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Thread: Canoe sail

  1. #1
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    Smile Canoe sail

    Just spent an afternoon sailing with a borrowed sail -the sort that uses your poles to form mast and boom. Really enjoyed using and have just gotta got one. Can anyone point me in the right direction with Tinterweb links advice etc... Cheers Chris
    There is nothing—
    absolute nothing—half so much worth
    doing as simply messing about in boats.

  2. #2
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    Default

    Sounds like the one from Endless River www.EndlessRiver.co.uk

    Thread about mine here

    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...read.php?t=969



    John

  3. #3

    Default canoe sail

    hi just been sailing with home made rig

    have had a brookbank sail similar to endlessriver ones but with portage poles you need extension in boat as the inner end of the boom fouls the side of boat

    better to make one from poly tarp

    also make a leeboard
    photos will follow next week

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by climb_paddle_play View Post
    Just spent an afternoon sailing with a borrowed sail -the sort that uses your poles to form mast and boom. Really enjoyed using and have just gotta got one. Can anyone point me in the right direction with Tinterweb links advice etc... Cheers Chris
    Hmm, That Oceanic Feeling posting on a sailing thread, that's unusual

    So, some of you might have noticed that I'm frequently seen on this forum, extoling the virtues of high performance canoe sails. In doing so, I frequently come across people who say something to the effect of

    'I don't want a high performance sail, I want a flat sail that I can rig on a poling pole'

    Now I understand that if you are regularly doing trips like a Rannoch Moor crossing, or linking the Orchy with Loch Awe, R. Awe and Loch Etive - then there are some advantages to using the lightest sail you can find. But I have a suspicion that there aren't that many people doing that sort of trip.

    So why are sails that rig on poles so much more popular than the more high performance sails that set on purpose made spars? Is it just cost? Is it something to do with the 5* sylabus? I'd like to gain more of an understanding of the other side of the canoe sailing coin.
    Last edited by Oceanic; 14th-January-2007 at 06:14 PM. Reason: inability to spell

  5. #5
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    Default

    My reason is I am keen on canoeing, if I wanted to sail I would get a sail boat but if I can get some help heading downwind just with a little bit extra kit then well and good but I do not want a lot of extra fittings in the way that will be or could be detrimental to the canoeing ability.
    John

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MagiKelly View Post
    My reason is I am keen on canoeing, if I wanted to sail I would get a sail boat but if I can get some help heading downwind just with a little bit extra kit then well and good but I do not want a lot of extra fittings in the way that will be or could be detrimental to the canoeing ability.
    Thanks for your reply John. I can understand why people don't want to put a rudder, sailing air bags etc on their boat, but my main question was what are the advantages of using a pole instead of a purpose built mast?

  7. #7
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    Default Sailing

    I know very little of permanent masts and sails, but for what it is worth I give you my reasons, at the risk of generating more debate, for a very temporary sail that uses my pole. As a starter, I never go out to purely sail my canoe, I go out canoeing and if the conditions and weather are favourable I use the wind to my avantage.

    For me I carry poling poles anyway to pole and sometimes to raft up with another boat. Of course I can also use them for erecting a tarp shelter etc. I also occassionally want to sail downwind to save a bit of energy and I also find doing something a little different with my canoe to be rewarding - I don't want to sail into wind or tack etc. That my poles have at least a triple use is extremely efficient of space and weight. That I can generate a useful sail from my poles with a sail that fits into a 5" x 3" x 1" bag and weighs next to nothing and that it can be completely put up and down in 30 seconds is ideal. I end up with no permanent fixtures, maintain flexible use of my canoe and have to carry minimal additional equipment to get some variety and use the wind.

    I welcome your thoughts or indeed constructive correction to any invalid assumptions I have made about permanent masts and professional sails.

    Cheers
    Riverain

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverain View Post
    I know very little of permanent masts and sails, but for what it is worth I give you my reasons, at the risk of generating more debate
    Do you use your pole much on flat water only trips? I don't take mine unless I'm going on a river (I have heard of people poling along beaches on some Scottish Lochs though).

  9. #9
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    Default Pole and Flat Water

    I do carry them on flat water so that near shores or shallower water I can stand up and stretch the legs, practice my poling and venture into shallower feed streams. I have also been known to stand up and use the pole in a "kayak paddle" style to keep moving whilst letting blood back into the legs an feet. I think its a very useful tool to take along.
    Riverain

  10. #10
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    Default How to use poly tarp?

