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Thread: Making a Symmetrical Clip-On Rudder

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    Default Making a Symmetrical Clip-On Rudder

    While sorting out the garage today following last weeks Expedition Rig installation, I came across my Enterprise rudder, tiller & tiller extension and wondered if it would be possible to make it fit the rear of my canoe, without drilling anything to the skin of the canoe.

    While I haven't given up on learning the skills of paddle sailing, I am familiar with using a rudder and think that I might get more from canoe sailing if I had one.

    In the Canoe & Kayak Handbook, I notice that on page 239 is a clip-on rudder that is asymmetrically positioned as apposed to the SD side-mounted rudder, which also interests me. The asymmetric design in the book uses some nicely shaped wood to hook under the stern and is pulled back against the hull using straps, but the design is far too complicated for me to reproduce, so something simple is called for.

    If I could find a way to use my existing rudder, my initial thoughts would be to find a way to attach it to the stern so that it is centrally positioned. (Asymmetric)

    Using my motor mount idea, see below, I feel that it would be possible to attach a triangular sheet of marine ply across the top of the canoe, with perhaps a hook near the rear, which also pulls down under the grab handle.



    Then from this section of ply, build a frame that can support a rear vertical piece of timber, that supports the pintle & gudgeon, which will hold the rudder stock securely. See an idea of what I mean below.



    Has anyone ever tried anything like this and can you see any loading issues? Perhaps I would need to use the Corelite skin of the canoe to also take some load, not sure.

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    I like your idea. One way to attach to the canoe with ease is to use industrial conduit clamps. These are U bolts with a casting that can grab an "I" beam. You can see how we use these to make a catamaran.
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    Could you double bend a wide metal strap into a ґ shape. Attaching this to the underside of the stern plate. Positioned so that the plate hooks underneath the grab handle. You could screw in a hook on either side of the plate and sling a bungy round the stern, from one hook to the other.

    TGB
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    Some good ideas, thanks.
    I like the idea of a bungy, though I am wondering if it will keep things in place with the forces applied to it. I see where your going with the bent strap though.

    Dr Joe's clamp system is simplicity for attaching anything to gunwales. I must remember this and while clearly very strong, I am not sure it is that elegant for a rudder mount, though something on a smaller scale would be fine.

    Thinking about the forces here, the rudder will be trying to push the stern port or starboard, but I have a feeling that there is also a twisting force, especially when the canoe is leaning to one side or another!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    ...
    I like the idea of a bungy, though I am wondering if it will keep things in place with the forces applied to it. I see where your going with the bent strap though...
    I was thinking the stern plate would slide under, moving towards the canoe end. So any forward motion the canoe made, would serve to push the plate further home. For sideways forces, perhaps two bent straps instead, positiond at a V-angle and snugly fitting against the gunwales. The bungy is just there to apply a pulling force, for when the hull is not moving forward. Perhaps also a bit of cut sleep mat glued to the straps, to prevent knocking noises and cushion the fit.

    TGB
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    May all your winds be gentle. And for ww - May it rain the night before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGB View Post
    I was thinking the stern plate would slide under, moving towards the canoe end. So any forward motion the canoe made, would serve to push the plate further home. For sideways forces, perhaps two bent straps instead, positiond at a V-angle and snugly fitting against the gunwales. The bungy is just there to apply a pulling force, for when the hull is not moving forward. Perhaps also a bit of cut sleep mat glued to the straps, to prevent knocking noises and cushion the fit.

    TGB
    Oh I see, that makes a lot more sense. What could I used to make a stern plate?
    I have just come back from the DIY shop looking for some materials, but found it difficult. I thought of some marine ply for the top, but all they had was external ply (Which will do I guess) but buying sheets 10ft long and 45 a go, hmm! I'll pop into the local timber shop for a few off cuts me thinks.
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 9th-April-2011 at 05:44 PM.

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    Yep. I know what you mean. One thinks, "Yes, they'll have what I need at the DIY place" only to find it in a quantity too great for the proposed project, in packs of four, when you need five or far too expensive. The next day you pop down to the local, 'been there for 80 years' with sales staff of a similar age and they have what you need. In seven different colours, three different materials, four construction types and they'll cut or supply it in any quantity you want. Heck, they'll even wrap it the way you want and point out any pitfalls others have had with similar projects.

    TGB
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    May all your winds be gentle. And for ww - May it rain the night before.

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    Okay, just bought this:



    I gave up trying to mount my Enterprise rudder on the basis that the pintel was above the tiller as there is a hole in the Enterprise transum for the tiller to slide through. This would make things way too complicated. 15 and I was sorted with this lot.
    I am going to try an make something this week, so I can test it at Rutland Water.

    I am planning to cut a square hole in the stock so the tiller can also mount transversely, but also leave the original slot to mount the tiller in the current way.

    I may not have enough time to make something, but I'll try.

    I may end up making a side mounted rudder, but this is my last resort.

