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Thread: River access

  1. #1
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    Default River access

    Hi All

    I have wanted to get into this for some time.

    But lets say my style of going about things is different to most people

    can you all please read the email below

    I think that if we each put a 5.00 in we may solve this problem for once
    and for all, what do you say?


    Thank you

    John O'Connell
    Web Page www.occuk.co.uk/outdoor
    --------------------------------------
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Admin" <admin@legal-zone.co.uk>
    To: <John@occuk.co.uk>
    Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 5:42 PM
    Subject: rivers

    <http://www.legal-zone.co.uk/>

    <mailto:info@legal-zone.co.uk>


    John


    I have rarely heard such garbage. Since ancient times there has been a
    right of passage down our rivers and this still exists subject to the
    various regulations and bylaws.

    As a boating man myself. I am well aware of the abuse of fishermen who
    indeed think they own our rivers and canals. They do not. Treat this with
    the contempt it deserves.

    Regards

    Andrew Dutton

    Andrew Dutton

    Legal Consultant
    Thank you

    John O'Connell
    -------------------------------------
    O C Outdoor
    Web page www.occuk.co.uk/outdoor
    --------------------------------------

  2. #2
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    Default

    Hi Jon,

    I think you have omitted to post some context. I cannot see what this legal reply is actually to.

    Rob.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  3. #3
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    Default

    I said fisherman and landowners say they have the right to stop me canoeing on a river
    Do they have this right?
    I had the following reply
    __________________
    Thank you

    John O'Connell
    -------------------------------------
    O C Outdoor
    Web page www.occuk.co.uk/outdoor
    --------------------------------------

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Admin" <admin@legal-zone.co.uk>
    To: <John@occuk.co.uk>
    Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 5:42 PM
    Subject: rivers

    <http://www.legal-zone.co.uk/>

    <mailto:info@legal-zone.co.uk>

    John

    I have rarely heard such garbage. Since ancient times there has been a
    right of passage down our rivers and this still exists subject to the
    various regulations and bylaws.

    As a boating man myself. I am well aware of the abuse of fishermen who
    indeed think they own our rivers and canals. They do not. Treat this with
    the contempt it deserves.

    Regards

    Andrew Dutton

    Andrew Dutton

    Legal Consultant

    We hope that the advice given here is useful.

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  4. #4
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    Default

    interesting
    is he saying that there is in theory access to all rivers regardless of owenership? and that provided you can get access and exit the we can say yr boo sucks to the river'owners'
    do the bcu access people know this ? if not why not?
    nature is m X-box

  5. #5
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    Default

    Perhaps they are taking a purist view. My understanding is as follows:-

    1. There is no statutary law that says rivers are privately owned.

    2. There is no statutary law that denies access to paddlers or anyone on any rivers.

    3. There was a ruling (some say incorrectly) in 1830 that decided that Land owners held riparian rights over the rivers on their land, and therefore had the right to exploit the rivers for there own personal benefit. This has been assumed over time to include access for boats and river users.

    4. I am not aware anyone has ever chalenged this ruling. Anyone know different?

    5. You would have to assume that the BCU have had many legal experts looking at this, and they still conclude that we have no access.

    6. 98% of rivers are not accessible to us. Problem is 98% of rivers are not accissble to most boat owners because their boats are too big, so what do they care?

    I would love to see someone mount a legal challenge, but they're going to need a lot of dosh!

    The other problem with all this is numbers. Canoeist by and large are few and far between. They seem generally to go out in small groups and are often older and so have a little more respect for others. Also many go out to enjoy the peace and quiet of the natural world.

    Kayakers, well there are just more of them. They tend to go out in large groups often (though not always) simply for the adrenalin rush of one rapid or another. They can be noisy and cause a lot of disturbance to river banks. Can you imagine what our national parks would be like if you let them all loose? Imagine hiking across some hillside to visit a beaty spot only to find it full of Kayaks beating the place up. Kind of spoils the image in my mind.

    I don't know to what level Scotland has suffered like this since the land reform act, but it's a big country with only 6-7M people. England has 50M and thus a lot less space to go around.

