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Thread: Access map

  1. #61
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    We have now updated the input form so that you can indicate where an access agreement exists.

    The problem with Internet Explorer not showing the rivers is fixed. Access agreements are not amber yet but I am confident they will be soon.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    Access agreement that meet the 365 days criteria are still access agreements (since they can be rescinded on a whim). If you input these as "disputed" but send me a note to explain there is an agreement, I'll change the colour to amber.
    I can see this generating arguments. If there is an agreement such as the Greta or Mole which could be recinded they are marked as 'disputed'. I see the Hampshire Avon, which we are arguing has a statutory right of navigation is also marked disputed presumably just because some people are unaware of the law.

  3. #63

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    Can't resist putting my paddle in... (I have to say again that Keith is doing a magnificent job with this)...

    Let’s say our ultimate objective is an access situation similar to Scotland where a statutory right to access (might not be the correct legal terminology) is the norm for all rivers... then we have three classes of rivers in England and Wales;

    1. Rivers where a statutory right to navigate exists (green)
    2. Rivers where a rescindable agreement to navigate (from 1 to 365 days per year) exists (orange)
    3. Rivers where no agreement or statutory right exists or an agreement is disputed(red)

    Does that cover all cases?
    Last edited by dougdew99; 25th-May-2011 at 04:06 PM.
    Doug Dew
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I can see this generating arguments. If there is an agreement such as the Greta or Mole which could be recinded they are marked as 'disputed'. I see the Hampshire Avon, which we are arguing has a statutory right of navigation is also marked disputed presumably just because some people are unaware of the law.
    If there is an agreement (e.g the Greta or Mole) it will be amber with a link to the agreement. If the Hampshire Avon is disputed it has to be red since the amount or red on the map is to demonstrate why the law needs to be clarified. It's not that some angling interests are not aware of the navigation acts it's that they dispute that they are still in force.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    I'm thinking we may have an issue here by asking people to ideally input rivers known to them.
    This is just a matter of priorities - if you have a choice of two rivers to input, one that you know and one you dont, do the one you know first - then do the other one - then find some more to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    Certainly if we added canals & Navigations to the map, we would look very much as if there were loads of waterways with access, but without these added our case is easy to knock back.
    Again, it's a matter of priorities. All canals will need to be added but lets concentrate on natural rivers first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    If we're to get all these disputed rivers on the map, its going to take a bit more research I guess.
    Lets start with the rivers on UKRGB - by definition they are paddleable by some people in some conditions. when all these are loaded we will have to be more creative in identifying what to do next.
    Keith

  6. #66

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    Mal - the dodgy Eden agreement was included in my list of non-ideal ones in Northern England:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim
    Less ideal old-style access agreements would be for most of the Tyne system (see here but not clear exactly what becks are covered), the Ure (Black Robin Beck to Slenningford), the Crake, the Eden (Lazonby to Armathwaite), the Lune (Rigmaden Bridge & Kirkby Lonsdale), the lower Derwent (Bassenthwaite Lake to tidal limit).


    KeithD - fair point on all access agreements/arrangements being potentially disputed - one of the main problems with the debate is exactly how complicated all this is to understand! Of the 4 or 5 365-day arrangements, the Mersey does include some sections which now have dedicated public access rights under the CROW legislation. I think this means that they can't be withdrawn on a whim any more, so are almost as good as a full right of navigation.

    You now have three boxes on your input field, which I have been using for "Is the right to paddle here disputed?" with the options of Yes, No and "an access agreement exists". I'll treat all agreements as the same and provide details in the comments from now on if that suits you?

    Some useful links for info on various access agreements/arrangements:
    Canoe England 365-day arrangements
    Wye and Usk Foundation "agreements" (not endorsed by CW)
    Cumbrian agreements (partially endorsed by CE depending on who you talk to)
    Ure agreement (against CE policy but endorsed by them)
    Tyne System Agreement
    (against CE policy but endorsed by them)
    Dart access info on when the fishing concerns don't mind you paddling, no longer CE endorsed.
    East Lyn - national trust "agreement," not CE endorsed

    I'm sure there's others that some BCU "access officers" will tell you apply. The problem is that in a lot of cases CE/BCU head office haven't been in contact with these people for some years to advise them of current national policy. This can be illustrated by the fact that the title of the role changed to "river adviser" back in around 2005!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Pullen View Post
    This can be illustrated by the fact that the title of the role changed to "river adviser" back in around 2005!
    And maybe ''volunteer Waterways Advisors'' according to the job description for the Andy Green replacement. But we haven't been told about this yet.

