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Thread: Sailing a Canoe on the Sea

  1. #1

    Default Sailing a Canoe on the Sea

    Hi All,

    For many years I have dabbled with cruising dinghies waiting for the time when my wife would finally agree to risking herself on the briny.
    However with increasing age and ever-more frequent strong breezes I have had to accept that this will not happen.

    And then I realised that a canoe might be a solution - probably more stable and certainly something one can enjoy in almost any breeze.
    Even better if a sail could be put up during light breezes!

    It didn't take long to discover that a second-hand Canadian canoe might be the answer but a search produced few local offers with most in the North. Even eBay has very few in the South.

    And when I do find one will it be easy to fit a rudder - the mast etc looks relatively simple - or am I wrong?

    Any suggestions?

    Most of the useful comments so far have assumed my canoe will be on a river up North but where I live the sea is the obvious place.

    The Swale/Medway/ is quite well sheltered but the ever-increasing wind has made solo dinghy sailing more and more problematic. But with a canoe I could go out in almost any weather and put up a sail if the breeze was found to be gentle - just for once!

    Are there no canoe activities in the South? All I have found seems far away from me!

    Graham
    Last edited by Silvergirl; 25th-September-2009 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Combine posts

  2. #2
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    Default

    Hi Graham,
    You can put a sail of sorts on most canoes as the picture below shows. To do serious sailing close to the wind you will require a leeboard and rudder but for just downwind sailing a paddle works as a rudder.
    This picture was taken off Haying Island in benign conditions; a F3 breeze is probably best.


    Good luck with your search Jim

  3. #3

    Default Sea Canoeing

    Hi Jim,

    Thanks for that!
    What sort of canoe is in the picture?

    Graham

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    Default

    I take it you've found the good folk at Solway Dory, the Open Canoe Sailing Group and the sailing canoe Yahoo group.

    The Solway Dory crew report having "sailed upwind with a heavily reefed Bermudan sail in wind strength of force 7 against which it would have been very difficult to paddle", and talk of performance levels that match many small dingies - and their bloggs of their expeditions off the west coast of Scotland are most impressive.

    Lots of other rigs get discussed elsewhere: seems to be something for everyone if you look hard enough!

  5. #5
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    Default

    Hi Graham,
    It's a Stearns Spree 2 inflatable. Like you I wanted to get my wife involved but she's only been in it twice in 3 years. There is a club for open canoe sailing here http://www.ocsg.org.uk/ but as you have said it is mostly up north.
    Over the winter I built a SF Christine but have yet to try the sail on it; it is a bit narrow on the beam so may need an outrigger.
    Jim

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    Default Sailing canoes on the sea

    As you observe, the Open Canoe Sailing Group events tend to be be 'up north' (though if you live in Aberdeen they are way down south!)
    The reason for this situation is rather chicken-and-egg. Trying to find good bits of open water, preferably with camping waterside or nearby, for canoe-sailing is tricky and particularly challenging in the south of England. People are reluctant to travel too far for weekend events - lots of opportunities in the Lakes means lots of events and lots of our members live in 'the north'.
    In fact there are members of the OCSG all around the UK and beyond, including in Hampshire, Surrey, Sussex, Devon, Cornwall etc.
    As it happens at our last event we have been discussing the usefulness of having regional gatherings so that just a few bods can get together for an outing, either for a day or a weekend.

  7. #7
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    Default Sailing canoe plans and Kent meets

    Hi Graham,
    Welcome to the site.In selfbuild canoes section,the first thread Public Domain plans has a wealth of info for building a canoe and converting to sailing.If you want a good quick build useing plans ,the Selway Fisher ranger 16would be ideal,and fitting outrigers ,leeboards and mast and rudder simple.Fyne boat kits would also have a good kit in the wastwater.
    Several;Kent meets this year for paddlers,hopefully some sea sailing next year or later this year (my sailing pirogue has all the timber ready-only got to mark,measure,cut and assemble now! )
    Swale/Medway a lovely area with all the creeks and saltings.Sailing at 4kts would widen range of exploration and even bring Essex within range.
    Last edited by andre; 25th-September-2009 at 04:40 PM. Reason: spelling

  8. #8
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    Where can I find info on Kent meets and sea sailing in the SE, I have a pyranah ranger 16, but it's been gathering dust for a couple of years since I discovered the joys of fishing from SOTs. Perhaps its time for a paddle again, Steve.

