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Thread: Access map

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by aracer View Post
    .... given I put a section in green which had already been added in red (and for which right of navigation may not be 100% undisputed) I may just be causing more trouble!
    Ahah! Is this the Teme to Powick Mill. Don't worry about causing trouble - these situations need to be resolved. I've started a new thread here to help deal with such cases.

    If we can't agree that means there is dispute - so it'll be marked as disputed access (i.e.red)
    Keith

  2. #122

  3. #123

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    The upper bit of what's marked as Vyrnwy is actually Afon Banwy - the clue being another river heading to Lake Vyrwy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aracer View Post
    The upper bit of what's marked as Vyrnwy is actually Afon Banwy
    I've fixed it ..... and taken the "Afon" off all Welsh rivers so they don't all appear under "A"
    Keith

  5. #125

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    The more I think about it, the more I think Canals shouldn''t appear...we are not campaigning for access to canals, we are campaigning for access to rivers...
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I think Canals shouldn''t appear...we are not campaigning for access to canals, we are campaigning for access to rivers...
    It's hard to decide where rivers end and canals begin e.g.the Wey navigation but I intend to make it so that you can "switch off" the main "Navigation" system. They will be there (so no-one can claim we are ignoring them) but the user (with a bit of prompting?) can still choose to ignore them.
    Last edited by KeithD; 29th-May-2011 at 05:12 PM.
    Keith

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    Default River Trent (part of) added

    Hi Keith,

    I've added the section of the Trent we paddle regularly as a club (a mile or two above Swarkestone Bridge to the junction with the Derwent and the Trent and Mersey Canal).
    I'm not aware of any access restrictions.

    It's an interesting project.

    John

  8. #128
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    With regard to Canals, I think they should be shown. The current statistic is that we have access to only 4% of inland waterways, and that as I understand it includes canals.

    Although the access map could come with a spec that says that it refers only to natural water courses. We don't want the fishing lobby accusing the map of being inaccurate (look at all those canals they can paddle on that they've ignored! Of course the natural retort to that is "look at all those specially built fishing lakes you can fish on", but I digress...)

  9. #129
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    Default Somerset waterways mapped

    There are a load of existing Google-mapped waterways for Somerset here. No idea if it's possible to import the data (Doug?), but it's a shame that there is not an equivalent site for every other English and Welsh county.
    Last edited by John Saunders; 29th-May-2011 at 07:30 PM. Reason: Typo: "county" not "country"

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
    I've added the section of the Trent
    By coincidence I was working from Great Haywood downstream so I've joined the two together. It is a public navigation covered by the BCU licence.
    Keith

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Saunders View Post
    There are a load of existing Google-mapped waterways for Somerset here. No idea if it's possible to import the data (Doug?), but it's a shame that there is not an equivalent site for every other English and Welsh county.
    In most cases the coordinates seem to be isolated points with attached photos and text which makes it a bit more involved to strip out the data but in the case of the Aller there was a table of coordinates for the route of the river which I was able to capture but they are using a different system from us and they didn't translate onto our map.

    I does go to show how many rivers there are in one county. Could be used as a "shopping list" for someone to input from.
    Keith

  12. #132
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    Default Access Maps

    This tread has prompted me to get a move on with something that I have been working on. Prompted by a thought, wouldent it be nice if I could check out a web page that shows me where to get on and off a local river or canal. I had a go at making up a spreedsheet type of thing showing access points as co ords. Then with a bit of development Lat and long to enter into a sat nav.

    I asked a local canoe trader who also works in creating web pages and web sites for advice on what to do. I had bought "the Dummies guide to web pages" and I though HOW HARD CAN IT BE. Err very.

    Any how it turns out he was working on creating a web site called midlands canals, so if I could give him a hand. I could then tack on my wed site onto it. There are a lot of canals in the West Midlands and after a year I think that we have the majority of it done now.

    So at long last I can get on with creating a web site that shows where you can get a canoe / kakak on and off a canal in the midlands. All I need is some time to do it, I now know how to, and intend to use Ordnance Survey open data mapping as a backdrop, with Google as a back up.