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    Making a lash on rudder system may work but i havent seen it done well except by Keith. He made a fibreglass shoe that was moulded to the rear of his canoe (hence a perfect fit) and had standard rudder fittings fastened to that. I have always used purpose made eye bolt fittings fastened through the end of the canoe and these are less obtrusive and very strong and rigid. Dont underestimte the force that the rudder can generate in strong winds when the canoe is doing 7 knots in big waves. I have seen many lash ups come adrift just when the going got tough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Dont underestimate the force that the rudder can generate in strong winds when the canoe is doing 7 knots in big waves. I have seen many lash ups come adrift just when the going got tough.
    You only need to try paddle steering in stronger winds to feel some of the force that'd pass through a rudder assembly (although I imagine the force would be even greater with a rudder due to the increased area).
    Wouldn't a rudder from a dinghy be a bit big anyway? I suppose you could cut the blade down a bit if required.

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    Stage one built. Varnish still to be applied, but want to get the rudder fittings in place first and drill the 3-holes in the top for the mounting bolts. It's getting there.






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    Well I finished it off this morning 1-hour before I set off to Rutland Water to meet many other sailing folk.

    I have uploaded a short clip of it in action today (See below) and I am sure there will be a few photos coming as quite a lot of photos were taken by others from their canoes, so more to follow.

    It works well. The mount that holds the rudder to the canoe is perhaps over engineered. It's not going anywhere and will support the rudder in all conditions. I can even carry the aft end of the canoe by holding the front edge of the mount or transum as I like to call it, though not technically correct! Okay, it's not very elegent and a little industrial if I'm honest, but the difficulty is making it strong enough so that it doesn't fall apart when you need it most. I might remove some of the wood on the sides by cutting a pattern into it, which will make it lighter as well as this together with the rudder must weigh at least 5kgs!

    I like the idea that it only takes a few minutes to fit and when it is removed, the only sign that anything was ever there is a single hole through the centre of the carrying handle/ end deck. Under the forward edge of the mount is the bracket I use on my motor mount, which simply sits under the gunwales and two bolts pull it up clamping the mount down to the gunwales, with one bolt further back pulling down through the end deck as just mentioned. 3-bolts in total.

    The rudder is the correct size also. There is sufficient depth under the water , yet the rudder can be turned in the stock and tied up out of the water.

    The only thing I am not sure about is the tiller and tiller extension. In a narrow canoe, it can be a little clumsy to operate until you get out to one side, preferably sitting on the gunwales. I may change the setup slightly by adding a short section of tubing that runs out to the side of the rudder with a joint and a long aluminium tube type tiller to the centre seat, thus a push/pull operation to control the rudder.

    All in all, I am happy with the concept and would rather have something like this than drilling holes through the stern of the canoe to mount some gudgeons!


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    Wouldn't a rudder from a dinghy be a bit big anyway? I suppose you could cut the blade down a bit if required
    .
    The rudder does look a bit big but in practice the high end on the canoe holds it up higher than a dinghy transom so only half the rudder blade is in the water. It proved very effective though and Chris was having no difficulty keeping the canoe tracking in a straight line. I think that when he tries a push pull tiller he will find it even easier. Most OCSG members use this method and even some die hard dinghy sailors have eventually given in sailing with conventional tillers in favour of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    .
    I think that when he tries a push pull tiller he will find it even easier. Most OCSG members use this method and even some die hard dinghy sailors have eventually given in sailing with conventional tillers in favour of it.
    It makes total sense in a craft as narrow as a canoe.

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    I know I haven't tried the push/ pull rudder system before so it's difficult to comment on how I might get along with it, but while researching which side of the canoe to put it along, I came across a number of comments online from people that have had difficulties getting used to using the system. One person even put two push/ pull tillers down each side of the canoe so it was more instinctive (Apparently) for each tack.

    Clearly what is instictive is using the standard tiller in the conventional way on wider boats and then my thoughts turned to looking for another way around the problem.

    Essentially, the canoe is too narrow to use a long tiller because your arms aren't long enough to push the tiller over and get enough deflection on the rudder.
    It then occured to me that by putting a fork on the end of the tiller arm, this problem could be resolved. See image below. Has anyone ever seen something like this before?


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    I don't see why that wouldn't work but it might be a bit clunky and heavy. I think I'd be tempted to try the push-pull solution first. I'm a bit mystified why a push pull tiller wouldn't be intuitive but maybe that's just me.
    On a slightly different (but not totally O/T ) note, I noticed that Gailainne seemed happiest sitting in the bottom of his canoe facing forwards while sailing it at the weekend (with a push-pull tiller). I find that I prefer to sit sideways facing to the leeward side of the canoe (preferably on the seat but sometimes in the bottom of the canoe). I think this is just because that's the way I've always sat in a dinghy but also it allows me to use my weight to balance the canoe. I imagine when I get a rudder I'll continue to do this (or maybe do it even more as I'll be able to sit further to windward then). Any thoughts on this anyone?

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    I find that I prefer to sit sideways facing to the leeward side of the canoe (preferably on the seat but sometimes in the bottom of the canoe). I think this is just because that's the way I've always sat in a dinghy but also it allows me to use my weight to balance the canoe. I imagine when I get a rudder I'll continue to do this
    Hi Chris, this is how I also prefer to sit. I was lucky enough to sit out on the gunwales last weekend for a couple of tacks and it just seems so right to me. I am concerned that I will not be able to do this with the push/pull tiller system!