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    The next post will be a picture

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    What a beauty



    This was early last march, the sea was so calm it just had to be done, I also went for a swim in my new dry suit, water temp was 6 degrees C, did not feel the cold at all. I like the look of action pacific sails, but a proper sailing rig looks too complicated, it would be easier just to buy a topper dinghy (other makes of dinghy are available).
    Last edited by pipes; 1st-October-2009 at 08:41 PM.

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    Default outrigger size ????

    Hi All. Doe's anybody have any idea what width outrigger should be. I have 14 foot Old Town and I am thinking of fitting a sail and, have no idea what sort of width these things should be. be safe.bigH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pipes View Post
    I like the look of action pacific sails, but a proper sailing rig looks too complicated, it would be easier just to buy a topper dinghy (other makes of dinghy are available).
    The biggest and most efficient rig from Solway Dory would cost 340 (a smaller, 30 square foot Bermudan would be 250), to which you could add anything from 80 for a clip on leeboard through 180 for a clip on leeboard and side-mounted rudder to 350+ for the all-singing, all dancing rudder and pivoting leeboard solution.

    Nothing overly complicated about the rig, but by all accounts it's a great setup: will confirm when we've got ours fitted and tested.

    By contrast, simple dinghies like the topper would appear to start from something like 1,800.... and I'm not sure a Topper would be as well suited to the sort of expedition sailing you can do with an open canoe and a decent sailing rig

    Quote Originally Posted by bigH View Post
    Doe's anybody have any idea what width outrigger should be.
    Solway Dory's are shown here: lots of other photos through their site.

    Todd Bradshaw discusses them briefly in "Canoe Rig: the essence and the art". He doesn't like them, but recommends getting "plans, a kit, or a finished set from one of the sea kayak and canoe makers" but then speculates about building them with a "narrow, flat, rockered bottom and flared sides, like long skinny dories" rather than in the more conventional manner!

    He reckons the akas should be laminated and a minimum of 2"x2" or 1.25"x3" in cross section, and says typical dimensions for the outriggers themselves are are 6'-8' long and 8"-10" beam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham76 View Post
    Hi All,

    For many years I have dabbled with cruising dinghies waiting for the time when my wife would finally agree to risking herself on the briny.
    However with increasing age and ever-more frequent strong breezes I have had to accept that this will not happen.

    And then I realised that a canoe might be a solution - probably more stable and certainly something one can enjoy in almost any breeze.
    Even better if a sail could be put up during light breezes!
    i would have expected a sailing dinghie to be more stable than a canoe when sailed.
    i haven't tried sailing a canoe yet but would certainly love to give it a go so don't get me wrong, i'm absolutely not trying to talk you out of it. it's a great idea! i'm not sure, however, why your wife would get in to a sailing canoe if she doesn't like the idea of a dinghie?

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    Default

    [QUOTE=Graham76;214455]Hi All,

    For many years I have dabbled with cruising dinghies waiting for the time when my wife would finally agree to risking herself on the briny.
    However with increasing age and ever-more frequent strong breezes I have had to accept that this will not happen

    An open canoe can do fine, but bear in mind that on sea you,ll have to deal also with waves, so if what you want is a sail rig that can take you both up and downwind, you will also have to be ready to use your bodies as counter-weight with some agility, thus, thinking for your wife, maybe it would be advisable to adapt some kind of stabilisers, like a trimaran. Try rigging something simple to go downwind first. If you enjoy it, you, ll certainly want to sail upwind too, for sometimes it takes you an hour to paddle one way, and only fifteen minutes to sail back the other way, which, of course, puts a limit to the ammount of enjoyment you get in exchange.

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    Default DIY outriggers

    Most of my paddling is on the tidal harbours around Portsmouth so I am in the process of adapting my SF Christine canoe for sailing. So far I have just made the outriggers and they passed the water test a couple of days ago on the Chichester canal.
    I have more or less copied the Solway Dory philosophy of two floats supported a few inches out of the water by a spar bolted to a thwart. The floats are 47" long made from the foam core of a windsurfer board. The spar is 84" long 2" x 1" pine from B&Q. This cross-section is probably a bit undersized. In the water test (no pictures) I put all my weight on the spar and it held.
    Here are some pictures

    I screwed and epoxied plywood pads to each end of the spar


    9mm dia attachment dowels


    Sorry these pictures are out of sequence

    The assembled outriggers sit on the canoe gunwhales and are
    fixed to the thwart with M6 bolts


    I used elastic bands, the type to attach wings to model aircraft
    to hold the floats to the spar

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham76 View Post
    Hi All,
    And then I realised that a canoe might be a solution - probably more stable and certainly something one can enjoy in almost any breeze.
    Even better if a sail could be put up during light breezes!

