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Thread: Entrapment - Real or Perceived?

  1. #1
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    Default Entrapment - Real or Perceived?

    Just to satify curiosity... and lifting this from another thread now...

    • Folks who use kneeling thwarts
    • And have taken a swim unintentionally while useing the thwart
    • (this doesnt include playing around and practice stuff)
    Have you ever suffered entrapment?




    I just want to gauge the real risk against perceived possibilities

    Humour me, honest I am harmless, and I wont hold your answers against you in a court of law or anything
    Last edited by Shamus; 15th-October-2008 at 09:52 PM.
    http://www.walk-dartmoor.blogspot.com/


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  2. #2
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    Default Thwart Entrapment

    NO

    Willie
    Inside every adult there is a child wondering, "What Happened!!"]

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  3. #3
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    No need to shout

    http://www.walk-dartmoor.blogspot.com/


    That man is the richest whose pleasures are the cheapest.

  4. #4
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    no

    I have fallen out while on a kneeling thwart quite easily.

    I'm more worried about getting trapped in my usual canoe. Which has a centre seat rear of the yoke.
    'There is no wealth but life itself.'

  5. #5
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    Smile Unexpected swims

    Been over three times unplanned, once on the Washburn weir,once on the Liffey descent, once on the Ardeche S. France. No problems at all, when you know you are going over make sure you get yourself lying forward as the boat turns over and follow Corporal Jones advice " Don't panic"

  6. #6
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    I seem to remember an accident a couple of years ago where someone died from an entrapment, can't remember too many details but I think the boat got pinned and a foot got trapped under a seat or thwart as the boat deformed (might have been on the Eden, but my memory is pretty poor so don't quote me). Having seen boats get pinned and how quickly they can fold around a rock (fortunately without people in them) I carry a pruning saw in my rescue kit just in case.

    I do often trap my foot while capsizing (mostly at work so some may have been intentional swims), mainly I'd guess because I prefer to paddle with my feet jammed under something, but they are only momentarily entrapments as I wear shoes with flexible soles and just have to twist my foot out.

    Kneeling thwarts and seats are much less of an entrapment hazard than poorly chosen footwear.

  7. #7
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    Thanks Saarlak

    Yes there have been entrapment related fatalities. Such incidents will generally be of high profile and folk always remember them, for that person and his family it was a very real risk and not perceived.

    But we could say the same about.... I dont know...... fatalities while cooking in a caravan, how many folk died of carbon monoxide poisoning last year. Of course it is a risk, I just want to find out how 'nearly' real it has been for others. Maybe it isnt at all.

    http://www.walk-dartmoor.blogspot.com/


    That man is the richest whose pleasures are the cheapest.

  8. #8
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    I think the issue with entrapment is more if the boat wraps with you in it, and you end up with your legs trapped, than going for a swim and not being able to get your legs out from under the thwart.

    I've definitely had a few swims when my feet have hooked under a kneeling thwart and I've had to conciously unhook them, but it's never been an issue.

    The one thing I've done with my boat is remove the yoke, mostly that was to give a bigger working area, but a factor was to reduce the likelihood of being trapped between KT and yoke in the event of a wrap. I also have a rescue saw in my kit, but only have it quickly and easily accessible on the very few rivers I paddle that I think warrant it (same goes for the pin kit).
    'Of all the paths you choose in life, make sure some of them are wet'

  9. #9
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    No - simple really. Even when I've surfed the boat sideways onto a rock and been thrown sideways out of the canoe the feet seem to follow my body out!

    As has been said above - the problem is boats wrapping which seems to require lots of water going fast, so don't paddle spate rivers and get pinned!
    You don't stop playing because you get old - you get old because you stop playing.

  10. #10
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    I swim so infrequently I can't remember what the issues are.
























    Thats done it!

  11. #11
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    Other than my foot entrapment last weekend (in a WW spec boat, on flat water, about 6' from the shore, on a foundation safety and rescue course, as an instructor wrong shoes really)

    I've only seen people trapped when the slide forward and trap their thighs under the carrying or other thwart again a cool head and they are out easily, but belive this can get really nasty if coupled with a pin.

    I think these thing are rare, but would hate to be that one in x million

    my feet have been hung up quite a bit in play and surf kayaks but I've always got out in the end
    JD
    He knows not where he's going, For the ocean will decide, It's not the destination, It's the glory of the ride

  12. #12
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    Actually, I’m pretty sure that most entrapment-adventures come from panic and lack off experience. The real dangerous entrapments mostly happen with other features like rocks and trees or when your canoe gets wrapped around or under such features.

