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Thread: Kneel or Sit

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    Default Kneel or Sit

    So do you kneel or sit in your canoe? I have tried kneeling in my canoes and it does feel a lot more stable etc but it is agony after a very short time. monkey_pork recommended a mat in another thread but I still find my feet get sore from the position they are in. Is this something that will change? Do your feet get used to it if you do it enough and does the blood eventually make it to your feet even when you are kneeling

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    Quote Originally Posted by John
    So do you kneel or sit in your canoe? I have tried kneeling in my canoes and it does feel a lot more stable etc but it is agony after a very short time. monkey_pork recommended a mat in another thread but I still find my feet get sore from the position they are in. Is this something that will change? Do your feet get used to it if you do it enough and does the blood eventually make it to your feet even when you are kneeling
    I find that I do fidget about a lot, you do need to be careful tho as you say, as your feet do suffer - depends on what you are wearing as how much fidgeting you can do too. I have very flexible feet, so I can spend ages sort of sitting on my heels almost with my toes in underneath me, but eventually I do have to kinda sit back on my feet - but that affects the top of my ankles, so I just get up and sit at the back of the boat, or stand up (no it's fine, really it is ...).

    I'm not a big fan of the half-kneeling, foot forward kinda position, I find it a bit awkward, but I have seen it used to great effect in the past.

  3. #3

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    Depends on the situation - but thats the beauty of open boats - if you get uncomfortable just get up and go for a walk around.

    Try doing that in a sea kayak!

    One tip when kneeling in the centre of the boat is to sit astride your dry bag like a saddle so all of your weight isnt on your knees and you can kneel more upright - it seems to let blood flow more easily to your feet too.

    Knee pads help - the rubber ones sold in screwfix grip very well and are pretty cheap - just dont get any hardshell ones or you'll slide about the bottom of the boat all day.

    george

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    I've just had another thought - why not have a look at a minicell pedestal.
    I have a fixed version in my Outrage, but I did think about getting another one, and not [permanently] fixing it into my Disco'. Dunno how I missed that thought earlier

    It could be tied in to give you some stability, and moved around, or removed entirely if you needed it. It would make a good camp stool too in the evenings.

    It would give you an ideal base to half sit, half kneel - a non fixed version may give you issues with the placement of a kneeling pad tho' - I'd need to try it first to see how it works out, so at this stage it might remain just a thought ...

    Minicell is a magical material too, very comfy, remains warm, doesn't take up water, and you can shape it with abrasive papers too, to get it 'just' the right shape.

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    That is certainly a thought. I think I am likely to remain a seated paddler most of the time but I think a good kneeling mat may be a worthwhile but for my occasional kneeling bouts and I can use it as an insulated seat when an land.

    Still trying to work myself up to spending £30+ on a mat

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiKelly
    Still trying to work myself up to spending £30+ on a mat
    It is a frightening price for a bit of old foam I must say ...but hmm, I know I couldn't kneel without one.

    Just a word of caution on using it on shore - I wouldn't rate it's puncture resistance - it's not inflatable of course, so it won't matter like *that* - but I wouldn't like any holes in mine - if you pick up grit and stuff, it'll chafe the inside of your hull too ... a usual check around on the ground first will do it tho'

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    I promise not to use the "I" word much but I kneel in the the inflatable If I want to really put some power into the strokes.

    It's really comfy for about ten minutes then your legs are stone dead no matter how comfy the setup might be.

  8. #8

    Default Kneeling mat or trousers??

    I tend not to use a mat, purely because my local shop doesn't have any, they are very expensive and when the going gets tough my knees always seem to miss the mat!!! LOL

    I have found that a pair of Sig Tac Tactical trousers does the job nicely. They are 98% cotton and 2% spandex so they stretch. They have two cargo pockets with vertical zips so the pocket can be accessed when sitting. But the best thing is they come with removable knee pads!!! Live safer.

    I introduced Sandbender to a pair and I'm sure he will back me up when I say they are great!!

    They are quite hard to get hold of in the UK for under £40 so send me an email if you have any problems.

    Richie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    I introduced Sandbender to a pair and I'm sure he will back me up when I say they are great!!
    It's true, they are very comfy, in fact I'm wearing a pair right now


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    LOL So am I!!!!!!!