    It didn't take long to discover that a second-hand Canadian canoe might be the answer but a search produced few local offers with most in the North. Even eBay has very few in the South.

    And when I do find one will it be easy to fit a rudder - the mast etc looks relatively simple - or am I wrong?

    Any suggestions?

    Most of the useful comments so far have assumed my canoe will be on a river up North but where I live the sea is the obvious place.

    The Swale/Medway/ is quite well sheltered but the ever-increasing wind has made solo dinghy sailing more and more problematic. But with a canoe I could go out in almost any weather and put up a sail if the breeze was found to be gentle - just for once!

    Are there no canoe activities in the South? All I have found seems far away from me!

    Graham
    Hi Graham

    I sail both a Wanderer dinghy and a sailing canoe. In my experience to date, the sailing canoe is more stable than the dinghy but only when the outriggers are fitted. It's also easier to deal with in strong winds.

    However, I find that the dinghy is a dryer sail than the canoe when sailing close to the wind in anything over a force 4.

    I sailed the canoe in Dartmouth this week and the wind speed was gusting at a good force 6. It proved to be an exciting sail and the little boat did us proud. But in winds this strong canoe sailing is not for the faint hearted!

    Here's a link to a blogg of mine that might give you some ideas if you proceed with the idea.

    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...-Canoe-Sailing

    Regards

    Steve C

  17. #17
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    Default outriggers

    [QUOTE=jimegret;237690]Most of my paddling is on the tidal harbours around Portsmouth

    Thanks for the photos. I think that the parts for your outriggers are fine, but I don,t feel so happy with the way you are joining the spar to the floaters, unless its only for a test. It seems resistant enough to withstand the preasures they may have to deal with, but wouldn,t be better using thumb bolts -I think that is what they are called in english-, instead of wood pegs and tape?
    Juan.

  18. #18
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    Default

    Hi Juan,
    I got the idea of dowels and lashings to secure the floats from Gary Dierking's book "Building Outrigger Sailing Canoes". Four elastic bands for each float makes assembly very quick.
    Jim

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    Here's another type of rig. Your can buy them commercially, though some members make their own. The photo was taken at Poole Harbour on a day when we had F4 headwinds.


    In interesting video about canoe sailing here. It's about international competition but shows what can be done.
    And thou shalt have a paddle De 23:13

  20. #20
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    Well you've certainly found two virtually opposite ends of the sailing canoe spectrum there, Luke!!
    From the ridiculous to the sublime in many people's view, I suspect. Which is which is a matter of taste and philosophy.
    For me neither is any good because one is a toy and the other is a racing machine. I want my canoe and rig to actually work for both paddling and sailing so I can go on decent day or multi-day excursions. You won't be paddling an IC10 down a river, or anywhere really; and you won't be covering 20 or 30 miles in a day with a pocket hankerchief, especially upwind. A decent rig with decent performance has to weigh more and be more complicated than many canoeists are willing to go with - so let them paddle most of the time, I say. I will often choose routes that allow me to sail most of the time and do not involve portaging more than a little, and usually with a trolley, at that.
    You pays your money (+/or weight!) and takes your choice!

  21. #21

    Default sailing canoe/kayak

    sailing a kayak or canoe can be done with a simple home made sail
    like this one made out of the back of a beach tent on my valley knordkapp


    that sail worked so well and it inspired on
    to this--will be ready for summer 2010
    http://kayakmaran.pbworks.com/FrontPage
    preparation is everything--oh dear,where,s the

  22. #22

    Default

    I am hoping that I may be able to use my Apache 14 as a sailing canoe when I have fitted her out after the hull arrives at the end of Feb.

    I have an Opi rig already so will use that. Here is an Opi rig from the Selway Fisher site



    For a rudder my favourite design due to it's neatness and small size is the clasp knife rudder from a Duckworks article.