    I would like to try a longer tiller on my rudder before I pull the tiller off completely and modify it for a push/ pull system. I think I will go for a long single tiller first, which stops about a foot or two behind me and a short 3-foot tiller extension to allow me to get out onto the gunwales in stronger winds! I'll buy a piece of pine to try the theory out first and if I'm happy with it, I get a nice piece of ash. There is something sedate about sitting in the bottom of a canoe pushing and pulling a tiller handle whereas I would like to get up onto the gunwales and have some fun chucking the canoe about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Hi Chris, this is how I also prefer to sit. I was lucky enough to sit out on the gunwales last weekend for a couple of tacks and it just seems so right to me. I am concerned that I will not be able to do this with the push/pull tiller system!

    I would like to try a longer tiller on my rudder before I pull the tiller off completely and modify it for a push/ pull system. I think I will go for a long single tiller first, which stops about a foot or two behind me and a short 3-foot tiller extension to allow me to get out onto the gunwales in stronger winds! I'll buy a piece of pine to try the theory out first and if I'm happy with it, I get a nice piece of ash. There is something sedate about sitting in the bottom of a canoe pushing and pulling a tiller handle whereas I would like to get up onto the gunwales and have some fun chucking the canoe about.
    So it's not just me then! I can't see any reason why you couldn't sit up on the gunwales using a push-pull tiller though (in fact I think it's designed to allow this). I think that sitting in the bottom might be a confidence thing, Gailainne is new to sailing and he has a relatively big and lively rig so the extra stability of sitting low is probably welcome. I find it cramped and uncomfortable and with my sailing backwards set up the seat is in just the right place for me to use while sailing. That said my one and only capsize came while sitting on the seat and I have to drop down off it when the wind picks up to facilitate easier paddle steering (which is exactly when I'd prefer to be able to sit out and balance the boat). Rudder heading my way soon methinks.

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    While it's good to know how to steer with the paddle and I've got that down okay in light winds, using a rudder is more familiar to me and inspires more confidence not to mention greater enjoyment, for me anyway.

    I think my centre seat is somewhere near your front seat in your backwards sailing mode and like you, it feels about right to use the seat during sailing. It's then only a few inches up to hop from the seat to the gunwales!

    Edit. Think about a cleat too Chris!

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    I wonder if my inspiration for buying the Expedition Rig may be a bit different from yours though Chris? I bought it with a view to using it on trips on scottish lochs (probably paddling trips in the company of other paddlers), in case I'm on a trip and it gets windy. The sailing for enjoyment only thing was a secondary consideration for me (although it's something that I can feel exerting a stronger pull as time goes on). I fully intend to get a rudder (probably SD side mount) and pivoting leeboard (again SD) but I don't think I'll use them on multi day trips (unless those trips are solely in the company of other canoe sailors). With that in mind I intend to continue working on the paddle steering and seeing if I can become more competent at it.
    I tried using a leash on the paddle on my trip last weekend and discarded it almost immediately. It was awkward and the leash was in my way all the time and tangled with the sheet a lot. Next thing I'll try is a thwart tied to the rear of the seat to lever against. I can happily paddle steer with one hand in light wind but I need something to push against in stronger wind and the thwart may be the answer.
    I can totally see how steering with a rudder would be a more enjoyable experience though (and probably a lot more effective as well).

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    You are probably right Chris. I want the full sailing experience on one weekend and want the full paddling experience with as little in the way of sailing bits on the canoe the next weekend!

    The Expedition rig seemed big enough for what I need and as I demonstrated to Dave last weekend, I can de-rig everything and drive off 20-mins after coming off the water with the mast, sail and spars put inside the car. Something I couldn't do with a Bermudan, though one day I might end up with a Bermudan anyway.

    If I'm away paddling on a longish trip, like you, I can take the rig and just chuck it in the canoe out of the way, only to be put up when the conditions are right and I will paddle steer.

    The nice thing about this setup is that it is so flexible. Clip everything on or off, mix and match as and when the need arises. I think SD has got it just about right in my opinion.
    If I hadn't run out of money on buying the canoe and all the other bits, I might have gone for the side mounted rudder too. It looks like a good bit of kit, but I felt that I had a few days to make something myself, hence the symmetrical home made rudder was born and it kind of works too!

    I've not tried the leash, but can see that it could be a problem. Is it easier with more experience? Perhaps someone with more paddling experience could share their thoughts on using a leash? Perhaps you could just carry a spare paddle like I do? Our paddles are made from wood and float, so it's just when you drop it in the water that you have no control until you get it back. A spare paddle would get around this problem.

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    The mix and match thing is spot on for me as well Chris, I really like Gailainne's bermudan but the mast is absolutely huge and I wouldn't have anywhere to store the rig when I wasn't using it. I also kind of prefer the look of the lugsail, it looks better suited to a traditional craft like a canoe to my eyes.
    The big Exped Rig ticks all the boxes for me. I'd have been happy to pay a bit more for reefing ability but that's a minor point.
    The paddle leash was to use as a pivot for steering mainly and not to prevent me losing the paddle (I always carry a spare anyway) but it proved impractical (and possibly a bit dangerous, it was a bit of a tangle hazard) so I binned it almost immediately.

