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Thread: Learning to sail, canoe vs dinghy?

  1. #1
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    Default Learning to sail, canoe vs dinghy?

    I've just bought a 15' 8" Old Town Discovery. Its old and beat up but a sound boat and the previous owner has fitted a mast foot and thwart.

    I would really like to learn to sail. I'm an almost total novice, having done a few days crewing in my friends 18ft yacht, which I enjoyed a great deal. What I'm wondering is whether it would be worth trying to learn in my canoe, or would it be wiser to learn in a more 'traditional' small sailing craft such as a Topper/Laser/Mirror/etc?

    I understand the general principles of sailing, and have access to a large body of water where I can make all my mistakes without upsetting/endangering too many people (Stour Estuary). My funds are fairly limited, so a sailing course is going to be hard to afford, especially after shelling out on a sailing rig, and I have a couple of friends that are keen sailors who would be happy to give me a few pointers.

    So, learning to sail, canoe vs dinghy?

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    This is a tough one and can be argued either way. The benefit of getting some intensive coaching at the start of learning anything is great, but sailing a canoe is not quite like any dinghy due to seating arrangements, controls etc etc. Will you be using a paddle to steer?

    You already have a grasp of the principles, some support and a good place to practice so get out there and give it a go! Hopefully your sailing friends will stick to basic concepts rather than getting bogged down in the idiosyncrasies of any particular boat. Set yourself some targets, like a couple of landmarks to sail back and forth between. Then try and work upwind a bit, then back down again. A good basic dinghy sailing manual could be useful - much is just the same for canoes. The Solway Dory website has just added some more 'tips' pages.

    Obviously choose the right sort of day - some wind but not too much - a light to moderate, F2 or 3 would be best.

    Pity you are so far from any of the meets we have...

    Good luck and report back - with pics and video if you can!

  3. #3

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    fredster, I am also a RYA sailing instructor.
    It's all very well knowing the principles of sailing but just like canoeing and kayaking you can't beat practical experience.
    I would recommend a weekend sailing course to RYA Level 1 so you have practical experience of sailing,including tacking and gybing;use of centre board and how to prevent and maybe recover from a capsize.
    A Mirror is a easy dinghy to learn in,a Topper is bit too sensitive for beginners and a capsize could put you off for life!

    You say you have sailing friends,that's good.
    Invite yourself to going sailing with them in return for a canoe trip with you.
    Practice sailing in a straight line,tacking (turning into the wind) and gybing (turning with the wind behind you).
    Understand the need for a centre board and how to use it.
    Dinghies have built in buoyancy so ensure you have inflated airbags attached to your canoe.
    I'm happy to answer anymore questions you may have.
    Be lucky!

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    If you're careful and sensible you'd be fine learning in your canoe but I'd strongly recommend having a strategy for recovering from a capsize (this would be good practice anyway even if you just intend paddling the canoe). Practice that strategy to make sure it works before doing anything too ambitious. If you've done any whitewater paddling you'll probably have capsized before anyway but recovering in the middle of a larger body of water than a river presents some additional problems. A course teaching you to sail in a dinghy would be useful but won't teach you anything about the specifics of canoe sailing. If you already understand the basics I'd say just go for it in a safe sheltered spot with a steady, light wind (as Windorpaddle says) preferably with someone else present to keep an eye on you and make sure you're okay. Canoes aren't as tippy when sailed as you'd imagine when looking at them and with a decent low aspect canoe specific rig they don't heel nearly as much as you'd expect either. Have fun!

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    Just hijacking the thread a little.

    Can you turn a canoe that tracks well (read as does not steer) into a sailer?
    SF Peterborough 14'
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    Just hijacking the thread a little.

    Can you turn a canoe that tracks well (read as does not steer) into a sailer?
    I don't see why not (in fact it may well be an advantage). I think Dave S would be the man to ask, his knowledge and experience of sailing canoes is vast. My canoe's not got a huge amount of rocker and the likes of Windorpaddle and Greg S both sail big canoes (around 18') without a problem.