    Do you mean a square sail with tarp?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellboy View Post
    hi just been sailing with home made rig

    have had a brookbank sail similar to endlessriver ones but with portage poles you need extension in boat as the inner end of the boom fouls the side of boat

    better to make one from poly tarp

    also make a leeboard
    photos will follow next week
    There is nothing—
    absolute nothing—half so much worth
    doing as simply messing about in boats.

  11. #11
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    Default Sail boom and gunwales

    Hi, I had this problem with a Brookbank sail. I then made sure I used the longer half (only just over an inch longer) of my pole as the upright mast and this raised it enough in my boat to get clearance between boom and boat. An alternative I did think about was a square of high density foam with a hole in the top but not all the way through so that the base of the pole fitted into the foam and pinned it to the hull which raised the vertical pole up far enough (determined by amount of foam still remaining at the base of the hole) to clear the boom pole from contacting the boat.

    Hope this helps.
    Riverain

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Oceanic Feeling View Post
    Do you use your pole much on flat water only trips? I don't take mine unless I'm going on a river (I have heard of people poling along beaches on some Scottish Lochs though).
    I have hardly done any rivers and my pole gets used loads. I pole at the shallows in Lochs all the time as well as using the poles for tarps and sailing but to be honest I do not sail that often and when setting up tarps I usually have awning poles for that. I also have used the pole as a kayak paddle when sitting to make some progress in the wind.
    John

  13. #13
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    Thumbs up prob

    another way around is to use small section of right sized plastic pipe in the top of sail sleeve and atatched to thin end of pole to act as an extender. This is how my M8 got around prob and i will do the same for mine when it comes


    Quote Originally Posted by Riverain View Post
    Hi, I had this problem with a Brookbank sail. I then made sure I used the longer half (only just over an inch longer) of my pole as the upright mast and this raised it enough in my boat to get clearance between boom and boat. An alternative I did think about was a square of high density foam with a hole in the top but not all the way through so that the base of the pole fitted into the foam and pinned it to the hull which raised the vertical pole up far enough (determined by amount of foam still remaining at the base of the hole) to clear the boom pole from contacting the boat.

    Hope this helps.
    There is nothing—
    absolute nothing—half so much worth
    doing as simply messing about in boats.

  14. #14
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    Default Pole Extender

    Hey, like the pole extender idea, keeps the boat insides clean of a piece of foam and sail holds the plastic and pole together. Isn't this site great !
    Last edited by Riverain; 14th-January-2007 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Speeling
    Riverain

  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverain View Post
    Hi, I had this problem with a Brookbank sail. I then made sure I used the longer half (only just over an inch longer) of my pole as the upright mast and this raised it enough in my boat to get clearance between boom and boat. Hope this helps.
    Just to say if one pole if 25 mm longer than the other, then the swapover will actually give 50mm clearance for the tail end of the boom. (That's 2"). i.e the difference is doubled! a very worthwhile gain.
    And if the foot plate is thickened you get some more.

    Philip

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by climb_paddle_play View Post
    another way around is to use small section of right sized plastic pipe in the top of sail sleeve and atatched to thin end of pole to act as an extender. This is how my M8 got around prob and i will do the same for mine when it comes

    I used part of a paddle shaft and incorporated a pulley wheel into it. Then I altered the way the sail fitted to the mast (the orginal sleeve idea makes it very difficult to drop when out on the water if the wind picks up or gusts). Using loops rather than a sleeve the sail could then be raised and lowered very quickly, and had 6" of additional height.

    Sold it recently to go to a Solway Dory Exped rig. Much better sail, but a lot of additional weight and bulk to carry.
    If it wasn't for the rain in our lives there would be no rivers. X 2

  17. #17

    Default sails

    hi the sail that i use for both exped and sailing days is a bottom boomless sail similar to the thames sailing barges but with a boom thing 2/3 way up the mast up to a high point above the mast the spars used are custom made poling poles 6 foot long
    to enable me to tack have made a pivoting leeboard with a detachable thwart this assembly can be moved closer to mast or away optimum seems to be a foot behind mast ,to find best weather helm (goes head to wind if left to its self )now i know where leeboard should be will try tied on paddle for exped work
    this enable the direction to be partialy controlled by the leaboard pivoting and being nearer or further from centre of effort (sail centre)

    on a previous sailing element of an exped have sailed down loch horne and loch garry on west coast of scotland in a wananoe voyager

  18. #18
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    Default Down wind sail from Canada