    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/...lasp/index.htm

    For a leeboard, since I will be uncertain where it should be, some sort of throw over leeboard could be best at first. I found the throw over style used on my MacGregor Canoe was pretty hard work to use , so may do something like Solway Dory have designed as a clip on. Not sure how it swivels though if it grounds.



    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/accessories/

    Solway Dory also have really produced the goods with their outriggers. Their canoes are 40" wide, so my Apache 14 will need something like them.



    Buoyancy bags will be standard Opi ones.

    So that's my thinking - pivoting throw over leeboard needed!!!

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    For a leeboard, since I will be uncertain where it should be, some sort of throw over leeboard could be best at first. I found the throw over style used on my MacGregor Canoe was pretty hard work to use , so may do something like Solway Dory have designed as a clip on. Not sure how it swivels though if it grounds.
    I'm no expert, but my understanding is that you EITHER have a pivoting leeboard (4' long and clamped very securely on one side) OR you have a clip-on leeboard (shorter, easily re-located for trim, switched from side to side when you tack and just riding up / coming adrift if you ground).

    If you've not already got it, I'd recommend consulting Todd Bradshaw's "Canoe Rig: The Essence and the Art: Sailpower for Antique and Traditional Canoes" - it's a stunningly beautiful book that's full of insight.
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Solway Dory also have really produced the goods with their outriggers. Their canoes are 40" wide, so my Apache 14 will need something like them.
    In fairness, neither Solway Dory NOR Todd Bradshaw would suggest you "need" outriggers: Bradshaw only mentions them because he knows people will want to make them despite his advice... and IIRC, Solway Dory started offering them for much the same reason!

    You'll see a lot of outriggers in the photos of the OCSG expeditions off the west coast of Scotland... but I'm not expecting to see so many at OCSG meets in the Lake District and so on. If you're going to sail in the Solent then fair enough (I've nothing against them)... but I'd hate for people to think that you can only use a quality sailing rig with outriggers on your canoe!

    ps. I'm pretty sure Dave Stubbs said he'd no outriggers fitted at the Bala meet where he and a.n.other (I'm guessing at Dave Poskitt) sailed upwind in a Force 7... and the photos on the OCSG site show folk in more moderate winds sailing quite "normal" open canoes with no outriggers.
    Last edited by GregandGinaS; 4th-February-2010 at 12:30 PM.

  24. #24

    Default

    [/QUOTE] you've not already got it, I'd recommend consulting Todd Bradshaw's "Canoe Rig: The Essence and the Art: Sailpower for Antique and Traditional Canoes"

    ps. I'm pretty sure Dave Stubbs said he'd no outriggers fitted at the Bala meet where he and a.n.other (I'm guessing at Dave Poskitt) sailed upwind in a Force 7... and the photos on the OCSG site show folk in more moderate winds sailing quite "normal" open canoes with no outriggers.[/I][/QUOTE]

    I have Todd Bradshaw's terrific book. It's so beautifully illustrated I thought at first it was a coffee table type book, then after owning two sailing canoes I realised what a fantastic technical book it is. He is a very helpful guy as well. gave me huge amount of help when I was trying to understand sailmaking, seam shaping and all the black arts. I use Sailcut4 to design sails and so far have made two. One with two full length battens which worked out great and one simple unbattened one which was more unstable.

    The two Dave's have been sailing canoes for very many years. I have sailed for many years but not in sailing canoes. Most OCSG members seem to sort of dislike the outriggers but they work so well on the sea they still buy them.

    Their canoe designs are 40" wide with very firm bilges, almost vertical sides. I found their Curlew lovely to sail and very confidence inspiring. My MacGregor at 31" gave me a pasting in slightly too strong a wind, even though it was reefed.

    In the US Hugh Horton sticks to 36" with his Bufflehead, wanting to keep to a 50:50 sailing canoe, whereas the two Dave's with all their experience use 40" and very firm shapes. Looking at the 1870's bible on sailing my son owns, the sailing canoes of that period had hull shapes just like Solway are using now. I guess their hulls are 70:30 sailing biased.

    I do not even know what the beam of an Apache 14 is, must be less than a MacGregor. It is after all a 100% paddling canoe, so adding a rig is asking a lot, and outriggers could be pretty essential. No problem trying without though in the shallow waters of Keyhaven.

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    ....
    I do not even know what the beam of an Apache 14 is, must be less than a MacGregor. It is after all a 100% paddling canoe, so adding a rig is asking a lot, and outriggers could be pretty essential. No problem trying without though in the shallow waters of Keyhaven.