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    Lots of fairly straight-running canoes can make good sailing canoes. The keen canoe-sailing racers in the US often use fast touring hulls with little rocker but add a longer than standard centre thwart to stretch the beam out and induce a bit more rocker. I once had a very straight running clinker-ply canoe that was so hard to tack that Dave S (who had designed and made it before doing enough research!) helped me remove a good chunk of the stern under the waterline. This made the boat more manageable but tacking still had to be done carefully and smoothly - as it should be in any boat really. Canoes are never going to spin on a sixpence like many dinghies do but they are still great to sail and a lot more portable!

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    Fredster,

    Sailing a "standard" canoe is not the same as sailing a dinghy, but it is possible to make a canoe more dinghy like with modifications but they all cost money. Specialist sailing canoes such as the Solway Dory's sail very like a dinghy, but there is a big cost involved. If you really want to learn to sail I would say that you need to do it in a dinghy and then transfer those skills to a canoe. However, if you want to learn to sail your canoe, then get out and play and try and meet up with like minded individuals.

    Your best bet might be to get in contact with Greg (GregandGinaS). He isn't far from you and knows a thing or two about sailing canoes and although I haven't met him he strikes me as being the sort of chap that would be more than happy to share his knowledge. There also seems to be a reasonably strong canoe sailing community on the broads that you should be able to link up to.

    Try a seach for Gregs postings and you should get a feel for who is about in your area sailing canoes. This thread should get you started http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...9-31-July-2011

    Tyro
    "Oh, Eeyore, you are wet!" said Piglet, feeling him.Eeyore shook himself, and asked somebody to explain to Piglet what happened when you had been inside a river for quite a long time.

  9. #9

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    From an ex RYA Sailing instructor, I agree with what's been said above! Go and do an RYA sailing course!

    You'll learn loads. And the end result will be more effient canoe sailing

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    The comments about Greg are very relevant - give him a shout but he might be on hols at the moment.
    It's a pity you've missed the canoe sailing event he organised at Barton Broad the other week.

    Oh and as we seem to have strayed into credentials - I'm a RYA Senior Instructor, ex Principal of a sailing school and a BCU L5 Coach...

    If cash is limited (isn't it always for most of us?!) then I reckon spend the money on decent kit and get instruction for free from mates or OCSG members - sailing is sailing but most canoes are set up a bit differently from dinghies and you'll need to un/relearn some stuff if you do a dinghy course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    Oh and as we seem to have strayed into credentials
    Sorry, I didn't realise that referring to Greg as a "Chap" in my middle aged public school way would be considered as conferring credentials.

    Tyro
    "Oh, Eeyore, you are wet!" said Piglet, feeling him.Eeyore shook himself, and asked somebody to explain to Piglet what happened when you had been inside a river for quite a long time.

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    I think that Windorpaddle's advice is very good. As a qualified sailing instructor AND highly experienced, active canoe sailor he can see the situation from both sides. I learned to sail in dinghys and the principals are the same as sailing a canoe but there are some significant differences in the mechanics of sailing a canoe and even if you do a dinghy course there'll still be a learning curve when you switch into your canoe. Be cautious, be careful, pick your times and places to sail and seek advice from sailing friends and fellow canoe sailors and you'll do fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyro View Post
    Sorry, I didn't realise that referring to Greg as a "Chap" in my middle aged public school way would be considered as conferring credentials.

    Tyro

    Well my credentials would qualify me to offer advice on how to snowboard or how to train working dogs so you'd probably be well advised to ignore everything I say relating to canoes or sailing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    The comments about Greg are very relevant - give him a shout but he might be on hols at the moment.
    Thanks for that, Keith: we returned from hols late last night... and whilst I've only a few days to turn things around before heading up north for the rest of August, I'm sure we could sort something out to get out on the Stour before too long...

    I'm not an RYA level-anything dinghy instructor, and for that matter, have no status whatsoever within the BCU... but I am local

  15. #15

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    I am a better sailor than a paddler and I would recommend learning in a dinghy then transfering the skills to the canoe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    I am a better sailor than a paddler and I would recommend learning in a dinghy then transfering the skills to the canoe
    I concur, though I would also say that while the two share many similar attributes (They are both boats using sails and the wind) they are also very different in many ways. Like the difference between a fibreglass glider and a hand glider. The way the vehicles behave and are controlled are very different in many ways. You can learn to operate one without having to know how to operate the other.