    Anyway I'm just playing devils advocate really. I would love to see more access, but these are the kind of arguments that will go on, assuming we ever even have a debate.
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  6. #6

    Default access

    Derwent Navigation case would be the one to look at. BCU got set up by the rest of the waterways industry with the result they got their fingers severely burnt.
    "All right" said Eeyore "We're going. Only don't blame me"

    www.canoepaddler.me.uk

  7. #7
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    Default

    [quote=Matto;21785]Perhaps they are taking a purist view. My understanding is as follows:-

    3. There was a ruling (some say incorrectly) in 1830 that decided that Land owners held riparian rights over the rivers on their land, and therefore had the right to exploit the rivers for there own personal benefit. This has been assumed over time to include access for boats and river users.

    riparian rights ie river bank rights

    If you have these you can not interfear with the passage of fish or water all it gives you is the right to extract water max 20M cub I think.
    And if you have a rod licence you can fish in season
    You must keep the river bank in good condition.
    Where does it say you can stop others using the river

    you can not stop fishing from the other bank

    We can all sit back and let others do it or we can sort it out.
    Thank you

    John O'Connell
    -------------------------------------
    O C Outdoor
    Web page www.occuk.co.uk/outdoor
    --------------------------------------

  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Randall View Post
    Derwent Navigation case would be the one to look at. BCU got set up by the rest of the waterways industry with the result they got their fingers severely burnt.
    Hi Chris
    What do you mean "fingers severely burnt" how much did the have to pay out and why.
    Does any one know of a successful prosecution?
    Thank you

    John O'Connell
    -------------------------------------
    O C Outdoor
    Web page www.occuk.co.uk/outdoor
    --------------------------------------

  9. #9

    Default Information about access

    Dear all

    In case there is any confusion, England and Wales have the position (this is not me, this is what has been said for years!) that landowners on either side of rivers own 'the river' i.e. the land underneath the water to the mid-river line. As a result, people are threatened, sucessfully, with legal action. . I suggest you ask the BCU for advice if not sure.
    In Scotland, a previously vague situation was totally reorganised with the 2003 Land Reform Act, and its Code (SOAC), out in February 2005. This gives ALL people the right of acess to ALL water in Scotland (with a very few special exceptions) .
    The BCU iand WCA are fighting a very long and expensive Parliamentary legal route to alter the situation in England and Wales, and the Welsh Assembly might do something on their own - again, ask them

    Eddie Palmer, the Clockwork Orange van man
    (SCA Access Co-ordinator)

  10. #10
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    Default

    Just to clarify a few points.

    The BCU do not have loads of legal experts looking into this, they simply do not have the money to do this.

    Rev Doug caffyn has written a report into the matter and has concluded that the legal advice concluded in 1830s was incorrect and that the provisions of Magna Carta para 42 (IIRC) still apply that the rivers are freely available for the use of 'merchants'.

    I don't think the BCU ''are fighting a very long and expensive Parliamentary legal route to alter the situation in England and Wales'' again because they do not have the finance. They are conducting a campaign of sorts which involves lobbying MPs and this has been effective in raising awareness.

    My guess is that we are most unlikely to (ever) see legislation on the subject because there is not enough political capital in satisfying our small pressure group.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    Kayakers, well there are just more of them. They tend to go out in large groups often (though not always) simply for the adrenalin rush of one rapid or another. They can be noisy and cause a lot of disturbance to river banks. Can you imagine what our national parks would be like if you let them all loose? Imagine hiking across some hillside to visit a beaty spot only to find it full of Kayaks beating the place up. Kind of spoils the image in my mind.
    Matto,
    any chance I can have some of whatever you've been smoking?

    If this is how you see fellow paddlers, what chance have any of us got for fair access to a shared resource. I have been paddling kayaks for many years and rarely see paddlers going out for the 'adrenaline rush', they are rarely 'noisy' and try to avoid 'disturbance to river banks'. The vast majority cause no more of a nuisance than us canoeists do! Some of them even paddle both canoes and kayaks (but not normally at the same time)!!!!

  12. #12
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    Sorry Ian, it's nothing personal, I just tell it like I see it.

    I regularly see Kakakers turn up, play in the weir pool and then go home. No interest in the river or its beauty at all.

