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Thread: National Service For 16yr olds

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    Default National Service For 16yr olds

    The Daily Fail is claiming that Cameron wants to introduce a national service type institution where amongst other things the "yoof" will be taught to go canoeing, and then no doubt have them all arrested for trespassing!

    Or maybe this is something that can be used to raise awareness of the access issues

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ce-16-ALL.html

  2. #2

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    Not quite "National Service" in it's old form (shame!) - but now it's "National Citizen Service"... http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeo...vice/index.htm

    And it's already being pilotted... but with mixed feedback so far.

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    Its a bit worrying that the rioting may give the government the "carte blanche" to introduce even more draconian powers but I have to say that national service sounds like a good idea, particularly if it isn't militarily orientated.
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    I'm glad I didn't have to do National Service! (It wasn't invented during the Hundred Years War.)

    No-one I've met who actually did it has a good thing to say about it.

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    Unless its mandatory it relies on people volunteering and like other vuluntary agreements the problem is that where it actually can make a difference people don't volunteer.

    'They work in their communities, whether thatís coaching children to play football, visiting old people at the hospital or offering a bike repair service to the community.'
    The bike repair service gets my vote as long as they start on Cameron's bike!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    I'm glad I didn't have to do National Service! (It wasn't invented during the Hundred Years War.)

    No-one I've met who actually did it has a good thing to say about it.
    All the Hazing and brainwashing that goes on with these types of institutions is a negative but a healthy dose of discipline, exercise and training never did anybody any harm.
    In fact quite the contrary, I would suggest it instils people to be responsible citizens.
    The fact that its possibly outdoor pursuits and character building exercises orientated, I think would be a good thing. It would probably involve job creation of a positive nature and build care in the community.
    If they are going to pay kids to participate, all the better.
    And nothing like natures Xbox to get kids to feel in touch with the planet.
    Maybe good things will come from the negative outburst.
    Interesting times ahead hopefully, in a good way.
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    Default Yes

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    Didn't Kennedy have something like this (at least in principle) set up in the early 1960's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TMorel View Post
    ...where amongst other things the "yoof" will be taught to go canoeing,
    Oh dear!
    I've just spent three tranquil days drifting down the Wye. Next time i'll probably have to share it with a bunch of hooded herberts!
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    Default P,f,l,o,p

    Its a good job Blair[the people liar]is not still on the thrown, he would have our disaffected hoodies, paddling down the Oxus, on route to invade Iran.

    Cameron and his pals have had this plan since before they got power {did they get a mandate ?] for a 'community based national service' for the'yoof', and I may be proved wrong, but I think it could be a good thing.

    As anyone knows there are many areas of the infer-structure of Britain, as well as conservation that would benefit from some attention, and if it helped people to see beyond the culture of 'me and mine', which has been all the rage since the days of Thatch, it would have some worth.

    I do not think our lords and masters are considering including members of the 'Bullingdon Club' in the first intake, which is a shame.

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    Well the angle I was hoping for was if canoeing is one of these great ways to get kids away from their XBoxes as POTS said, especially when the upcoming olympics showing them you can take this sport to the ultimate limits and then bam, hitting them with the access problem. Shouldn't the BCU be all over this sudden publicity saying yes, paddlesport is great for all ages and hey MP's, how about getting proper access to the rivers?

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    Will this just be for working class kids or will the middle classes be included too? Girls as well as boys?

    How will it affect people doing A-levels or other higher education?

    Will draft dodgers be able to escape across the border to Wales or Scotland to avoid their service?

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    It doesn't have to be particularly complicated, although undoubtedly there would be plenty of Logistics and the answers to such issues are rarely black and white.
    If you could provide evidence that you did not need it or had a sensible reason for abstaining e.g. health, commitments etc.
    Your obviously not going to get everyone to do it for one reason or another but if it was applied sensibly it could benefit a lot of kids and our society as a whole.
    Indeed, maybe one of the spin offs would be to get a result in terms of addressing the issue the poster of the thread was getting at.
    I suppose the danger is that it becomes just another big brother tool for controlling the lower echelons of society, rather than enriching their lives. Or just another badly executed enterprise that "the powers that be" waste our money on.
    Last edited by POTS; 16th-August-2011 at 12:29 AM.
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    I got chatting to a very interesting gent in town earlier; had plenty to say about government, law and order, police, society etc. He was 18 in 1943 and serving on the western front btw. We were talking about what my generation has got to contend with compared to his. He might live to see the massive social unrest that's on the way here. Will it be any more or less bearable than the war he fought in and the fallout or the arsing about in Suez, Malaya, Oman etc? We sort of concluded that our respective generations will just get the same shit on a different day.

    National service was something else we touched on and his first comparison was to the Hitler Youth. With the country the way it is at the moment, is an increasingly militarised society the answer? He ventured that it might just be training 21st century super thugs.



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    Last edited by AHPP; 16th-August-2011 at 12:16 AM.