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    A sailing instructor colleague at work suggested a pivot on the tiller arm, for my case it was to stop the tiller interfering with the bridle, so rather than one long piece its split in two, I'm not sure its required for my set up, but it may work for yours Chris. Found a photo
    http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/pho...6frensham4.jpg
    Any good?

    On the sitting position, I may get more adventurous once the outriggers are fitted I quite like the sitting forward position, its natural for me, the same instructor friend suggested a sliding seat affair, that extended out either side, I think I may learn to sail first

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    Chris

    There's nothing to stop you having the best of both worlds, with a Gunter rig
    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/...bj/2/index.cfm

    None of the spar sections are longer than what you have atm, with a batwing sail design you could have significant sail surface area. I still want to make one of these rigs at some point, probably after I stop doing this so often

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    I think the tiller in that picture is pretty much what Chris has now Stephen. That's the traditional set up in a sailing dinghy but I'd think that it might not work as well as your existing (push-pull) set up in a narrow craft like a canoe. (Note where the guy is sitting in that dinghy btw. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    Chris

    There's nothing to stop you having the best of both worlds, with a Gunter rig
    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/...bj/2/index.cfm

    None of the spar sections are longer than what you have atm, with a batwing sail design you could have significant sail surface area. I still want to make one of these rigs at some point, probably after I stop doing this so often
    That's the set up used so successfully in the Mirror dinghy (so that the mast wasn't too long for storing and transporting). Afaik there is a slight loss in performance over a bermudan but not much.
    I didn't think you'd had a moment yet?

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    I would recommend trying the push pull tiller first, Chris. It will feel odd for a couple of hours and then it will become second nature. The rudder will probably have to be put over at about 60 degrees to perform a quick tack, and if a long conventional tiller is used you would have to push it away from you a very long way to acheive this. In stronger winds when you get used to sitting on the upwind gunwale the last thing you will want to do is lean well over to leeward to put the tiller over. The push pull tiller will work just as well whether sitting on the floor facing forwards, sitting in the middle of the canoe on a seat or sitting out sideways on the gunwale. Oceanic, who is quite lightweight compared to me, often leans right out horizontally using toe straps in strong winds and still controls his rudder with a push pull tiller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurassic View Post
    That's the set up used so successfully in the Mirror dinghy (so that the mast wasn't too long for storing and transporting). Afaik there is a slight loss in performance over a bermudan but not much.
    I didn't think you'd had a moment yet?
    Its coming tho, almost a couple of times at the weekend, I'm not concerned about capsizing, its the time it will take to bail the canoe out afterwards that I'm dreading.

    On the push pull tiller I found I would pull or push the wrong way, and have to quickly correct, that was my first time using it, but even on the Sunday, I was still turning the boat the wrong way, I'm sure it will become instinctive, but I still have to pause and think about it atm.

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    The gunter is a nice looking rig but is not as handy as the bermudan. The bermudan rolls around the mast to stow the rig which keeps it crease free and in good condition. The gunter lowers into the canoe and does not stow very neatly and creases the sail. The bermudan is very quick to reef in many small steps by rolling around the mast. It probably has 10 reefs from 44 sqft down to 10sq ft and the sail sets well on all of them. The gunter will slab reef which takes a lot longer to do and scrunches the sail up and you will only get one or two different sail areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    The gunter is a nice looking rig but is not as handy as the bermudan. The bermudan rolls around the mast to stow the rig which keeps it crease free and in good condition. The gunter lowers into the canoe and does not stow very neatly and creases the sail. The bermudan is very quick to reef in many small steps by rolling around the mast. It probably has 10 reefs from 44 sqft down to 10sq ft and the sail sets well on all of them. The gunter will slab reef which takes a lot longer to do and scrunches the sail up and you will only get one or two different sail areas.
    Totally agree on the bermudan, but man its a big rig, when I loaded it for the first time on my car, I couldn't fit it inside/under the canoe, it had to be tied in beside it. I'm going to start a new thread on the Bermudan, for tweaking it, even after that first trip I have things I would like to change, share with others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    I'm going to start a new thread on the Bermudan, for tweaking it, even after that first trip I have things I would like to change, share with others.
    What about sawing ten feet off the top?

    On a more serious note, this pic shows just how much difference there is between the height of the Expedition and Bermudan rigs.

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    Quite a large difference then! Only 9sq ft of sail area when fully deployed also!
    Maybe the next development could be a 44 sq ft Expedition rig Dave?
    Or perhaps a 55 sq ft Expedition rig so the Expedition rig so it is no longer the baby rig on the block!!!

    I love the idea of having all that sail area for such a compact setup, though I can see the reefing benefits of the Bermudan.

    If I went for a Bermudan though, it would be the larger 5 sq/m version and I fit a pivoting leeboard with a couple of outriggers and do it properly.