    I do WW in a kayak, the fit should be really tight and then you’ll tighten it even further with the modern backrest-ratchets but still it’s not hard to get out off in a hurry when needed.

    It is something you’ll need to practice and get used too, as well with kayaks as canoes, it is not something you can expect to be natural or easy the first time. It’s always very un-natural and confusing to be upside down in water at first and panic is a rather common first reaction, even with people who know what’s going to happen in a controlled environment like a swimming pool.

    I would like to warn against live-vest again, they have far too much buoyancy and can make getting out off a canoe or kayak a lot harder when you’re trapped under it. After you’ve gotten out off it they make any rescue or self-rescue a lot harder still because you’ll be forced into one and one only position. For canoeing you’ll need a PFD, not something like those inflatable crew-savers .

  13. #13
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    I have mentioned this before. A friend was paddling with me on the Exe, at the bottom of one of the long weirs his boat collided with a submerged rock and he had difficulty extricating himself. It was a few minutes before we realised he had his feet stuck and not until we had dragged him off and stopped further down that we realised his boat had squashed somewhat. This was using just the normal seat so I don't think a KT would have been any different.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koen View Post
    ...The real dangerous entrapments mostly happen with other features like rocks and trees or when your canoe gets wrapped around or under such features.

    I do WW in a kayak, the fit should be really tight and then youíll tighten it even further with the modern backrest-ratchets but still itís not hard to get out off in a hurry when needed.
    ....
    Any accident which substantially deforms the hull shape raises the spectre of a really ugly entrapment.

    This is especially true of lightweight low volume kayaks in mid-stream wraps - where in the fold, the hull and deck can meet, and if your legs are in the folded portion, it can easily be fatal.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougR View Post
    Any accident which substantially deforms the hull shape raises the spectre of a really ugly entrapment.

    This is especially true of lightweight low volume kayaks in mid-stream wraps - where in the fold, the hull and deck can meet, and if your legs are in the folded portion, it can easily be fatal.
    Indeed, thou the risks are greatly reduced by the safety-blocks and full-size footplates that almost all modern kayaks feature. Entrapment by deformation is also the biggest risk in the open canoes as Adrian has pointed out.

    Thereís a second serious risk, thou. When you and your boat flow with the stream, itís not giving you any trouble getting out but that changes dramatically when you become stationary in a stream because you get stuck against a stationary object. The shear force off the stream is suddenly coming down at you and can make getting out off any trap youíre in very hard.

  16. #16
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    Just a teensy additional observation:

    If you leave the mounting bolts long and sharp on the underside of thwarts and seats (particularly when they're fitted later) these can catch on shoes or laces or flesh and trap you. They also seem to dig deeper the harder you pull like when you're stuck.

    No problem with kneeling at all, but try to make sure the underside of what you're leaning against is as smooth and snag free as possible. Don't assume that because the bolts are to the sides they won't catch you - you often slide to one side when falling out.

  17. #17
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    no, well, sort of 'no'.

    I did find a very nasty bruise on the back of my calf when in the bath after a swim. Didn't notice much of a problem at the time but as I don't bruise easily I must have had a near miss?

    TB
    If it wasn't for the rain in our lives there would be no rivers. X 2

  18. #18

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    Reading this I find this all a bit worrying.

    This boat wrapping, which I take to mean it is substantially bent by hitting something, and sufficiently so as to potentially trap you in the canoe.
    Please correct if I am mistaken.

    This appears by the posts to be a reasonably common occurence,so I am guessing that this is caused by a very heavy impact?

    Are open canoes really that weak?


    Not that I would ever fit a kneeling thwart as I cannot kneel for more than about 30 secs due to almost immediate cramp.

    GS
    If at first you dont succeed ,pay someone who knows what they are doing

  19. #19
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    In my experience canoes of all sorts, even lightweight Kevlar ones are really strong when hitting things.

    It's when the canoe fills up and the water pressure from the river flow wraps it round an immovable object that the real damage is done, and the boat can fold and trap things. Thankfully I have no first hand experience of this... (touching wood!)

    Like all canoeing, it's a balance. People kneel because it's more stable, so that probably reduces the chance of a swim anyway. My only point was that there are easy things you can do to your boat that could reduce the risk of really bad consequences.