    Initially I found the conversion to be quite difficult and some years ago, I passed my RYA levels 1,2 & 3, but now I understand the differences, my confidence has grown tremendously and having experienced canoe sailors around to ask for advice has been extremely valuable to me.
    One example would be paddle steering. Not something you learn on any RYA coarse. Another is capsize drills using a bucket as a counterweight! Again something I feel sure my instructor never mentioned. Powering a canoe through a tack to avoid stalling is not something considered in the RYA schedule either, though roll tacking and roll jibing was covered on the harder courses!

    Many skills are transferable though, like pre-sailing equipment checks, rigging, launching and sailing in various directions, trimming the boat, first aid & other safety considerations, perhaps sailing in coastal waters & navigation skills etc. If you can afford an RYA training course, I would do one, but if you can't or don't have the time & opportunity, find an experienced canoe sailor in your area and see if you can go out together.

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    For an intermediate or advanced paddler, adding a sail to a canoe is no big deal. Within the UK coaching system, "sailing" (in some way shape or form, and not necessarily well) is regarded as part of the open canoe skill-set, along with such things as poling, snubbing, lining and tracking.

    Because the canoe is so light and easily driven, decent upwind rigs are simple and lightweight. Fitting a small expedition rig to a tandem for basic light-winds sailing involves nothing more than dropping a mast in and connecting the mainsheet: raise the sail and you're off... and drop it just as easily to paddle back as and when you've had enough.

    As the forces you're trying to harness are so small, you can get pretty much everything wrong in a force 2-3 without really having to worry: you might not get far if you get everything wrong, but equally, the rig hasn't the power to cause major problems - and having that paddle to hand means getting everything wrong is generally of limiited consequence!

    Deep water rescue and recovery with a rig attached shouldn't be necessary, especially when starting out in light winds: we don't generally capsize, and whilst we do tend to travel faster under sail than when paddling, and to proceed further from the shore... the deep-water self rescue techniques are no different.

    None of that is an argument against learning to sail well, or against taking RYA courses in a dinghy: it's just a recognition that having a paddling background might reasonably change your perspective.

    I'd suggest an OCSG meet is the best place to learn to sail a canoe!

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    Fredster, as and RYA Something or other in dinghy sailing, I'd say for learning to sail a canoe, if as you say you understand the basics of the forces and controls acting on the sail and boat (5 essentials), use the money an RYA course would cost and get a book, go to an OCSG meeting and just do it!

    Chris


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    I'm late to this party and still not back in the UK from my summer work, but keen to encourage an active east anglian/east of england canoe sailing contingent. Purely selfishly, as more meets mean more that may occur at times I can make. (Sorry I was out of the country for August's Barton Broad meet.) I'm in Cambridge from September, Fredster; you met me when we paddled the Chelmer 18 months or so ago; and as a still reasonably novice SD-Expedition-sail-on-Apache-canoe owner/canoe sailor with paddling background--I'd describe myself perhaps somewhat similar to yourself, as thinking I understand the basic principles but lack much experience--I'd be happy to do some canoe sailing in company somewhere like the Stour estuary or other east of England locations.

    Hope everyone has had a good summer--good to catch up on a little SoTP now I've an internet connection again.
    Ian

    PS re. the original question, what I've done is spent the money on an SD expedition sail, fitted it to the Apache, and gone and joined others to do some sailing. And also done a bit by myself, but with less success as my local rivers don't seem to lend themselves to sailing as well as a larger body of water does. It has been fun though. I'm sure an RYA course would be good; simply can't find the time at present ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Fredster, as an RYA Something or other in dinghy sailing, I'd say for learning to sail a canoe, if as you say you understand the basics of the forces and controls acting on the sail and boat (5 essentials), use the money an RYA course would cost and get a book, go to an OCSG meeting and just do it!

    Chris doth hide his light under his modest proverbial bushel - the "Something or other" he refers to is Coach/Assessor, which is a pretty high level role in the RYA Dinghy Scheme - so he knows what he's talking about. He and I had a quick chat about sailing (and) canoes when I was at Loch Ken earlier this year so that may or may not have helped!