    Though I would probably dig Anona out of the garage and go for 113 sq ft if I going to start messing about with long masts and less convenience.

    We all want different things from our canoes and right now, at this precise moment in time, I'm happy with what I have. There are always faster boats with bigger sails, better hulls, better paddles and better places to sail (That's aimed at those living near Loch Lomand ) and there will be people reading this thread with their umbrellas and downwind sails, but what's important is that we are happy.

    Tinkering is fun, falling in not so much, sharing our tales of tinkering, our experiences, knowledge & skills is all great, but most of all, my thanks goes to those people that organise meets, hang around this forum to advise others and those that produce some excellent kit for other enthusiasts that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. That is what has impressed me so much. The people here that make this hobby so adictive.

    My wife and kids have asked me what I fancy doing this coming bank holiday weekend! Um..... let me think, Ferry Meadows, Rutland or Grafham are nice at this time of year!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    A sailing instructor colleague at work suggested a pivot on the tiller arm, for my case it was to stop the tiller interfering with the bridle, so rather than one long piece its split in two, I'm not sure its required for my set up, but it may work for yours Chris. Found a photo
    http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/pho...6frensham4.jpg
    Any good?
    Thanks. This is effectively what I have on my Enterprise and similar to what I have have on my canoe right now, though the tiller is only around 3 feet long and my telescopic tiller extension is fully extended to about 4 or 5 feet, which makes it tricky unless you sit out on the gunwales.

    My hesitation with the push/pull system is that on one tack, it will behave identically to the typical tiller design and on the other tack, everything will be backwards!!!
    When you shooting along, unreefed, out on the gunwales above freezing cold water, without a drysuit and no side mounted airbags, one momentary lack of concentration only has one outcome!

    Last year, I rode my motorcycle on a long trip to Holland with a frozen shoulder. In some pain, I wondered if I could hold the throttle open using my left hand instead of my right and I quickly gave up on that idea, pulled in at the next service station and took some more pain killers so I could continue. I am not very good at patting my head and rubbing my belly at the same time either!!!

    As you say Dave, it is possibly the best option to have a push/ pull system, but I am not in a hurry to learn these new skills without a drysuit at the moment, but the water is starting to warm up nicely.

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    Just to complete the thread for anyone following it, here is a photo of the clip-on rudder in use.



    While it has been slightly over-engineered and I am toying with the idea of cutting some of the sides out (Maybe drilling some 3" holes in them) to lighten the load while maintaining much of the strength, the project of attaching a rudder was a success.

    The rudder assembly takes a minute or two to attach/ remove and the canoe looks original without it.

    The cost of the rear deck assembly was around 15 for the plywood, plus a day in the garage.

    The rudder, stock, tiller & tiller extension was 15 from ebay and I had to buy a gudgeon & pintle from the sailing shop for a fiver!

    Total cost was 35.

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    Default Tillers and gunters

    "Conventional" tillers with extensions have been tried many times on canoes and in my view are rather clumsy and impractical for the reasons already outlined. I am one of those "diehard dinghy sailors" who railed against 'converting' to a push-pull tiller for over 15 years, concerned that all my familiar, conditioned reflexes for controlling a boat, especially in lively conditions, would be wasted - but after just a few sessions of push-pull confusion I relearnt the appropriate corrective actions and now I'm totally at home with it all. So bite the bullet guys!

    On gunters - I used a gunter for many years, liking the shorter spar lengths and utilising my poling pole -half for the yard and half for the boom. I had three rows of reefing points in one of my sails and, once rigged, any of the four different sail areas worked well (18 > 55 sqft). But the key words are "once rigged" - to reef or unreef, the yard had to be lowered, the halyard attachment point moved (a stoppered clove hitch onto the yard), tack and clew changed (using hooks for speed) and reefing points either tied or untied before rehoisting. Pretty high in the faffing quotient! There were certain times and conditions where setting a sea anchor to lie head to wind while doing this was neccessary - even more faffing!! Bermudans can be roller reefed/unreefed underway under much better control in my view.

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    Looking at the video footage taken yesterday and watching me struggle with the tiller and the sheet, I am of the opinion that I need to move to the push/pull system, at least a modifcation that allows me to try it out, but revert back if I can't get on with it.

    As far as reefing goes. I can't see a lot of point trying to reef the Expedition Rig as the sail area isn't big enough to worry about, in my humble opinion. If it gets too much, release the sheet and spill some air. If it gets way too breezy for that, drop the sail and paddle.

    I guess the main difference is that where I sail. It's only half a mile back to the clubhouse, unlike Chris who could be 8-miles back or more!

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    Hmm, regarding the reefing thing, I can see where you're coming from Chris. I've not needed to reef yet, although I did once drop the sail and paddle across the wind (it was much too strong to paddle into) due to my lack of experience and caution on my first trip. That was still probably the strongest wind I've sailed in (I'd estimate it was gusting to around 20mph) and it felt okay but I was worried about the consequences of capsizing as I had a fully laden boat and hadn't fitted side buoyancy at that point and I was alone in the middle of Loch Lomond. I see the ability to reef the expedition rig as a safety net that I'd hope not to have to use (like side airbags really). It'd just be reassuring to know that the facility was there if I really had my back to the wall. When paddle steering I've frequently had to start to luff the sail to spill wind in gusts. This is due to not being able to sit out on the gunwale and paddle steer at the same time and using a rudder would negate the problem to a large extent.
    I'm going to hopefully have a chat with Dave S at Loch ken this weekend regarding modifying my sail to include reefing points.