    I used this sail on a solo unsupported trip along the Grand Canal in Ireland and it was great. Can be used down wind or near down wind sailing only.
    Information at
    http://www.spiritsails.com

  19. #19
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    Smile any pics

    Would be interested in pics of this if you've got any?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellboy View Post
    hi the sail that i use for both exped and sailing days is a bottom boomless sail similar to the thames sailing barges but with a boom thing 2/3 way up the mast up to a high point above the mast the spars used are custom made poling poles 6 foot long
    to enable me to tack have made a pivoting leeboard with a detachable thwart this assembly can be moved closer to mast or away optimum seems to be a foot behind mast ,to find best weather helm (goes head to wind if left to its self )now i know where leeboard should be will try tied on paddle for exped work
    this enable the direction to be partialy controlled by the leaboard pivoting and being nearer or further from centre of effort (sail centre)

    on a previous sailing element of an exped have sailed down loch horne and loch garry on west coast of scotland in a wananoe voyager
    There is nothing—
    absolute nothing—half so much worth
    doing as simply messing about in boats.

  20. #20
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    Default

    hehe,- I was going to suggest someone who could give some opinions on this, but I see that oceanic feeling is the chairman of the OCSG, so it kind of rules that out.-and is a competent sailor as well!- for me, it really is dumping it into the boat and using it on multi day expeditions, where i might be portaging or whatever, but in all cases its a canoe expedition, and yep, when i want to sail i go sailing, when i want to go canoe expeding, then the downwind/across wind sail is useful, but has to be improvised, and with something that has other uses in the boat on the trip. But i know we are all different thats why there are so many varying answers already in this thread. and i'm sure we all enjoy the way we go.
    In answer to the question put; I'd think your thoughts are both valid, the syllabus at that level-5*-, means that the folk with those sort of quals are then influencing the others around them, and so folk go with the 'improvised' But also possibly, is it because we 'tinker' with out boats and kit, and therefore the improvised is what we end up with, OR is it also that not so many folk have heard/seen your boats and sails, if more did, then maybe they will see the benefits?;
    i hope oceanic is having fun on his course!!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by eilean mor View Post
    i hope oceanic is having fun on his course!!
    Ah ha! Keith told me you were lurking on this forum somewhere.

    Today I had to go to a lecture with 10 nurses. Hope that answers your question .

  22. #22
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    Default

    that made me laugh out loud and smile!!

  23. #23
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    Default Purist cross wind sailing

    Hi just discovered this thread and felt I had something to add

    Many threads talk about downwind sailing only

    Found that can use a small sail like the Brookbank sail and still go crosswind without the use of a leeboard. The best way I have found is an indian beaver tail paddle, although other paddles work nearly as well, that is held and pressed to te side of the boat like a leeboard.

    This means am using the same paddle to control direction and do crossswind sailing without cluttering the boat with sail craft equipment. Can get a decent speed, is relatively stabel when moving, and sometimes offers some excitement that comes from pushing for spped whilst at the edge of control. Sail nees to be tied into position as do not have free hand for that.

    Wont work for a bigger sail as would get away from you. I have a much larger sail that I use a leeboard with.

  24. #24

    Default

    A-Ha! The second time (at least) that someone has talked about using the paddle as a leeboard. I am wondering if anybody has done this but by using a draw on the windward side of the boat rather than a jam/pry to leeward?

    My sensation is that this would give a bit more control, especially if kneeling. It would be easier to get a bit of weight to windward. I guess you could also use a sculling draw to compensate for the small area of the paddle when moving away from a standstill or after a tack.

    What I like about the canoe is that all the elements acting on the boat can be felt directly through the paddle - I would like a sailing set up which retained this feel.

    Chris

  25. #25

    Default Canoe Sailing

    Done This Quite A Lot Sailed Up The Inland Sea In Anglesea And Various Resevoirs In Peaks Area And Up Nd Down Lake Bala
    See Previous Posts

    Use Custom Sail And Clamped Pivotable Lee Board Then Steer With Paddle Mostly On The Windward Side

  26. #26

    Default

    How do you think it would go without the leeboard? I was hoping to avoid the complication - especially as I have a folding canoe and am trying to minimise wringing loads on the jelly-like hull.

    One idea I was toying with was a dedicated 'sailing paddle'. The plan is that this would have a deeper blade and a suitable foil section i.e. it would have a forward edge and an aft edge.

  27. #27

    Default

    Have just read the thread and am delighted that there's a solution to the brookbank sail kit problem. My heart sank when I got it home and started playing with it.

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