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    Thanks for everyone's input on this thread, its much appreciated. RYU level one comes in at circa 150 for a weekend course so not cheap but no-doubt a fair price. I think for now I'm going to look into buying a rig and get set up and see how much I can work out from a decent book on the basics of sailing.

    As luck would have it my GF's mum has somehow ended up with some canoe-mountable lee boards and a rudder in her shed (she's also 'ended up' with a pre-war wooden canoe from Peterboro, Ontario) so I'm getting there. Been looking on the Solway Dory website and while one of their expedition rigs will stretch (read: exhaust) my budget they are clearly well regarded on here so will no doubt go that route.

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    If an RYA course is out of budget you could look for a local sailing club which runs TrySail courses. Most cost about 10 per session. There are usually a couple of qualified instructors and a load of club member volunteers. The whole purpose of TrySail is to get people into sailing so the cost is kept as low as possible.

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    Just had a little thought. Is the mast on a proper rig the same diameter as the poling poles?
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Default sailing canoe

    Hi Fredster and Joe,as we're all going to be at the kent meet i'll bring my sailng rig along(home built) for a play,

    i used a Mirror mainsail the canoe is an old town guide and it sails well,we can talk more at the meet

    regards Ted

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    I was out on the Stour yesterday, out on the marshes at cattawade.

    Doing a bit of downwind sailing, I know easy. Then it came to a section that was going accross the wind, so I gave it a go. And I managed to sail accross the wind, even with my terrible set up

    Used a paddle as the leaboard (on the upwind side), by holding the paddle near the blade and jamming the handle into my shoulder. Seemed to work really quite well, got a bit painful tho.

    The part I was most impressed with was my sail set up. I wasn't using the square sail with the poling poles........






    I was using the trusty brolly
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

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    Hi I am late to the party as usual Those guys are right if you have never sailed yourself get an RYA level 1 or try the local sailing club is right as most clubs are only too happy to get more people sailing. As to what boat to buy? its a no brainer, get a Mirror dinghy. It is small, stable, cartoppable, and will fit 2 adults so an experianced person can go out with the tyro and instruction is then so much easier and safer. The alternatives are tippy hi performance racers that you will get fed up uprighting instead of learning to sail. Oh and the Mirror will be cheap. There are thousands of them built many of them DIY and you should find hundreds on the web for a hundred quid up to thousands for a new full racing spec. When you have finished with the dinghy just throw it back on the interweb for the next guy and get your money back. This will also save you butchering a good canoe if you find sailing is not for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    Just had a little thought. Is the mast on a proper rig the same diameter as the poling poles?
    No. A small expedition rig mast COULD be that diameter... But the argument against that is lack of versatility: if you want to put any OTHER rig on, you're scuppered.The advertised Solway Dory rigs all work with a common diameter mast: you can just swap in anything up to a 44 square foot bermudan rig. Diameters do go up for rigs of 5 sq. m. or upwards, but those tend to be used only on specialised sailing canoes.

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    This will also save you butchering a good canoe if you find sailing is not for you.
    You don't have to "butcher" a canoe to add sailing to its capabilities. The fittings can be made so that they are removeable. And if we read the original post the canoe in question is already fitted with a mast thwart.

  29. #29
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    Default Canoe vs Dinghy

    Since someone has mentioned Barton Turf I thought I could legitimately stick my paddle in.

    The advantage of learning at an RYA recognised school is that (a) the instructors have been trained to teach sailing and (b) you get a certificate at the end (assuming you pass ). That certificate is useful if you ever want to hire a dinghy, or move onto higher qualifications.

    The disadvantage of learning in a canoe is that they are tippy compared to dinghies. So when you make a mistake they can be a lot less forgiving than dinghies. In fact I don't know of any RYA school other than ourselves who would be prepared to teach you in a canoe, and we would do it only if you hold BCU 3* or equivalent and have enough experience so you are not fazed when the boat leans over sharply e.g. when you push the rudder instead of pulling! You may want to fit "training wheels" (outrigger floats) until you're happy sailing without them. Make sure, though, you know how to right the boat in deep water with them.