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    This is why I suggested that a reefing option might be more appropriate for you Chris than for myself. You could find yourself within the shelter of the islands in Loch Lomond, wondering how on earth you are to get back to Duck Bay. Paddleing would be a nightmare and sailing in 20+ mph winds could be tricky with the full sail up. Having the option to stop on an island and reef makes sense. Also, as you say a rudder is a big help. Someone with great paddling skills like Greg could possible cope without a rudder, but I wouldn't fancy it. I have had my nightmare experience without a rudder thank you!

    In response to your post on the other thread about the camera mount. Thanks for that. Worth looking into. I dismantled an old tripod and secured the head to a strip of wood, which I hooked under the bungies on the buoyancy wedges. It kind of worked, though it was a bit low and much of the footage is of my back! (Just uploading it to Youtube while I type this) You can see the mount on one shot when I am holding the camera.

    I also show a bit where the leeboard floats up when running. Later I steer to leeward slightly and film it lifting and then turn to windward again and it sinks with a clunk as it takes up position again. What I love about the leeboard is the fact that it helps to push the canoe windward! No other centreboard or keel does this that I know of and it is a concept that is excellent. The pivoting leeboard will be less efficient as it is designed to work in both directions/ both tacks. What I dislike about it is the extra work required during a tack or when it floats up on a run. Another thing that is un-nerving is when it snaps into position and the whole canoe shakes hard. This often happens in a fast tack because the sail has already moved across before you have got the leeboard into the water! The sail is being pushed to leeward, you are leaning across to the leeward side (So out of position!) to lower the leeboard and suddenly it slams against the hull, the canoe leans over even harder and you scramble back to the windward side with one hand on the tiller extension and the other on the sheet! It all happens too quickly for my liking! If you try to do a slow tack and give yourself more time, the sodding canoe stalls into wind and you are reaching for your paddle to get the bow round!!!

    I wondererd if buying a second leeboard might be an idea. Mount them on each side in a pivoting style with a connecting arm/ bellcrank. When one is down, the other is up and so on. Then I have to conceed that the idea was to have a small sail and leeboard for the odd day sailing the canoe. If I wanted a full blown sailing canoe, I could have just bought a purpose built Shearwater and have done with it. I just need to modify my rudder to a push/ pull system and I'm done I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    This is why I suggested that a reefing option might be more appropriate for you Chris than for myself. You could find yourself within the shelter of the islands in Loch Lomond, wondering how on earth you are to get back to Duck Bay. Paddleing would be a nightmare and sailing in 20+ mph winds could be tricky with the full sail up. Having the option to stop on an island and reef makes sense. Also, as you say a rudder is a big help. Someone with great paddling skills like Greg could possible cope without a rudder, but I wouldn't fancy it. I have had my nightmare experience without a rudder thank you!

    In response to your post on the other thread about the camera mount. Thanks for that. Worth looking into. I dismantled an old tripod and secured the head to a strip of wood, which I hooked under the bungies on the buoyancy wedges. It kind of worked, though it was a bit low and much of the footage is of my back! (Just uploading it to Youtube while I type this) You can see the mount on one shot when I am holding the camera.

    I also show a bit where the leeboard floats up when running. Later I steer to leeward slightly and film it lifting and then turn to windward again and it sinks with a clunk as it takes up position again. What I love about the leeboard is the fact that it helps to push the canoe windward! No other centreboard or keel does this that I know of and it is a concept that is excellent. The pivoting leeboard will be less efficient as it is designed to work in both directions/ both tacks. What I dislike about it is the extra work required during a tack or when it floats up on a run. Another thing that is un-nerving is when it snaps into position and the whole canoe shakes hard. This often happens in a fast tack because the sail has already moved across before you have got the leeboard into the water! The sail is being pushed to leeward, you are leaning across to the leeward side (So out of position!) to lower the leeboard and suddenly it slams against the hull, the canoe leans over even harder and you scramble back to the windward side with one hand on the tiller extension and the other on the sheet! It all happens too quickly for my liking! If you try to do a slow tack and give yourself more time, the sodding canoe stalls into wind and you are reaching for your paddle to get the bow round!!!