    Hopefully it wont take me a year to do this time.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I think Canals shouldn''t appear...we are not campaigning for access to canals, we are campaigning for access to rivers...
    I agree. When I saw the canals added I suddenly thought the map didn't look so bad, especially where the canals where close enough to disputed rivers to cover up the red lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    I intend to make it so that you can "switch off" the main "Navigation" system.
    Good idea Keith is that going to be something on the output map?
    Bootstrap
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  14. #134
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    Should canals have a different colour code?

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    Personally I would make it Rivers only as we are campaigning for rivers, we have access to canals through watereways licences.

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    Trouble is though that those same waterways licenses also cover some rivers such as the Severn below Stourport. Also, to people who do not canoe, and to the fishermen, their argument will be that there are all those canals available which we have conveniently omitted from the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMW View Post
    Trouble is though that those same waterways licenses also cover some rivers such as the Severn below Stourport. Also, to people who do not canoe, and to the fishermen, their argument will be that there are all those canals available which we have conveniently omitted from the map.
    Absolutely. I believe we lose credibility if we pick & choose what we show. The ability to switch off the canals may be useful though, & there is an argument to show even less access percentage when we're talking about running water. As I said previously, its up to us to make sure we add all the other rivers & waterways. If we believe our own figures, & only 4% or less are accessible, the map cannot fail to prove the point once complete. This will take some time.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    I does go to show how many rivers there are in one county. Could be used as a "shopping list" for someone to input from.
    I have already posted a list of English rivers. The wiki site also contained a list of Welsh rivers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_England

  19. #139
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    There will be some way of screening out the canal system on the basis that
    • we pay for this
    • we share this with walkers, anglers, motorised vessels, industry etc
    • Whilst valuable, this is the equivalent of allowing ramblers to use "A" roads

    The next area of focus will be access agreements and we must be ready and able to tackle this and show
    • The limited extent of rivers covered by agreement
    • The limitations on the time during which access is granted (often only one day)
    • The limitations on numbers/groups allowed access
    • other significant restrictions which reduce the benefit of such "agreements"

    Canoe England have indicated they will be able to provide information on such agreements that they are party to within the next week or so.

    Would anyone like to volunteer to lead the compiling of this data into spreadsheet/database format to enable us to demonstrate why this is not an effective solution to the access problem?
    Keith

  20. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I have already posted a list of English rivers. The wiki site also contained a list of Welsh rivers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_England
    It's a wonder we don't sink!!!!

    Keep up the good work guys, it's inspirational!

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    Within Doug's link the the Brighton studies (http://www.brighton.ac.uk/waterrecreation/) there was this map of river access in the South East





    Unfortunately there isn't one for each region or it would make our job easier! It demonstrates quite clearly that there are many rivers with no access, though it presumably makes no effort to check if the rivers are big enough to physically paddle.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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  22. #142

    Default A few corrections

    Hi guys,

    I've been away for a few days, so great to see the progress on this, however, there are a few rivers which have now been inputed where the current access situation shown is wrong.

    Conwy
    The agreement here has not existed at all for at least five years. It is now paddled far more than previously, but there is severe trouble with local landowners and one particular miscreant with nothing better to do with his time but hassle paddlers. Change from orange to red.

    Ure
    Section from Black Robin Beck to Slenningford. Now has a restrictive agreement endorsed by CE despite most paddlers' better judgement. Change this section from red to orange.

    Barle
    Tarr Steps to Exe confluence. Land owner at put-in changed a few years ago and the agreement was scrapped (not clear if it was still CE endorsed anyway at this point). Doesn't seem to have changed numbers padlling. Change from orange to red.

    Hope this helps!

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Pullen View Post
    ..... there are a few rivers which have now been inputed where the current access situation shown is wrong.
    The situation ref access agreements is very unclear but I am hoping to get some decent information from Canoe England in the next week or so.

    In Wales there are no "agreements" since Canoe Wales don't agree but we need to show what was "on offer" with the caveat that CW don't agree.