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    I have a few pairs of 5.11 trousers and they have also got "pockets" in the knees for pads. I got a set of pads to try out and if you kneel on them they are fairly comfy, however, due to my lanky legs when I kneel the trousers ride up to the extent that the pads are in front of and above my knees but not under them .

    You can get the trousers in nylon or cotton so with the nylon ones you do not have to worry about the heat loss so much when they are wet.

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    Ok, another thought, having looked carefully at how I actually do paddle ...

    I realise now that a bit of my weight is taken on the thwart that runs behind me (when I kneel in the middle of the boat), so I do kneel, but with my tail just kinda resting a little on that thwart, which must take some of the pressure off.

    Maybe have a look at fitting an extra thwart, they'll take being sat on too, at a push (maybe)...

    Following on from the immediately above posting - I'd really not be comfortable about paddling in cotton trousers at this time of year, getting wet like that would be grim, potentially quite serious too.

    I paddled a very still, and very cold River yesterday, and as usual in the winter, I had on a pair of Immersion Research legs, under my Nookie bib n' brace, which is then velcro'ed around my boots. The IR stuff is a single sided brushed synthetic material (like powerstretch), stays warm even when it's wet, and doesn't take up much water anyway (rings out ok by hand). The bib is water-proof (hmm, described as breathable ...), and is great protection for this type of paddling. I always have a spare set of the IR legs in my dry bag (err, in my dry bag) - plus they are great to sleep in, once the temperature slips away (I'm thinking winter bivi here).

    I also own some Nookie 'extreme' dry trousers for use in the Outrage, and I've swum in them (plus my ww cag) and stayed completely dry. They'd be vile on a touring trip tho', so I only mention them in passing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiKelly
    you do not have to worry about the heat loss so much when they are wet.
    You told me you never get wet!



    I use my sig pants in the summer, or a pair of cycling shorts. In the winter I use Buffalos lightweight tops and trousers, which keep me very warm even in driving rain.

    http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/lsmain.htm

    Oh and I kneel mostly and use the foam pad from the back of my Sabre 45 rucksack as a knee pad.

  14. #14

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    Kneel or sit?

    Paddling with John in the tsunami infested Loch Lomond at the weekend, i much preferred to kneel. it lets you pray at the same time.

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    Kneeling in a trad open should not cause problems with feet, only knees, on the assumption that you are using a kneeling thwart or seat edge, and that these are at a suitable height.

    What is a suitable height??? Well, it needs to be high enough to easily get your feet from under it in the event of a capsize, but low enough to take a fair bit of bum weight. If your feet are suffering either you are trying to kneel 'free' (ie without support) or the thwart etc is dangerously low.

    Knee pads. Try sewing pockets into your fleece (or whatever) under trousers and fit karrimat inside. That way the pads are always there no matter where you are in the boat, or whatever boat you are in. They are also there around camp etc, and do not suffer from having straps round the back of your legs.

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    Default Cheap mats

    If anyone's building road bridges in your area you can get closed cell offcuts, which I think they use for expansion joints. It usually blows all over & you can pick up huge bits, have made complete mat for the bottom of canoe, seat for safety boat, insoles for wellies & replacement springs for an autoharp out of them.
    And it's free

  17. #17

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    i dont know about matting/padding for an open boat, but in a kayak neprean (sp??? wetsuit mateiral) is often used as padding, i find that the boney bits of my ankles get rubbed raw on the bottom of my boat as my feet are fitted so tightly against my foot reast, but neoprean makes a good soft surface and it wont mind getting wet.. you can glue it down and as far as i know its only a couple of quid a meter..? would z couple of layers of this be any help?
    “Who can long watch the ceaseless lapping of a rivers current, without conceiving a desire to set himself adrift”

  18. #18

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    I have found a source of 60cm x 60cm square minicell sheet.Just like they sell in the canoe shops. This is 12mm thick with a non slip grid pattern on one side. Have bought a pack to outfit my canoes but have a few sheets left over. One sheet would make four knee pads or use whole as a plush solo mat. Drop me a PM if you would like to take some of my hands. £10 a sheet plus postage.