    Learning in a Topper is fine, especially if you want to transition to canoes. Not many schools have Mirrors (they don't bounce when sailed into jetties etc Most have Toppers or Picos or Topaz or something equivalent, any of which is fine.

    If you're going to teach yourself, or learn from a friend, then get a good book first e.g the RYA manual "Start Sailing". (Make sure you get the latest edition - the one on Amazon looks like an old one). There are others. Second, make sure you practice somewhere safe - an inland reservoir might be best (Alton Water?) certainly NOT the Stour unless you're well above the port

    Have fun
    Simon

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    Right, progress continues. Am in the process of buying this sail...

    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...g-rig-for-sale

    ...which I realise at 44 square ft is big for a beginner, but I'm assuming/hoping when reefed in should be manageable if wind gets too strong for this newbie to sailing. I'll only be going out in very light winds to begin with, and hope to work my way up the beaufort scale as my competency increases.

    So I have lee boards and thwart, mast foot and thwart, and a sail and mast pending. Will start work on my rudder soon and will be practising deep water re-entry with my paddle float in the meantime. Obviously not going to start on the sailing until I'm happy I can get back in ok after a capsize.

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    I do admire your pluck.

    I like to think that I'm a fairly competent sailor and windsurfer. 44 sq ft is approx 4 sq m. As the advert said, it is a powerful sail. Being fully battened it will retain that power. It should be a very exciting rig to sail on a canoe in anything over a light breeze.

    I suggest that you
    a) get some advice on how to fit good outriggers, lee boards and a good rudder system (you will need them); and
    b) practice a capsize and recovery in shallow water with others there to help you before you venture out into deep water on your own.

    Good luck.

    Geoff

    P.S. This video should give you some ideas:
    Last edited by poolebay; 5th-September-2011 at 12:13 PM.

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    Believe me, for time being sail will be reefed unless wind is force 1 or less! You can see the two rows of 'eyes' (apols, don't know sailing terminology). Reefed to top set should get the sail area down to sub 30 square foot. If its still too hairy I'll have to shell out for the SD 25 rig, but at les than half the price, and just up the road from me this one will have to do for now.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredster View Post
    Right, progress continues. Am in the process of buying this sail...

    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...g-rig-for-sale

    ...which I realise at 44 square ft is big for a beginner, but I'm assuming/hoping when reefed in should be manageable if wind gets too strong for this newbie to sailing. I'll only be going out in very light winds to begin with, and hope to work my way up the beaufort scale as my competency increases.

    So I have lee boards and thwart, mast foot and thwart, and a sail and mast pending. Will start work on my rudder soon and will be practising deep water re-entry with my paddle float in the meantime. Obviously not going to start on the sailing until I'm happy I can get back in ok after a capsize.
    Back in the '90s a group of OCSG members got together and put in a group order for those sails from Steve Goacher - a very well respected sail maker in Windermere. Racing was quite a big deal in the OCSG in the '90s, and the design of that sail reflects that. Even though it is more of a racing sail, they have been used successfully for cruising on the West Coast of Scotland, both with and without outriggers. As you say, they do reef down.

    The sail has battens which pop into shape to make the correct aerofoil shape each time you tack, in light winds you may find that you need to shake the sail to get the battens to pop into the correct shape after each tack, in stronger winds the wind will do the job of popping the battens across.

    I think that sail would be a good choice for a beginner using outriggers, without outriggers you might find yourself on quite a steep learning curve, but it is definitely achievable, particularly if you are quite confident and active. And the sail will move the canoe nicely in a force 2, which is often better than learning in strong winds with a small sail.

    You don't mention side buoyancy bags in your post. I'm guessing you have these already? Side buoyancy is essential, and I would strongly recommend end buoyancy too. Practicing capsizes with the rig up is a good idea too.

    There's some info on the Solway Dory site...

