within a split second of sailing my canoe even after months off the water I find I can point my canoe in the right direction by use of the rudder stick.
    The push/pull rudder is a wonderful tool, as is the human brain.
    I can type without looking at the keyboard but don't ask me where any of the individual keys are in relation to one another as I don't have a clue, it's the same sort of thing.

  55. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    I've made a spraydeck for the bow section of my canoe

    Minor update - the hoops I made worked well but have turned out to be a bit vulnerable to kinking when abused (one got flattened by loading the outriggers onto it carelessly for the portage across Bute the other week).

    So now I have sourced some lengths of untapered sail batten, 30mm x 3.1mm - cost a fair bit more but much tougher.

  56. #116
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    Looks really good Kieth.

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    A quick update from me. First off, I've been having a few issues with the loop of cord which goes round the boom at the outhaul hook on my SD Bermudan being reluctant to slide along the boom in certain conditions (particularly when wet). My initial fix was to use a length of dyneema cord instead of the original. This being of a kernmantle construction and with the mantle being a more slippery material did help but didn't entirely fix the issue. Next was an idea inspired by the set up on Zollen's old boat which used a piece of uPVC waste pipe as a slider on the boom. Here's the prototype that I bodged up to try.


    Having the cord route this way means that when pressure is exerted on the loop by the sail it actually tries to open the plastic collar rather than close it. I had the opportunity to try it out last weekend and it does help a lot (although I'd hesitate to claim it as a total cure). Given how cheap and easy it is to do (and that it's entirely reversible if you don't like it), I'd say it's well worth a try.
    The other thing that I've done is to remove the fairlead from the top of my mainsheet jammer. This means that it's really quick and easy to release the main in an emergency and makes the jammer a lot friendlier to use.

  58. #118
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    Good morning,
    have you consderd yousing peral beads? thar an old method of freeying sail atachments to run up masts cant see why thay woldent work on an outhall as well ther simpaly beeds threded onto a cord to act as rolers on the spare in question a bit like ball berings I generaly set them up with one extra beed to give good clerance .

  59. #119
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    Hi Mick, Andy (Zollen) tried something similar using small rollers rather than beads but it didn't work too well. I can see how beads might be better though and I might give it a try. Thanks for the tip.

  60. #120
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    Ive seen bobbles used as Mick says on a Drascombe mast.

    They really work well.

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