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    This ''National Citizen Service'' from the .gov websites seems to be 3 weeks in the summer holidays,with 2 weeks away from home and a further 30 hours ''service.'' This seems to be more of a D of E type scheme(with participants being paid? ) rather than National Service.

    (Very clever use of words-should mollify those who parrot ''Bring back...National Service...Matron... The Birch...Hanging -without much understanding of the concepts )

    Those who call for National Service are mostly those who have never experienced it themselves. (You can experience it second hand in the very realistic 1st half of Full Metal Jacket for the training part; or the movie Platoon ,for a taste of the ops part in a forward base )
    -Other rank conscripts in any army are treated like pariahs by the authorities.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/1770071172?...89&camp=211189
    Last edited by andre; 16th-August-2011 at 12:21 AM. Reason: punctuation

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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Those who call for National Service are mostly those who have never experienced it themselves. (You can experience it second hand in the very realistic 1st half of Full Metal Jacket for the training part; or the movie Platoon ,for a taste of the ops part in a forward base )
    -Other rank conscripts in any army are treated like pariahs by the authorities.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/1770071172?...89&camp=211189

    Having served with some draftees - in the era of those films you refer to - I beg to differ. Yes, Basic can be difficult - physically and mentally - but no-one, in my experience was "treated like pariahs". It really depended on the person's willingness to do their best to reach the standards the Service required. And , as even those films had to acknowledge, there was nothing 'superhuman' required to qualify - just some hard work.

    I did not serve in a firebase, or any in-country forward combat zone, because, in my day, women weren't allowed to. I did however spend some time in an Admin capacity in Saigon, (which did from time-to-time resemble a 'combat zone'... ) in the course of which I did interact with numerous draftees and never had cause to question their ability, loyalty, or committment to the Service.

    I am not advocating "National Service" in any country, but I do think your blanket condemnation is mis-placed and largely inaccurate.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    Having served with some draftees - in the era of those films you refer to - I beg to differ. Yes, Basic can be difficult - physically and mentally - but no-one, in my experience was "treated like pariahs". It really depended on the person's willingness to do their best to reach the standards the Service required. And , as even those films had to acknowledge, there was nothing 'superhuman' required to qualify - just some hard work.

    I did not serve in a firebase, or any in-country forward combat zone, because, in my day, women weren't allowed to. I did however spend some time in an Admin capacity in Saigon, (which did from time-to-time resemble a 'combat zone'... ) in the course of which I did interact with numerous draftees and never had cause to question their ability, loyalty, or committment to the Service.

    I am not advocating "National Service" in any country, but I do think your blanket condemnation is mis-placed and largely inaccurate.

    Just my 2 cents.
    I think we have a cultural difference here. Britain traditionally had a small professional army as opposed to the vast hordes of conscripts enlisted by the continentals (not to mention the colonial militias that you lot raised against us). National Service only caught here on during the two World Wars, and for a short while afterwards. It was never too popular in peacetime. And didn't do much use in saving our crumbling empire.

    If we conscript people to do canoeing, I'm giving up.


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    My eldest daughter is taking part the "pilot" of this, they are calling it the "One Big Summer". Not free, we had to pay a small fee, heavily subsidised by the Tax Payer (Thank you all very much ). She wanted to do it and has enjoyed it but, one lad was forced to go, either by parents or officials (youth court??), and he ended up being sent home for non-participation!!! This was after he spent a week away "playing" in Surrey!

    It will nly work if everyone takes part and accepts it as necessary! The more we molly-coddle young people the more they need hand holding, bring back tree climbing, conkers and British Bulldog - Save Jeopardy is the way to teach children risk and avoiding it, and instills some personal discipline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    Having served with some draftees - in the era of those films you refer to - I beg to differ. Yes, Basic can be difficult - physically and mentally - but no-one, in my experience was "treated like pariahs". It really depended on the person's willingness to do their best to reach the standards the Service required. And , as even those films had to acknowledge, there was nothing 'superhuman' required to qualify - just some hard work.

    I did not serve in a firebase, or any in-country forward combat zone, because, in my day, women weren't allowed to. I did however spend some time in an Admin capacity in Saigon, (which did from time-to-time resemble a 'combat zone'... ) in the course of which I did interact with numerous draftees and never had cause to question their ability, loyalty, or committment to the Service.

    I am not advocating "National Service" in any country, but I do think your blanket condemnation is mis-placed and largely inaccurate.

    Just my 2 cents.
    If being paid 10% of a regular's pay ; 10% of a regular's annual leave allowance ; and not allowed off base after working hours (except for a week end pass once a month-which might be cancelled on a whim)-unlike a regular who is ''free'' after duties- is not being treated as a pariah,then I withdraw my words. Talk to any Greek,Portugese,French or Turk guy about National Service conditions.

    National Service is about compulsion.(Not really different to the press gang).