    A couple of weeks a go as we shuttled cars we must have seen 20-30 kayaks unloading at Yalding Weir, and yet didn't see a single one on the river all day (admittedly I wasn't sorry about this ).

    Getting out on the bank after twenty kayakers have made wet exits from the boat and up the bank (do they ever even think of a dry exit?) is a tad annoying and unecessarilly muddy and slippery. There aren't that many easy places to get in and out, why do they have to make so much mess ?

    Because they are usually in such large groups when I see them, they make a lot of noise. It's only natural I suppose - but I have to admit I try to keep away from them. They spoil my enjoyment - and I really don't think they see what I see most of the time.

    To be fair I'm certain there are those that do. But then you don't notice them do you? Because I suspect like most of us they make little noise, and move in small numbers.

    One of the rivers us Kentish paddlers have been paddling a lot recently is the lower River Beult. It is privateley owned and when you paddle you are passing private gardens and homes. To date everyone I have spoken to along this river has been friendly and chatty, stopping to pass the time of day: "nice boat", "thanks how's the fishing", "having a tidy up?" etc etc. I honestly believe that this is the best way to combat the private owebrship of rivers. Just paddle them if you can get away with it and be nice. I know it can't and won't work everywhere, but I think there are many rivers that can be paddled which we are put off from paddling. Remember that the folk who own land next to these rivers are also prevented from boating just as much as we are, and therefore in some cases are predisposed to our point of view. However last time we paddled the Beult we met a large group of Kayaks doing what they normally do, and I just worry that the folk that technically own that river might find the idea of twenty noisy kayakers less than tolerable - to the detriment of everyone.

    Sorry - rant over .
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    Sorry Ian, it's nothing personal, I just tell it like I see it.
    I regularly see Kakakers turn up, play in the weir pool and then go home. No interest in the river or its beauty at all.
    Nothing personal, and just telling it like I see it, but I find this attitude narrow minded, reeking of prejudice and borderline offensive.

    You don't know what those kayakers do when they're not paddling the weir, do you? In fact, you know little or nothing about them other than the fact that they enjoy a bit of playboating but from that you seem willing to deduce their whole outlook on the river environment and dismiss them as legitimate recreational users of it.

    I park and play in a kayak, and I paddle the wilds in my open. I love the adrenaline rush of white water, and I'm blown away by the beauty of our wild places. Tell me, which of your pidgeonholes are you going to put me in.

    The bottom line is that whether the paddlers you see have an interest in the river is irrelevant. The fact is that it's utterly wrong to judge them, and apparently all other kayakers, simply based on what you've seen.

    The point of open access is that it is for all. Working to gain this access against the wishes of landowners is hard enough, without having to struggle against a second set of selfish & petty prejudices from other recreational users.

    p.s. kayakers do cause problems on rivers, so do open boaters, fishermen, kids, dog walkers, swimmers, farmers, uncle Tom Cobbley and all. The answer is education, not restriction.
    Veni Vidi Natavi

  14. #14
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    Sorry, but people will always be judged on what they do, however unjust it may be.

    Should I not have judged the three lads tearing up the river bank on Quad Bikes just in case they were really thoughtful outdoor loving kids the rest of the time? How should I know? All I saw is what they were doing then. It was noisy, probably illegal and certainly hazardous to anyone walking the tow path.

    So I also judged the large group of kayakers who all chose to wet exit their boats, then drag them up the same bit of bank. and leave muddy pools of water along the tow path, making it messy, slippery and hazardous for every other walker, boater and user of the river bank. I don't know and don't much care what they do the rest of the time. Right there and then they were a nuisance, and that is how others are going to see them.

    And I fully expect to be judged in the same way. If I leave my car in inconsiderate places to shorten my portage, or leave my kit in peoples way, or upset fishermen because I can, I fully accept that it will lower their opinion of me and what I'm doing.
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    Sorry, but people will always be judged on what they do, however unjust it may be.
    That is a trully frightening attitude, I mean you could defend almost anything by saying "people will alway be X, however unjust it may be"; X could robbed, discriminated against, left to starve, shot, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    Should I not have judged the three lads tearing up the river bank on Quad Bikes just in case they were really thoughtful outdoor loving kids the rest of the time?
    Probably a fair assement, but in that case a reasonable judgement based on some facts - if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it' probably a duck.
    However, can you justify the statement you made that the park and play boaters at the weir had "no interest in the river or its beauty at all", or are you at least prepared to admit that that was pure prejudice. Where's the link?