    I wondererd if buying a second leeboard might be an idea. Mount them on each side in a pivoting style with a connecting arm/ bellcrank. When one is down, the other is up and so on. Then I have to conceed that the idea was to have a small sail and leeboard for the odd day sailing the canoe. If I wanted a full blown sailing canoe, I could have just bought a purpose built Shearwater and have done with it. I just need to modify my rudder to a push/ pull system and I'm done I think.
    Chris,I know exactly what you mean about the leeboard biting when you've just gone about, I've had a few nervy moments doing that but I think you get used to it. I've found that I can just stick the leeboard in roughly the right spot and leave it while I get my weight back in the right place and the leeway the canoe's making pushes the leeboard into place. It still seats itself with a thump (and causes the canoe to heel as well in stronger winds) but it's fine if you're ready for it. I've also had the canoe going sideways with the leeboard in position when I've been in a lull and then the wind picks up (Gailainne witnessed this happening on our recent trip and shouted at me to tell me how much ground I was losing downwind!) I've now learned that a paddle stroke has the canoe moving forwards again when this happens (probably bearing away aggressively would work too).
    I've been really impressed with how well I can get the canoe to point into the wind (it's exceeded my most optimistic expectations in this respect) and it's probably down to the effect you're speaking of.
    I have a really nice but chronically underused motorbike sitting in my shed whose sale would finance a Shearwater! I'm going to unSORN the bike next week and see how much I use it over the next month or so before making a decision what to do.
    I'm looking forwards to watching your video footage, it's really interesting to see other canoes in action.

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    I'm looking forwards to watching your video footage, it's really interesting to see other canoes in action.
    It's taking ages. I started uploading it earlier before we went out (Walk around Ferry Meadows) and came back to find the upload failed!! Grr.

    Let me tell you something that made me grin. You know how competetive I am right, no? Well now you do! I was over by the church thingy on Rutland Water (Close to the cafe we stopped for lunch a few weekends ago) and had just tacked on my way back to the canoe club. I was hoping I could make it on a single tack, but suspected that I might have to make another tack later. A few minutes later, one of those sailing day boats passed me with large main sail & jib, heading in the same direction! My speed was about two thirds his speed! I noticed that while we were both close hauled, he was drifting down wind more than I and each time the wind direction shifted, I adjusted my direction to gain a little more ground upwind. I managed to sail straight into the mouth of the marina and passed him as he had to make two further tacks to come in behind me!! He he. As my daughter often says "Slow & steady wins the race" Actually, as I tried to tell my family about this earlier, they didn't seem that interested! What is it with some people?

    Don't be quick to sell your bike. I use mine to keep my full no-claims bonus going and re-insure it every two years. One day when I need it again, I'll be glad I did.

    PS. Know why my upload failed. It was 8 seconds longer than 10-mins long, so I croped the last 10-seconds off it and it's flying in now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    Let me tell you something that made me grin. You know how competetive I am right, no? Well now you do! I was over by the church thingy on Rutland Water (Close to the cafe we stopped for lunch a few weekends ago) and had just tacked on my way back to the canoe club. I was hoping I could make it on a single tack, but suspected that I might have to make another tack later. A few minutes later, one of those sailing day boats passed me with large main sail & jib, heading in the same direction! My speed was about two thirds his speed! I noticed that while we were both close hauled, he was drifting down wind more than I and each time the wind direction shifted, I adjusted my direction to gain a little more ground upwind. I managed to sail straight into the mouth of the marina and passed him as he had to make two further tacks to come in behind me!! He he. As my daughter often says "Slow & steady wins the race" Actually, as I tried to tell my family about this earlier, they didn't seem that interested! What is it with some people?

    Don't be quick to sell your bike. I use mine to keep my full no-claims bonus going and re-insure it every two years. One day when I need it again, I'll be glad I did.
    I'm not a super competetive person but I would definitely enjoy a challenge like that.
    My current bike (KTM 690) was bought as I wasn't using my last bike (VTEC VFR) much and for a while it worked but last year I only did 500 miles on it and I reckon if that trend continues I'd be better off putting the money into something I'd get more use from (like a Shearwater or a new sea kayak). That said, my mate's just swopped his Gixxer for a supermoto so I now have someone to ride with on wiggly little backroads that are my bikes natural terrain. Maybe it'll get more use this season?

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    Not that i'm biased, but you will be able to try a Shearwater at the weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves View Post
    not that i'm biased
    lol :d

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamerpoint View Post
    .......
    I wondererd if buying a second leeboard might be an idea. Mount them on each side in a pivoting style with a connecting arm/ bellcrank. When one is down, the other is up and so on....
    Chris and I had a discussion about a double leeboard, with a crank, then I thought about it some more, they would have to be at 90 deg to each other, it would mean one leeboard would be along the gunnel, in the way of your paddle, also in shallow water to rotate both clear, one would be sticking straight up, a metre in the air. The crank would still work, they just have to independent of each other, but the handles provide that, shrug, I don't think its worth the engineering involved.

    Stephen

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    Default Eureka!

    Never mind twin cranked leeboards, what about hydrofoil outriggers. Imagine an outrigger beam with a hydrofoil on each end that would create lift when submerged, lighter and less bulky than an outrigger. Right I'm off to build a square wheel now, it's going to be brilliant!

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    A single, long leeboard on one side works really well. We have tried twin leeboards in the past but found the extra cost, and complication not worth the effort. Connecting them together with one mechanism to make them go up and down together is deffinitely too complicated. With a single board i usually have it vertical when going up wind, and angle it back at 45 degrees when running or reaching to reduce weather helm and make it track better. Couldnt do that with 2 connected boards.
    Keep the thought experiments going though, because its a great way to learn. When i started canoe sailing all those years ago there wasnt forums and the internet around where we could learn, about what worked best, from other people. We had to try all this out ourselves, and whilst it was good fun, it took many years to sort out what was worthwhile and what just didnt work.