    Brian
    I'd not want to put money on that.
    Canoeing as a recognized sport dates back to 1865-66, when Capt. John MacGregor made his first cruises in the original Rob Roys, small paddling canoes of 14 feet length, 26 inches beam and about 8 1/2 inches depth amidships
    http://www.intcanoe.org/iclife/hist/...1880-1900.html

    http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/canoe/wee_lassie_log.htm << see "Wee Lassie" an updated take on the MacGregor.

    The Originals use a double paddle and had the paddler sitting on the bottom boards - a very stable arrangement.

    http://www.raidengland.org/ <<< I saw this and thought

  26. #26
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    Default Outriggers and stuff

    I was reluctant to start using outriggers for some years but have been won over especially for more exposed waters and conditions such as coastal trips and larger lakes when it's blowing say a 4 or more. If I think I can get by without them I do, but as I get older and less agile/fit then their use for ease of self rescue, or moreover vastly reducing the chance of needing to self rescue, makes them a desirable/necessary "evil"! Back in 1994 I did my first coastal trip (http://homepages.rya-online.net/ocsg...-Portree_1.htm) without outriggers and looking back I realise it was fairly bold - we did sail with care and were reefed much of the time but there were some long exposed legs where I would definitely want the support and reassurance of outriggers these days. Most of the time they are not actually in the water but they act as a safety valve, providing a few seconds grace in a gust, buying you enough time to hike out more or spill wind or whatever. The sort of conditions we encountered crossing from Loch Sunart to Tobermory show the kind of thing I mean:http://www.youtube.com/profile?gl=GB.../5/aCD4biPhnG8

    I now sail a Penobscot 186 with a slightly longer centre thwart than standard, making the beam around 39". It is still pretty much a paddling canoe that can be sailed effectively when I want to. It's the black one - OC9 - in one of Solway Dory's videos (25-45 secs and 2:35-3:06mins ): http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/videos/15

    We (as in the Open Canoe Sailing Group - I'm the Commodore! - don't laugh, I know it sounds pompous...) will be sorting out and publishing our programme of events soon. Anyone interested is most welcome to come along and have a look and maybe a try out/spin round the bay! Keep an eye on the events page of our website: http://homepages.rya-online.net/ocsg...ent_events.htm

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougR View Post

    http://www.raidengland.org/ <<< I saw this and thought
    This new Raid actually starts from Keyhaven where I sail from. Iheard about it just before Christmas and got in touch with George, one of the organisers, who now lives locally and would like to see a Solent event.

    They are planning for just 20 ish boats, in three classes large Whalers, mid size Oughtred types and a class of the local Scows. They are open to another group as well as long as that group brought the resources needed to support it. For instance, if a group of rowing Gigs joined in and brought a rescue boat they would add a class for Gigs.

    I thought about the adventurous OCSG and what they get up to in Scotland unsupported. I hinted to George that it might be fun to add a sailing canoes as a class. they could do with an event in the Solent. I got a negative - possibly George has not seen what the OCSG get up to.

    I nearly contacted the two Dave's but held back after the negative response. Perhaps if the OCSG were interested they might express that view and I could go back to George.

    It will be a super event, Keyhaven down to Cowes on the Thursday, Cowes to Bealieu, Bealieu back to Keyhaven is the sort of itinary.

    I would love to do it my my Scow but I have a balance issue which means if I sail in heavy weather I am fairly rough the next day. So day racing/sailing is OK, but cannot sail for 3 days unless it's not too windy. (hence the outriggers for a canoe!)

    Brian

  28. #28

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    Could I ask a question about seat position for a paddling and sailing canoe being fitted out for single handing with only one seat. Reading the fitting out a grp thread, the seat is positioned about 12" back from the mid point.

    Dave from Solway has previously advised me that for a sailing canoe fit out the front of the seat edge should be placed at the centre of gravity of the canoe hull. With a symetrical 14' hull, it seems the seat edge might be placed at 7' back for sailing balance but perhaps nearlly 8' for paddling.

    I also read that moving forward and aft for paddling with the wind ahead or aft helps to keep the boat tracking better.

    Would putting the single seat on rails to allow for movement for and aft be a good idea, or can forum members advice a single position which is best.

    Thinking of a mast thwart at 4' back?

    Hope it's not too much thread drift - I will be paddling and sailing on the sea!