    The UK has got it right with a professional army and volunteer reserve forces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    If being paid 10% of a regular's pay ; 10% of a regular's annual leave allowance ; and not allowed off base after working hours (except for a week end pass once a month-which might be cancelled on a whim)-unlike a regular who is ''free'' after duties- is not being treated as a pariah,then I withdraw my words. Talk to any Greek,Portugese,French or Turk guy about National Service conditions.

    National Service is about compulsion.(Not really different to the press gang).

    The UK has got it right with a professional army and volunteer reserve forces.
    Absolutely NONE of those things was ever true in the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

    A draftee was paid the same, had the same entitlement to liberty/shore leave/whatever, received the same training, carried the same weapons etc etc as any member of the Regular forces. And, received the same Veterans' Benefits as everyone else as well.

    I can't speak for members of those other services you mentioned - never served with 'em. I did however, over the years, serve with draftees from Norway, Denmark, Israel, and Australia, and none of what you are saying was true for them.

    I repeat - I am NOT advocating any form of National Service, for anyone. Just trying to keep the record straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r View Post
    Absolutely NONE of those things was ever true in the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

    A draftee was paid the same, had the same entitlement to liberty/shore leave/whatever, received the same training, carried the same weapons etc etc as any member of the Regular forces. And, received the same Veterans' Benefits as everyone else as well.

    I can't speak for members of those other services you mentioned - never served with 'em. I did however, over the years, serve with draftees from Norway, Denmark, Israel, and Australia, and none of what you are saying was true for them.

    I repeat - I am NOT advocating any form of National Service, for anyone. Just trying to keep the record straight.
    That's a very civilized and fair system,then.(Other than the compulsion and disruption of ''civvie'' careers ).

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    A volunteer is worth a dozen pressed men. Or women.



    (BTW When I said we didn't really have a tradition of conscription over here, I meant for the Army. The Royal Navy had a fine tradition of recruiting via press gangs. Most of my bow paddlers were recruited that way. )

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    Free access to scholarships and higher education will do more for people in the long run. But then who would be around to work for £6 an hour and serve the upper class?

    The odd riot is a small price to pay for status quo, oligarchy as usual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    ...The Royal Navy had a fine tradition of recruiting via press gangs. Most of my bow paddlers were recruited that way. )
    I didn't know you paddle for Queen and Country Crow. Things are becoming a whole lot clearer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohojacques View Post
    I didn't know you paddle for Queen and Country Crow. Things are becoming a whole lot clearer...
    "Rum, s***y and the lash"

    Well, one of them.

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    Default on the other hand...

    But that's the British Navy.

    On the other hand...


    "Where can you find pleasure, search the world for treasure,
    learn science, technology?
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    on the land or on the sea?
    Where can you learn to fly, play in sports or skindive,
    study oceanography?
    Sign up for the big band or sit in the grand stand
    when your team and others meet?"

    In the US Navy.

    (Apparently.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    But that's the British Navy.

    On the other hand...


    "Where can you find pleasure, search the world for treasure,
    learn science, technology?
    Where can you begin to make your dreams all come true
    on the land or on the sea?
    Where can you learn to fly, play in sports or skindive,
    study oceanography?
    Sign up for the big band or sit in the grand stand
    when your team and others meet?"

    In the US Navy.

    (Apparently.)
    So Crow, were you the Indian or the Motor cycle Cop ?

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    Or the Viking?

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    Or, the West Village Navy:





    (for them as don't know, that's the Gay Village in NYC...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
    So Crow, were you the Indian or the Motor cycle Cop ?
    The Muppet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Free access to scholarships and higher education will do more for people in the long run. But then who would be around to work for £6 an hour and serve the upper class?

    The odd riot is a small price to pay for status quo, oligarchy as usual.
    £6 an hour - that's luxury - my daugter works for between £3.50 and £4.00 (paid a daily rate - some days she works 8 hours, others it's nearer 12!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    I think we have a cultural difference here. Britain traditionally had a small professional army as opposed to the vast hordes of conscripts enlisted by the continentals
    that made me smile: i guess i was one of those vast hordes of continental conscripts.
    personally, i do not think armies of conscripts are a necessity in today's world. it may have been different in napoleonic days or during the cold war but at the time, every male had to do it and nobody asked our opinion. it was just part of life.

    having said that, although it was not a choice i don't regret that time. of course it was not all fun and holidays but overall, it was a good time. and i know from various friends also from other european countries that they share this opinion. i think such a service, whether it's military or civilian, gives you a bit of a reality check and some time to develop after a young person leaves school, and before going into further education or starting a job. also that you are then serving society as a whole, or your country, give it a different perspective then just doing a job for your own profit. not a bad thing to teach people, in my eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fran View Post
    £6 an hour - that's luxury - my daugter works for between £3.50 and £4.00 (paid a daily rate - some days she works 8 hours, others it's nearer 12!)
    Does the UK not have Minimum Wage Laws????

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