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    Never mind twin cranked leeboards, what about hydrofoil outriggers. Imagine an outrigger beam with a hydrofoil on each end that would create lift when submerged, lighter and less bulky than an outrigger.........
    Extract the Michael why don't you Seeing that Raptor gave me all sorts of ideas, I still think its worth a go, the "L"' shaped foils would have to point out rather than in, I don't remember seeing any mechanical advantage on the Raptor apart from the length of the handle, which might be a problem, Dave sat a lot higher, which meant the handle could be longer. Shrug, once you've finished your square wheel, you can help me with finalising the design, we'll be rich, rich I tell you

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    Did Dave M tell you how many times he capsized whilst learning to sail his Raptor with the foil. They were great when they were working but when he got it wrong

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    I can imagine, awesome looking thing tho you have to admit.

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    A pivoting leeboard has to work on both tacks and therefore doesn't push the canoe to windward unlike the clip-on leeboard.
    Perhaps a pivoting leeboard could be allowed to twist or have an adjustable trim tail like a trim tab on an aileron or elevator? This would give it lift on one tack or another while maintaining it's reletive position on one side of the canoe.
    If it could be angled to maintain the vertical, even better, but all this stuff is making sailing complicated.



    Actually, could the lift be increased on the clip-on leeboard so that it keeps itself pushed into the side of the canoe even if there is no lee? I uploaded a video on the First Impressions thread early this morning in which you can see just how quickly the leeboard jumps out to the side, even though there is clearly a flow of water across it. Next time, I'll try pushing the leeboard further forward to see if the angle of attack keeps it in place rather than the cross sectional shape of the board itself.
    Last edited by Steamerpoint; 26th-April-2011 at 08:16 PM.

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    If the boat isnt making leeway then you dont need the board down and if it floats up like in the video it would be better on the other side or removed as it is just causing drag.
    I think that you may have a false sense of how well the clip on board works . You said previously that you were following a dinghy but you were able to sail a lot closer to the wind. However you dont know how well the dinghy was being sailed.
    I think that the clip on board works fine but i would prefer the single pivoting board for best all round performance. This is only going to show itself if we start racing with identical rigs but with the two different sorts of board, but my hunch is that the pivoting board will be slightly quicker. We may get chance to start testing this at Loch Ken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    If the boat isnt making leeway then you dont need the board down and if it floats up like in the video it would be better on the other side or removed as it is just causing drag.
    I think that you may have a false sense of how well the clip on board works . You said previously that you were following a dinghy but you were able to sail a lot closer to the wind. However you dont know how well the dinghy was being sailed.
    I think that the clip on board works fine but i would prefer the single pivoting board for best all round performance. This is only going to show itself if we start racing with identical rigs but with the two different sorts of board, but my hunch is that the pivoting board will be slightly quicker. We may get chance to start testing this at Loch Ken.
    Your right Dave and a hard one to judge as every canoe type will be behave differently so comparing leeboards is difficult. The concept is there though. The clip-on leeboard can be shaped & positioned where it is trying to push the canoe upwind, whereas a conventional leeboard/ centreboard can't without a way of changing the angle of attack.
    It would be a benefit of more complex tacks (Switching the leeboard over) if the pay off was better tracking.

    I take your point about the drag, but do you feel that putting the leeboard on the other side of the canoe would do much? Is it likely that with the boom over to port on a run/ slight broad reach, the canoe can in some way be toeing to starboard?

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    On a dead run with the sail out to port the sail will be trying to turn the bow to starboard,ie, it will have a force pushing the bow across to the right. This will indeed move the boat to the right but your rudder will correct this by moving the stern to the right and keeping it on track. The board coming up is a sign that this movement is happening. If the board is put on the other side in this situation the movement to the right should keep the board pinned against the side.
    I have only just realised that this could be happening as i mostly sail with a fixed board and you wont see this.
    I was having difficulty running in a force5 and steering with a paddle because there was a huge force trying to turn the boat which i counteracted with a powerful stern rudder pry which was extreeeeeemly tireing to hold. Next time i will try putting the board out on the opposite side from the sail to see if it relieves this.
    This is brilliant! the clip on leeboard may have just given me an insight into the forces going on when running.
    I already new that when running down wind it was advantageous to heel the boat so as to bring the centre of effort of the sail over the centre of the boat, but i had not understood why.

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    I'd not thought of that but it's quite obvious now you mention it Dave.

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    Doh..... Of course! There were a couple of ocasions where I could swear that I was crabbing along and now I understand why. This can also give the illusion that you are moving upwind, but in reality, you are just sailing sidways!!! Lol

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    Dave, I'm guessing that you may want to position the leeboard differently than if you were using it to go upwind? My instinct would tell me to put it further forward to utilise the curve of the gunwale for a steering effect and also to "push" more directly against the effort of the rig? Very interesting.

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