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    OK. Added; Eden, Lune, Ribble in the NW, also Monnow on Wales/England border.

    Having a rest now!
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  9. #69

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    Keith,

    Just added the Little Ouse from Thetford to Brandon all worked well thanks to you for providing this a excellent tool.

    Many thanks
    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poseiden View Post
    Keith,

    Just added the Little Ouse from Thetford to Brandon
    Many thanks
    Paul
    And thats just what I was going to do this evening. Maybe i'll start on the lodes instead.

    Sam

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    At present, I'm filling in parts of rivers where I know I'm allowed to paddle because they are covered by my BCU licence. What I'm not sure about yet, is how far up the rivers I can go. As an example, in the EA guide to the Great Ouse system, on the river Little Ouse it says that navigation above a certain point is "only accessible by small portable craft such as dinghies and canoes". On the Lark it says "current head of navigation" at Judes ferry and yet there are EA placed signs at some of the wiers above this saying you are not allowed to canoe the weirs. Although I have paddled these rivers above the stated head of navigation, I will leave them for now until I hear back from the EA about exactly what they think my BCU license covers so that I might have to fill in the top sections as disputed access despite never having been challenged and signs suggesting access is allowed in places.
    I think this makes sense - it certainly shows that clarity is needed on access issues!
    Sam

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Pullen View Post
    That link isn't working for me. If anyone can provide direct links to any current agreements I'll add a link to the notes.

    If you hover over a river on the map the cursor will change - click and the notes are visible in a pop up.
    Keith

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    That link isn't working for me. If anyone can provide direct links to any current agreements I'll add a link to the notes.

    If you hover over a river on the map the cursor will change - click and the notes are visible in a pop up.
    Take two:
    http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/medi...id_Derwent.pdf

    Seems this board doesn't let me edit the BB code afterwards, but I think that's right now!

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    River Kennet and Kennet Navigation (but not K&A Canal) done.

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    I know some effort has already gone into generating the map so far but Google have added some cool features to their mapping software, take a look at this link I did for a recent club trip. It does use many of the features, but you can use standard icon to display get on and off point, wiers and rapids, parking, pub, cafe etc.

    It need a format so it is logical for people to add to, then when you have your own google account you can automatically save maps from one account to another. So you could have a map per river, with all details, with other maps showing web cams, etc. etc.
    The clever bit is then with a smart phone and a maps app you can then easily navigate from point to point, as well as exporting the information to and from a GPS.

    Comment?
    Just want to do more paddling

  16. #76

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    This looks like an excellent idea. As a newbie it looks like it will be a very useful guide to show where I can take my canoe.

    Could I suggest that if/when you get around to canals you give them another colour to distinguish them as in many places the river and canal run side by side and it could get confusing.

    Z

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zingmo View Post
    Could I suggest that if/when you get around to canals you give them another colour to distinguish them as in many places the river and canal run side by side and it could get confusing.
    It's not the colour that's the problem. Usually where a canal and river run side by side the canal is green and the river red. The problem is that on a national scale the lines are so close together that only the last one the system draws is visible. If you zoom in the two will show separately. When we get a bit of time we will experiment with reducing the line thickness.
    Keith

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    Default Distance adds clarity

    If you go to the output map and zoom out to the maximum allowed you get a very clear picture of the access situation in England and Wales.

    Can I thank everyone who is contributing to this project but especially the very many people that are making outstanding multiple entries..
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by waterfall man View Post
    I know some effort has already gone into generating the map so far but Google have added some cool features to their mapping software,
    The features are really great but they do not support what we are trying to do with this map and if we tried to add this level of detail get outs/ins weirs etc. the map would become unbelievably cluttered. Once we have captured the routes of river who knows what we can do next But for the moment lets concentrate on one thing at a time.
    Keith

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    I'd love to help with this, but where would I find out whether a river allows access or not? Is there a published government document or website?

    Unless stated otherwise, can't we assume we're allowed to paddle a river?

    PS. Please forgive my ignorance, for which I only have these two excuses: I'm still new to this and I grew up in South Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhofmann View Post
    I'd love to help with this, but where would I find out whether a river allows access or not?
    I'm afraid that the default position is that unless it's covered by the BCU licence you have to assume that access is disputed.