    Chris

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    I kneel 95% of the time - used to be a sitter but after getting the expensive mats what a difference!!

    much more solid and stable, better able to control the lean and much more comfy too as my back is properly aligned now - as an added bonus your profile now offers less wind resistance vital if your paddling up Loch Morar in a gale

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Randall
    I have found a source of 60cm x 60cm square minicell sheet.Just like they sell in the canoe shops. This is 12mm thick with a non slip grid pattern on one side. Have bought a pack to outfit my canoes but have a few sheets left over. One sheet would make four knee pads or use whole as a plush solo mat. Drop me a PM if you would like to take some of my hands. £10 a sheet plus postage.

    Chris
    How does minicell compare to ordinary foam, like the stuff you get in sleeping mats.

  21. #21

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    Minicell is the pukka stuff they sell in canoe shops for knee pads and for pedastal saddles.It is grey dense closed cell foam that does not compress over time. It offers much better support than layers of Karrimat. From memory a pair of flat Voyageur pads are around £15 to £20.

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    How does it wear? Does it tend to tear etc like normal foam?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiKelly
    How does it wear? Does it tend to tear etc like normal foam?
    It's a strange thing is minicell - I'll have a look in the cellar tomorrow and see if I've got a lump I can send you - very probably not an especially useable lump, but you'll get the feel for it ...

    I don't find that it wears especially quickly I have to say, any edges do get a bit softer, but that seems to be it for attritional wear - it does compress over time I've found tho', which unsurprisingly, is more noticeable on thinner pieces. It is quite susceptible to cuts and tears too I've found, so it needs a little bit of care, but probably no more that other similar materials.

    The trade-off is that it performs well i ncontect, it's warm and comfy, and can be cut, sanded and glued to shape, and despite all that I've said here, in *normal* use it does actually to seem pretty resilient.

    It comes in an assortment of sizing - thin planks can be used for things like deadening sound or as insulation - (like you'd need if you had an aluminium boat [or an old diesel car] !), or thicker stuff for more comfort in the cockpit, kneeling areas, for example. It comes in preformed shapes too, which mostly seem to end up in WW boats - the Mike Yee outfitting site has good clear pictures of it. I use lots of it in my Outrage, and it seems to live up to the bashing it gets in there.

    It is quite similar to the closed cell sleep mats, but I'd say that it's at an even higher density.

  24. #24

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    Well theres alot of factors to consider but generally i paddle seated with my legs out in front, and turned slightly to my paddle side.
    White water and waves or playing about I'll kneel, but my feet go to sleep after a while.
    My feet have become more accustomed to kneeling the more paddling I do. but generally a keep my legs out in front so i can move them around easily.
    Footwear also makes a difference. Any tight footwear will help numb your feet, similarly footwear that creases over your ankle will also cut off circulation.
    Knee pads in my experience are a bit of a pain. I have some chunky skateboarding ones that once again cut off the circulation. The B&Q cheapy foam ones seem to be the best idea if you want to go down that route.
    I swear by a foam mat for kneeling on. I was lucky enough to get hold of an entire swimming pool cover of closed cell foam, so have various pieces in different sizes (also great for lying on under the car) its slightly thicker than carry mat tho virtually the same stuff.
    I'd also recommend cutting a piece for the seat if you have any spare. IT makes the world of difference on a long paddle.
    The other thing I intend to get is the roll up nylon like backrest/seat you can get that fits a thermarest or similar. I blagged one for our Scottish expedition this summer and cut a piece of foam to fit, then used foam to Kneel on, and as a seat when ashore, and if your back starts aching its a great addition for a bit of back support when paddling.
    sorry wandering off thread a bit, but nearly finished.

    I would not recommend cotton for wearing paddling, it offers absolutely no insulation when it gets wet.
    the old maxim - "Cotton kills when your in the hills" gets added to with "and on the river it makes you shiver"
    I guess thats for another thread tho really....

    Cheers
    My 2ps worth

    Rich

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    rather than expensive kneeling pads i use a roll mat which you can use at camp.

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    Default Kneel or sit

    Either suits me it may depend on a few factors though Weather & water,solo or tandem or type of canoe.Kneeling is great for power -Alan and I overtook a barge on the canal one afternoon . Grooveski or stretching your legs if paddling tandem chill out for a wee while let your paddling partner take over.As Doc says kneeling is great for praying in wind but as you are lower in the canoe it is also a plus.Good points by Tenboats about height and easily getting feet out from under the seat in the event of a capsize. Luckily for us when we were paddling an Old Town Discovery Scout and sitting the wind caught us and flipped the canoe right over so all three of us ended up in the Loch .So Monkey Pork heavy canoe but no feet trapped that day.
    Pros and cons with everything we have fitted air bags and there is not much room up front now for kneeling now but I think they are an essential piece of gear for paddling.