    Keep flagging up these issues.
    Keith

  24. #144

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    In Wales there are no "agreements" since Canoe Wales don't agree but we need to show what was "on offer" with the caveat that CW don't agree.
    Not sure I'd agree with this.

    There were 11 agreements in Wales before CW stopped negotiating. Since then the Wye and Usk one was imposed and I think the national trust have suggested one for the Glaslyn gorge. It's certainly not clear which ones would have continued had CW taken a different stance.

    In the case of the conwy, the number limits and signing-in clauses were regularly being ignored for years beforehand and I doubt the anglers would have continued to renew the agreement when most paddlers were ignoring their ridiculous terms anyway.

    In England I note the Dart (possibly the most popular ww river in the UK) is shown as having disputed access, despite the anglers and landowners offering terms, but CE no longer endorsing the agreement. If you want consistency then this should be orange too? Ditto the Swale where the charity paddle would still be offered one weekend a year, yet SOC have decided to no longer run it as the Swale is now regularly paddled without confrontation.

  25. #145

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    Actually, thinking about this again - surely the only ones marked orange should be those where you can paddle at certain times and be sure not to get abuse by landowners/fishermen as they believe an agreement to be in place? In which case I'd go Conwy as a very bright red and the Dart as orange!

  26. #146
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    Once I have some input from Canoe England I'll try to draft up a set of principle to determine how we show "agreements" and try to get a view from Canoe Wales that gives a consistent interpretation.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    If anyone has info about rivers but not time to trace them on the map, send me your info...
    The Cam has been input as far up as Cambridge and Byron's pool. I know it is paddleable down from Shelford on the Granta, while the 1936 BCU handbook claims it can be paddled from Audley End (and I seem to remember a thread on SoTP where I asked and someone replied they had done it, but warned that many of the mills are now privately owned and portaging might be a problem).

    There are two other tributaries to the Cam, the Rhee (Ree?) and I think a second Granta/Cam. The local canoe club paddle one of these (the Rhee/Ree, I think) once a year down from Barrington. I would guess these upper reaches, being beyond the jurisdiction of the Cam Conservancy all count as disputed access, even though I'm not aware of anyone specifically forbidding access.

    I mention these, because I think these smaller upper tributaries that are rarely paddled today are a large percentage of your missing 96% of disputed rivers. Another missing part would presumably be the backwaters off the main navigations.

    Sorry I haven't time to trace them for you. I am full of admiration for this project and those helping complete it. Well done all!
    Ian

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    Default Wychwood/Evenlode

    Is what is labelled as Wychwood not actually the Evenlode? (Eynsham, off Thames west of Oxford)
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    Quote Originally Posted by idc View Post
    The Cam has been input as far up as Cambridge and Byron's pool. I know it is paddleable down from Shelford on the Granta, while the 1936 BCU handbook claims it can be paddled from Audley End
    Thanks for the information. I've updated it.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    Is what is labelled as Wychwood not actually the Evenlode? (Eynsham, off Thames west of Oxford)
    The OS map only calls it the Evinlode so I have changed it.
    Keith

  31. #151

    Default Cheers Keith

    Excellent bit of kit Keith. top thumbs you to you and yours.

    I've added/amended a few bits.

    Added the River Washburn in Yorkshire.
    Amended a bit of the River Nidd in Knaresborough (although I may have said 'yes' rather than 'no' in the disputed access bit.
    Amended a section of the River Ure above Ripon. There is an access agreement from Hack Fall to Sleningford.

    D

  32. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Pullen View Post
    Hi guys,

    Ure
    Section from Black Robin Beck to Slenningford. Now has a restrictive agreement endorsed by CE despite most paddlers' better judgement. Change this section from red to orange.

    !
    The Ure Access agreement has been in place for many years and works pretty well. It was suspended last year after some abuse, butyit is now up and running again. Basically it is paddling any day from October - March (inc), no paddling April - June (inc), then a mixture of Saturdays and Sundays and every Thursday in July - Spetember (inc). Also any day it is in spate. The ure is often very low in the summer months anyway.