    Thanks for any help you can give.
    Keith

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    What about Lake access? I'm particularly thinking about the various Welsh Lynnes & Lakes where paddling is "banned", but there are plenty of others? I guess we could draw lines round the shores, not sure how that would look.
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  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    What about Lake access?
    There is so much potential but lets get the rivers done first.
    Keith

  24. Default Open Whitewater Map

    Hello everyone
    Can I draw your attention to the existing Open Whitewater Map for anyone who doesn't know about it. It's based on the www.openstreetmap.com map site and is an excellent way to record the finer detail that people are starting to talk about here - weirs, etc etc.
    Find it here:
    http://whitewater.quaker.eu.org/
    There's information about it here:
    http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/W...hitewater_Maps
    It's edited by drawing lines and points here:
    http://www.openstreetmap.org/

    While it could be levered to do what the access map does I like the simplicity of input to the access map. Openstreetmap takes a bit more learning to edit (although not any where near as much as it at first appears - once over the initial hurdles it's extremely simple).

    My reason for posting these links is to make sure that effort isn't duplicated - please if thinking of more detailed stuff (weirs, rapids, specific access points, etc) do consider using the openwhitewater map instead.

    Oh - and don't worry about the 'whitewater' bit if you like flat water - the beauty of openstreetmaps is its adaptability. Data is stored in the one place (on openstreetmap ) and projects like openwhitewater map choose what to display. This means the same data can be used for multiple users - with it displayed according to different preferences. If the existing 'tags' used for display by the whitewater map don't suit your purposes they can be added to - or a sister project could be created using some of the same tags but with additions. (For example - there's already a discussion about how to tag things on openstreetmap for marine navigation purposes - see here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/P...marine-tagging and at least one sea map displaying project here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenSeaMap / http://www.openseamap.org/index.php?id=18&L=1)

    I'm happy to help people get to grips with the openstreetmap interface if anyone wants this (but lets avoid hyjacking this thread - please start another and ask there).
    Last edited by WaterStillScaresMe; 26th-May-2011 at 11:32 AM. Reason: added marine info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    What about Lake access? I'm particularly thinking about the various Welsh Lynnes & Lakes where paddling is "banned", but there are plenty of others? I guess we could draw lines round the shores, not sure how that would look.

    How about just colouring the lake in? change it from a blue, to say a nice Green / Red lake?
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  26. #86
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    Default Problem with output map?

    The output map is not currently displaying on google chrome/IE, not been working since about 11.30am. Maybe I've overloaded it!
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    The output map is not currently displaying
    I'm working on it! Data is still being added to the database (last rivers loaded were Devil's Water by Mal and Trent by Brevan) so don't feel the need to stop entering data.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    I'm working on it! Data is still being added to the database (last rivers loaded were Devil's Water by Mal and Trent by Brevan) so don't feel the need to stop entering data.
    Except I can't see where the gaps are!

    I think i input the West Allen as Disputed when it should be an agreement - that's what I was trying to check when it failed on me...
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  29. #89
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    It's fixed.
    Keith

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    Great ta. Yes, I did get the colour wrong on the West Allen. SHould be yellow as part of the Tyne agreement.
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

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    Default Access map - tidal areas

    I think it would be useful to be able to show the extent of tidal reaches, as on some 'rivers' they extend quite some distance inland (e.g the Trent).
    A simple marker showing the tidal limit would be best, or if we had to highlight a length of river use blue.

    Brevan

    Tip: if you look at the map in satellite view and turn off the labels, the marked rivers show and you don't get confused by the roads / motorways.
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  32. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    Great ta. Yes, I did get the colour wrong on the West Allen. SHould be yellow as part of the Tyne agreement.
    Corrected. Tip: Don't use the word "River" in the name of the river. When I try to list them alphabetically they all appear under "R"
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    Corrected. Tip: Don't use the word "River" in the name of the river. When I try to list them alphabetically they all appear under "R"
    whoops think I've done that
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    whoops think I've done that
    It's OK - I've done it too but I've now edited all "Rivers" out
    Keith

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    OK, here's where we've now got to




    What is clear to me is that the map clearly demonstrates that large regions of the country have virtually NO "undisputed" access. We believe we can paddle there but the mandate is unclear. The map demonstrates, even at this early stage, that this is surely ridiculous. For example, even a non-paddler ought to be able to see that having almost no undisputed river access in Wales or the North of England cannot be right. Even were all the canals added this would not change significantly for these regions.