    And while you're at it, can you explain why your observations on a few kayakers leads you to the conclusion that all kayakers are like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    So I also judged the large group of kayakers who all chose to wet exit their boats, then drag them up the same bit of bank. and leave muddy pools of water along the tow path, making it messy, slippery and hazardous for every other walker, boater and user of the river bank.
    You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here; muddy pools of water making the river bank messy? I appreciatte that it doesn't rain much in Kent but come on, how can you claim to love the outdoors on one hand and then get upset becasue it gets muddy. Do you have slippers to change into when you get out of your boat or something?
    Veni Vidi Natavi

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    I think this is the most heated debate I have seen on this forum but I certainly have some sympathy with Mr Orchy. I belong to a club on the Thames. It is just two weirs from the famous Hurley weir which is renowned as a venue enjoyed by considerable numbers of kayakers including my son and the current world freestyle champion who is also a member of our club. (that gets the self interest bits out of the way)

    I doubt very much if any of the kayakers perform what was described as a 'wet exit' assuming this means capsizing and swimming to the bank. It is the nature of kayaking that when you climb out of your boat you drip water everywhere. It really is not practical to avoid this. I am sure this is what accounts for the puddles. Getting a kayak into the water from a soft bank is also not as straight forward as a canoe. You can't just step into them and if you haven't got a sharp edge, it is difficult to climb in from a sitting position. It is normal therefore to sit in the boat on the bank and slide in - usually known as a seal-launch. I'm afraid this can result in some bank erosion to a similar degree as caused by the motor launches and the boats accompanying rowers.

    On the water, I am pleased that everyone is enjoying themselves provided it causes little disturbance to others. Kayakers have a habit of dressing brightly and performing acrobatics at the weir can be a welcome sight for passers-by just as much as a canoeist shooting a big rapid or waterfall.

    I think the name of the game is 'tolerence'. Let people enjoy themselves because life is too short not to.

  17. #17
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    We are starting to drift wildy off thread here, but here goes...

    Quote Originally Posted by urchaidh View Post
    That is a trully frightening attitude, I mean you could defend almost anything by saying "people will alway be X, however unjust it may be"; X could robbed, discriminated against, left to starve, shot, etc.
    I don't know why you have such a problem with that statement. Perhaps it is the word judge. Perhaps "form an opinion" would be better. If I see someone smashing a phone box, I think they are a vandal. Likewise if I see people enjoying their hobby to the detriment of others I think they are inconsiderate. What's so wrong with that? It's an opinion formed at that time on the evidence of my eyes. It doesn't mean it can't change or be changed, but in most cases that's all you ever get to see of someone and their behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by urchaidh View Post
    And while you're at it, can you explain why your observations on a few kayakers leads you to the conclusion that all kayakers are like that.
    Probably 75% of the kayakers I see are in large groups hanging around public areas like weirs or launch sites. That puts them right in the public gaze. Like it or not, in England, based purely on numbers they are the amabassadors of our sport. Not you or me or anyone who chooses to take their boats (canoe or kayak) quietly up river. So when the access debate comes and they talk about canoes - these are the people they will think of in my opinion.

    And yes I probably am being prejudiced, but even down here in Kent the rivers are beautiful, and I am always slightly appalled that I see so few (out of so many) kayaks ever exploring it. I shouldn't complain as it makes it more enjoyable for me. And OK there is no reason why they have to go up river, except that it makes me feel they are disinterested river users, only out for the buzz, and not for the river.

    Quote Originally Posted by urchaidh View Post
    You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here; muddy pools of water making the river bank messy? I appreciatte that it doesn't rain much in Kent but come on, how can you claim to love the outdoors on one hand and then get upset becasue it gets muddy. Do you have slippers to change into when you get out of your boat or something?
    No I have no personal problem with mud. However the place in question is a tow path next to a cafe, where families walk with children. They just come out for a stroll, and don't much appreciate the mess. And I don't much like being lumped into the group who created it.
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I doubt very much if any of the kayakers perform what was described as a 'wet exit' assuming this means capsizing and swimming to the bank.
    No I regret they capsized to a man (deliberately obviously), including the one canadian in their midst.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Cooper View Post
    I think the name of the game is 'tolerence'. Let people enjoy themselves because life is too short not to.
    I agree completely, and please don't think that I am in any way anti kayaks, despite what you might infer from my words (I did say I was playing devils advocate). But when our hobby can be seen in a negative light by others, I just think it naive of us to ever think we will get more access.