  20. #20
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    Funny you should mention this, we were only talking about this earlier this week. I've only tried a kneeling thwart in the shop (dry land) just to try it for comfort as I had every intention of fitting one at the time.

    As soon as I'd started to wriggle my feet under that thwart I thought "NO WAY HOSAY"!

    So I guess in answer to your question, to me entrapment is more perceived than real but definitely possible nonetheless. I do have kinda big feet mind!

  21. #21
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    id say you are more likely to get seriously injured in town on a friday night
    how many peole have taken a dive and not been trapped is the real question to put it in perspective.
    you are just as likely to trap a foot between two rocks whilst taking a swim.
    have more people been caught undertrees than trapped by a thwart?
    nature is m X-box

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Reading this I find this all a bit worrying.

    This boat wrapping, which I take to mean it is substantially bent by hitting something, and sufficiently so as to potentially trap you in the canoe.
    Please correct if I am mistaken.

    This appears by the posts to be a reasonably common occurrence, so I am guessing that this is caused by a very heavy impact?

    Are open canoes really that weak?...
    Impact is almost irrelevant - hit a mid stream obstruction with the middle of the hull and the water pressure can fold the boat in the twinkling of an eye.

    It was a considerable problem when the standard playboat was a low volume glass/diolen slalom kayak - where the small sectional depth left the hull with relatively little beam strength - any pin called for a quick decision on the "Bail or not?" - seen fatalities at Tombstones ( Mile End Mill / JJs now) and at Shepperton, - seen several near misses.

    Opens are, as a matter of structural design, weaker - but because the legs are not enclosed within the hull are much less likely to produce an entrapment

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    This appears by the posts to be a reasonably common occurence,so I am guessing that this is caused by a very heavy impact?

    Are open canoes really that weak?
    As DougR has said it's not the impact, it's the force caused by the water on one side against a point support on the other. Here are some pics, look away if you are of a nervous disposition:















    In 18 months I've wrapped a boat (on the Barle), luckily without me in it. I've seen a wrapped boat on the Lower Tryweryn, a near wrap (the boat fully flexed, luckily the paddler holding onto it let go and it scooted round the rock) again on the Tryweryn, the resulting boat damage of a wrap on a rock above Bala Mill Falls on the Tryweryn, and a wrapped boat on the Wye below Glasbury. So it isn't a rare occurence, luckily the majority of people get out ok!

    Acutally thinking about it maybe not paddling the Tryweryn is the key... or more likely not paddling anywhere near me
    'Of all the paths you choose in life, make sure some of them are wet'

  24. #24
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    Ask one simple question and it is complete armageddon on the river.... you miserable lot Come on now, somebody must have fallen out of a boat and smiled

    I saw Monkey Pork smile the other day...... (he was sucking a lemon)

    Edited to addd: (in case MP reads this)
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamus View Post
    Come on now, somebody must have fallen out of a boat and smiled


    And I'm smiling here, honest



    And here's a smiley swimmer (ok, I admit it, it was a wwsr and no boats were involved in the production of this photo)

    'Of all the paths you choose in life, make sure some of them are wet'

  26. #26
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    For people who get scared off by these stories; the paddles most at risk are the experienced ones; they paddle the risky waters and take big risks because they think they can. In fact all serious incidents I heard off involved very capable paddlers, thankfully my own worst experiences involved lost boats and paddles but not limbs and lives.

    Most touring-paddlers fall out off their boats before itís flipped over so they hardly ever get under their boats, but if you fancy a try at WW, youíll need some more contact with your boat to stay up in the first place so youíll need to find a way to brace yourself.

    The hardy WW-canoeists strap themselves in their boats. Just as kayakers need to remove their spray-skirt first, the specialist WW-canoeists first have to release their straps before they can get out. Both are tricks youíll need to learn before and keep up every year, itís what we do in the pool-sessions.

  27. #27
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    Hurrah !!!


    Edited to add: that is in response to Amelia's smilie pictures, but could equally apply to Koen's pool session.
    http://www.walk-dartmoor.blogspot.com/


    That man is the richest whose pleasures are the cheapest.

  28. #28
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    Smile river grades

    Shamus,
    Not sure if this helps or no, but it may amuse

    http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/a...ivegrading.htm
    knock it off with them negative waves, Moriarty
    why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?

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