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    Default Maps

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw View Post
    Can I do Scotland This is a great idea Keith, just takes a little participation and it'd be even better!!
    Would it be best in Scotland to accept we can go on any loch/river unless highlighted in red or yellow for partially to show where there are restrictions because of nature reserves etc?

    Just a thought,because a few highlights would be more meaningful than a sea of green.

    Haggis

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    The Ure Access agreement has been in place for many years and works pretty well. It was suspended last year after some abuse, butyit is now up and running again. Basically it is paddling any day from October - March (inc), no paddling April - June (inc), then a mixture of Saturdays and Sundays and every Thursday in July - Spetember (inc). Also any day it is in spate. The ure is often very low in the summer months anyway.

    Not a great 'arrangement' then.

  35. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by darbinotley View Post
    The Ure Access agreement has been in place for many years and works pretty well. It was suspended last year after some abuse, butyit is now up and running again. Basically it is paddling any day from October - March (inc), no paddling April - June (inc), then a mixture of Saturdays and Sundays and every Thursday in July - Spetember (inc). Also any day it is in spate. The ure is often very low in the summer months anyway.
    Not convinced that makes it undisputed! A seasonal agreement, when done for conservation reasons etc, MAY be OK. One for specific days of the week doesn't sound very good to me.
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  36. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by darbinotley View Post
    I've added/amended a few bits.

    Added the River Washburn in Yorkshire.
    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by darbinotley View Post
    Amended a bit of the River Nidd in Knaresborough (although I may have said 'yes' rather than 'no' in the disputed access bit.
    The fact that it is used doesn't mean its a right and not disputed - I'm inclined to leave this as it was.
    Quote Originally Posted by darbinotley View Post
    Amended a section of the River Ure above Ripon. There is an access agreement from Hack Fall to Sleningford.
    OK
    Keith

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    Hi folks.

    Well, this is actually proving to be highly inspiring. If anybody thinks there are not many places to paddle, try a bit of online exploration. I've found literally dozens of rivers that look interesting to paddle of which I had never heard, in the course of completing the access map.


    I've spent a few days now working on the Severn "catchment" (with tributaries inc Warwks Avon), as well as the Somerset Avon. Whilst there are still some small rivers/streams I've missed out, & I may have missed others accidentally, I've now added in everything I THINK might be paddleable. A lot of these I found evidence of previous paddling & access info, but for many I could find nothing on the web. This is not conclusive though, so I may have info wrong.

    The way I have been approaching this is as follows:

    1. Use the wiki List of Rivers of England/Wales (as usefully linked by Adrian) to identify every water of any significant size flowing into the Severn system. This is a great tick list. Check on the Output map that its not already done. Also scan along the river on the OS map in case any are missed (not found any)
    2. Use an OS map website (I've used Bing maps for this) to get a rough idea of stream size, in conjunction with google satellite views. On OS maps, if the stream/river shows as two parallel blue lines it is quite possibly big enough, single lined parts are small.
    3. Open a new Input screen & use the search to get to a nearby village.
    4. Check CE/UKRGB/the worldwide web etc for any info on these rivers (the CE West Mids pages were very useful http://www.canoe-englandwestmidlands...B/Default.aspx). As an aside, I find the Canoe England website & regions almost impossible to navigate to find info, its far easier just to google it to get to the relevant pages). Put a link on your input page to these pages, for the river you are looking at.
    5. Estimate the furthest up a river might be navigable with reasonable water levels. I use the width of nearby single track roads to gauge how wide a river is, & if its as roughly as wide as a road it goes in! I am not interested in if the river is blocked, or easy to pass down, merely if it is theoretically OK to paddle in a kayak.
    6. Tick the appropriate access option, add any info or links, & start clicking. By default I've used the satellite view, but sometimes in trees & towns you can lose this so I flip to the more approximate map screen, or compare to the OS map.

    It takes a while, but if you have the chance & enjoy looking at maps, you learn a massive amount as you go on! Whilst an element of judgement is involved, I do believe this approach is a good way of getting a comprehensive picture of the paddleable rivers of England & Wales.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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  38. #158

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    I've done about 80% of the known paddleable rivers north of Machester/York and south of the border now. As you can see there's a lot of red (not that that has ever stopped me paddling these beautiful rivers)!