    If we were defending access rights already held it might be different, but in demanding access rights which we currently don't have we are going to be challenged on every part of our behaviour, by every objector that can raise their hand, be they reasonable or not.
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  19. #19
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    Default Kayack/Canoe differences

    There do definitely seem to be different aims and objectives in the paddle world. Laurence and I have been on the Canch a few times recently and where the river is stunningly beautiful and usually completely deserted.

    Deserted that is except at one weir where there is some superb white water and a permanent hangout of the local Kayack club. There are some truly skilled paddlers there that are awesome to watch and a friendly bunch as well, but all they do is play in that single 100m section of the river all day, every day. Talking to them they do apparently have a club trip down the river *once a year* but there isn't apparently much interest in it and last year only six boats went down.

    There is no doubt that that club are just not interested in the river itself and are centred entirely around their slalom course. There again there are Kayackers of a different breed who explore the coasts and rivers in touring boats and with entirely different motivations.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  20. #20

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    Isn't it great how diverse our sport is!

    Those of us who like quiet rivers for peace and solitude to enjoy the beauty around us, can find such a place.

    Those of us who are looking for the thrill of a whitewater playspot can also find somewhere to have a good time.

    I for one, want to see as many people enjoying themselves as possible. This will then attract more people to our sport and make the whole access issue more and more important. It will be resolved eventually (I'm convinced), but it will take a lot of us to do it.

    The public see paddlers at a playspot, it is quite a spectacle. there is a lot of skill and talent out there and it is good to watch. It is really hard to see what harm they are causing to anyone or anything. I would venture that more harm to the environment is caused by all of us driving to a venue, as opposed to what harm we do when we get there.

    It's far too easy to critisise a group for leaving a puddle on a towpath, and there's too much of an 'us and them' mentality here! Maybe instead we need to support the sport whole heartedly, and enjoy it's diversity!!!!!!

  21. #21
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    I met the rudest most arrogant people the other week on the Medway whilst paddling with Richard. We were loading our canoes by a lock with our camping kit when a bunch of sprint/marathon kayakers came along screaming get out of their way. If I hadnt spent such a relaxing stress free day and night on the river they would have been privilaged to witness how dangerous a single paddle can be in the hands of a disgruntled canoeist.

    Richard and I stood stunned as they shot past pushing by. 30 minutes later at another lock we had the joy of another meeting with these people. Once again the same self centred belief that they own the river.

    I assume that this group use the river every Sunday and behave like this regularly. No wonder anglers hate paddlers and tar all water users with the same brush.

    Bushcraft Survival and First Aid Training.

  22. #22
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    Laurence and I have met these guys as well. When in 'rest mode' between sprints they were actually reasonably friendly. Otherwise when they came charging back down the river I might have gently drifted downstream sideways leaving them the banks and bushes to navigate rather than giving them the clear water

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne View Post
    I met the rudest most arrogant people the other week on the Medway whilst paddling with Richard. We were loading our canoes by a lock with our camping kit when a bunch of sprint/marathon kayakers came along screaming get out of their way. If I hadnt spent such a relaxing stress free day and night on the river they would have been privilaged to witness how dangerous a single paddle can be in the hands of a disgruntled canoeist.

    Richard and I stood stunned as they shot past pushing by. 30 minutes later at another lock we had the joy of another meeting with these people. Once again the same self centred belief that they own the river.

    I assume that this group use the river every Sunday and behave like this regularly. No wonder anglers hate paddlers and tar all water users with the same brush.
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  23. #23
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    If we had been on the water I would have just paddled out of their way.

    We were on the jetties getting ready to launch.

    Everyone else I have met on the water from kayakers to anglers have generally been welcoming. after all we are all trying to gain a little pleasure in an otherwise hectic life.