    Brian

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    ....
    Would putting the single seat on rails to allow for movement for and aft be a good idea, or can forum members advice a single position which is best.

    Thinking of a mast thwart at 4' back?

    Hope it's not too much thread drift - I will be paddling and sailing on the sea!

    Brian
    This shows the use of a sliding seat for trim adjustment on a tandem.
    http://www.wenonah.com/products/temp...a74ff8ee59cb5d

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougR View Post
    This shows the use of a sliding seat for trim adjustment on a tandem.
    http://www.wenonah.com/products/temp...a74ff8ee59cb5d
    The Wenonah sliding seat is what I was going to mention, but other options exist. Stacks of relevant discussion on Paddling.net: different constructions at different weights and with different mounting arrangements.

    You still need to get the position right though. From what I've gleaned on other forums... the best approach involves being afloat, sat on a pedestal (pretty much anything) and with a cupful of water in the bottom of the (empty) hull.

    When fitting a fixed seat the aim, as I understand it, is to have the puddle well infront of you when stationary (canoe bow-down), then just infront of you / around your knees (canoe trimmed level) at normal paddling speeds. This allows (at the very least) for your build, for whether you sit or kneel and for how high you perch.

    Rule of thumb seems to be somewhere 4"-6" aft of the mid point of the hull.

    If you're going for a slider I guess the answer is to paddle in the wind at your normal pace with the pedestal (upturned bucket, whatever) at different positions to see what wind effect you get. IIRC, others have found 4" forward of the "neutral" trim is quite commonly enough for paddling into the wind... but if you do searches on Solotripping you'll dig up far more than I can recall here - including photos of some outstanding home built sliding seats.

  31. #31

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    Thanks for the tip about 4" to 6" back from the midpoint. The Solotripping forum is very usuful for me, with my complete lack of canoe paddling experience. Very strong views that all solo boats should have adjustable seats to ensure balance in head winds, stern winds and loaded situation. For paddling on the sea, I know how much a rudder help keep the MacGregor on track, Without the rudder most of the strokes were on one side. I can see how moving forward would help the bow stay in the wind and the stern move away to also help. So a sliding seat it will be.

    I very much want to fit out my Apache 14 (being moulded next week!!) for paddling but taking into account that later I will be very tempted to try and create my perfect fun machine.

    That would be a light car top boat that can be paddled, rowed and sailed. The secret will be to keep things simple and clean. Searching around on the internet comes up with lots of canoe sailing and canoe rowing blogs but some are very untidy and somewhat over complicated. One that had worked out a rowing sliding seat arrangement, said the next project was to create a simpler fixed seat arrangement.

    If I could describe a general arrangement I have come up with, I would be very grateful for comments about where I may be going wrong.

    Working from the bows,

    1.05 size air bag available for 17 on ebay

    Sailing issues

    mast thwart 4' back from bow, for my Opi rig

    Dagger board to be a clip on gunnel type shown in the earlier post. This will be 2' back from the mast thwart - but easily moved forward or back after trials.

    For sailing Dave at Solway advised front edge of seat at centre of gravity, ie hull midpoint in this case.

    If outriggers fitted, then the outrigger beams fit over the mast thwart at the 4' from the bows position. The outrigger beam about 8' wide, perhaps slightly shorter at 7' for this smaller rig.

    Rudder the clasp knife design with a norwegian tiller coming up to the helmsman.

    Rowing



    Looking at the plans for Adirondak Guideboats, the seat is placed dead middle of the boat. So for rowing this is the best place.



    A design of narrow rowing boat which is very canoe looking is the Canadian Brightsides design.



    Looking at the data for this gives some idea of the ergonomics required.

    As stated, for rowing, with the seat at midpoint, then rowlocks would be 11" back from the rear of the seat edge. Seat height something like 8" with the seat height about 5" below the rowlock height. Foot braces would be about 1'9" back from the rear seat edge.

    Rowlock width.

    Looking at the Solway Dory picture



    if you look back along the gunnel from the outriggers, just past the leeboard you will see two black flat things. These are carbon rowing outriggers with give the extra beam needed. The Adirondack is 38" beam and rows very well. So I will need something to provide at least 4" rowing outriggers on each side. Now a US company make a beautiful item which extends the oarlock by 4" but it costs more than my canoe.