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    Default Sit or Knell

    If you want a cheap alternative to minicell - I am 6'4" and 17stone so kneeling can be a bit of a problem - tried leaning back against the edge of the seat when tandem paddling but found this too low and difficulty getting feet in/out - also too far back to trim the canoe properly, given that most of the paddlers in the front are smaller than me. I found a solution by getting a plastic storage crate, turning it upside down and duct-taping some karrimat onto it. The crate needs to be quite narrow - I use one that came from ASDA some years ago which I think is actually used as a shopping basket in the store. The advantage is that it costs virtually nothing and can be positioned anywhere in the boat in order to trim the boat either latitudinally or longitudinally. Obviously it is not fixed in and will not give the same level of control as a saddle but it has worked for me in water up to grade 3. When solo paddkling it just sits in the middle of the boat and for tandem paddling just in front of the rear seat. I can adjust the trim just by shuffling about.

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    The saddle idea does sound interesting. I must give it a try.

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    Why kneel? - because you can't jump out while kneeling.
    Sounds silly, but it is true. If you are sitting and the boat takes a wobble, your natural reaction (if sitting), just like slipping on a muddy slope, is to thrust your heel down. As Newton noted, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, all that happens is that you 'jump out of the boat' by pushing the boat from under you.
    But if you are kneeling you can't do that. Plus your center of gravity is lower so the boat is more stable any way.
    Now you know one way of choosing.

    To kneel comfortably, you need to take most of your weight, via your bottom, on a kneeling thwart. The thwart's height should be adjusted to you!
    I made up a simple 'helper', comprising a bit of old dado rail [a nice bit of oak] two side plates (scrap plywood) and two fore-aft feet (scrap 1"x1/2"). I set the height by resting the dado between two car axle stands and adjusting the height till comfy (kneeling on old bit of carpet). And at the same time used a couple of wedges to choose the slope angle. The lot was screwed together with those instant plastic fasteners. A couple of pieces of pipe lagging around the fore-aft feet to finish.
    It finally collapsed last week so now it is time to do a proper one.

    One of the comments at the Scottish Canoe show was that the kneeling thwart should NOT be so strong as to form a trap hazard if the boat gets wrapped around a rock with your leg still under the thwart.
    I will probably make the next one out of laminated pieces (probably 1" high, 1/2" wide) so that each piece can broken one at a time to get out in such a scenario.

  30. #30

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    I did much the same Phil when setting up my kneeling thwart. Mine is made of about 1" thick ash (as are most of the fittings), shaped down to be convex.
    With my boat i have attached it to underside of the inwhales (sp)about 20 inches back from the centre line. I have also fitted a removable carrying yoke, which allows much more room for movement/trimming.

    I am not concerned with snapping the thing in order to get out when capsized. My experience of wedging myself into kayaks has proved to me that without panicking getting out is quite easy upsidedown.

    I believe laminating wood together tends to make is stronger than a solid piece of wood of the same size - think plywood compared to pine.

    Cheers
    Rich

  31. #31

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    Would not recommend plywood. The layers in a ply sheet have the grain running at right angles to one another. As all the load in a narrow plank (like a thwart) is trying to bend/snap the plank then all your wood fibres need to placed to oppose that - by using ply you would in effect be losing half the thickness of your wood. A laminate of strips of wood all running the length of the thwart would be excellent but would take a lot of work and not really gain you that much. A hi-tech option would be to laminate a strip of glass tape to the underside of the thwart with boat building epoxy. Even better would be kevlar or carbon uni directional tape as the are even stronger in tension. You could then get away with a much thinner (and lighter) thwart.
    "All right" said Eeyore "We're going. Only don't blame me"

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    Default Sit or Kneel

    Much like the Viking I'm 6'5" and 17st but I try to kneel as much as possible. Fitting a kneeling thwart and using a kneeling mat is the way to go. I bought the mat from Aiquille Alpine Equipment http://www.aiguillealpine.co.uk/ and along with the thwart has made a massive difference to my comfort.
    Regarding the thwart, I made mine from ash, 3/4" thick and 4 1/2" wide at the centre( to accomadate my big ass) narrowing to 2" at the ends.
    Pete
    Last edited by garetine; 1st-January-2006 at 07:12 PM.