    I don't want to stop these kayakers training. However at locks etc it would be good if they hit the stopwatch and behaved with respect to the other river users.

    Bushcraft Survival and First Aid Training.

  24. #24
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    Assuming this was some form of marathon race, I understand that it is normal for racing to be suspended during portages. If they continue racing (running) during the portage, they are probably breaking the race rules although I am not sure what the penalty would be.

    By the way, I also think it is extremely rude to behave in this way and I would accost them and ask them to explain themselves while their competitors run on ahead of them.

  25. #25
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    in the canoe world we have play boaters
    in the mountains world we have boulderers
    in the sailing world we have wave jumpers
    in the 4x4 world we have green laners
    in the camping world we have huge rallies
    in the flying world we have aerobatics
    etc etc
    each of these groups are expanding the levels the sport is performed at and through R and d the rest of us benefit. im sure Plastic boats came from the need to have tougher kayaks for WW
    some people indulge in all aspects of their chosen sport.
    i have done ww on rivers and artificial courses, surf kayaked played polo ( some of these people never paddle outside ) toured open boated and raced, as a mountain person i have rockclimbed bouldered hill walked orienteered etc etc
    as i have indulged in these things does that make me a paddelr with attitude.
    its horses for courses
    its the attitude to the environment and other users that these people should be judged on and im afraid to say that many of the general public only have snapshot of our water activities and that is how they will see us from that moment on.
    of course we all know that all football supporters are mindless morons and thugs dont we
    nature is m X-box

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    Quote Originally Posted by andym View Post
    of course we all know that all football supporters are mindless morons and thugs dont we
    We do indeed!

    Except that nice couple down the road with a season ticket to the local club.

    Canoe flat
    Canoe WW
    Kayak flat
    Kayak racing - but only once - it was hard work but I did win
    Kayak WW
    Kayak freestyle (but only a little bit and I wasn't very good)
    Kayak coach
    Canoe and kayak abroad - those pesky French with their great access

  27. #27
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    Dec 2005
    Location
    Romsey, Paddle estuaries within an hour, also club member and coach, and scout canoeing helper
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne View Post
    a bunch of sprint/marathon kayakers came along screaming get out of their way.
    If they are paddling proper marathon kayaks then they capsize as soon as they stop unless the paddler is very experienced, so you can possibly understand why they don't want anything in the way.

    At one canoe club I saw people trying to learn how to paddle these things - you have to admire their dedication to the style as it involves getting very wet very often.

    if it is an organised event then they should have put notices up and possibly arranged a marshall to warn other water users.

    Brevan
    Brevan,
    1664 - a great year for river access
    Romsey, Hampshire
    Twitter: BrevanM
    Follow my blog at http://riveraccessrights.blogspot.com/

  28. #28

    Default Racing

    Hi,if these guys were racing I can understand their frustration at finding a touring open in their way,yes you do sprint on portages,races are frequently won or lost on portages,run as fast as you can if you have any oxygen left,so show so consideration on both sides.live and let live.And no you dont capsize when you are stationary in a K1,K2,C1,C2.

    Eric C.
    Last edited by Eric C.; 27th-November-2006 at 05:33 PM. Reason: More to add.

  29. #29
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    I asked as they pushed past one had the courtesy to say they were training.
    Before almost knocking into the water with his boat.

    Bushcraft Survival and First Aid Training.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Hi,if these guys were racing I can understand their frustration at finding a touring open in their way,yes you do sprint on portages,races are frequently won or lost on portages,run as fast as you can if you have any oxygen left,so show so consideration on both sides.live and let live.And no you dont capsize when you are stationary in a K1,K2,C1,C2.

    Eric C.
    Um, let me get this straight.

    There are two guys, not even with the flimsy excuse of being in a race, on public ground, who yell at and push aside other users of the waterway entirely without provocation.

    And you are trying to defend this?
    Happy paddling ,
    Rob.


  31. #31

    Default access

    Hello Gwing,if these guys (or Gals) were not actually racing then a formal complaint should be made to their club.I note you infer there was physical contact which apparently did not occur,however Wayne threatens to use his paddle as a weapon and you would deliberatley obstruct the waterway,who is being aggressive now? If you did that to me on the water whilst I was racing you could be very well practising your self rescue!
    Fortunatley that is unlikely to occur having just retired from serious racing after 60 yrs. on the water,I personally keep out of the way of racers (some of whom are very commited athletes) then everybody is happy.