    Paddling

    For paddling the seat may need to go further back than for sailing, 4" to 6". So perhaps a sliding seat with 12" adjustment from midpoint of the hull back.

    Rear section of boat.

    A further thwart 4' from the stern, and another air bag 1.05 size. The distance between the two thwarts, and airbags, will be 6', so allowing the storage of 6' oars, possibly a bit more.

    Summary

    Everything sort of fits ok on this first look. No clashes of needs. To begin with, just for paddling I can fit the gunnels, two thwarts 4' from each end and air bags, and be flexible on seat position. Is there a sort of foam bucket I could sit on for paddling in a kneeling position and sitting on as well?

    Also, anyone know of a 4" spread rowlock fitting like the Solway Dory, or US item that is affordable and can fit normal gunnels?

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 6th-February-2010 at 03:44 PM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    ......
    Also, anyone know of a 4" spread rowlock fitting like the Solway Dory, or US item that is affordable and can fit normal gunnels?

    Brian

    Not exactly but Dave has a similar contraption on "Ruth" which fastens into the gunwale structure



    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...php?t=109146#8

    I suspect that a fairly stiff gunwale structure is needed for rowing.

    Just a thought.
    I noticed that the picture of the Solway dory craft seems to show side buoyancy tanks - which might be an ideal place to support a movable thwart...

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougR View Post
    Not exactly but Dave has a similar contraption on "Ruth" which fastens into the gunwale structure



    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...php?t=109146#8

    I suspect that a fairly stiff gunwale structure is needed for rowing.

    Just a thought.
    I noticed that the picture of the Solway dory craft seems to show side buoyancy tanks - which might be an ideal place to support a movable thwart...
    Thanks for that, I had missed those short outriggers on Ruth.

    All Solway's current decked boats have parallel sides to the cockpits and an adjustable seat running along a batten fixed to each side of the cockpit.

    Brian

  34. #34

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    Dave's reply on the outriggers for Ruth,

    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...1&postcount=23

    Brian

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    Brian
    May I offer another couple of comments about your plans based on my experience of sailing canoes?

    • An Optimist rig is a convenient, ready made "solution" but they are not reefable in any realistic way so you are stuck with an all or nothing size of sail. This is likely to be quite a handful in fresh breezes and not enough in light airs - but at least you'll be able to row it then...
    • The "clasp-knife rudder is a well tried and tested concept - I have made something similar myself for a couple of different boats over the years. But the blade area in the picture is not big enough and I would advise scaling it up, even if it ends up being somewhat less neat when in the raised position. A rough guideline for rudder area is 2% of sail area and remember this is for area actually in the water.

  36. #36

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    Thanks Keith those points are well made.

    I would like to use the Opi rig simply because I have it, it's "brand new old stock" so to speak, supplied with an Opi kit in 1987 and never built. My thought are as with yours, simply remove the rig if it's too windy. If things worked out then I would make a small lug mainsail and spars and use the Opi rig on another favourite design of mine - the West Mersea Duck Punt which uses the Opi rig, with no rudder and no centreboard at all!!



    Check out some of the lovely videos here.

    http://www.duckpunt.org.uk/

    Solway's very neat and well resolved rolling the main around the mast works so well, as I saw when I had the chance to sail on a Shearwater at the Beale Show.

    Thanks also for the tip about scaling up the clasp knife rudder. Will do.

    Brian

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    I've just posted this thread in the Blogg section. But as it is exactly about what this thread started about I've put a link here.

    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...by-Canoe-Saing

    Regards

    Steve C

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    Exclamation

    My usual reason for paddling out to sea is to catch my tea but I didn't fancy anchoring up and being side on to a choppy sea so went for my first sailing session instead with the Pacific action 2.2M sail I recently bought on ebay. The kayak is a perception freedom SOT which at barely 13ft, I was expecting to be a bit unstable with the near 7ft sail. I'm glad to say though that the whole thing was much easier than I expected, with no sense of any tendency to capsize while beam on to the wind and waves. I'm going to try a few modifications to help keep the large sail in position like a pole to hold the windward 'sheet'? out while on a beam reach as it tends to collapse when held down at a low angle, and cos I got arm ache holding the sail in place.
    The next plan is to fit it to the open canoe which has been gathering dust for a year.







    Had a go at making a video, pics a bit fogged up but you get the idea.