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    ->Rich,
    The bit about making the thwart 'snappable' was because of comments from a couple of instructors about real entrapments they had had. When the boat rolls over and is wedged against a rock the water forces are many tons and the base of the boat collapses trapping the foot between the collapsed base and the thwart (rigidly attached to the gunwhale).
    Luckily in both cases the pupil had their head above water. In both cases the rescuse saw had to be used, in one case to cut through the gunwhale, round the royalex and back up through the gunwhale to release the thwart and the rather bedraggeled but thankfull pupil (I'll find the web page eventually) recovered. Anna Gordon at BeyondAdventure is doing a study of the problem.

    ->Chris,
    Plywood: yes, it was a bit of scrap!

    Philip
    Last edited by philipoakley; 2nd-January-2006 at 12:46 PM.

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    The links for the two instructors are http://cknifton.co.uk/index.html and http://www.beyondadventure.co.uk/Text/BAstaff.html#Anna
    I am sure both would be happy to ensure the safe installation of thwarts and seats.

  35. #35

    Default sitting or kneeling

    I have lined the inside of my canoe with good quality sit mat, in fact Karrimat 12mm thick, sticking it down with Evo-stick contact adhesive.

    I have a kneeling thwart in the middle of the boat which takes the weight of my bum and I can move about - one knee up, sit normally or slide right down onto my heels. I also have thigh straps which stop me sliding about. I would dearly love to fit a saddle, but haven't got round to it yet.

    Another benefit of the lined boat is that my dog (or at the time of fitting out - dogs) don't slide about on the bottom of the canoe.

    When paddling double with my wife, I tend to sit more than kneel, unless we're doing a bit of white water, then the lower kneeling position keeps the boat more stable.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by philipoakley View Post
    Why kneel? - because you can't jump out while kneeling.
    You may not be able to jump out, but it's damn easy to fall out. Executing a sharp turn across the current, I leaned out from the boat to dig my paddle in, forgetting that my thigh straps weren't done up, next thing I knew, I was in the water, easy as falling off a log!

  37. #37

    Default As you get older...

    As you get older, you will find that you get more flexible and have more options for paddling positions I do use knee pads in my open but like the idea of pocketed trousers as the straps certainly can be uncomfortable.

    As others have said the beauty of an open boat is that you can keep changing position if you want to. I do have arthritis in my back and that can hurt when kneeling especially if I an not using a seat or kneeling thwart. Fortunately my arthritis is also getting better as I get older so hopefully it will not always be a problem.
    Chris Clarke-Williams

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    Kneel on a 'bell canoe neoprene pad/mat' when it's windy.

    Sit on the seat with knees on the pad

    Seat ht is critical.

    Nick

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    Thumbs up

    you know, I am continually amazed at how much there is to learn on this site - especially for a relative newbie such as myself

    knees hurt on a trip, come home and type 'knees' in to sotp forum search and now I know how to set up a kneeling thwart (how to nearly be killed by one!) that saddles are a great idea but hardly any one seems to make/use them and all manner of interesting pad ideas

    thanks everyone, I am in awe of the knowledge (and wisdom) on here - honest

    cheers
    adrian

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    forgot to include this, for what its worth . . .

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4873935.html
    (its a patent for a convertible carry/kneel thwart seat thingy)

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    I think there is anatomical advantage to kneeling. You tend to keep you spine in line, this also allows a greater range of rotational flexibility...importatnt for those cross deck skills.

    When kneeling there is less chance of "slumping", and you can create a wide based pyramid with knees and feet, keeping the boat stable beneath you.

    I find it difficult to control boat edging skills whilst sat, and it's not easy to balance the boat on it's heel seated either.

    Kneeling - Lots of advantages to skill, balance and injury reduction.

    Sitting is fine for a change, but I would generally rather kneel than sit. I have recenty had ankle surgery and the stretch kneeling demands is not good for the work they have done, so I wear additional support around my ankle.

    I agree that a Kneeling thwart set too low can exaggerate issues with sore feet/ankles. I'm toying with the idea of toe blocks to remidy this.

    As a WWSC provider, and a WW paddler, I cannot see how it is possible to have a KT that is sturdy enough to withstand the rigours of WW paddling to any reasonable grade, yet would break easily enough to reduce risk of a foot entrapment. The use of a well designed quick release KT seems a better option.