  32. #32
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    Apr 2006
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    West Sussex.
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    The paddle comment was light hearted. My complaint with the kayaks was that they were very rude and and arrogant to 2 open canoeists whilst training. If this is an example of their regular behaviour on the water then it is no wonder paddlers in general are held in low esteem as most members of the public would not seperate canoes from sprint kayaks etc.

    Richard and I were polite and tried as best we could to move out of their way.

    We were not locals and they may have been in a race when we first encountered them. Even on the second jetty we remained polite but were less inclined to get out of their way. I think someone carrying a small carbon pencil could wait for 2 men manovering a fully laden 15ft royalex open. That is just my views on being repectful to other users of the river.

    Kayakers and Anglers have every right to enjoy the water. I try and be friendly to all i meet in the great outdoors. I was more shocked becuase the rudeness came from fellow paddlers.

    Bushcraft Survival and First Aid Training.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Fortunatley that is unlikely to occur having just retired from serious racing after 60 yrs. on the water,I personally keep out of the way of racers (some of whom are very commited athletes) then everybody is happy.
    Personally I expect people to keep out of my way. It really is just a case of good manners. Whether they were racing or not has absolutely no bearing on the matter. I am a committed canoeist and I don't expect people to put up with behaviour like that from me.

  34. #34

    Default access

    [quote=Adrian Cooper;22466]Personally I expect people to keep out of my way. ]

    Hi Adrian,does this apply to 60 ton commercial barges ???

  35. #35
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    Now you're just being silly

  36. #36
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    Jun 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    Sorry Ian, it's nothing personal, I just tell it like I see it.

    I regularly see Kakakers turn up, play in the weir pool and then go home. No interest in the river or its beauty at all.
    I agee with you Matto I believe that most of these people are not even kayakers. they are play boaters. i expect most of these guys could not paddle a straight line if they tried.

    Crocbait
    Love lots trust few always paddle your own canoe

  37. #37
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    Does that presume that paddling in a straight line is a prerequisite for enjoying paddlindg at all?

    My eldest son is, how you say, a playboater, yesterday I took him to the airport, he is to spend two months in Uganda paddling the White Nile. His paddling skills will knock spots off anyone posting here. Since indulging in playboating, his level of boat control, spacial awareness, fitness etc, etc have improved enormously. In the summer, when the water conditions are not suitable, he often takes out a racing boat to maintain his fitness level.

    Playboating is an exellent means of developing skills.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Hebrides
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    Isn't stereotyping fun!

    Here are a few more.

    Sea kayakers who think that they are superior because the bit of water they go in is bigger than everyone elses.

    Kayakers who never paddle flat water because doing less than grade 4 would make them like an open canoeist.

    Open canoeists who buy expensive, old fashioned, 'traditional' kit to use in a plastic canoe on some canal because it brings them nearer to the true wilderness experience.

    And in other sports.

    Rock climbers who do all the hardest routes on the climbing wall but never on a crag.

    Off-roaders who just like getting their over equipped 4x4 muddy so they can pose down the high street.

    I'm sure you can think of some more

    Q

  39. #39

    Default Skills

    [quote=Adrian Cooper];
    .[ His paddling skills will knock spots off anyone posting here.]

    Bit over the top here,member of the British team is he?? There are at least two multi discipline level 5 coaches and one national champion who post regularly on this site,wouldn't it be better to leave the "My black cat is blacker than yours" syndrome and just let all paddlers of whatever persuasion get on the water and enjoy?? themselves.

    Regards Eric C.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Wakefield West Yorks.
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    In the middle of the last century pitched battles were fought on our beaches by opposing groups these groups were known as the Mods and the Rockers. It took them more than 3 decades to figure out that actually they were on the same side all their machines had 2 wheels and if they stood united their voice against those who control would be much louder.
    We as paddlers need to adopt the same attitude Whatever, however,and wherever,we paddle we still paddle!!. Mike B...
    You only have the one life so live it

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