    It looks to me like all you midlands-based open canoeists are spoilt for your flat canals and navigations! ;-)

    If anyone wants to crack on with Wales, then Chris Sladen's entire guidebook is available on the canoe wales site here: http://www.canoewales.com/paddling-in-wales-rivers.aspx this is by far the most thorough text available, covering some 310 sections.

    I've been using a similar method to Mal, using UKRGB, White Water Lake District, English White Water, A Canoeist's guide to the North East and Yorkshire rivers, together with personal knowledge as my references. I tend to use the street map when the rivers are large, switching to satelite for the small unmarked becks. I also have the OS map open on Bing to help.

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    Regarding the River Leadon in Herefordshire/Gloucestershire, I'll check this one out. As far as I know there isn't really any problems on it. It is paddleable, and it was on the local news a few months back as a guy was trying to get it cleaned up so that it could be used more for recreational purposes (NOT exclusively fishing).

  40. #160

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    Regarding the River Leadon in Herefordshire/Gloucestershire, I'll check this one out. As far as I know there isn't really any problems on it. It is paddleable, and it was on the local news a few months back as a guy was trying to get it cleaned up so that it could be used more for recreational purposes (NOT exclusively fishing).
    They're aren't really any problems on the majority of rivers marked red, but (unless I've completely misunderstood the point of this) the use could potentially be disputed in the future unless it's actually a navigation?

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    They're aren't really any problems on the majority of rivers marked red, but (unless I've completely misunderstood the point of this) the use could potentially be disputed in the future unless it's actually a navigation?
    You're right, but I wasn't sure if it was a navigation. It was traditionally used for industry and there are a fair few mills along it. But I have since fund that although it has been paddled, negotiations for a VAA are underway for it. So it does indeed need to remain red (I will say that it is a bit of a ditch anyway!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMW View Post
    negotiations for a VAA are underway for it.
    Strange! Do you know who is doing this?

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    Not sure, but this is what I found. It could be pretty old.
    http://www.yourhorsephotos.com/canoeing/leadon/info.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMW View Post
    Not sure, but this is what I found. It could be pretty old.
    http://www.yourhorsephotos.com/canoeing/leadon/info.htm

    The 'your horse photos' is, I believe, Amelia's website [one of the Mods, but we have not heard from her for some while].

  45. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    Thanks!
    The fact that it is used doesn't mean its a right and not disputed - I'm inclined to leave this as it was.
    OK
    On this bit, there is a commercial business operating rowing boat hire on the river, and has been doing so for many years. The bottom weir has a boom across to stop boats, and the top section has a 'no boats past here' sign. There is also a brown tourist sign with a pic of a canoeist on the sign for the car park. My thinking is if this bit was in as a 'no paddling' river, detractors of the map may point out that it is an innaccuracy.

    Regarding the Ure access agreement, most of the local paddlers I know seem to be happy with it, and it does actually work pretty well. Still, this isn't the right thread for a debate about it.

    I've also updated a very small section of the Ure in Ripon where the BCU own the river right bank.

    D

  46. #166

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    Added the Dovey and Mawddach in Wales (well, parts of)

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    Apologies if this has been asked or mentioned before, but I was speed reading and didn't see it...

    Is the data you are collecting in a recognised format? Stored in text form etc? With a backup?

    I know from experience that projects like this can soon stop when the main person is unable to continue for any reason but as long as the data is in a good format it could be picked up sometime in the future by someone else to continue the work if needed.
    --
    Andy

  48. #168
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    Default Update time again

    OK, here's a snapshot of the map, a week has made a big difference;

    LAST WEEK



    NOW



    Steadily getting there!

    The Midlands, East & East Anglia need a bit of work. I'm working round the East Anglian coast from the Rivers List adding the inland rivers, but am having a break now till Monday.

    The north (n of manch), Severn Catchment, south central & south east are well on the way if not nearly there, in terms of sensibly paddleable rivers.

    Wales has many of the key rivers done, but there are lots still in need of attention.