    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/articles/capsize-recovery-technique-for-sailing-canoes/
    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/articles/sailing-your-canoe-upwind-part1/
    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/articles/sailing-your-canoe-upwind-part2/
    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/videos/13

    Please report back on how you're getting on.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredster View Post
    I've just bought a 15' 8" Old Town Discovery. Its old and beat up but a sound boat and the previous owner has fitted a mast foot and thwart.
    Just been thinking about this, I think the mast that is for sale with that rig will be 2" diameter - so you might need a larger mast foot and thwart. Although you probably would have needed that anyway, as a rig like that will need some form of side bracing if used with a polyethene hull. (Apologies if I'm telling you stuff that you know already). Stick with it though, that's a good sail, and once you get the hang of it you'll be sailing much faster than most of the folks on this forum.

    (If any one is wondering why I'm posting so much on the forum today after having avoided it for months, I'm sat with my leg up on the sofa after a trip to A and E to get some stitches put in my leg yesterday, I'll be fine for Ullswater at the weekend though).

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    Ah. Thanks for that Oceanic - then the mast is indeed wider than I anticipated. I was going to re-do the mast thwart as the current one is looking a bit shabby, and I have a hole cutter attachment so shouldn't be a problem. As it happens the mast foot could do with coming off as there is a slight leak at the bolt holes (mast foot bolted through hull!) so I'll replace and re-seal that too. Whilst I carry out these adjustments I'll add some bracing. Re the outriggers, I think I'll try the fully reefed sail first in some light winds and work up from there. If I'm constantly capsizing even then its not beyond me to make some outriggers. The boat will have front, rear and side flotation bags.

    I realise now that this sail is not the best suited to my needs but in my current financial situation (broke basically) it is the most direct route to getting on the water.

    Cheers for the helpful advice guys, its appreciated. Hope you're on the mend Oceanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredster View Post
    Believe me, for time being sail will be reefed unless wind is force 1 or less! You can see the two rows of 'eyes' (apols, don't know sailing terminology). Reefed to top set should get the sail area down to sub 30 square foot.
    You'll be fine !!! As you say: reefed, that sail is around 25-30 sqft at most.

    If you want to take the power out of the sail, don't tie the battens in too tightly, so they are not forced into a curve but can remain straight, and stretch the sail cloth along the boom as far as you can. Keep the kicking strap (the diagonal line from the boom to low down on the mast, which stops the boom from rising up) fairly slack and the top of the sail will twist in the wind and take all the power out of that bit, leaving only the bottom bit driving.

    have fun
    fishwics

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishwics View Post

    If you want to take the power out of the sail, don't tie the battens in too tightly, so they are not forced into a curve but can remain straight, and stretch the sail cloth along the boom as far as you can. Keep the kicking strap (the diagonal line from the boom to low down on the mast, which stops the boom from rising up) fairly slack and the top of the sail will twist in the wind and take all the power out of that bit, leaving only the bottom bit driving.

    have fun
    fishwics
    I definitely agree that loosening the battens will depower the sail, but be careful that you don't lose a batten. I can't remember how the battens are held in on those sails. Fishwic can you remember? If they are tied in then the batten tension tends to stop the knots loosening, so Fredster will need to be sure to tie good knots if he / she is not using much batten tension.

    I'm not sure about leaving the kicker tension off though, I would be inclined to put the kicker on hard in strong winds to bend the mast (which makes the sail flatter).

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    As i remember Steve, the masts were very stiff and the battens were a bit soft. When you pulled the kicker down hard the mast didnt bend much but the battens did, and the sails ended up being very full.
    Stiffer battens would probably have worked better.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    As i remember Steve, the masts were very stiff and the battens were a bit soft. When you pulled the kicker down hard the mast didnt bend much but the battens did, and the sails ended up being very full.
    Stiffer battens would probably have worked better.
    Thanks Dave and Fishwic, I reckon we'll have Fredster sailing like a pro in no time!

    Although I've just noticed that Fredster is a dog, which could be problematical.
    Last edited by Oceanic; 6th-September-2011 at 06:05 PM.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Ipswich, Suffolk
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    I would have thought a Mirror main sail is a bit big to learn to sail with. The canoe hull should be very easily driven and a Mirror jib would be a better option than trying to reef an old mainsail. Less sail area but potentially much more efficient. But then what do I know? Plenty of sailing experience in dinghies and yachts but only a pump hull canoe!!!

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