    A very useful tool, I think.
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  36. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    OK, here's where we've now got to
    ..... In less than a week!! That's the value of teamwork guys! Thanks

    I'm going to start experimenting with the colour codes a bit to distinguish between "meaningful" access agreements and "derisory" ones. I'm also going to add more of the canal system and use a different colour to indicate that these tend to be of a different character to natural rivers. It may work - it may not. Please feedback comments as we go.
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    Letís say our ultimate objective is an access situation similar to Scotland where a statutory right to access (might not be the correct legal terminology) is the norm for all rivers... then we have three classes of rivers in England and Wales;

    1. Rivers where a statutory right to navigate exists (green)
    2. Rivers where a rescindable agreement to navigate (from 1 to 365 days per year) exists (orange)
    3. Rivers where no agreement or statutory right exists or an agreement is disputed(red)

    Does that cover all cases?
    I agree that the ultimate aim should be free and unrestricted right of access to all rivers and waterways. I believe that requiring canoeists, swimmers or other non-powered craft users to buy permits restricts their right to open access and discourages use. Further more permits grant the recipient privilege, as we have seen with anglers and their rod licences, which they can use to restrict the rights of others.

    However if the map is to be used as a guide to where you can legally paddle now, then there could be a category 'Rivers where no statutory right exists but access is available via payment or permit', perhaps a purple colour?

    As I understand it, British Waterways grant access to their rivers and waterways provided you buy a permit, which I understand to cost only a few pounds per day for a canoe:
    http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/license-it

    These rivers and waterways could be considered purple?:
    http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/me..._addresses.pdf

    An area of interest to me: the Ripon canal to it's join with the River Ure and then downsteam to the River Ouse (Yorkshire) is all marked in red, but could be all purple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edb View Post
    An area of interest to me: the Ripon canal to it's join with the River Ure and then downsteam to the River Ouse (Yorkshire) is all marked in red
    This should be green - they are definitely public navigations covered by the BCU licence. The Ure upstram of here may be disputed (I'll do some research) so I may have to split this river into disputed and undisputed sections.
    Keith

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    Hi Ed,

    I input the Ure/Ouse based on info from web inc ukrgb. However I didn't check this one on the BW Map all the way down, so I think I am in error. If you're right about this, it should be green or yellow, depending on the accurate situation. If so, hopefully Keith can amend, or delete & I'd be happy to input it again.

    This shows how valuable local info can be, so please can you all share this & add your local waters. If you can't actually input it, point us in the right direction. Start & finish points, & access situation are what we need.

    I'm a little cautious about adding lots of different colours for each subtly different category as this reduces impact. The map is designed to instantly demonstrate the ridiculous situation, not to act as a guide to rivers, though maybe it could form the basis of a future guide. Based on your description those waterways would be green.

    Right, I'm having a rest from it for a few days paddling, before I get RSI!

    Mal
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    This should be green - they are definitely public navigations covered by the BCU licence. The Ure upstram of here may be disputed (I'll do some research) so I may have to split this river into disputed and undisputed sections.
    Thanks Keith, my bad! I'm on mobile only for a few days but happy to reinput next week.
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  41. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Grey View Post
    Thanks Keith, my bad! I'm on mobile only for a few days but happy to reinput next week.
    It's already sorted Mal. You've done a terrific job over the last few days and you can't input all those rivers without the odd mistake!! "The man who never made a mistake never made anything" and you have certainly made a terrific difference to this project with your input.

    Your few days paddling are very well deserved - enjoy them!
    Keith

  42. #102

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    Speaking as someone who makes his living making web sites intelligible to members of the public, I would caution against trying to too many different river colours.

    It will tend to make the map loose its power as a communication tool. Ideally there would just be two colours, red and green. Every one can instantly understand this. You can just about get away with one more colour. After that, the map's usefulness as a way of communicating the access situation plummets. I don't believe we are trying to build a paddler's guide. I think we are trying to communicate that only 4% (if that) of our rivers are available to us.

    The more detail you put in, the more you lay yourself open to distracting arguments about the precise status of individual sections of individual rivers.
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  43. #103
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    I agree that when presenting the data it makes sense to not muddle it, but this can be done by setting the different categories to the same colour, eg: yellow and red colour to both appear red. The more that is captured in the data entry, so long as it is relevant, the better we can make use the resulting map and data.

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    I think we can afford a bit of trial and error. If something doesn't work we can put it back as it was.

    I'm a bit concerned for instance that the main canal network will make it look as if we have lots of access. But no one would consider telling ramblers that they don't need access to the countryside because they can already walk along the A4!!

    So I'd like to experiment with allowing the viewer to consider such an arguement and then make a decision:-
    • The canal system is relevant access - make it green or
    • The canal system is not relevant access - make it invisible
    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    I'm a bit concerned for instance that the main canal network will make it look as if we have lots of access. But no one would consider telling ramblers that they don't need access to the countryside because they can already walk along the A4!!