  39. #39

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    i have thoroughly enjoyed this thread,i love sailing.I have been looking at sailing canoes and find the concept very attractive.i have done a fare bit of solo sailing and i am looking to downsize from a 26ft power sailer to a canoe.

    The Opi rig that some of you are using looks very close in design to a chinese junk rig.There is a small sailing boat race that involves long distance sailing on craft as small as 18ft and as large as 30 ft,there are a lot of guys who swear by the Junk rig as its very easy to reef when the wind blows.

    Keith,im going to have a look at your website and see if i can sort out a date.

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    Default Opi rigs are not like junk rigs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bastonjock View Post
    The Opi rig that some of you are using looks very close in design to a chinese junk rig.There is a small sailing boat race that involves long distance sailing on craft as small as 18ft and as large as 30 ft,there are a lot of guys who swear by the Junk rig as its very easy to reef when the wind blows.

    Keith,im going to have a look at your website and see if i can sort out a date.
    Although the Opi rig may look like a junk rig, it is nothing like it in practice. The junk rig is often multi-battened and can be reduced in size easily and progressively, whereas the Opi cannot - it is all or nothing and many versions are not easy to derig whilst on the water. This is a fundamental disadvantage that I find unacceptable in a sailing rig for a canoe.
    Last edited by windorpaddle; 5th-June-2010 at 10:04 AM. Reason: format glitch

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    <snip>

    I very much want to fit out my Apache 14 (being moulded next week!!) for paddling but taking into account that later I will be very tempted to try and create my perfect fun machine.

    That would be a light car top boat that can be paddled, rowed and sailed. The secret will be to keep things simple and clean.

    <snip>

    Brian
    Hi Brian,
    How are your plans coming along? I have been enjoying my 16 ft apache and am wondering how easy it might be to adapt it for a bit of sailing without compromising it as a lovely paddling boat.
    Looking forward to reading about your experiences.
    All the best,
    Ian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham76 View Post
    Hi All,

    For many years I have dabbled with cruising dinghies waiting for the time when my wife would finally agree to risking herself on the briny.
    However with increasing age and ever-more frequent strong breezes I have had to accept that this will not happen.

    And then I realised that a canoe might be a solution - probably more stable and certainly something one can enjoy in almost any breeze.
    Even better if a sail could be put up during light breezes!

    It didn't take long to discover that a second-hand Canadian canoe might be the answer but a search produced few local offers with most in the North. Even eBay has very few in the South.

    And when I do find one will it be easy to fit a rudder - the mast etc looks relatively simple - or am I wrong?

    Any suggestions?

    Most of the useful comments so far have assumed my canoe will be on a river up North but where I live the sea is the obvious place.

    The Swale/Medway/ is quite well sheltered but the ever-increasing wind has made solo dinghy sailing more and more problematic. But with a canoe I could go out in almost any weather and put up a sail if the breeze was found to be gentle - just for once!

    Are there no canoe activities in the South? All I have found seems far away from me!

    Graham
    fitting outriggers and sail rig is the first step.a spray cover at the bow helps too with water coming over the pointy end.we're in melbourne oz.i've only port philip bay or bass strait.we have a 2 horse 4stroke outboard as well.we're getting too old to paddle.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLICONIA54 View Post
    fitting outriggers and sail rig is the first step.a spray cover at the bow helps too with water coming over the pointy end.we're in melbourne oz.i've only port philip bay or bass strait.we have a 2 horse 4stroke outboard as well.we're getting too old to paddle.
    Good to hear you're out and about on the salty stuff over there as well - any pics to make us jealous??. I made a spray deck for the front third of my last canoe but haven't got round to doing it for my latest one.


    PS how's the cricket going - I heard something about your guys coming second the other day - that can't be right surely?

  44. #44
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    Default canoeing in the old salty.

    Quote Originally Posted by windorpaddle View Post
    Good to hear you're out and about on the salty stuff over there as well - any pics to make us jealous??. I made a spray deck for the front third of my last canoe but haven't got round to doing it for my latest one.


    PS how's the cricket going - I heard something about your guys coming second the other day - that can't be right surely?
    Sorry no pics yet.I was born in Wales,LOL Bout time the Aussies got their arses kicked.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLICONIA54 View Post
    Sorry no pics yet.I was born in Wales,LOL Bout time the Aussies got their arses kicked.
    Oh right! I knew I was taking a risk assuming your were of the the green baggy cap sort!
    I, too, am from Welsh ancestry so we must stick together...

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