    Wilf
    www.kayakcoach.co.uk - Wilf's personal website

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    I'm with Wilf on this. Even on flat water, I usually kneel. I get up and sit on the seat only rarely when I feel the need to move around a bit. The contribution to boat stability that kneeling provides is enormous.

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    I do both depending on what I am up to. If I need power, control, or balance, I kneel, if just messing about I sit. On most rivers around here I know where all the rapids are that I need to kneel in and the rest of the time I use the lazy river express in first class with the extra leg room.

    I have never used knee pads but tried a mat once or twice. Angela like a mat though and they are a good rig in canoes with ribs.
    Lloyd

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  44. #44
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    Has anybody tried a Kneeling Thweat?

    Sort of like a webbing seat, but with the front made longer into a thwart, so you could sit or kneel.

    Best of both worlds, or no good for anything?

    Blutack.
    The Canoeist's prayer: "Lord grant me the serenity to walk the portages I must, The courage to run the rapids I can, And the wisdom to know the difference".

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  45. #45
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    I generally agree with what's been said about the benefits of kneeling. However, having injured my knee last year, I find I am unable to do it for extended periods of time without suffering. Moreover I do find that for much of my paddling, that level of control is just not required as the water is so flat.

    I am now a big fan of the angled seat, which I find works well for both kneeling or sitting. So most of the time I will sit, until I need some extra stability or control, and then kneel.

    I use a camping mat, stuck down in the boat with double sided carpet tape, and also acquired a pair of Blackhawk knee pads which have helped enormously in protecting my bad knee.
    Matto

    Ours was the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.


  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blutack View Post
    Has anybody tried a Kneeling Thweat?

    Sort of like a webbing seat, but with the front made longer into a thwart, so you could sit or kneel.

    Best of both worlds, or no good for anything?

    Blutack.
    Sounds interesting, though I occasionaly sit on my Kneeling Thwart with legs outstretched without any problems.

    My Thwart is 65mm wide and 22mm thick. Ash.
    www.kayakcoach.co.uk - Wilf's personal website

  47. #47
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    Is this the longest running thread now it has been resurected?

    I tend to perch on the kneeling thwart and kneel, but as time progreeses I slide off the thwart and just kneel in the bottom of the boat. The matting I use is fantastically comfortable if a little on the heavy side, that said I paddle more than I carry so I don't mind.

    To enable the highest level of control I kneel on the floor to one side facing slightly outwards with my back to the KN, I have removed the yoke so this doesn't hamper me and allows for easy trimming and movement.
    Leone_blanco

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matto View Post
    I am now a big fan of the angled seat, which I find works well for both kneeling or sitting. So most of the time I will sit, until I need some extra stability or control, and then kneel.
    angled seat - that's what i use, too. most of the time i'm sitting as it's mostly flat water 'round here. although i sort of cross my legs so that the knees are against the hull. that gives some extra contact to the canoe and i find it easier to keep it stable or angle it slightly if necessary. maybe this sounds weird but seems to work for me.
    having the seat at an angle also brings your center of gravity a bit lower than a normal seat which seems to increase stability as well.

    from this position it's also easy to slide into a kneeling position when things get a bit interesting.

    this just evolved after trying different things but seems to suit the kind of paddling i do most of the time.

  49. #49
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    For me I've gotta go with Matto (and lowlander who posted while I was writing this), subtly angled seat all the way. On long days I shuffle and shift my weight around lots to relieve pressure, a seat gives all the options of a kneeling thwart and adds the option of a really comfy place to sit, and somewhere flat to put your sandwich down.

    I really don't understand the popularity of kneeling thwarts, sure if you use a boat for both tandem and solo they're a little lighter than a third seat, but most people I know never paddle tandem, so there are two seats in their boats that are just adding dead weight, take them out. On a recent course (as far as I'm aware everyone was a predominantly solo paddler) my boat was the only one out of around a dozen that didn't have a KT.

    So am I just missing something, why are KTs so popular?