    Keith, does the data catch the distance clicked for each river, as it does in the standard map version? Would be very interesting to compare total distance of each with the previously quoted figures, once we get a bit closer to being comprehensive.


    Thanks to all who've been helping!
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    Excellent work Mal. Unfortunately I need to be earning a living during the day.

    I did have a scan over the map since it seems to have rather a lot of green; there are quite considerable lengths of canal which are distorting the picture.

  50. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by andylincs View Post
    Is the data you are collecting in a recognised format? Stored in text form etc? With a backup?
    The data is in a SQL database and is backed up every night. The coordinates that plot the routes are latitude and longitude as used in google maps.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    The data is in a SQL database and is backed up every night. The coordinates that plot the routes are latitude and longitude as used in google maps.
    Excellent, thanks for the reply - I was just interested. I'll take a much better look over the weekend at the map.
    --
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    The map is getting more red every day... a graphic display of how private interests ensure that the general population are excluded from what should be their birthright.

    If the canals weren't shown it would be almost all red.
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  53. #173
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    We will soon be able to filter out the canals but in the meantime one of the characteristics of all canals is the need for water. In most cases this was satisfied by building the canals next to, or nearby, rivers so seek out those rivers and put a big red line along it!!

    I'm also finding that while many river navigations have been marked on the map, the upstream section of the river and tributaries have been omitted. Since these will invariably have disputed access there can often be as much red on the map as green from a river that is thought of as a navigation.
    Keith

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    Yeah, this is one of the key things I'm finding as I work my way round the country - a navigation marked, but the old rivers, upper river sections & tributaries are not always done. I'm trying to mark any rivers as far up as they look physically paddleable in a kayak. I'm sure we'll get them in the end.

    I'm not sure what to do about all the drains in the flatlands of the east. Very little info on the interwebby, though some look big enough to canoe down. Anybody got intimate knowledge of the fens/Lincolnshire etc?

    Map looking a lot redder now!
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

    Paddle Points - where to paddle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    Anybody got intimate knowledge of the fens/Lincolnshire
    I drive past them often and will be paddling most around Boston in the next few weeks. The ones near me are classed as "Witham Navigable drains" but many that aren't classed as navigable are plenty big enough for a canoe. A search on google maps for "Anton's Gowt, Boston" will show the ones I mean.

    I did the Billinghay Skirth off of the Witham near Tattershall bridge the other day and can tell you that is easily navigable by a canoe up to the Village bridge of Billinghay - I didn't have time to go further - I will in the coming weeks. This Skirth is classed as non-navigable I think (?)

    The River Bain off of the Witham at Dogdyke all the way to Kirky on Bain is OK in a canoe although some parts are shallow if there hasn't been any rain for a while. Done that. This will also be classed as non navigable.

    You also have the River Slea / Kyme Eau from Chapel Hill on the Witham all the way to Sleaford...This can be done as there are bloggs of it on this site. Only part of this is classed as Navigable.

    I'd add these myself but need an early night as I have a very early drive tomorrow...

    In future I will add all the places I paddle to your map.

    Hope this helps
    --
    Andy

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    Updated The Suffolk Stour, now goes Red all the way upstream until it's little more than a ditch.

    Added Belchamp Brook and the river Glem (sorry Keith forgot to add the password)
    SF Peterborough 14'
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    (sorry Keith forgot to add the password)
    Already fixed - I do it often myself!
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    I'm not sure what to do about all the drains in the flatlands of the east.
    Many of the Fenland waterways are officially navigations. Although it will be more green I think we need to include them.
    Keith

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    Of course, the true picture is key.

    Once the "zap all navigations" button is added we have both options anyway!

    Currently on "the bench" on the Basingstoke waiting for venison burgers!
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

    Paddle Points - where to paddle

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    Be sure to extend the rivers course far enough upstream. These pictures are several miles upstream of the limit of the rivers course plotted on the map.





    and this one is even further up!



    Many rivers are very paddle-able well upstream of the blue line shown on "Map" view.
    Last edited by KeithD; 7th-June-2011 at 09:22 PM.
    Keith

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