    So I'd like to experiment with allowing the viewer to consider such an arguement and then make a decision:-
    • The canal system is relevant access - make it green or
    • The canal system is not relevant access - make it invisible
    Keith I noticed that there are some canals now on there and I would suggest leaving them off based on your previous comments.
    One in particular that stands out to me because it is local, is the Oxford canal. The river Cherwell runs parallel to it and I added it a couple of days ago as red. Unfortunately the canal now covers up the red line with a green one so it looks like we have more access than we actually have.
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  46. #106

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    It may be we have to include canals... otherwise we are setting ourselves up for the accusation that the map is not a true representation of the access situation. Given that even if you include canals we still have access to only 4% of the inland waterways... there are hundreds of rivers to mark up, yet.

    The same applies to the Norfolk Broads... lots of 'green' in Norfolk, but lots of 'red' too.

    On the subject of 'colours', the map could be set up so that a different set of colours is displayed depending on which url you used to access the map. You could have an 'access' view and a 'paddling guide' view, each with different levels of detail.

    I am sure Keith and his son have all these possibilities on their radar.
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  47. #107

    Default UK Rivers Guide

    If you are looking for some rivers to add to the map... there is great information here
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  48. #108
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    I think we have to show all the canals or the credibility of the map is reduced. It is up to us to make sure all the red water is found & entered. This will be a long job, but worth it.

    We will end up with some areas looking well served & others not. In time, though, the red will dominate.

    It would be useful to be able to hide all man made waterways easily though.

    On another note, & too complex for this map, it would be nice to show how few waterways are actually canoe friendly with portages built especially. Imagine if there were no styles for walkers...
    Covering as many malmiles as possible before being distracted by the pub!

    Paddle Points - where to paddle

  49. #109
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    Default Access map and kayak forums

    Has this idea been put on any other paddling forums ?
    this would widen the scope to include rivers that are more frequently done by kayakers.

  50. #110
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    I posted on UKRGB here. Only one response but we may be getting some help nevertheless.
    Keith

  51. #111
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    There seems to be an offset between the rivers shown in "map" view and satellite view with the result that if entered from map view and then viewed in satellite view the route of the river can appears some way away from the image of the river. The extent to which this happens seems to vary but for the sake of consistency I suggest we all input from satellite view and just use map view where the route of the river /canal in satellite view is unclear.
    Keith

  52. #112
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    Chelmer and Blackwater Navigation added, even clicked the correct access button this time
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  53. #113
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    River Wid added another red above the green line

    You may be able to paddle further up the river, if any locals could check?
    Last edited by joe.ford; 28th-May-2011 at 06:37 PM.
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  54. #114
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    Chelmer Added

    Does anyone else find themselves losing the river in woods, finding it again, following it for about 2 miles only to discover it was a ditch and the real river went the other way?
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  55. #115
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    Colne added
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  56. #116
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    There has been a bit of duplication tonight guys! 3 rivers that were already there were added again. If in doubt hover the mouse over the river on the map and the cursor will change - click and the name of the river (canal) will pop up.
    Keith

  57. #117

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    Mind you, if we call ourselves the "Rivers Access Campaign", is a canal a river?
    Doug Dew
    "The best is yet to come" My Father


  58. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdew99 View Post
    Mind you, if we call ourselves the "Rivers Access Campaign", is a canal a river?
    they are around here

    I've just had a little thought, when we click to have the river / navigation that nice green colour. Does this include places where you have to pay to use it? (places that aren't covered by EA BCU license)

    (this made sense at time of publishing. Just got up brain not yet functioning properly)
    Last edited by joe.ford; 29th-May-2011 at 09:16 AM.
    SF Peterborough 14'
    weighs 7 Stone! 44.5kg
    Bell Yellowstone (so light)

  59. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe.ford View Post
    they are around hereDoes this include places where you have to pay to use it? (places that aren't covered by EA BCU license)
    The key issue is do we have a right to use it. If it's a navigation established by Parliament (for which we pay a licence to maintain it) that should be green. The owners can't exclude us on a whim just because they have changed their mind or had a better offer!
    Keith

  60. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
    I posted on UKRGB here. Only one response but we may be getting some help nevertheless.
    Well I put my update on having read about it there, though given I put a section in green which had already been added in red (and for which right of navigation may not be 100% undisputed) I may just be causing more trouble!

    Chris

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