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowlander View Post
    angled seat - that's what i use, too. most of the time i'm sitting as it's mostly flat water 'round here. although i sort of cross my legs so that the knees are against the hull. that gives some extra contact to the canoe and i find it easier to keep it stable or angle it slightly if necessary. maybe this sounds weird but seems to work for me.
    having the seat at an angle also brings your center of gravity a bit lower than a normal seat which seems to increase stability as well.

    from this position it's also easy to slide into a kneeling position when things get a bit interesting.

    this just evolved after trying different things but seems to suit the kind of paddling i do most of the time.
    yup. That's just about sums up what I do too. kneeling seat 'Thweat' gives the best of both worlds

    I really don't understand the popularity of kneeling thwarts, sure if you use a boat for both tandem and solo they're a little lighter than a third seat, but most people I know never paddle tandem, so there are two seats in their boats that are just adding dead weight, take them out. On a recent course (as far as I'm aware everyone was a predominantly solo paddler) my boat was the only one out of around a dozen that didn't have a KT
    I agree kneeling thwarts just look uncomfortable to me... I need something a lot wider and preferably shaped. I've been mulling over taking out the bow and stern seats too, only left them in because they are handy for lashing things to.

    .
    Last edited by Obscured by Clouds; 9th-November-2007 at 11:17 AM.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Redondo View Post
    I agree kneeling thwarts just look uncomfortable to me... I need something a lot wider and preferably shaped. I've been mulling over taking out the bow and stern seats too, only left them in because they are handy for lashing things to.

    .
    I span my boat around, changed the height and angle of the bow seat which was in the ideal place for paddling the boat backwards and replace the old stern seat with a sailing thwart, gives somewhere to attach kit, lets me sail my boat, but what really suprised me is how much stiffer that end of the boat is now, it's really nice not having the boat twist and wobble as it hits a wave. It also saved a bit of weight on my heavy boat.

  52. #52
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    Default Detatchable thwart


    For a quick release thwart I wondered if this would be a feasible option? Construct two more or less standard seat hangers but with small horizontal extensions with two upright pins in each, fitting into two corresponding holes in the underside of each end of the thwart. The weight of the kneeling paddler would keep the thwart in place on the pins but would let it fall free in event of a capsize or pinning.

  53. #53
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    I have both seats and kneeling thwart fitted in my boat (16' quite old Pyranha traveller), and most of the time tend to use the thwart both for kneeling and sitting mainly for trimming reasons. Having read through (most ) of the posts on this thread, I do think that when I do manage to get a smaller solo boat, then this "thweat" idea seems to be the option that i will choose.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by STRAVAIGER View Post

    For a quick release thwart I wondered if this would be a feasible option? Construct two more or less standard seat hangers but with small horizontal extensions with two upright pins in each, fitting into two corresponding holes in the underside of each end of the thwart. The weight of the kneeling paddler would keep the thwart in place on the pins but would let it fall free in event of a capsize or pinning.
    Yes it can be done, both Tenboats & I have posted stuff & pictures of it. It is quite easy. Tenboats provided the inspiration with the elastic through the pin and a sprung toggle to hold it.

  55. #55
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    For kneeling on, try a dutch army sleeping mat cut into appropriate sized strips and evo-stick'd to the hull. They are really comfortable and tough as old boots so they don't wear away quickly.

    i also cut strips to fit the seats and hold them in place with the webbing that comes with the mat.

    There's some here http://www.surplusandadventure.com/i...opscr1705.html

    but if you google around i'm sure you can find them cheaper. i paid £6 for mine from the local surplus store.
    If a man opens his mouth to speak and there is no woman around, is he still wrong?

  56. #56
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    Thanks for the info Phillip. Will search out the relevant posts.

  57. #57
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    Hm - just noticed I haven't posted on this thread although there have been others on kneeling or sitting. So probably repeating myself.

    I prefer to kneel as I find it far more efficient for power, flexibility and control.

    I solo paddle a Bell Yellowstone tandem which unfortunately isn't fitted with a kneeling thwart.

    Solution at present is a saddle made from tightly rolled up bubble wrap which is wrapped in an old Karrimat and then pushed in the stuff sack from my tent.

    It is great for a low kneeling position giving enough support to take the pressure off the knees. Not so good when I want to adopt a higher kneeling position to put some power into the stokes.

    Still in two minds about what to do next - kneeling thwart or centre(ish) seat. The Bell's sloping seat set up is very nice.

    More tempted for the centre seat option as the idea of being able to sit comfortably to have my lunch is more attractive than perching on a thwart.

    Q

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